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[Domanese]

I think I need to speak my mind and collect my thoughts. So many people have come here wagging their fingers about IT and so forth. But lets talk about this from the games perspective and try to get inside Shepard's head like we should be.

Shepard is the galaxy's motivation, their best hope. Killing Shepard at the final moment does not get rid of the galaxy's fleets any quicker and will still spur heavy resistance at the highest EMS which potentially could still result in the reapers losing since they'll keep trying.

For them the best way is to dismantle Shepard at this point but turn him or her to their line of thinking. Indoctrination seems to work not just but turning the victim to the reapers line of thinking but having them willingly accept it.

Even if IT wasn't true let's look at this from a role playing stand point.

Control means you have come under the idea that using the reapers technology is needed to undo what has been done. He has come to the conclusions that the reapers should be allowed to live and better the galaxy. This is a betrayal of the Shepard from the past two games whom has been up to this point steadfast in the idea that destroying them is the best route to take.

Synthesis is exactly what the Reapers are about. Merging Organic and Synthetics to create an ultimate and final evolution. By choosing this Shepard has come to agree with the reapers ultimate goal, their final evolution. What is the final evolution from the Reapers viewpoint? Flesh merged with Synthetics. What that truly creates is another Reaper. This is a betrayal of Shepard's motivations through the entire trilogy. You struggled against the reapers and came to the conclusion that their final evolution is your salvation.

Heck every single one of your squad considers that the reapers much be destroyed. Anderson, Hackett, Garrus, Liara, Wrex, Tali, EDI, Legion, James, Ashley, Kaiden, everyone that has stood by your side is counting on you to follow through for them and destroy the Reapers.

This is not just a test of character for Shepard but a test of character for the player. A test to see if they will stay the course no matter what, or will they willingly submit to the reapers. That is the final choice.

[BleedingUranium]

byne wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

byne wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

byne wrote...

Speaking of superheroes, last night I was talking with my friend about superheroes.

I told him I dont consider Batman or Ironman to be superheroes, since they dont have any superpowers.

He disagreed.

I still maintain I am technically correct (the best kind of correct.)

Meh, they each have "super" intelligence.

Thats not a super power though, unless it was caused by like gamma radiation, or a mutation.

They're just smart.

What would they be classified as then? I think if you train enough you can enter that realm of "super". Hawk Eye is only human as well, but he trained and there for "always hits his target" which is basically his super power. Iron Man has the arch reactor and basically augmented his own heart, it's mentioned that it could keep his heart beating for 150 years.

Is it not possible to become "super" with enough standard training and fortitude?

Not in my opinion, no.

If you dont hve super powers, you're just a hero.

Dont get me wrong though, I'm more impressed by Batman and Ironman, because they manage to not be outshone by people with actual super powers, even though they're just regular humans.

If anything not having super powers makes them more interesting as characters.

It isnt like with Super Man who has tons of super powers, and was born to be a hero, these guys worked their way up to it.

Which is why I like them so much, and, in quite the same way, Shepard. Male/Female, Paragon/Renegade, doesn't matter, all Shepards fit this hero role, which is what makes him/her so awesome. Shepard's just a normal person. A very good soldier and leader, but nothing "special" in the superhero sense.

This point is made very clearly in the talk with James when you first go to Purgatory in ME3. And since, as far as I can tell, James is supposed to represent the people new to the series, a character to get them familiar with stuff, it's quite important.

Mass Effect is awesome because, while Shepard is a hero, he's not a "chosen one", there's no prophecy about him and the Reapers, there's no higher powers either helping or hindering him. There's no "destiny" in Mass Effect. He's not Anakin Skywalker, Frodo Baggins, Neo, Harry Potter. He's Shepard.

IT holds true to that, face value endings bring in a few of the above.

[blooregard]

Hmm I remembered somebody mentioned that TIM came in contact with some hardcore indoctrination machine in one of the books and decided to read up on it and noticed something interesting:

Everyone that came in contact with that artifact (Desolas, Saren, and TIM) became pro their species.

Desolas was going on about some kind of "meta Turian", Saren was just said to not like humans in ME1 (if he showed discontent towards any other species I wouldn't know) and TIM founded Cerberus a pro human group.

Perhaps Cerberus IS an idea created by the Reapers

[Legion109]

byne wrote...

Not in my opinion, no.

If you dont hve super powers, you're just a hero.

Dont get me wrong though, I'm more impressed by Batman and Ironman, because they manage to not be outshone by people with actual super powers, even though they're just regular humans.

If anything not having super powers makes them more interesting as characters.

It isnt like with Super Man who has tons of super powers, and was born to be a hero, these guys worked their way up to it.

Hey don't diss Supes, dude had to grow up knowing he was the last of his kind completely alone in the universe in that. (Yes I know about Supergirl & Power Girl but that wasn't until he was Supes) Anyway you should check out Superman
Earth One it's a nice new take on a modern day Supes.   <------ Shameless sales promotion 

[MegumiAzusa]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Oh I don't disagree, mid level, Shepard probably will, and perhaps should, die.

As for TIM, I fully expect him to be explored in sequels, he has pretty much shaped Humanity thus far, why stop with that now?

(having a bit catching up to do)
No, he IS humanity.

[Rosewind]

Do you know what has been bugging me about ME3 just something simple and not related to anything. But at the bit in Vancouver how you fall down the building after the frigate is destroyed femshep does this high pitch scream just seems so out of place don't know why but bugs me every time.

[MegumiAzusa]

byne wrote...

Huh, this isnt really relevant, but I was messing around on the very first mission, and reloaded right as I was first able to play the game.

When it loaded up I had the Avenger at the very start of the Earth level instead of getting at the end.

I mean the Earth level is really easy even on insanity, but still, I guess thats nice to know.

Was that a reimport of a ME3 save where you had the Avenger X?

[MegumiAzusa]

HellishFiend wrote...

blooregard wrote...

Oooh I want to play so lets do the ending at face value:

-in an APC truck stops, get out suicidally run towards a Reaper and teliporter
-Get lasered
-wake up after plot armor is destroyed
-limp over to teliporter and gun down Marauder Shields
-wake up in hallway of dead people connected to the central control panel
-TIM becomes uber psychic 
-TIM an heros
-Anderson dies
-Shepard passes out again
-wake up on magical outside in space room where ReaperBieber is there to greet you
-chose between killing all robots, taking control of galactic invasion fleet, or rewrite all the DNA ever
-pick destroy have a chance of surviving shep's ME2 cause of death
-pick control everything bad leaves
-pick synthesis everyone is some freaky cyborg thing
-very different endings amirite-mass relays explode all the time
-Vrolik's syndrome gets to Joker's backbone
-team mates kidnapped by Joker
-sentinced to forever alone status on gilligan's planet
-tell me another story about the shepard
-anything for you my sweet
-"commander sheard has become a legend! you can build that legend further by more gameplay and purchasing downloadable content!"
-Commander Shepard has murdered everything in some fashion you can see him do more stuff before that happens by giving us more money
end of game. Did I do good

*goes into Pro-IT SubAstris mode*

Wait, how do we know Anderson actually died? Was that ever specifically stated? Screenshots please. Can any pro-ender folk explain to me how Shepard's body is not hanging off the magic elevator when it is clearly too small to contain his entire body? Again, find me some screenshots as proof. 

Sheps hand would be pretty much chopped off as it was hanging over the edge.

[XwebraiderX]

I've come to realize that they can do what they want - if they stick with the Starbrat and the stupid idea to introduce him 2 minutes before the game is over the ending is ruined for me, no matter how much explanations they add. It just remains bad.

The only way for me to get a new point of view on this is if they would implement the IT. Note that I dont like the IT because the fans had to come up with it, there is no way BW had this brilliant idea. But if they would give it a try thats the only way I could change my mind about the ending in a major way because it would be a whole different story.

[MegumiAzusa]

Boradam wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Yep, and that combined with his tone and inflection really lead me to believe that Bioware wanted us to see that TIM was starting to crack a tiny bit. Martin Sheen is an incredible actor, and I know he wouldnt have made his voice sound like that unless he was being told to do so.

Or he knew his character well enough to introduce it on his own. Cause seriously, wow. Martin Sheen is TIM.

"But he couldn't?" you might say. BUT HE CAN!

"What if you can't control the Reaper's, would you risk every life on it?"

"But I can!"

That was by far one of the most dramatic moments for me in the game because it not only let me see the effects that Reaper indoctrination can have (then again we saw it in Saren, and numerous others) and how it can completely twist and change people from their actual ideals.

I felt sad for the Illusive Man, not being able to see the truth at first but slowly coming to realize that he is going against everything he had once stood for in the past. Clever writing, there, despite the possibility of him being a hallucination or dream.

EDIT: Martin Sheen as an excellent actor doesn't begin to cut it for me.

I already felt a bit sorry for TIM in ME2 for some decisions, but in ME3 he is really a tragic person.

[MegumiAzusa]

byne wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

I can honestly say that the implication of TIM's speech/dialog/suicide not being real is my one regret about believing IT. It's one of the most powerful dialogs in the trilogy, IMO. I guess we can still consider it "real" in the fact that it happened in Shepard's head, but I thought it was a great way to wrap up TIM's character. Who knows though, maybe the EC would bring about an even better end for TIM. 

I think keeping TIM alive and trying him for war crimes after the war is over would be better.

To quote Tali: He be a traitor to our people, held up for children as a monster in a cautionary tale.

I don't believe that. TIM is clearly controlled, so trying him for that would only add to suffering he is going through.

[liggy002]

XwebraiderX wrote...

I've come to realize that they can do what they want - if they stick with the Starbrat and the stupid idea to introduce him 2 minutes before the game is over the ending is ruined for me, no matter how much explanations they add. It just remains bad.

The only way for me to get a new point of view on this is if they would implement the IT. Note that I dont like the IT because the fans had to come up with it, there is no way BW had this brilliant idea. But if they would give it a try thats the only way I could change my mind about the ending in a major way because it would be a whole different story.

Yeah, I agree here except that I am fascinated by the IT.  Anything else that they could dish out just wouldn't be any good.

[Rosewind]

XwebraiderX wrote...

I've come to realize that they can do what they want - if they stick with the Starbrat and the stupid idea to introduce him 2 minutes before the game is over the ending is ruined for me, no matter how much explanations they add. It just remains bad.

The only way for me to get a new point of view on this is if they would implement the IT. Note that I dont like the IT because the fans had to come up with it, there is no way BW had this brilliant idea. But if they would give it a try thats the only way I could change my mind about the ending in a major way because it would be a whole different story.

But they did have the idea, they just couldn't get it to work game wise.

[MegumiAzusa]

Rosewind wrote...

XwebraiderX wrote...

I've come to realize that they can do what they want - if they stick with the Starbrat and the stupid idea to introduce him 2 minutes before the game is over the ending is ruined for me, no matter how much explanations they add. It just remains bad.

The only way for me to get a new point of view on this is if they would implement the IT. Note that I dont like the IT because the fans had to come up with it, there is no way BW had this brilliant idea. But if they would give it a try thats the only way I could change my mind about the ending in a major way because it would be a whole different story.

But they did have the idea, they just couldn't get it to work game wise.

That's what they said in November.

[SubAstris]

BatmanTurian wrote...


Hmm, let me get this straight. You're fine with believing that TIM's Reaper implants can indoctrinate and control someone, with very little evidence for it? But you find IT unlikely despite all the possible evidence we discovered?

In all honesty, I don't want to get into a slugging match with you saying "there's lots of evidence for IT" and me saying," there isn't very much at all". It's unproductive. But to answer your point, we know that TIM with Cerberus have been studying the effects of indoctrination. We know that TIM has implants, which are strongly implied to be of Reaper design. We don't know there actual capability until we seen them in action during the Shephard/Anderson/TIM scene, where they appear to have the ability to partly control, even indoctrinate others (which is not strange considering that Reaper tech is know for its indoctrinating properties). Therefore, there really isn't a massive leap in logic that has to be applied IMO

[Stigweird85]

Boradam wrote...

Boradam wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Boradam wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Hey guys, remember that mystery person on the garden planet?(some thinking it maybe Garrus), I just reloaded and replayed the ending selecting destroy, Shepard did not survive(no breath scene) but the interesting thing, no mystery person either, I've gone over it frame by frame in in virtuadub, nothing, nada, not there.

Wait, what mystery person on the garden world?

Please not my sentence, I can only be referring to one world after destroy, the one the Normandy crashed on, I'm in the process of uploading a video, but it's slow on my connection.

Er, I was asking what person was there as I wasn't even aware there was a mystery person who appears in the final scene.

The shape of the face appears to look like a Protheans
(Javik) or a Collectors to me, but I'll let the rest of you decide what
it looks like.

Screenshot:

I can't really see anything there human or otherwise(wall-e perhaps).  Wouldn't it be funny though if that mystery thing was a Yagg and the normany crew had crashed on their homeworld. It could be the set up for ME4 and beyond as now you have to face this new agressive species

[MegumiAzusa]

bigstig wrote...

I can't really see anything there human or otherwise(wall-e perhaps).  Wouldn't it be funny though if that mystery thing was a Yagg and the normany crew had crashed on their homeworld. It could be the set up for ME4 and beyond as now you have to face this new agressive species

It's been already discussed that it's just the squadmate that would come out last in the other endings.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 05 mai 2012 - 10:34 .

[Rosewind]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

XwebraiderX wrote...

I've come to realize that they can do what they want - if they stick with the Starbrat and the stupid idea to introduce him 2 minutes before the game is over the ending is ruined for me, no matter how much explanations they add. It just remains bad.

The only way for me to get a new point of view on this is if they would implement the IT. Note that I dont like the IT because the fans had to come up with it, there is no way BW had this brilliant idea. But if they would give it a try thats the only way I could change my mind about the ending in a major way because it would be a whole different story.

But they did have the idea, they just couldn't get it to work game wise.

That's what they said in November.

He said that they didn't come up with the brilliant idea when they did they said they couldnt implement in game.
Note how i say in game

[Baldsake]

Rosewind wrote...

XwebraiderX wrote...

I've come to realize that they can do what they want - if they stick with the Starbrat and the stupid idea to introduce him 2 minutes before the game is over the ending is ruined for me, no matter how much explanations they add. It just remains bad.

The only way for me to get a new point of view on this is if they would implement the IT. Note that I dont like the IT because the fans had to come up with it, there is no way BW had this brilliant idea. But if they would give it a try thats the only way I could change my mind about the ending in a major way because it would be a whole different story.

But they did have the idea, they just couldn't get it to work game wise.

And how do you know that? BW attitude strongly indicates that they never intended the IT.

[Rosewind]

Baldsake wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

XwebraiderX wrote...

I've come to realize that they can do what they want - if they stick with the Starbrat and the stupid idea to introduce him 2 minutes before the game is over the ending is ruined for me, no matter how much explanations they add. It just remains bad.

The only way for me to get a new point of view on this is if they would implement the IT. Note that I dont like the IT because the fans had to come up with it, there is no way BW had this brilliant idea. But if they would give it a try thats the only way I could change my mind about the ending in a major way because it would be a whole different story.

But they did have the idea, they just couldn't get it to work game wise.

And how do you know that? BW attitude strongly indicates that they never intended the IT.

Because they said it last year.

Edit: put my coment in the wrong spot.

Modifié par Rosewind, 05 mai 2012 - 10:49 .

[estebanus]

BatmanTurian wrote...

for those who care to look, some new (or rather, old) evidence from the books for IT.

Wow, that's a very nice catch!

[Arian Dynas]

Baldsake wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

XwebraiderX wrote...

I've come to realize that they can do what they want - if they stick with the Starbrat and the stupid idea to introduce him 2 minutes before the game is over the ending is ruined for me, no matter how much explanations they add. It just remains bad.

The only way for me to get a new point of view on this is if they would implement the IT. Note that I dont like the IT because the fans had to come up with it, there is no way BW had this brilliant idea. But if they would give it a try thats the only way I could change my mind about the ending in a major way because it would be a whole different story.

But they did have the idea, they just couldn't get it to work game wise.

And how do you know that? BW attitude strongly indicates that they never intended the IT.

You... haven't been reading much at all have you?

[Stigweird85]

DJBare wrote...

This is a cap from that video

okay I can possibly see a turian, if I squint my eyes a little, or it could be a species that has a hammerhead shark appearence. It could also be a salarian - remember Mordins collar - this could be t he the cause of the black T shape in the picture

[Rosewind]

Hey Arian!!!

[Rosewind]

bigstig wrote...

DJBare wrote...

This is a cap from that video

okay I can possibly see a turian, if I squint my eyes a little, or it could be a species that has a hammerhead shark appearence. It could also be a salarian - remember Mordins collar - this could be t he the cause of the black T shape in the picture

I heard it was meant to be Garrus spying on Joker and Edi snogging in the grass lol