57139 réponses à ce sujet

[balance5050]

liggy002 wrote...

Just play the game and provide a screen shot. That will settle it.

ERG. ok 

Modifié par balance5050, 06 mai 2012 - 10:44 .

[liggy002]

DJBare wrote...

blooregard wrote...


Could you show me a part where Hackett sounds like he may be indoctrinated?

How am I supposed to show you something like that?, it's a case of fitting the pieces together, your not supposed to know they are indoctrinated, that's why they are referred as sleeper agents.

This is one piece, when question about the plan to get the crucible to the citadel Hackett is adamant that no matter the cost it must be done www.youtube.com/watch

The fact that he is both a military man AND a scientist, he should not even be sactioning the use of a device they have no knowledge of, even in desperate times.

I think the codex did mention that indoctrinated people were "perfect deep cover agents" or something to that effect.  It makes sense because most people wouldn't suspect Hackett.  Also, I did find it odd when Anderson asked "Why haven't we heard from Admiral Hackett?"  Notice that the game never even bothers to answer that question.

Modifié par liggy002, 06 mai 2012 - 10:46 .

[Cyberfrog81]

blooregard wrote...

Could you show me a part where Hackett sounds like he may be indoctrinated?

He never goes on about co-existing with the Reapers or controlling them, no.

But it's my current belief that the Crucible is part of the "pattern", not an anomaly. And the pattern is, as far as we know, an invention of Star Child / his kind. Having Hackett be so gung-ho about the Crucible is very nearly suspicious.

[liggy002]

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

blooregard wrote...

Could you show me a part where Hackett sounds like he may be indoctrinated?

He never goes on about co-existing with the Reapers or controlling them, no.

But it's my current belief that the Crucible is part of the "pattern", not an anomaly. And the pattern is, as far as we know, an invention of Star Child / his kind. Having Hackett be so gung-ho about the Crucible is very nearly suspicious.

What's also suspicious is that the game makes it a point to make the player aware of the fact that it was Hackett that suggested the Crucible as a solution.  He is repeteadly mentioned in Shepard's conversation with Liara even when we think for a moment that Liara had something to do with it, Hackett's name just pops up.

Modifié par liggy002, 06 mai 2012 - 10:53 .

[balance5050]

Saren was indoctrinated for a specific purpose... What about TIM? Did he have a "specific" purpose as well? Just to be the leader of the "splinter group"? or perhaps more?

[DJBare]

liggy002 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

blooregard wrote...


Could you show me a part where Hackett sounds like he may be indoctrinated?

How am I supposed to show you something like that?, it's a case of fitting the pieces together, your not supposed to know they are indoctrinated, that's why they are referred as sleeper agents.

This is one piece, when question about the plan to get the crucible to the citadel Hackett is adamant that no matter the cost it must be done www.youtube.com/watch

The fact that he is both a military man AND a scientist, he should not even be sactioning the use of a device they have no knowledge of, even in desperate times.

I think the codex did mention that indoctrinated people were "perfect deep cover agents" or something to that effect.  It makes sense because most people wouldn't suspect Hackett.  Also, I did find it odd when Anderson asked "Why haven't we heard from Admiral Hackett?"  Notice that the game never even bothers to answer that question.

Very true, what I'm really trying to get across here is that the crucible could have been a galactic doomsday device for all anyone knew, that's my whole point, no one knew anything about it, how it functioned, what would happen when activated, nothing nada, we went ahead with it in complete ignorance, just as we used the relays and the citadel in complete ignorance until we learned the truth from vigil.

[Simon_Says]

Right. So I'm back. I wanna donate by customary cents.

About Anderson's subtitles. I say it's just the result of different people transcribing character's dialogue differently. It doesn't mean anything, either for or against IT.

Likewise, dreamfoliage is likely just the name of an asset first developed for the dreams, and then incorporated into other levels later. Grissom, the monestary, the finale...

prettz wrote...

this has probably been talk to death but I took some pic of before
and after harbinger beam hits Shepard.




http://i.imgur.com/IR2LR.jpg
this is befor the harbinger beam



i.imgur.com/gjvQA.jpg

and this is after

clue or just added in for effect?

Ah yes, our favourite epileptic trees. This is very, very suggestive. There are more trees after Harbingers beam than before. "But it's easily the result of level designers changing the level but forgetting to add/remove the trees/shrubs." I don't think so. This is something that could be and was easily spotted, and could have been easily removed. What kind of process would result in one version of the level have items removed/added but not the other, otherwise identical level that occurs right after/before it? This would be gross neligence on the level designers' parts. These trees are only seen before in the dreams. Other levels have different trees. Why were there trees before Harbinger's beam? Either the dream started before with the shuttle crash or, y'know, there's a honking great 2-kilometer tall reaper broadcasting Late-Night Indoctrination with Harvey Harbinger on all channels.

prettz wrote...

hear I'll make it wasy and post a pic.  I think this is what being talk aobut

http://i.imgur.com/bK9Vv.jpg

First of all, can someone do an independent confirmation of this? And assuming this is the real deal, again, explain what sort of scenario where the QA guys missed the reflections (easy enough), but so did the level designers? (far less likely)

Also, the electrical wires from the control ending are labeled 'bad'. Why would the people who labelled that object even think there was a 'bad' ending at all, and attribute it to control?



Yes, these could be attributed to imperfect designer practices (i.e. 'laziness'). But I really think it's time to put the burden of support for that claim on the literalists. People here have taken time to pour over the games trying to find odd bits of info that could support IT. Maybe the literalists should be willing to put the same sort of effort into analyzing the evidence and show us inconsistencies and designer laziness in situations where there could be no ambiguity if they're so interested. Even finding them in ME1 or ME2 would suffice. In fact that should probably be encouraged, since I doubt any of us are going to argue that there were nearly as many epileptic trees as has been provoked by ME3.

Otherwise, we've read your posts. Yes, the evidence we found could just point to mistakes on Bioware's part and random coincidence. Now, unless you want to actually back that up with evidence you've found on your own, you're no longer required here.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 06 mai 2012 - 11:05 .

[Rifneno]

DJBare wrote...

Very true, what I'm really trying to get across here is that the crucible could have been a galactic doomsday device for all anyone knew, that's my whole point, no one knew anything about it, how it functioned, what would happen when activated, nothing nada, we went ahead with it in complete ignorance, just as we used the relays and the citadel in complete ignorance until we learned the truth from vigil.

While I agree the Crucible is probably a Reaper trap, I can understand Hackett's position.  This is really the only course of action he has available.  All the military might in the galaxy isn't going to beat the Reapers.  There's no reasonable chance of peace with them.  They aim for total extinction and they cannot be beaten with a big united fleet no matter what anyone says after seeing the full might of the galaxy take a couple tentacles off one capital ship.

[MegumiAzusa]

Simon_Says wrote...

prettz wrote...

hear I'll make it wasy and post a pic.  I think this is what being talk aobut

http://i.imgur.com/bK9Vv.jpg

First of all, can someone do an independent confirmation of this? And assuming this is the real deal, again, explain what sort of scenario where the QA guys missed the reflections (easy enough), but so did the level designers? (far less likely)

The reflections in the area where you're walking are less visible, so it could slipped by the QA guys. But seriously, it doesn't seem likely that something that goes through several iterations is just missed.

[DJBare]

Rifneno wrote...

While I agree the Crucible is probably a Reaper trap, I can understand Hackett's position.  This is really the only course of action he has available.  All the military might in the galaxy isn't going to beat the Reapers.  There's no reasonable chance of peace with them.  They aim for total extinction and they cannot be beaten with a big united fleet no matter what anyone says after seeing the full might of the galaxy take a couple tentacles off one capital ship.

I don't understand his position as far as the crucible is concerned, that's beyond a desperate call when this unknown device could very well be a Reaper device, he does not even question it, and further he permits the incorporation of a reaper heart, we know from experience that reaper tech is dangerous, in all likelyhood it was the reaper heart that indoctrinated TIM judging by the cigarette butts on the floor in the observation booth.

[blooregard]

DJBare wrote...

blooregard wrote...


Could you show me a part where Hackett sounds like he may be indoctrinated?

How am I supposed to show you something like that?, it's a case of fitting the pieces together, your not supposed to know they are indoctrinated, that's why they are referred as sleeper agents.

This is one piece, when question about the plan to get the crucible to the citadel Hackett is adamant that no matter the cost it must be done www.youtube.com/watch

The fact that he is both a military man AND a scientist, he should not even be sactioning the use of a device they have no knowledge of, even in desperate times.

In the same way that Anderson was born in London Hackett likes to bring up the atomic bombs from WWII in damn near every converstion. He even compares the crucible to the A-bombs by saying (paraphrasing) "we still don't know what it does. two centuries ago scientists face the same problem when developing the atomic bomb they thought it could ignite Earth's atmosphere but they used it anyway." (when asked about the crucible at some point. I personally think Coats is the most likely indoctrinated person out of him and Hackett.

As for the "why haven't we heard from Hackett" bit he eventually tells you about the attack on Arcturus Station and how he had to sacrafice the entire second(?) fleet to cover the other retreating fleets and when he does manage to contact you he's using a damaged/out dated method of communication as the message he's sending you is heavily distorted. While at first it seems odd that Hackett didn't call you have to remember he seems to be supreme admiral badass of the alliance (then eventually the galaxy) so he has alot on his plate when the Reapers attacked Arcturus he probably couldn't get the time to send a message to Earth because he was so busy dealing with the Reapers, and retreating to somewhere safe.
Again Shepard's indoctrination IMO is highly likely, Coats is pretty damn possible too but Hackett? No I don't see how Hackett could have ever been indoctrinated him and Anderson are too hell bent on killing the Reapers to be indoctrinated.

[Earthborn_Shepard]

blooregard wrote...

DJBare wrote...

blooregard wrote...


Could you show me a part where Hackett sounds like he may be indoctrinated?

How am I supposed to show you something like that?, it's a case of fitting the pieces together, your not supposed to know they are indoctrinated, that's why they are referred as sleeper agents.

This is one piece, when question about the plan to get the crucible to the citadel Hackett is adamant that no matter the cost it must be done www.youtube.com/watch

The fact that he is both a military man AND a scientist, he should not even be sactioning the use of a device they have no knowledge of, even in desperate times.

In the same way that Anderson was born in London Hackett likes to bring up the atomic bombs from WWII in damn near every converstion. He even compares the crucible to the A-bombs by saying (paraphrasing) "we still don't know what it does. two centuries ago scientists face the same problem when developing the atomic bomb they thought it could ignite Earth's atmosphere but they used it anyway."

yeah, and we know how well that turned out...

[DJBare]

blooregard wrote...
As for the "why haven't we heard from Hackett" bit he eventually tells you about the attack on Arcturus Station and how he had to sacrafice the entire second(?) fleet to cover the other retreating fleets and when he does manage to contact you he's using a damaged/out dated method of communication as the message he's sending you is heavily distorted.

Yes, Hackett tells you.

[Auralius Carolus]

Simon_Says wrote...



http://i.imgur.com/IR2LR.jpg
this is befor the harbinger beam



i.imgur.com/gjvQA.jpg

and this is after

The background fade is a common visual effect during trauma, however, when paired with the trees this is one of the hardest- IMHO- peices of evidence out there.

Both the plants and the fade are from the dreams, of course, but much of the rest is appropriate to the scene. This would suggest that Shepard is at the point where his subconscious and whatever is affecting it, is beginning to merge with his conscious perception.

This is fitting given the Indoc. Theory. With exceptions to bugs, there aren't many explanations as to how the extra props get there. They are clearly statically placed and would most likely be intentionally inserted by the design team.

[Leafs43]

There is too much evidence in favor of the indoctrination theory for it all to be a coincidence.

[MaximizedAction]

DJBare wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

While I agree the Crucible is probably a Reaper trap, I can understand Hackett's position.  This is really the only course of action he has available.  All the military might in the galaxy isn't going to beat the Reapers.  There's no reasonable chance of peace with them.  They aim for total extinction and they cannot be beaten with a big united fleet no matter what anyone says after seeing the full might of the galaxy take a couple tentacles off one capital ship.

I don't understand his position as far as the crucible is concerned, that's beyond a desperate call when this unknown device could very well be a Reaper device, he does not even question it, and further he permits the incorporation of a reaper heart, we know from experience that reaper tech is dangerous, in all likelyhood it was the reaper heart that indoctrinated TIM judging by the cigarette butts on the floor in the observation booth.

Considering that Hackett is an admiral who can't show doubt and indicision out loud too much, where would you draw the line between desperation and possible indoctrination if you were the one to write his character's lines?

How would you include his doubt as a commanding officer who can't really let his soldiers doubt him too much or risk your credibility and influence on them?

For me it's too hard to say whether his doubtlessness is by his own will or unintentional (and thus him being under indoc. influence)

[DJBare]

MaximizedAction wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

While I agree the Crucible is probably a Reaper trap, I can understand Hackett's position.  This is really the only course of action he has available.  All the military might in the galaxy isn't going to beat the Reapers.  There's no reasonable chance of peace with them.  They aim for total extinction and they cannot be beaten with a big united fleet no matter what anyone says after seeing the full might of the galaxy take a couple tentacles off one capital ship.

I don't understand his position as far as the crucible is concerned, that's beyond a desperate call when this unknown device could very well be a Reaper device, he does not even question it, and further he permits the incorporation of a reaper heart, we know from experience that reaper tech is dangerous, in all likelyhood it was the reaper heart that indoctrinated TIM judging by the cigarette butts on the floor in the observation booth.

Considering that Hackett is an admiral who can't show doubt and indicision out loud too much, where would you draw the line between desperation and possible indoctrination if you were the one to write his character's lines?

How would you include his doubt as a commanding officer who can't really let his soldiers doubt him too much or risk your credibility and influence on them?

For me it's too hard to say whether his doubtlessness is by his own will or unintentional (and thus him being under indoc. influence)

I would not rewrite it because it's perfect, indoctrination works best when the victims goals match that of the reapers, Hacketts goal is to stop the reapers, now if we consider the crucible is a reaper trap, then those goals match, Hackett wants to get the crucible to the citadel, the reapers want to get the crucible to the citadel.

[HellishFiend]

liggy002 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

blooregard wrote...


Could you show me a part where Hackett sounds like he may be indoctrinated?

How am I supposed to show you something like that?, it's a case of fitting the pieces together, your not supposed to know they are indoctrinated, that's why they are referred as sleeper agents.

This is one piece, when question about the plan to get the crucible to the citadel Hackett is adamant that no matter the cost it must be done www.youtube.com/watch

The fact that he is both a military man AND a scientist, he should not even be sactioning the use of a device they have no knowledge of, even in desperate times.

I think the codex did mention that indoctrinated people were "perfect deep cover agents" or something to that effect.  It makes sense because most people wouldn't suspect Hackett.  Also, I did find it odd when Anderson asked "Why haven't we heard from Admiral Hackett?"  Notice that the game never even bothers to answer that question.

Not to mention it just seems a waste of the entire indoctrination setup to not have it come into play within the allied forces. Obviously IT fixes that problem, but I think it would also be cool to have one of our allies turn out to have been an indoctrinated agent. 

[Nauks]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

You know, I could buy Hackett being indoctrinated. He's the leader of the Alliance after all.

I don't think it's possible though, because if he was, the Reapers would probably stop him from producing the Crucible, or at the very least doing some sort of sabotage for the Earth counterattack.. but who knows, maybe there's a bigger picture here.

Dunno about Hackett being indoctrinated either.
But for my money, there's no way the Crucible is legit, from reading what people have suggested in here.
If it's not a Reaper trap of some kind, the leaps of logic from the writers are worrying, to say the least.

There's no way it could have been built without indoctrinated agents sabotaging it (or gone unnoticed cycle after cycle), and meanwhile, the Reapers are seemingly letting us use the Citadel and relays to get it done.
When they decided they wanted the Citadel near the end, they simply up and grab it, if they truly didn't want us meddling, they'd have sent a couple of Capitals over there and shut em all down ala Sovereign.

Furthermore, why didn't the Reapers move the damn Sol relay so the victory fleet (or whoever) couldn't get to Earth, if they can lug around the Citadel, surely they could place the Sol relay at the galactic core or w/e.

[Rifneno]

DJBare wrote...

I don't understand his position as far as the crucible is concerned, that's beyond a desperate call when this unknown device could very well be a Reaper device, he does not even question it, and further he permits the incorporation of a reaper heart, we know from experience that reaper tech is dangerous, in all likelyhood it was the reaper heart that indoctrinated TIM judging by the cigarette butts on the floor in the observation booth.

TIM has been "kind of" indoctrinated since the First Contact War. Like Rana Thanopsis, he lost it when the Reapers began invading.
Again, the Crucible is the only option available to Hackett that I can see. What else is he supposed to do?

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

yeah, and we know how well that turned out...

Way the hell better than the alternative?

[MaximizedAction]

DJBare wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

While I agree the Crucible is probably a Reaper trap, I can understand Hackett's position.  This is really the only course of action he has available.  All the military might in the galaxy isn't going to beat the Reapers.  There's no reasonable chance of peace with them.  They aim for total extinction and they cannot be beaten with a big united fleet no matter what anyone says after seeing the full might of the galaxy take a couple tentacles off one capital ship.

I don't understand his position as far as the crucible is concerned, that's beyond a desperate call when this unknown device could very well be a Reaper device, he does not even question it, and further he permits the incorporation of a reaper heart, we know from experience that reaper tech is dangerous, in all likelyhood it was the reaper heart that indoctrinated TIM judging by the cigarette butts on the floor in the observation booth.

Considering that Hackett is an admiral who can't show doubt and indicision out loud too much, where would you draw the line between desperation and possible indoctrination if you were the one to write his character's lines?

How would you include his doubt as a commanding officer who can't really let his soldiers doubt him too much or risk your credibility and influence on them?

For me it's too hard to say whether his doubtlessness is by his own will or unintentional (and thus him being under indoc. influence)

I would not rewrite it because it's perfect, indoctrination works best when the victims goals match that of the reapers, Hacketts goal is to stop the reapers, now if we consider the crucible is a reaper trap, then those goals match, Hackett wants to get the crucible to the citadel, the reapers want to get the crucible to the citadel.

Yes, I agree. As it stands, Hackett is exactly doing what seems to be what the Reapers want, if they put the Citadel right in front of the fleet:
"Oh, you have that super weapon against us?
Ohhh nooo, and here silly us put the Catalyst right where you were planning to go from the start, Earth. Then you better not reach the only way to get on the Citadel...better put one Reaper to protect it!
Ohhh nooo, you reached the beam...should've placed two Marauders, hihilol".

It's like the Deathstar having a hallway leading directly to the only vulnerably spot on the whole thing and no one's protecting it...hm...bad example.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 07 mai 2012 - 12:13 .

[liggy002]

Rifneno wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Very true, what I'm really trying to get across here is that the crucible could have been a galactic doomsday device for all anyone knew, that's my whole point, no one knew anything about it, how it functioned, what would happen when activated, nothing nada, we went ahead with it in complete ignorance, just as we used the relays and the citadel in complete ignorance until we learned the truth from vigil.

While I agree the Crucible is probably a Reaper trap, I can understand Hackett's position.  This is really the only course of action he has available.  All the military might in the galaxy isn't going to beat the Reapers.  There's no reasonable chance of peace with them.  They aim for total extinction and they cannot be beaten with a big united fleet no matter what anyone says after seeing the full might of the galaxy take a couple tentacles off one capital ship.

Remember that this is what Hackett SAYS but Vigil implies differently.  Remember the conversation we had with Vigil in which the Reapers either destroyed or deactivated the Mass Relays during the Prothean cycle?  They did this because they feared that the combined Miliatary might of the time could defeat them.  This just goes to show you that Hacket's assertion is disingenuous.

[paxxton]

liggy002 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

On the Admiral Anderson: I worked on a free commercial game and I now work on a commercial game and I can tell you this when it comes to subtitles. They will be automated. If they were automated for me on a free commercial, then so too will they be automated for Bioware. So, the question is, why manually change the subtitles at the last minute? Why take that extra step and add on extra work unless you were trying to convey something?

Nah, debunked by paxxton. Apparently he's admiral anderson at the missile batteries briefly.

Really! was there a screenshot?

Ask him  Odd thing to make up though

This is the same person that thought the black wavy lines at the ending was a cloud of nanites. I would just like to see it myself is all.

Just play the game and provide a screen shot. That will settle it.

OK, it seems I made a mistake. I checked it on 2 different playthroughs and Anderson is referred to as Anderson near the Thanix missle launchers.

[Rifneno]

liggy002 wrote...

Remember that this is what Hackett SAYS but Vigil implies differently.  Remember the conversation we had with Vigil in which the Reapers either destroyed or deactivated the Mass Relays during the Prothean cycle?  They did this because they feared that the combined Miliatary might of the time could defeat them.  This just goes to show you that Hacket's assertion is disingenuous.

Oh goddamnit, are we seriously going through this again?  Okay, math.  10,000 capital ships.  That's a conservative estimate, it could be many times that.  Way the hell more destroyers.  It takes 4 dreadnoughts to bring down one, ONE capital ship.  The conventional victory wasn't happening.  Ever.  It's not even remotely possible.  Not a one in a trillion chance.  Absolute zero.

[bredmo]

About this whole reaper trap crucible idea, Harbinger has been trying very hard to get a hold of Shepard, and what a better way than to bottleneck him through the 1 path to the citadel and therefore victory against the reapers. Harbinger had Shepard right where he wanted him, a close up confrontation