57139 réponses à ce sujet

[blooregard]

I noticed somebody forgot "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL"

[MegumiAzusa]

For Harbies quotes:

[Salient Archer]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Ch1m3Ra wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

Fingertrip wrote...

paxxton wrote...

I was just replaying the beginning of ME2. If Harbinger wants Shepard alive, why kill him then? Or did he make up his mind later on?

I think there's a quote where he specifically say that keeping Shepard is quite crucial, if possible. You know, they're going to find another way of harvesting the galaxy, it might take abit longer- and they might take a few losses, which they'd probably would like to avoid.

“Preserve Shepard's body if possible.”
“Neutralize Commander Shepard.”
“If I must tear you apart, Shepard, I will.”
You cannot escape your destiny, Shepard.”
“Why do you resist us, Shepard?”

You can say that the Reapers killed Shepard so he won't be able to interfere with their plans. They may have killed him to take "revenge" for killing Sovereign. Once Shepard gets revived the Reapers begin to get interested in Shepard, not wanting to kill as they may not have seen someone like him before.

"Leave the dead where they fall."
"The dead are useless."
"Ignore the fallen."
The interesting thing here is:
“Preserve Shepard's body if possible.”
"Stop Shepard."
"Focus on Shepard."
"Neutralize Commander Shepard."

"You do no yet comprehend your place in things."

They seem to have an interest in Shepards body, but don't care if she is still alive, as opposed to ignoring any other fallen. Also Harbinger says Shep has a special place, with TIM being indoctrinated it could mean a reconstructed Shep could actually be of benefit to the Reapers.
Also note Cerberus is working with the collectors as stated by sources like Vega (okay he is sketchy but I would take his word in this case) meaning the Collectors contracting the Shadow Broker to get Sheps body could be part of the plot where TIM tries to show only the good side of Cerberus (like stuffing the Normandy crew with friendly faces)

I completely agree with your chain of thought

That's exactly where my thinking has been going lately, especially since re-reading the comics and novels.

[Ch1m3Ra]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Ch1m3Ra wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

Fingertrip wrote...

paxxton wrote...

I was just replaying the beginning of ME2. If Harbinger wants Shepard alive, why kill him then? Or did he make up his mind later on?

I think there's a quote where he specifically say that keeping Shepard is quite crucial, if possible. You know, they're going to find another way of harvesting the galaxy, it might take abit longer- and they might take a few losses, which they'd probably would like to avoid.

“Preserve Shepard's body if possible.”
“Neutralize Commander Shepard.”
“If I must tear you apart, Shepard, I will.”
You cannot escape your destiny, Shepard.”
“Why do you resist us, Shepard?”

You can say that the Reapers killed Shepard so he won't be able to interfere with their plans. They may have killed him to take "revenge" for killing Sovereign. Once Shepard gets revived the Reapers begin to get interested in Shepard, not wanting to kill as they may not have seen someone like him before.

"Leave the dead where they fall."
"The dead are useless."
"Ignore the fallen."
The interesting thing here is:
“Preserve Shepard's body if possible.”
"Stop Shepard."
"Focus on Shepard."
"Neutralize Commander Shepard."

"You do no yet comprehend your place in things."

They seem to have an interest in Shepards body, but don't care if she is still alive, as opposed to ignoring any other fallen. Also Harbinger says Shep has a special place, with TIM being indoctrinated it could mean a reconstructed Shep could actually be of benefit to the Reapers.
Also note Cerberus is working with the collectors as stated by sources like Vega (okay he is sketchy but I would take his word in this case) meaning the Collectors contracting the Shadow Broker to get Sheps body could be part of the plot where TIM tries to show only the good side of Cerberus (like stuffing the Normandy crew with friendly faces)

Right right. I entirely forgotten about Mass Effect: Retribution. So they didn't kill Shepard for nothing, they were still interested in him; dead or alive.

[Stigweird85]

blooregard wrote...

I noticed somebody forgot "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL"

In my mind this is the biggest clue towards the indoctrination theory.

In Mass Effect, Soverign takes control of Saren
In Mass Effect 2, Harbringer controls the collectors

Why in Mass Effect 3 is this technique not used? Okay they convert the native species to husks to aid their efforts but they don't actively control them.

Also if the Reapers create a reaper per cycle and it takes the form of the species that made it, where is the Krogan, Asari and Turian reaper ships?

[Rosewind]

bigstig wrote...

blooregard wrote...

I noticed somebody forgot "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL"

In my mind this is the biggest clue towards the indoctrination theory.

In Mass Effect, Soverign takes control of Saren
In Mass Effect 2, Harbringer controls the collectors

Why in Mass Effect 3 is this technique not used? Okay they convert the native species to husks to aid their efforts but they don't actively control them.

Also if the Reapers create a reaper per cycle and it takes the form of the species that made it, where is the Krogan, Asari and Turian reaper ships?

Because they been focusing on the humans first.

[Stigweird85]

Rosewind wrote...

bigstig wrote...

blooregard wrote...

I noticed somebody forgot "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL"

In my mind this is the biggest clue towards the indoctrination theory.

In Mass Effect, Soverign takes control of Saren
In Mass Effect 2, Harbringer controls the collectors

Why in Mass Effect 3 is this technique not used? Okay they convert the native species to husks to aid their efforts but they don't actively control them.

Also if the Reapers create a reaper per cycle and it takes the form of the species that made it, where is the Krogan, Asari and Turian reaper ships?

Because they been focusing on the humans first.

True, but in the space of 2 years they started to create a humanreaper after harvesting small colonies outside council space. With a full fledge invasion and capture of several planets with much larger populations they must have started building others? Otherwise why bother harvesting them at all

[prettz]

hear a vid of vent boy don't think it can be to helpfule for Indoctrination Theory but it give a new perspective.
www.youtube.com/watch

hears a vid of the tree refections at the end of the game.
youtu.be/rTopy1amQRc

[Stigweird85]

I suspect that this board is mostly used by people in North America as the pace seems to drop dramatically at certain points in the day which is a shame all the really good conversation seems to happen when I'm asleep

[Ch1m3Ra]

bigstig wrote...

I suspect that this board is mostly used by people in North America as the pace seems to drop dramatically at certain points in the day which is a shame all the really good conversation seems to happen when I'm asleep

Yup. Same for me. 12AM here right now.

[Tirian Thorn]

bigstig wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

bigstig wrote...

blooregard wrote...

I noticed somebody forgot "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL"

In my mind this is the biggest clue towards the indoctrination theory.

In Mass Effect, Soverign takes control of Saren
In Mass Effect 2, Harbringer controls the collectors

Why in Mass Effect 3 is this technique not used? Okay they convert the native species to husks to aid their efforts but they don't actively control them.

Also if the Reapers create a reaper per cycle and it takes the form of the species that made it, where is the Krogan, Asari and Turian reaper ships?

Because they been focusing on the humans first.

True, but in the space of 2 years they started to create a humanreaper after harvesting small colonies outside council space. With a full fledge invasion and capture of several planets with much larger populations they must have started building others? Otherwise why bother harvesting them at all

I wish I could find it where Byne listed Harbinger's assessment of the other races and why only humans were considered viable for "reaper-izing" 

But basically it was said that:

Asarii - reproduction that requires aliens - not genetically worthy.
Salarians - short life span - not worthy
Krogan - sterile - not worthy  (if you cured the genophage the reaper assesment might change)
Turians - primitive
Quarians - weak immune system - not worthy
Humans - genetically diverse, biotic potential, etc. 

[Tirian Thorn]

byne wrote...

Harbinger never claimed why, and seemed to have a more malicious reason for doing it, with quotes like:

- "Take what is useful, destroy the rest"
- "Progress cannot be halted"
- "Your worlds will become our laboratories.

Plus his comments on the different races of the galaxy:

- "Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating."
- "Drell; useless, insufficient numbers."
- "Human; viable possibility, aggression factor useful if controlled"
- "Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness."
- "Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure."
- "Human; viable possibility, impressive genetic malleability."
- "Geth; an annoyance, limited utility."
- "Human; viable possibility, impressive technical potential"
- "Human; viable possibility, if emotional drives are subjugated."
- "Human; viable possibility, great biotic potential."
- "Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted."
- "Turian; you are considered...too primitive."


Harby's thoughts about all the different races really dont make much sense if the Reapers' entire goal is to preserve organic life.

Also, if synthetics are such a danger, why are the geth only an 'annoyance'?

If preserving organics is the Reapers' main goal, why were cybernetic implants seen as something that worked in the quarians' favor?

And the Turians are too primitive to harvest apparently, yet godchild claims they leave the races that are too primitive alone.

Guess that whole Palaven thing is just a big misunderstanding.

No matter how you look at it, godchild's reasoning doesnt fit with Sovereign or Harbinger's reasoning.

Found Byne's post regarding the various races. 

http://social.biowar...ex/9727423/2027

[EpyonX3]

prettz wrote...

hear a vid of vent boy don't think it can be to helpfule for Indoctrination Theory but it give a new perspective.
www.youtube.com/watch

hears a vid of the tree refections at the end of the game.
youtu.be/rTopy1amQRc

I did fly cam on the boy too. He actually appears behind the wall you pass by on the way out that you took.

[whateverman7]

bigstig wrote...

The mass effect trilogy was always touted as Shepard's story however they also made it clear that it is not the only story. The cynic in me agrees that EA(or anyone) would want a cash cow to die but I would love to play more in the ME series. Mass Effect is often compared to Star Wars so look at the volume of stories and games connected to the series but not to main characters. Yes some are better than others but it shows just what level of expansion can be achieved

that's what i meant...i wasnt talking about mass effect as a whole, i was talking about shepard....this was touted as shepard's last story, his last game as the lead.....i think during development, they changed their mind about that, but the marketing was already in motion....think me4 is coming and it will have shepard as the lead....cause as big as the ME universe may be, gamers assoicate ME with shepard....

about keeping your saves: true, they can use your saves to tell stories about other parts of the ME universe, but that's not gonna work....cause all your saves are based what you did as shepard, which is only going to make gamers play as shepard....

[Stigweird85]

whateverman7 wrote...

bigstig wrote...

The mass effect trilogy was always touted as Shepard's story however they also made it clear that it is not the only story. The cynic in me agrees that EA(or anyone) would want a cash cow to die but I would love to play more in the ME series. Mass Effect is often compared to Star Wars so look at the volume of stories and games connected to the series but not to main characters. Yes some are better than others but it shows just what level of expansion can be achieved

about keeping your saves: true, they can use your saves to tell stories about other parts of the ME universe, but that's not gonna work....cause all your saves are based what you did as shepard, which is only going to make gamers play as she
pard....

 they also said to keep your DA:O save which had next to zero impact on DA:2 other than a few comments or reoccurrin characters  

[SubAstris]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

SubAstris never has a point.

Post of the day.

What a thorough refutation of my point... Oh wait...

You mean like you post deep and insightful counterpoint to IT...oh wait

You asked for my reply on couple things which I posted two pages back a few hours ago, still not seeing your reply...bet you dident watch the vid I have linked you twice either...

Yeah because I don't have time, I have just been popping in and out of this forum

[Rosewind]

I AM THE QUEEN OF THE HARPIES!!! *prances around*

[Aanlen]

Also Legion said that the geth were "outside their plans". How can the geth be outside their plans, when destroying organics to halt the developement of of synthetics is the whole goddamn point to the reapers existance, according to SpaceBieber?

Modifié par Aanlen, 07 mai 2012 - 04:50 .

[paxxton]

Modifié par paxxton, 07 mai 2012 - 07:02 .

[MaximizedAction]

Rosewind wrote...

I AM THE QUEEN OF THE HARPIES!!! *prances around*

This isn't a real queen...

[SubAstris]

Uncle Jo wrote...

SubAstris wrote...


I don't have time to respond fully and watch that video, but I will respond to your comments. The problem I see with you saying that is that Shepard's allies only want to destroy the Reapers before the choices. They see it as the only feasible way of ending the Reaper threat. This all changes however when the Catalyst comes into play and other options become available, that is control and synthesis aswell as destroy. We don't know how others would react when other options are on the table.

If that is the case, then Shepard being resurrected after falling from planetary re-entry is also impossible. Ergo, 95% of ME2 and all of ME3 is fake.

I know all about foreshadowing, however there is no clear evidence that it is foreshadowing IT here and not just reusing the common cliche of the "best way is not always the easy way".

How do you know this? It has already been stated by BW that all plot important characters on the Citadel survived, they must have survived the explosion aswell. Why not Shepard?

Let's take the ending at face-value one sec (but just one 'kay ?)...
All of what's following has been said more than once in this thread, but I don't think you read it or you're deliberately ignoring it since you always come with the same (weak) arguments..

1. If you chose Control and assuming you're crazy enough to think you're being able to control a millions years old and incredibly intelligent AI, you're not ending the cycle and the threat still remains. Furthermore you're switching sides thus betraying your own convictions and backstabbing your Allies... I don't think they would be very happy with that...

In the case of Synthesis (admitting you still don't know after dozens of hours of playing ME that's exactly the ultimate goal of the Reapers and that jumping into a energy beam is enough to make it happens) you're going to turn every single living thing in the Galaxy into a cyborg/husk without their consent.
I can reasonably suppose that you'll be, by far, the most hated being in the long, long history of the Universe...

So don't you think that Destroy still remains the best or the at least the less bad option even for your allies ?

2. Yes, the resurrection of Shep seems pretty much impossible (with the actual scientific knowledge though). But at least he re-entries the atmosphere with his armor, helmet and shields on. It's also said (and seen) that his brains remained intact along with parts of his body, so with the necessary part of suspension of disbelief, we can easily consider it possible without our mind going BSOD...

3. When are you going to understand that IT is a THEORY with its hints, clues, probabilites and as long as Bioware don't officially dismiss it, it still remains plausible/possible ? That nothing till then can be 100 % proven true or false ?

4.Why Shep can't survive on the Citadel ? Maybe because he took the tank explosion in his/her face at point-blank range without armor, shields, helmet, whatsoever  (I won't speak about the second one and so on) ? Even the Starbrat disappeared, so no space magical protection. Perhaps the other characters in the Citadel could survive, but no way in hell he/she did...

And so I will respond to your same, over-used counterpoints:

1) We have been told by the Catalyst that control is possible, albeit not completely without risk. Once given the ability to control, if there arises a conflict between organics and synthetics again, the rogue AI can be destroyed by the Reapers. Furthermore, you forget to realise that destroy would continue the cycles, and it continues without getting to use any of the Reaper's advanced tech. You are not really backstabbing your allies by ending the threat to their existence, the threat of annihilation by the Reapers, which they all want. This threat no longer exists because Shepard controls the Reapers. Backstabbing would be to kill your allies, such as the Geth, despite options to save them.

The Synthesis option is very controversial I agree. It would depend on who you talked to as far as whether they hated you. Some would because of the lack of free will and input on the decisions. However others would realise that it was a necessary decision to end the biggest threat known to the galaxy; "the best way is not always the easy way".

IMO, as of now, I am leaning more towards Control as the best option, followed by Destroy and Synthesis.

2) All I can say is that shields are not designed for planetary re-entry. The whole resurrection scene shatters suspension of disbelief as much as synthesis does.

3) Just because something cannot be disproved does not make it plausible. Common example, I can't disprove that there are fairies at the bottom of my garden, but it is implausible that there are some. Of course, these are my views.

4) I must remind you that BW has said that "ALL plot important people survive". Doesn't Shepard constitute plot important?

[aquaur]

Been a lurker for a while in this thread, but I'm missing a lot of content (this thread is moving so fast) so I may repeat something that has been already told.

I find it hard to discard the James quote: "do you hear that hum" considering that in mass effect 1 a similar line was used to foreshadow the ending of the game.

When you go in the presidium in the first game with different character you can get their personnal comment about things around. When you get to the mass relay monument near the presidium tower Kaidan says:  "Anyone else hear that low hum? Sounds like it's coming from that statue. Makes my teeth tingle." That single line foreshadow that indeed the relay is active and will be used at the end.

Can't find a youtube video but here's a link to the dialogue:
http://masseffect.wi...Unique_dialogue 

This may indeed being grasping straws, the point is not making this a proof or anything. My point is we should keep in mind that bioware gave away a big clue in a single line of dialogue before, I really doubt we can take random conversation so lightly and say it is just a coincidence. They did something similar on purpose in the first one, why not doing it again in ME3?

[SubAstris]

aquaur wrote...

Been a lurker for a while in this thread, but I'm missing a lot of content (this thread is moving so fast) so I may repeat something that has been already told.

I find it hard to discard the James quote: "do you hear that hum" considering that in mass effect 1 a similar line was used to foreshadow the ending of the game.

When you go in the presidium in the first game with different character you can get their personnal comment about things around. When you get to the mass relay monument near the presidium tower Kaidan says:  "Anyone else hear that low hum? Sounds like it's coming from that statue. Makes my teeth tingle." That single line foreshadow that indeed the relay is active and will be used at the end.

Can't find a youtube video but here's a link to the dialogue:
http://masseffect.wi...Unique_dialogue 

This may indeed being grasping straws, the point is not making this a proof or anything. My point is we should keep in mind that bioware gave away a big clue in a single line of dialogue before, I really doubt we can take random conversation so lightly and say it is just a coincidence. They did something similar on purpose in the first one, why not doing it again in ME3?

Possibly, but what exactly would it show? James is indoctrinated, or Shepard? And I must note that there is indeed a hum there

[balance5050]

aquaur wrote...

Been a lurker for a while in this thread, but I'm missing a lot of content (this thread is moving so fast) so I may repeat something that has been already told.

I find it hard to discard the James quote: "do you hear that hum" considering that in mass effect 1 a similar line was used to foreshadow the ending of the game.

When you go in the presidium in the first game with different character you can get their personnal comment about things around. When you get to the mass relay monument near the presidium tower Kaidan says:  "Anyone else hear that low hum? Sounds like it's coming from that statue. Makes my teeth tingle." That single line foreshadow that indeed the relay is active and will be used at the end.

Can't find a youtube video but here's a link to the dialogue:
http://masseffect.wi...Unique_dialogue 

This may indeed being grasping straws, the point is not making this a proof or anything. My point is we should keep in mind that bioware gave away a big clue in a single line of dialogue before, I really doubt we can take random conversation so lightly and say it is just a coincidence. They did something similar on purpose in the first one, why not doing it again in ME3?

This is simply it. How many times has indoctrination been forshadowed in the series and in ME3 alone? About 1000x more then anything we see in the face value ending.

If Bioware is was forshadowing anything it was I.T.

[Rifneno]

Tirian Thorn wrote...

I wish I could find it where Byne listed Harbinger's assessment of the other races and why only humans were considered viable for "reaper-izing"

But basically it was said that:

Asarii - reproduction that requires aliens - not genetically worthy.
Salarians - short life span - not worthy
Krogan - sterile - not worthy (if you cured the genophage the reaper assesment might change)
Turians - primitive
Quarians - weak immune system - not worthy
Humans - genetically diverse, biotic potential, etc.

Which further illustrates why I think it's silly to believe the Reapers started building a Prothean Reaper but got halfway through and said "Opps, incompatible DNA. Oh well, trash it." They put serious thought into their horrifying crimes against nature.

bigstig wrote...

they also said to keep your DA:O save which had next to zero impact on DA:2 other than a few comments or reoccurrin characters

To be fair, the ME and DA teams are different people even if they are all Bioware. And the DA team has thoroughly dismissed the claim of "players getting to make choices that have any impact on anything".

Aanlen wrote...

Also Legion said that the geth were "outside their plans". How can the geth be outside their plans, when destroying organics to halt the developement of of synthetics is the whole goddamn point to the reapers existance, according to SpaceBieber?

You know, if we ever got a chance to talk to the heretic geth it'd be fun to ask them what the hell they think happened to all the other synthetic races that the Reapers have encountered over the millions of years. None of them seem to be around, oddly enough.