57139 réponses à ce sujet

[monrapias]

Something to look at while we wait

[Earthborn_Shepard]

F*ck that surprise Shepard scared me

[MaximizedAction]

Can't blame Femshep...

[paxxton]

My custom Shepard is a nasty Renegade this time.

Modifié par paxxton, 07 mai 2012 - 06:44 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

SubAstris wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

SubAstris never has a point.

Post of the day.

What a thorough refutation of my point... Oh wait...

You mean like you post deep and insightful counterpoint to IT...oh wait

You asked for my reply on couple things which I posted two pages back a few hours ago, still not seeing your reply...bet you dident watch the vid I have linked you twice either...

Yeah because I don't have time, I have just been popping in and out of this forum

So let me get this straight. You...

1: Challenge us to defend our views, but dont reply when we do so?
2: Rarely defend your own claims or dismiss them in ways which cannot be backed up (the Bioware was lazy claim) or simply say it has nothing to do with IT without explaining why.

And you still expect to be taken seriusly?

[Tirian Thorn]

monrapias wrote...

Something to look at while we wait

*snip

THAT WAS AWESOME!!  Love it! 

[Cyberfrog81]

bigstig wrote...

If IT proves to be true, or even if it doesn't but there is more than the literal endings then I will be glad that it wasn't obvious,  If you can see(or worse predict) a twist coming it isn't really that good a twist.

To me it's not about confirming IT in advance of the actual reveal. It's about not coming across as being full of themselves when we apparently didn't appreciate their "artistic vision".

There are decent ways to pull off ambiguous endings. There was a collective "sigh" of sorts from the audience at the end of Inception, probably largely because it DIDN'T tell us something we didn't want to be the case, whereas ME3 essentially tells you "you totally won, you're a legend!" on the pop-up that's advertising DLC (**). There are clues and lore in favour of IT, no question, and it is quite possible the ME3 ending was brilliant in writing, I'll give them that much credit. But the implementation leaves something to be desired.

Then outside of the game they leave the infuriating impression that they're defending a screw-up with, "dude, it's art!!" No doubt some would love it if that was part of the indoctrination of the players, so that some players will defend Control or Synthesis as sensible or even beauitful only to later find out the ugly truth. But that's, like, mean.



(**) To be fair, the Shepard breath scene is probably the closest ME3 equivalent.

[SubAstris]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

SubAstris never has a point.

Post of the day.

What a thorough refutation of my point... Oh wait...

You mean like you post deep and insightful counterpoint to IT...oh wait

You asked for my reply on couple things which I posted two pages back a few hours ago, still not seeing your reply...bet you dident watch the vid I have linked you twice either...

Yeah because I don't have time, I have just been popping in and out of this forum

So let me get this straight. You...

1: Challenge us to defend our views, but dont reply when we do so?
2: Rarely defend your own claims or dismiss them in ways which cannot be backed up (the Bioware was lazy claim) or simply say it has nothing to do with IT without explaining why.

And you still expect to be taken seriusly?

When have I said that when debating IT with you?

BTW, I managed to watch some of the video (admittedly skipped some of it because I knew the point it was trying to make). Doesn't mean I agree with it, and have explained why in other comments

[Tirian Thorn]

Rifneno wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

I wish I could find it where Byne listed Harbinger's assessment of the other races and why only humans were considered viable for "reaper-izing"

But basically it was said that:

Asarii - reproduction that requires aliens - not genetically worthy.
Salarians - short life span - not worthy
Krogan - sterile - not worthy (if you cured the genophage the reaper assesment might change)
Turians - primitive
Quarians - weak immune system - not worthy
Humans - genetically diverse, biotic potential, etc.

Which further illustrates why I think it's silly to believe the Reapers started building a Prothean Reaper but got halfway through and said "Opps, incompatible DNA. Oh well, trash it." They put serious thought into their horrifying crimes against nature.

Actual quotes

- "Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating."
- "Drell; useless, insufficient numbers."
- "Human; viable possibility, aggression factor useful if controlled"
- "Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness."
- "Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure."
- "Human; viable possibility, impressive genetic malleability."
- "Geth; an annoyance, limited utility."
- "Human; viable possibility, impressive technical potential"
- "Human; viable possibility, if emotional drives are subjugated."
- "Human; viable possibility, great biotic potential."
- "Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted."
- "Turian; you are considered...too primitive."

I find it interesting that the Geth were considered. 

But yes, the Reapers know a tremendous amount about genetics and are quite skilled at discovering which species are worthy of "ascension" and which are just going to be good to transform into husks and other moabominations. 

[balance5050]

Refrain from personal disputes please, they fuel the trolls.

Modifié par balance5050, 07 mai 2012 - 05:38 .

[Unschuld]

balance5050 wrote...

This is simply it. How many times has indoctrination been forshadowed in the series and in ME3 alone? About 1000x more then anything we see in the face value ending.

If Bioware is was forshadowing anything it was I.T.

Opposing opinion: you are looking too deep into things, grasping at straws, that was a meaningless bit of flavour dialogue, Bioware couldn't possibly have thought of things in advance like that and made the story up as they went along. Also, indoctrination doesn't fit into the theme of Mass Effect at all.

I think the same thing was said about the Leviathan of Dis. Certainly nothing came out of the description of Klendagon in ME1 either. TIM's eyes were just meaningless implants just because they looked cool, too.

Modifié par Unschuld, 07 mai 2012 - 05:40 .

[balance5050]

Unschuld wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

This is simply it. How many times has indoctrination been forshadowed in the series and in ME3 alone? About 1000x more then anything we see in the face value ending.

If Bioware is was forshadowing anything it was I.T.

Opposing opinion: you are looking too deep into things, grasping at straws, that was a meaningless bit of dialogue, Bioware couldn't possibly have thought of things in advance like that and made the story up as they went along.

I think the same thing was said about the Leviathan of Dis. Certainly nothing came out of the description of Klendagon in ME1 either. TIM's eyes were just meaningless implants just because they looked cool, too.

"Bioware couldn't possibly have thought of things in advance like that"

Only Sith deal in absolutes, nothing is certain, everything is permitted. What I mean is you shoot yourself in the foot by making such bold claims about Bioware (of all companies, they are the most liekly to do this actually)


"TIM's eyes were just meaningless implants just because they looked cool, too."

His eyes actually came from contact with a reaper artifact back in the First Contact Wars.

EDIT: wait, were you joking with me? WOOSH! that went right over my head.

Modifié par balance5050, 07 mai 2012 - 05:45 .

[Boradam]

bigstig wrote...

Also if the Reapers create a reaper per cycle and it takes the form of the species that made it, where is the Krogan, Asari and Turian reaper ships?

This is a bit unrelated and not really directed at this comment but it reminded me of it, so could someone correct me if I'm wrong in this?

It was my assumption that Sovereign-class Reapers skeletons were based off of their genetic predecessors (the species which Reaper slush was made from) and then the Reaper exoskeleton is all based off of the other Reapers (Sovereign, Harbinger) with slight variations.

Also (in slight relation to the comment) if that assumption was correct (I'm pretty sure it's been implied but I've seen some people who don't think this is how it works for Reapers) we wouldn't know if we were fighting those species; but we know they haven't yet made one since they first were focusing on humanity and are now on a galaxy wide invasion.

[Unschuld]

balance5050 wrote...
EDIT: wait, were you joking with me? WOOSH! that went right over me.

Grunt: hehhh hehh hehh...



I think my favorites are the "Bioware doesn't foreshadow things" and "Indoctrination theory is dumb because it goes completely against the theme of Mass Effect". The past two games must have wooshed past their heads like my post did over your sarcasm detector. My sense of humor can be hard to detect sometimes though.

Modifié par Unschuld, 07 mai 2012 - 05:53 .

[Rifneno]

Boradam wrote...

This is a bit unrelated and not really directed at this comment but it reminded me of it, so could someone correct me if I'm wrong in this?

It was my assumption that Sovereign-class Reapers skeletons were based off of their genetic predecessors (the species which Reaper slush was made from) and then the Reaper exoskeleton is all based off of the other Reapers (Sovereign, Harbinger) with slight variations.

Also (in slight relation to the comment) if that assumption was correct (I'm pretty sure it's been implied but I've seen some people who don't think this is how it works for Reapers) we wouldn't know if we were fighting those species; but we know they haven't yet made one since they first were focusing on humanity and are now on a galaxy wide invasion.

According to the codex, research indicates that destroyers are made from the species which don't get chosen as capital ships.  So asari. turian, ect. will become destroyers.  After fighting the destroyer on Rannoch Tuchanka, EDI will be transmitting some data about it to the turians.  She says that while capital ship Reapers are each unique (nobody told the art department that), destroyers are pretty much the same across the board.  So it's a safe bet that even if they did finish a Reaper made from the other current races, we wouldn't recognize it as such.  And it is reasonable that they might have finished a destroyer, especially from the batarians, since destroyers are a fraction of the size of a capital ship.

Edit: I can't keep my alien homeworlds straight.  

Modifié par Rifneno, 07 mai 2012 - 05:51 .

[Unschuld]

Rifneno wrote...
According to the codex, research indicates that destroyers are made from the species which don't get chosen as capital ships.  So asari. turian, ect. will become destroyers.  After fighting the destroyer on Rannoch Tuchanka, EDI will be transmitting some data about it to the turians.  She says that while capital ship Reapers are each unique (nobody told the art department that), destroyers are pretty much the same across the board.  So it's a safe bet that even if they did finish a Reaper made from the other current races, we wouldn't recognize it as such.  And it is reasonable that they might have finished a destroyer, especially from the batarians, since destroyers are a fraction of the size of a capital ship.

Edit: I can't keep my alien homeworlds straight.  

I think even if the art dept. knew, someone would have told them "Nah, that'll cost too many extra resources. Cookie-cutter them. No one will notice."

Modifié par Unschuld, 07 mai 2012 - 05:58 .

[Boradam]

Rifneno wrote...

Boradam wrote...

This is a bit unrelated and not really directed at this comment but it reminded me of it, so could someone correct me if I'm wrong in this?

It was my assumption that Sovereign-class Reapers skeletons were based off of their genetic predecessors (the species which Reaper slush was made from) and then the Reaper exoskeleton is all based off of the other Reapers (Sovereign, Harbinger) with slight variations.

Also (in slight relation to the comment) if that assumption was correct (I'm pretty sure it's been implied but I've seen some people who don't think this is how it works for Reapers) we wouldn't know if we were fighting those species; but we know they haven't yet made one since they first were focusing on humanity and are now on a galaxy wide invasion.

According to the codex, research indicates that destroyers are made from the species which don't get chosen as capital ships.  So asari. turian, ect. will become destroyers.  After fighting the destroyer on Rannoch Tuchanka, EDI will be transmitting some data about it to the turians.  She says that while capital ship Reapers are each unique (nobody told the art department that), destroyers are pretty much the same across the board.  So it's a safe bet that even if they did finish a Reaper made from the other current races, we wouldn't recognize it as such.  And it is reasonable that they might have finished a destroyer, especially from the batarians, since destroyers are a fraction of the size of a capital ship.

Edit: I can't keep my alien homeworlds straight.  

Yeah, the Captial ships would be slightly unique in their skeletal structure underneath the Reaper shell/exoskeleton being that it would be based off that of their origin species if that assumption is correct, but we don't actually know in what way Reapers are supposed to be unique.

Take your Prothean Reaper idea for example; if Harbinger is indeed a Prothean Reaper we'd only be able to guess or speculate on that because of some similarities, but if we saw the inside of Harbinger without it's shell we'd be able to see clearly (enough, at least) if it was a Prothean from the structure underneath, but not from the shell on the outside.

I hope that made sense (and I think you are agreeing with me, but I just wanted to make it clear in case anyone else has opposing thoughts for it.)

Modifié par Boradam, 07 mai 2012 - 06:00 .

[aquaur]

SubAstris wrote...

aquaur wrote...

Been a lurker for a while in this thread, but I'm missing a lot of content (this thread is moving so fast) so I may repeat something that has been already told.

I find it hard to discard the James quote: "do you hear that hum" considering that in mass effect 1 a similar line was used to foreshadow the ending of the game.

When you go in the presidium in the first game with different character you can get their personnal comment about things around. When you get to the mass relay monument near the presidium tower Kaidan says:  "Anyone else hear that low hum? Sounds like it's coming from that statue. Makes my teeth tingle." That single line foreshadow that indeed the relay is active and will be used at the end.

Can't find a youtube video but here's a link to the dialogue:
http://masseffect.wi...Unique_dialogue 

This may indeed being grasping straws, the point is not making this a proof or anything. My point is we should keep in mind that bioware gave away a big clue in a single line of dialogue before, I really doubt we can take random conversation so lightly and say it is just a coincidence. They did something similar on purpose in the first one, why not doing it again in ME3?

Possibly, but what exactly would it show? James is indoctrinated, or Shepard? And I must note that there is indeed a hum there

Could be anything, has I was saying in my post: I am not making a proof of this. It could mean anything because we don't have access to what really happened to anybody after the ending, no epilogue, no nothing, just random image of space magic and crew somewhere. Absolutely nothing is "concrete" explanation in the end.

There is so much missing parts that even if you take the ending literally, it is not explained what are the effect of the crucible. The Star child explanations are so vague (and you cannot ask details about them as Shepard) that it is left to your interpretation what really happened to the galaxy in the end even if you take litterally what he is saying. For example, does the cycle continue or stop after control, to what extend can Shepard control them if he's dead? And for synthesis, what is stopping the mixed Organic/Synthetic of creating more presumly bad synthetic, and restart the cycle...Does it implied that pure organic will never exist again or will they have to be process to create more organic/synthetic hybrid (like reaper do)?...etc, etc... the ending is clearly really vague (unintended pun) even from a litteral point of view. In the end we have clue about what might happen to the galaxy, but no real concrete future established.

So any clues can be interpreted in any ways because we don't have any real framework to work with. What we have is just a partial framework that can be easily be dismissed considering what the lore from the game universe (such as hallucination and indoctrination) can imply that what we see may not be real. So any theory is as good as another. It just happened that I personnally find that IT fill well the plot hole and some clues. But everything is still possible.

All I want to say with my post is that: There are clue in the game, that is for sure, but we can't know for sure, what they implied. Not everything is left to "chance" and "coincidence" or "bug".

And it is fun to speculate

[EpyonX3]

MaximizedAction wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

I AM THE QUEEN OF THE HARPIES!!! *prances around*

This isn't a real queen...

Problem?

[EpyonX3]

monrapias wrote...

Something to look at while we wait

That's awesome.

[Uncle Jo]

SubAstris wrote...


And so I will respond to your same, over-used counterpoints:

1) We have been told by the Catalyst that control is possible, albeit not completely without risk. Once given the ability to control, if there arises a conflict between organics and synthetics again, the rogue AI can be destroyed by the Reapers. Furthermore, you forget to realise that destroy would continue the cycles, and it continues without getting to use any of the Reaper's advanced tech. You are not really backstabbing your allies by ending the threat to their existence, the threat of annihilation by the Reapers, which they all want. This threat no longer exists because Shepard controls the Reapers. Backstabbing would be to kill your allies, such as the Geth, despite options to save them.

The Synthesis option is very controversial I agree. It would depend on who you talked to as far as whether they hated you. Some would because of the lack of free will and input on the decisions. However others would realise that it was a necessary decision to end the biggest threat known to the galaxy; "the best way is not always the easy way".

IMO, as of now, I am leaning more towards Control as the best option, followed by Destroy and Synthesis.

2) All I can say is that shields are not designed for planetary re-entry. The whole resurrection scene shatters suspension of disbelief as much as synthesis does.

3) Just because something cannot be disproved does not make it plausible. Common example, I can't disprove that there are fairies at the bottom of my garden, but it is implausible that there are some. Of course, these are my views.

4) I must remind you that BW has said that "ALL plot important people survive". Doesn't Shepard constitute plot important?

1. I recall that the brat said the Reapers harvest the most advanced civilizations which can create synthetics so the synthetics won't wipe out organics, blahblahblah...
Yet you mean that a rogue AI will be destroyed by Shep and his new buddies without killing organics. So why didn't the Reapers do it all along the cycles ? Were they dumb enough to not come up with this idea and needed Shep to tell them what to do ? You're contradicting yourself and the logic of the brat by saying so... And sorry, as long as the Reapers are hanging around out there, no one  will consider reasonably the threat gone, even if Shep coming in person with his brand new tentacles to tell it... No one will trust him..

"destroy would continue the cycles"
What are you talking about ? The cycle is about the Reapers (and their new boss if you want). Send them to hell and there is no cycle anymore.

Concerning the synthesis I won't argue anymore about it. I've loled hard as I've heard the starbrat saying "We need each other to make it happens" ... I don't need to remember you what happens if you merge synthetics and organics. You've killed tons of them along the three games.

2. If you say so and if you don't have a problem with an ending which is absolutely not related with the rest of the three games and makes no sense at face-value (I'm not the only one to think so and even some anti-IT are not happy with it. Don't ask me why, the reasons are well explained in this thread and many other websites), then fair enough that's your opinion. If not...

3. Bad example. You seem to forget that the IT is based on one irrefutable fact : the Reapers ability to indoctrinate. It's one of the main theme in the ME universe. It's stated and explained in the codex. And yes, there is some events and scene in-game which could be interpretated as clues/hints for the IT. Now the current conclusion of the game (ending) lacks closure (for most of the gamers), that's why it can't be fully proven or dismissed. You'll get the answer this summer.

4. You're not answering. See 2.


Anyway, I mean no offense (and I'm by far not an expert) but when I see your arguments and your knowledge of the ME Universe, I'm seriously asking myself if you ever played ME1 and ME2 or at least read some of the codex pages...

[MaximizedAction]

EpyonX3 wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

I AM THE QUEEN OF THE HARPIES!!! *prances around*

This isn't a real queen...

Problem?

ME3 Gamer poop remark fail from me...maybe should've put a smilie after it

[EpyonX3]

MaximizedAction wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

I AM THE QUEEN OF THE HARPIES!!! *prances around*

This isn't a real queen...

Problem?

ME3 Gamer poop remark fail from me...maybe should've put a smilie after it

I know what you meant lol he said Problem right before that. Did you see the third video?

[paxxton]

MaximizedAction wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

I AM THE QUEEN OF THE HARPIES!!! *prances around*

This isn't a real queen...

Problem?

ME3 Gamer poop remark fail from me...maybe should've put a smilie after it

There's a 3rd Gamer Poop: Mass Effect 3 episode on YouTube.

Modifié par paxxton, 07 mai 2012 - 06:33 .

[Earthborn_Shepard]

Thanks for saving my evening!