57139 réponses à ce sujet

[estebanus]

D.Sharrah wrote...

Is it just me or are people that are anti-IT, only anti-IT so they can keep bashing the game...it just seems so counter-productive. I can see some negativity and opposition if you truly believe that IT is false - but to argue just so you can bash...sheesh.

That's how the world works nowadays: People bashing for the sake of bashing.

[D.Sharrah]

Was TIM ordering the Thessia Red for himself...or as part of the "recruitment" package for Joker?

[Wolfram Tarant]

One other thing I've noticed, which I haven't seen mentioned before, is the fact that the game actually went out of it's way to explicitly tell the player that TIM chose not to implant Shepard with any sort of control device. Miranda tells you this on the Citadel, and if I remember correctly, there's mention of it while on Cronos Station as well... and both times it's treated as some kind of over dramatic revelation, which I thought was strange until the final scene... if Shepard was made to shoot Anderson by TIM through his implants then why did the writers go so far out of their way to tell you that Cerberus absolutely didn't embed some kind of control device in Shepard during the Lazarus Project? :/

Or maybe I'm just overlooking something?

Modifié par Wolfram Tarant, 07 mai 2012 - 09:26 .

[Earthborn_Shepard]

Wolfram Tarant wrote...

One other thing I've noticed, which I haven't seen mentioned before, is the fact that the game actually went out of it's way to explicitly tell the player that TIM chose not to implant Shepard with any sort of control device. Miranda tells you this on the Citadel, and if I remember correctly, there's mention of it while on Cronos Station as well... and both times it's treated as some kind of over dramatic revelation, which I thought was strange until the final scene... if Shepard was made to shoot Anderson by TIM through his implants then why did the writers go so far out of their way to tell you that Cerberus absolutely didn't embed some kind of control device in Shepard during the Lazarus Project? :/

Or maybe I'm just overlooking something?

Yeah.. I was like. "Uh Miranda you already told me.. but thanks, I guess..."

[MaximizedAction]

Wolfram Tarant wrote...

One other thing I've noticed, which I haven't seen mentioned before, is the fact that the game actually went out of it's way to explicitly tell the player that TIM chose not to implant Shepard with any sort of control device. Miranda tells you this on the Citadel, and if I remember correctly, there's mention of it while on Cronos Station as well... and both times it's treated as some kind of over dramatic revelation, which I thought was strange until the final scene... if Shepard was made to shoot Anderson by TIM through his implants then why did the writers go so far out of their way to tell you that Cerberus absolutely didn't embed some kind of control device in Shepard during the Lazarus Project? :/

Or maybe I'm just overlooking something?

Hm, good point.
Does Cerberus' indoctrination require implants for the 'indoctrinee' or only for the indoctrinator (like TIM)?

If yes then this indeed seems contradictory.

[DJBare]

balance5050 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

blooregard wrote...

We're discussing TIM's choice of drinks now and how bourbon is clearly a devious Reaper creation meant to corrupt the minds of all those who drink it?


Intoxication theory 2.0

I agree, things like this are just stretching and only serve to dilute IT.

I'm sure it's just jokes.... 

But my response was not.

[Stigweird85]

Wolfram Tarant wrote...

One other thing I've noticed, which I haven't seen mentioned before, is the fact that the game actually went out of it's way to explicitly tell the player that TIM chose not to implant Shepard with any sort of control device. Miranda tells you this on the Citadel, and if I remember correctly, there's mention of it while on Cronos Station as well... and both times it's treated as some kind of over dramatic revelation, which I thought was strange until the final scene... if Shepard was made to shoot Anderson by TIM through his implants then why did the writers go so far out of their way to tell you that Cerberus absolutely didn't embed some kind of control device in Shepard during the Lazarus Project? :/

Or maybe I'm just overlooking something?

Interesting point, Shep has no control chip in him yet TIM controls him in the end, kind of contradictory there and Anderson is all human so how did he do it? Do we really believe that TIM mastered the power of indoctrination to the extent he could "assume direct control" without turning shepard or Anderson into mindless thralls which is the established side effect of fast indoctrination?

So we are assuming that not only did TIM crack reaper tech but he improved on it? Nah sorry don't buy it. Another reason why that whole scene stinks to high heavems

[Arashi08]

I had a thought about Shepard's implants. Personally I find it highly unlikely there is any Reaper tech in her implants as I thought they stated in Retribution that Grayson was going to be their first subject when experimenting with Reaper implants. it was Grayson and his implantation that lead to Cerberus outfitting their Troopers with Reaper tech after all.

[paxxton]

MaximizedAction wrote...

Wolfram Tarant wrote...

One other thing I've noticed, which I haven't seen mentioned before, is the fact that the game actually went out of it's way to explicitly tell the player that TIM chose not to implant Shepard with any sort of control device. Miranda tells you this on the Citadel, and if I remember correctly, there's mention of it while on Cronos Station as well... and both times it's treated as some kind of over dramatic revelation, which I thought was strange until the final scene... if Shepard was made to shoot Anderson by TIM through his implants then why did the writers go so far out of their way to tell you that Cerberus absolutely didn't embed some kind of control device in Shepard during the Lazarus Project? :/

Or maybe I'm just overlooking something?

Hm, good point.
Does Cerberus' indoctrination require implants for the 'indoctrinee' or only for the indoctrinator (like TIM)?

If yes then this indeed seems contradictory.

This is a good moment to remember nanides. I put forward this theory some time ago. Basically, TIM spreads nanides in the air and controls others through them. This explains the black tendrils on the Citadel.

Modifié par paxxton, 07 mai 2012 - 09:46 .

[DJBare]

bigstig wrote...


Interesting point, Shep has no control chip in him yet TIM controls him in the end, kind of contradictory there and Anderson is all human so how did he do it? Do we really believe that TIM mastered the power of indoctrination to the extent he could "assume direct control" without turning shepard or Anderson into mindless thralls which is the established side effect of fast indoctrination?

So we are assuming that not only did TIM crack reaper tech but he improved on it? Nah sorry don't buy it. Another reason why that whole scene stinks to high heavems

TIM was also controlling Anderson, so I cannot see the lack of implants meaning anything at this point.

[Wolfram Tarant]

MaximizedAction wrote...
Hm, good point.
Does Cerberus' indoctrination require implants for the 'indoctrinee' or only for the indoctrinator (like TIM)?

If yes then this indeed seems contradictory.

bigstig wrote...
Interesting point, Shep has no control chip in him yet TIM controls him in the end, kind of contradictory there and Anderson is all human so how did he do it? Do we really believe that TIM mastered the power of indoctrination to the extent he could "assume direct control" without turning shepard or Anderson into mindless thralls which is the established side effect of fast indoctrination?

So we are assuming that not only did TIM crack reaper tech but he improved on it? Nah sorry don't buy it. Another reason why that whole scene stinks to high heavems

The only evidence I can think of are the datapads in N7: Cerberus Lab, which describe Cerberus "integration." Obviously I can't remember EXACTLY what the datapads said but I'm pretty sure they don't mention implants. But still.... that doesn't seem too important considering how every other Cerbeus operative seems to have been implanted.... the soldier on Mars, the one you read about on the Shadow Broker terminal who self-destructed during interrogation, etc.

Modifié par Wolfram Tarant, 07 mai 2012 - 09:49 .

[Stigweird85]

Arashi08 wrote...

I had a thought about Shepard's implants. Personally I find it highly unlikely there is any Reaper tech in her implants as I thought they stated in Retribution that Grayson was going to be their first subject when experimenting with Reaper implants. it was Grayson and his implantation that lead to Cerberus outfitting their Troopers with Reaper tech after all.

Grayson was an experiment gone wrong, he didn't work the reapers still had some control of him, and cereberus did not also I think TIM uses recovered Soverign tech on him and he is deemed a failure. 
The first success was Shepard followed by Kai Ling - I'm sure somewhere in game you see a conversation between TIM and KL which goes along the lines of I haven't seen anyone take to those Impleants since Shepard -KL adds that Shepard betrayed him
Please correct me on any of this

[Stigweird85]

Wolfram Tarant wrote...

 Edit for space.

Yes but Cereberus troops were essentially mindless after joining, they could only do what was asked of them. No level of independent thought. They are no different than husks or any other reaper thrall. 

The process of integration is never fully explained although I believe it involves injecting nanites into the person. 

The reapers are eons old, there is no,possible way that a human or a bunch of humans could break the indoctrination code and improve on it - unless they didn't break it but wHere given it. For example we understand how mass relays work but cannot replicate them on the same scale. Yet TIM seems to crack indoctrination with at best 30years or research.
Sorry for spelling, doing this in bed on my phone

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

blooregard wrote...

We're discussing TIM's choice of drinks now and how bourbon is clearly a devious Reaper creation meant to corrupt the minds of all those who drink it?


Intoxication theory 2.0

I agree, things like this are just stretching and only serve to dilute IT.

I'm sure it's just jokes.... 

The question really is...does it go great with Steak?

[MaximizedAction]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

blooregard wrote...

We're discussing TIM's choice of drinks now and how bourbon is clearly a devious Reaper creation meant to corrupt the minds of all those who drink it?


Intoxication theory 2.0

I agree, things like this are just stretching and only serve to dilute IT.

I'm sure it's just jokes.... 

The question really is...does it go great with Steak?

Steak? I f*cking love Steak!

[SubAstris]

D.Sharrah wrote...

Is it just me or are people that are anti-IT, only anti-IT so they can keep bashing the game...it just seems so counter-productive. I can see some negativity and opposition if you truly believe that IT is false - but to argue just so you can bash...sheesh.

Probably that is the motivation for some people, yes, they can't possibly think BW could do anything good after "ruining" the Mass Effect Franchise" with the ending.

[byne]

Wolfram Tarant wrote...


The only evidence I can think of are the datapads in N7: Cerberus Lab, which describe Cerberus "integration." Obviously I can't remember EXACTLY what the datapads said but I'm pretty sure they don't mention implants. But still.... that doesn't seem too important considering how every other Cerbeus operative seems to have been implanted.... the soldier on Mars, the one you read about on the Shadow Broker terminal who self-destructed during interrogation, etc.

To be fair, that wasnt Reaper implants or anything, the soldier in the interrogation says they were ocular flashbangs, which just proves TIM listened when Mordin gave him advice.

[EpyonX3]

MaximizedAction wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

blooregard wrote...

We're discussing TIM's choice of drinks now and how bourbon is clearly a devious Reaper creation meant to corrupt the minds of all those who drink it?


Intoxication theory 2.0

I agree, things like this are just stretching and only serve to dilute IT.

I'm sure it's just jokes.... 

The question really is...does it go great with Steak?

Steak? I f*cking love Steak!

I like you. You're fun! lol

[EpyonX3]

byne wrote...

Wolfram Tarant wrote...


The only evidence I can think of are the datapads in N7: Cerberus Lab, which describe Cerberus "integration." Obviously I can't remember EXACTLY what the datapads said but I'm pretty sure they don't mention implants. But still.... that doesn't seem too important considering how every other Cerbeus operative seems to have been implanted.... the soldier on Mars, the one you read about on the Shadow Broker terminal who self-destructed during interrogation, etc.

To be fair, that wasnt Reaper implants or anything, the soldier in the interrogation says they were ocular flashbangs, which just proves TIM listened when Mordin gave him advice.

good find. I remember this conversation, but forgot exactly what he said. A lot of Mordin's conversations were a blurr to me in my first playthroughs.

[Stigweird85]

byne wrote...

Wolfram Tarant wrote...


The only evidence I can think of are the datapads in N7: Cerberus Lab, which describe Cerberus "integration." Obviously I can't remember EXACTLY what the datapads said but I'm pretty sure they don't mention implants. But still.... that doesn't seem too important considering how every other Cerbeus operative seems to have been implanted.... the soldier on Mars, the one you read about on the Shadow Broker terminal who self-destructed during interrogation, etc.

To be fair, that wasnt Reaper implants or anything, the soldier in the interrogation says they were ocular flashbangs, which just proves TIM listened when Mordin gave him advice.

Yup Bioware is just lazy I mean they just reused some script there that wasn't deliberate at all:D

[Wolfram Tarant]

byne wrote...
To be fair, that wasnt Reaper implants or anything, the soldier in the interrogation says they were ocular flashbangs, which just proves TIM listened when Mordin gave him advice.

True. But my main point is that it's highly unlikely TIM was controlling Shepard through his implants. Not saying that it was impossible to control him through other methods though. Just saying, if you choose to interpret the ending literally and you're completely adamant that the implants were how TIM made Shepard shoot Anderson, then I disagree...

[byne]

Wolfram Tarant wrote...

byne wrote...
To be fair, that wasnt Reaper implants or anything, the soldier in the interrogation says they were ocular flashbangs, which just proves TIM listened when Mordin gave him advice.

True. But my main point is that it's highly unlikely TIM was controlling Shepard through his implants. Not saying that it was impossible to control him through other methods though. Just saying, if you choose to interpret the ending literally and you're completely adamant that the implants were how TIM made Shepard shoot Anderson, then I disagree...

Even if you think TIM controlled Shep through her implants, he also controlled Anderson, who has no implants at all.

[Wolfram Tarant]

Ohhh yeah... I forgot that, feel stupid now I'm only on my second play through now.... ah yes nevermind

[TheConstantOne]

Salient Archer wrote...

It’s interesting to see that what was once considered a renegade action now leads to the “paragon” conclusion to the series. Which I guess is where I’ll start to dissect it a little bit; I guess the first point most raise is that Shepard’s perception of what is right and wrong has now been clouded by the Reaper indoctrination (much like how the Codex points out) and hence why he doesn’t actually see this option for what it really is, but that also raises another issue, which is “why would Shepard actually care if it was blue, red, purple, tangerine or pink with plaid stripes?” the simple answer is: he wouldn’t, the blue paragon and red renegade options are only something us the player are witnesses too, it’s a system for us to judge quickly and easily what those options are. So if we separate the colors out of the equation, we could look at it from the point of view that Shepard had already once sided with the illusive man (an agent of the reapers) and potentially could see the value in the dangled carrot of power that is the “control ending”, not only this but Shepard also showed he was able to help secure one of the most crucial bits of tech in the universe and that he was willing to sacrifice humanities soul to do so, proving that he was malleable and more willing to see things from the enemies perspective, not only making him easier to indoctrinate but that he had enough clout to keep around as an asset due to his outcome focussed attitude. This might also have been the easiest way for the reapers to get Shepard out of the picture and remove him as a liability in their war against organics.

This could be paralleled with the alternative low EMS option of Destroy being the only option, demonstrating Shepard’s desire to overcome the Reapers but never actually having the strength to do so. Either way the Reapers win their psychological battle with Shepard and in both cases plays to Shepard’s weaknesses to take him out of the picture one way or another depending on his moral stance. This could possibly just be demonstrating their desire to take the path of least resistance.

Literalist: The biggest difference the base makes in the game is whether the Reaper Heart or Brain is in the Crucible.  Since those different components lead to different default choices, is it not logical to assume that the Crucible's construction plays a role in the order the choices are presented?

My main counter to this is that the platform that Shepard is standing and hence the platform in which Shepard’s choices are presented are actually on the Citadel side and not the Crucibles and should not be affected by the crucibles construction or materials. Having said that, the StarChild does say he was altered (to what extent we don’t know) but regardless, why do the other choices eventually present themselves anyway, as this is not based on the crucibles construction or materials but rather Shepard’s EMS (Re: Will power) if this is to be the case?

Alright, Archer.  I finally have the chance to respond to you.  If anyone else sees something they want to comment on, chime in.

1) Control as the default option, IT perspective=complete indoctrination: I can see what you're saying.  It's a good point.  The Reapers could be using a renegade Shep's tendency to achieve power (as evidenced in the previous ME's as a "humans first" mentality) as the very hook to catch him off-balance and indoctrinate him.  The paragon who chose to save the base simply out of not seeing a better option could likewise be enticed into thinking that their reservation in using the tech is the key to victory.  Considering this from both sides, a claim to personal responsibility or a drive to use your own power to enforce peace, can both be an explanation for Control to be the default choice for a Shepard who saves the Collector base.

2) As for this point, I would argue that although Shepard is indeed on the Citadel when the Crucible docks, the fact that the device docked with the Citadel has created a singular new system. Consequently, the construction of the Crucible would affect the choices Shepard has.  

Now, with point (2) I'm playing something of a devil's advocate.  After all, the Crucible construction factors in EMS points.  Since EMS is a score that also is raised by sparing Anderson, something that is motivational and can apparently affect the machine's functionality... this makes no sense.  But you know this 

In any case, I would like to take this moment to again point out my suspiscion that the Crucible is an indoctrination device on a scale never achieved before, and that the Reapers want us to use it. There has to be some reason for the Reapers to be amassing humans on the Citadel.  I think the Crucible combined with our genetic variance is the key to their ultimate weapon.  This could have severe implications for the ending...I'm thinking of starting a thread about about this idea

[Arashi08]

bigstig wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

I had a thought about Shepard's implants. Personally I find it highly unlikely there is any Reaper tech in her implants as I thought they stated in Retribution that Grayson was going to be their first subject when experimenting with Reaper implants. it was Grayson and his implantation that lead to Cerberus outfitting their Troopers with Reaper tech after all.

Grayson was an experiment gone wrong, he didn't work the reapers still had some control of him, and cereberus did not also I think TIM uses recovered Soverign tech on him and he is deemed a failure. 
The first success was Shepard followed by Kai Ling - I'm sure somewhere in game you see a conversation between TIM and KL which goes along the lines of I haven't seen anyone take to those Impleants since Shepard -KL adds that Shepard betrayed him
Please correct me on any of this

  Grayson was implanted after the events of ME 2  so it doesn't seem likely that Shepard has Reaper tech in her implants.  as for what TIM said to Kai Leng in the video, he actually said that Leng reminded him of Shepard, but wasn't very specific as to why, but I think it was more about their physical resilience, noy necessarily their ability to adjust to implanting.