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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#52676
Stigweird85

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byne wrote...

Wolfram Tarant wrote...

byne wrote...
To be fair, that wasnt Reaper implants or anything, the soldier in the interrogation says they were ocular flashbangs, which just proves TIM listened when Mordin gave him advice.

True. But my main point is that it's highly unlikely TIM was controlling Shepard through his implants. Not saying that it was impossible to control him through other methods though. Just saying, if you choose to interpret the ending literally and you're completely adamant that the implants were how TIM made Shepard shoot Anderson, then I disagree...

Even if you think TIM controlled Shep through her implants, he also controlled Anderson, who has no implants at all.

 
If you assume TIM is controlling via some form of indoctrination he has somehow cured the side effect of indoctrination In as much as both Shepard and Anderson retain their minds which goes against everything we know so the literal interpretation TIM not only cracks reaper tech but improves on it? It's just not possible

#52677
RxP4IN

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bigstig wrote...

byne wrote...

Wolfram Tarant wrote...

byne wrote...
To be fair, that wasnt Reaper implants or anything, the soldier in the interrogation says they were ocular flashbangs, which just proves TIM listened when Mordin gave him advice.

True. But my main point is that it's highly unlikely TIM was controlling Shepard through his implants. Not saying that it was impossible to control him through other methods though. Just saying, if you choose to interpret the ending literally and you're completely adamant that the implants were how TIM made Shepard shoot Anderson, then I disagree...

Even if you think TIM controlled Shep through her implants, he also controlled Anderson, who has no implants at all.

 
If you assume TIM is controlling via some form of indoctrination he has somehow cured the side effect of indoctrination In as much as both Shepard and Anderson retain their minds which goes against everything we know so the literal interpretation TIM not only cracks reaper tech but improves on it? It's just not possible


This is my biggest problem with arguments defending that scene.

"Dur. Somebody wasn't paying attention during Sanctuary...DURRRR."

Seriously? IT or not, Cerberus improving Reaper tech is just stupid. So a nigh-infinite, hyper-intelligent life-form with limitless time and resources is outdone in a few months by a buch of crack scientists whose experiments always blow up in their faces? Ughh....

#52678
balance5050

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RxP4IN wrote...

bigstig wrote...

byne wrote...

Wolfram Tarant wrote...

byne wrote...
To be fair, that wasnt Reaper implants or anything, the soldier in the interrogation says they were ocular flashbangs, which just proves TIM listened when Mordin gave him advice.

True. But my main point is that it's highly unlikely TIM was controlling Shepard through his implants. Not saying that it was impossible to control him through other methods though. Just saying, if you choose to interpret the ending literally and you're completely adamant that the implants were how TIM made Shepard shoot Anderson, then I disagree...

Even if you think TIM controlled Shep through her implants, he also controlled Anderson, who has no implants at all.

 
If you assume TIM is controlling via some form of indoctrination he has somehow cured the side effect of indoctrination In as much as both Shepard and Anderson retain their minds which goes against everything we know so the literal interpretation TIM not only cracks reaper tech but improves on it? It's just not possible


This is my biggest problem with arguments defending that scene.

"Dur. Somebody wasn't paying attention during Sanctuary...DURRRR."

Seriously? IT or not, Cerberus improving Reaper tech is just stupid. So a nigh-infinite, hyper-intelligent life-form with limitless time and resources is outdone in a few months by a buch of crack scientists whose experiments always blow up in their faces? Ughh....


It's funny because every cycle has a group that tries to do this.

#52679
Golferguy758

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[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...

[quote]Golferguy758 wrote...

Oh hi guys, How's it goin?[/quote]

Oh hai golfergai! Yew arr looking especially beotefull and sexee todaeh.

YOU ARE TEARING ME APART INDOCTRINATION THEORY!

/Wiseau

[quote]

Oh God, why? Not The Room! Anything but The Room!

#52680
Stigweird85

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Well it's just after midnight here in the UK so I'm offski, try not to hav too much fun without me

#52681
MaximizedAction

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balance5050 wrote...

RxP4IN wrote...

bigstig wrote...

byne wrote...

Wolfram Tarant wrote...

byne wrote...
To be fair, that wasnt Reaper implants or anything, the soldier in the interrogation says they were ocular flashbangs, which just proves TIM listened when Mordin gave him advice.

True. But my main point is that it's highly unlikely TIM was controlling Shepard through his implants. Not saying that it was impossible to control him through other methods though. Just saying, if you choose to interpret the ending literally and you're completely adamant that the implants were how TIM made Shepard shoot Anderson, then I disagree...

Even if you think TIM controlled Shep through her implants, he also controlled Anderson, who has no implants at all.

 
If you assume TIM is controlling via some form of indoctrination he has somehow cured the side effect of indoctrination In as much as both Shepard and Anderson retain their minds which goes against everything we know so the literal interpretation TIM not only cracks reaper tech but improves on it? It's just not possible


This is my biggest problem with arguments defending that scene.

"Dur. Somebody wasn't paying attention during Sanctuary...DURRRR."

Seriously? IT or not, Cerberus improving Reaper tech is just stupid. So a nigh-infinite, hyper-intelligent life-form with limitless time and resources is outdone in a few months by a buch of crack scientists whose experiments always blow up in their faces? Ughh....


It's funny because every cycle has a group that tries to do this.


In a real world situation, ^this is a powerful tool for likelyhood-of-success forecasts. If >100 cycles tried it before and failed then you are very likely to fail, too.

Since this is a game...we have to hope that the writers took that into account, which will be the case if the Crucible turns out to be a trap in the EC. The infamous red herring, if you will.

It's an interesting scenario - and an incredibly logical  solution for the deus ex that is introduced so outrageously early in the game - if it actually turns out to be the reason why every cycle before this one failed:

They wasted to much time and ressources on the Crucible, when they actually might've had a chance against the Reapers with conventional warfare.
After all, intimidation is a powerfull weapon: the Reapers make you believe they cannot be beaten conventionally.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 07 mai 2012 - 11:24 .


#52682
MegumiAzusa

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HellishFiend wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Reaper Indoctrination Device found...that is the Indoctriantion devices from the multiplayer. I have found one of them hanging on the wall in one of the rooms Ardat-Yakshi monestary. What is even more interesting is that it can be destroyed by shooting at it...why would a Indoctrination device be there if the Reapers simply hit the Monastery in force and captured the Ardat-Yakshi to change them outright?

Gonna keep an eye out for more.


What?? This is a pretty significant find!

Posted that about 1000 pages ago, no one reacted :P

#52683
Big Bad

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I really, really hope that the Crucible does turn out to be a trap. My first reaction to it was that finding a super-secret-doomsday-weapon to destroy a nigh unkillable enemy was just a little too convenient to be true. Sure it could be somewhat-lazy writing, and I can live with that if it's true; but I would really love to see Bioware throw the mother of all plot twists at us, whatever that may happen to be!

#52684
MegumiAzusa

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byne wrote...

So, since we're off-topic at the moment anyhow, am I the only one who hasnt gotten their Operation Exorcist pack for surviving to extraction on gold?

I got the pack for the community completing Operation Exorcist, but not the package that gives an N7 weapon.

Edit: Fixed the part where I said Raptor instead of Exorcist.

Yeah, took me a while to get the Raptor pack, but I did eventually get that one. :P

Use the chat live support thingy, you get it in <5 mins.

#52685
gunslinger_ruiz

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Reaper Indoctrination Device found...that is the Indoctriantion devices from the multiplayer. I have found one of them hanging on the wall in one of the rooms Ardat-Yakshi monestary. What is even more interesting is that it can be destroyed by shooting at it...why would a Indoctrination device be there if the Reapers simply hit the Monastery in force and captured the Ardat-Yakshi to change them outright?

Gonna keep an eye out for more.


What?? This is a pretty significant find!

Posted that about 1000 pages ago, no one reacted :P


That's a Barrier Generator, they give biotic barriers to Reaper ground troops much like the Shield Pylons do for Cerberus troops and can be destroyed to stop the effect. Multiplayer uses the same design for Indoctrination Devices that need to be deactivated during an objective wave. If you found something that looked like it on the Normandy, that would be a significant find, but as it is they exist only on missions and multiplayer.

#52686
byne

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MegumiAzusa wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Reaper Indoctrination Device found...that is the Indoctriantion devices from the multiplayer. I have found one of them hanging on the wall in one of the rooms Ardat-Yakshi monestary. What is even more interesting is that it can be destroyed by shooting at it...why would a Indoctrination device be there if the Reapers simply hit the Monastery in force and captured the Ardat-Yakshi to change them outright?

Gonna keep an eye out for more.


What?? This is a pretty significant find!

Posted that about 1000 pages ago, no one reacted :P


Its a Barrier Engine. The Reaper version of Cerberus Shield Pylons.

Once all nearby enemies have been killed, Barrier Engines no longer show up as targets, but can still be destroyed.

#52687
byne

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Big Bad wrote...

I really, really hope that the Crucible does turn out to be a trap. My first reaction to it was that finding a super-secret-doomsday-weapon to destroy a nigh unkillable enemy was just a little too convenient to be true. Sure it could be somewhat-lazy writing, and I can live with that if it's true; but I would really love to see Bioware throw the mother of all plot twists at us, whatever that may happen to be!


My first thoughts upon hearing Liara talk about the Crucible on Mars were basically "Yeah, theres no way this thing is going to work."

Yknow, mainly cause I distinctly remember someone at Bioware saying we werent going to get a 'Reaper off switch', and thats exactly what the Crucible sounded like (and seems to have turned out to have been)

#52688
lex0r11

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Golferguy758 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Golferguy758 wrote...

Oh hi guys, How's it goin?


Oh hai golfergai! Yew arr looking especially beotefull and sexee todaeh.

YOU ARE TEARING ME APART INDOCTRINATION THEORY!

/Wiseau


Oh God, why? Not The Room! Anything but The Room!




Ohai, guys.

Modifié par lex0r11, 07 mai 2012 - 11:51 .


#52689
Earthborn_Shepard

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[quote]Golferguy758 wrote...

[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...

[quote]Golferguy758 wrote...

Oh hi guys, How's it goin?[/quote]

Oh hai golfergai! Yew arr looking especially beotefull and sexee todaeh.

YOU ARE TEARING ME APART INDOCTRINATION THEORY!

/Wiseau

[quote]

Oh God, why? Not The Room! Anything but The Room!

[/quote]



Ohai, guys.

[/quote]

You didn't get the promotion, did you?

Modifié par Earthborn_Shepard, 07 mai 2012 - 11:51 .


#52690
balance5050

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byne wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

I really, really hope that the Crucible does turn out to be a trap. My first reaction to it was that finding a super-secret-doomsday-weapon to destroy a nigh unkillable enemy was just a little too convenient to be true. Sure it could be somewhat-lazy writing, and I can live with that if it's true; but I would really love to see Bioware throw the mother of all plot twists at us, whatever that may happen to be!


My first thoughts upon hearing Liara talk about the Crucible on Mars were basically "Yeah, theres no way this thing is going to work."

Yknow, mainly cause I distinctly remember someone at Bioware saying we werent going to get a 'Reaper off switch', and thats exactly what the Crucible sounded like (and seems to have turned out to have been)


Bioware says contradictory things, the reapers say contradictory things. I.T. is one of the most fourth wall breaking things ever.

It's.... so meta.

#52691
Big Bad

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byne wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

I really, really hope that the Crucible does turn out to be a trap. My first reaction to it was that finding a super-secret-doomsday-weapon to destroy a nigh unkillable enemy was just a little too convenient to be true. Sure it could be somewhat-lazy writing, and I can live with that if it's true; but I would really love to see Bioware throw the mother of all plot twists at us, whatever that may happen to be!


My first thoughts upon hearing Liara talk about the Crucible on Mars were basically "Yeah, theres no way this thing is going to work."

Yknow, mainly cause I distinctly remember someone at Bioware saying we werent going to get a 'Reaper off switch', and thats exactly what the Crucible sounded like (and seems to have turned out to have been)


Yeah, the fact that so many things about the game appear to be the exact opposite of what was promised leaves me kind of suspicious.  Then again, maybe I'm just an optimist.  

#52692
MaximizedAction

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gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Reaper Indoctrination Device found...that is the Indoctriantion devices from the multiplayer. I have found one of them hanging on the wall in one of the rooms Ardat-Yakshi monestary. What is even more interesting is that it can be destroyed by shooting at it...why would a Indoctrination device be there if the Reapers simply hit the Monastery in force and captured the Ardat-Yakshi to change them outright?

Gonna keep an eye out for more.


What?? This is a pretty significant find!

Posted that about 1000 pages ago, no one reacted :P


That's a Barrier Generator, they give biotic barriers to Reaper ground troops much like the Shield Pylons do for Cerberus troops and can be destroyed to stop the effect. Multiplayer uses the same design for Indoctrination Devices that need to be deactivated during an objective wave. If you found something that looked like it on the Normandy, that would be a significant find, but as it is they exist only on missions and multiplayer.


With so much Reaper tech around the galaxy - even if passive or weak, it's a wonder that the races don't lay out a red carper for the Reapers...

Imagine, if you will, that the cellphone network would be Reaper tech. Think about how much exposure everyone has had...the only chance for survival: aluminum caps! :D

#52693
Salient Archer

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Salient Archer wrote...
*snip*

Alright, Archer.  I finally have the chance to respond to you.  If anyone else sees something they want to comment on, chime in.


1) Control as the default option, IT perspective=complete indoctrination: I can see what you're saying.  It's a good point.  The Reapers could be using a renegade Shep's tendency to achieve power (as evidenced in the previous ME's as a "humans first" mentality) as the very hook to catch him off-balance and indoctrinate him.  The paragon who chose to save the base simply out of not seeing a better option could likewise be enticed into thinking that their reservation in using the tech is the key to victory.  Considering this from both sides, a claim to personal responsibility or a drive to use your own power to enforce peace, can both be an explanation for Control to be the default choice for a Shepard who saves the Collector base.

I guess that’s always been my reasoning that if it’s being presented as a low EMS choice, than it must be tied into Shep’s morality and resolve. Hence, if Shepard was swayed to retain the collector base in ME2 than it actually makes more sense for the earliest option to be control rather than destroy.

2) As for this point, I would argue that although Shepard is indeed on the Citadel when the Crucible docks, the fact that the device docked with the Citadel has created a singular new system. Consequently, the construction of the Crucible would affect the choices Shepard has. 

True, it the Catalyst himself even says that it has changed him to some extent... interesting  side note with this is a Catalyst by it’s very definition is something that creates change but cannot be changed itself. So the StarChild is either not the catalyst or he’s full of crap.

1. Chemistry . a substance that causes or accelerates achemical reaction without itself being affected.
2. something that causes activity between two or more persons or forces without itself being affected.
3. a person or thing that precipitates an event or change: His imprisonment by the government served as the catalyst that helped transform social unrest into revolution.
4. a person whose talk, enthusiasm, or energy causes others to be more friendly, enthusiastic, or energetic.

Now, with point (2) I'm playing something of a devil's advocate.  After all, the Crucible construction factors in EMS points.  Since EMS is a score that also is raised by sparing Anderson, something that is motivational and can apparently affect the machine's functionality... this makes no sense.  But you know this 

yes, space magic at it’s most malevolent level. :P

In any case, I would like to take this moment to again point out my suspiscion that the Crucible is an indoctrination device on a scale never achieved before, and that the Reapers want us to use it. There has to be some reason for the Reapers to be amassing humans on the Citadel.  I think the Crucible combined with our genetic variance is the key to their ultimate weapon.  This could have severe implications for the ending...I'm thinking of starting a thread about about this idea

It’s funny that you say this, because after reading ME:Evolution this actually carries a fair bit of weight (if you haven’t read it, do yourself a favor because I think you’ll like how it ties into what you’re theory).

Also this actually could tie in perfectly with the Catalyst not being the StarChild but rather Shepard himself, which would also answer the question of why an already indoctrinated TIM wanted Shepard to be rebuilt perfectly and why the Collectors (Harbinger) wanted Shepard so badly in ME2. As illustrated in Harbingers quotes: “

Preserve Shepard's body if possible.”
“Neutralize Commander Shepard.”
“Focus on Shepard.”
“Shepard, you could have been useful.”
“You escaped us before, Shepard, not again.”
“You cannot escape your destiny, Shepard.”

Just some food for thought.

Modifié par Salient Archer, 07 mai 2012 - 11:53 .


#52694
MaximizedAction

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Big Bad wrote...

byne wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

I really, really hope that the Crucible does turn out to be a trap. My first reaction to it was that finding a super-secret-doomsday-weapon to destroy a nigh unkillable enemy was just a little too convenient to be true. Sure it could be somewhat-lazy writing, and I can live with that if it's true; but I would really love to see Bioware throw the mother of all plot twists at us, whatever that may happen to be!


My first thoughts upon hearing Liara talk about the Crucible on Mars were basically "Yeah, theres no way this thing is going to work."

Yknow, mainly cause I distinctly remember someone at Bioware saying we werent going to get a 'Reaper off switch', and thats exactly what the Crucible sounded like (and seems to have turned out to have been)


Yeah, the fact that so many things about the game appear to be the exact opposite of what was promised leaves me kind of suspicious.  Then again, maybe I'm just an optimist.  


Aren't we all, here?

#52695
byne

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Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

Golferguy758 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Golferguy758 wrote...

Oh hi guys, How's it goin?


Oh hai golfergai! Yew arr looking especially beotefull and sexee todaeh.

YOU ARE TEARING ME APART INDOCTRINATION THEORY!

/Wiseau


Oh God, why? Not The Room! Anything but The Room!




Ohai, guys.


You didn't get the promotion, did you?


Dammit you guys. Now I want to go watch the Nostalgia Critic's review of The Room again.

#52696
MegumiAzusa

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byne wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

I really, really hope that the Crucible does turn out to be a trap. My first reaction to it was that finding a super-secret-doomsday-weapon to destroy a nigh unkillable enemy was just a little too convenient to be true. Sure it could be somewhat-lazy writing, and I can live with that if it's true; but I would really love to see Bioware throw the mother of all plot twists at us, whatever that may happen to be!


My first thoughts upon hearing Liara talk about the Crucible on Mars were basically "Yeah, theres no way this thing is going to work."

Yknow, mainly cause I distinctly remember someone at Bioware saying we werent going to get a 'Reaper off switch', and thats exactly what the Crucible sounded like (and seems to have turned out to have been)

Also it's conveniently stored right next to Earth, organics may wish to take note.

#52697
Salient Archer

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Salient Archer wrote...

Lets play spot the similarities Firebase Ghost edition.

From Shepard Lives scene:
Posted Image
Posted Image

From Firebase Ghost:
Posted Image
Posted Image

PS: 'Shepard Lives' is a CGI rendered scene, which means all images are very deliberately decided upon and will not be reusing in-game textures or objects

Where as Firebase Ghost is naturally an in-game map.

Now I'm not saying that Shepard magically ended up in Firebase Ghost or anything like that, but what I am trying to get at is that the materials we see in the cinematic are of natural design and are clearly just cables and broken cement.


Boo, no-one played my game... :(

#52698
MegumiAzusa

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Salient Archer wrote...

Boo, no-one played my game... :(

This organic took note but hadn't anything to say :o

#52699
dreamgazer

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If/when the indoctrination theory proves to the correct, I think BioWare should release a sheet of "clues" that points other (non-believer) players in the direction of what to look for when navigating through the game---kinda like the DVD insert that's included with David Lynch's Mulholland Drive. I think it'd be slick if they actually printed the list out and tossed it in the GOTY edition, or whatever trilogy set gets released. Not really a profuse hand-holding guide like the first post in this thread, but a checklist of things to watch for when playing that allows the player to "get" it on their own with a little suggestion/shoulder-nudging.

If you could make a list of, say, ten or twelve straightforward things to keep an eye out for, what would they be?

#52700
Salient Archer

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The only reason I wanted to point it out was that Firebase Ghost is a human colony inside the Earth System Alliance.

From the wikia: Firebase Ghost is a multiplayer map in Mass Effect 3. It is located in a slum on Benning in the "Earth Systems Alliance Space" zone of the galaxy map.

Benning, the nearest garden world to Arcturus Station, is the station's primary food supply source and an important staging area for starship maintenance and repair. This makes reclaiming the planet a key part of any attempt to liberate the station, capital of the Systems Alliance.[1]

Which clearly proves the materials in the ending cinematic are human manmade materials not the materials used in the construction of the Citadel.