57139 réponses à ce sujet

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Salient Archer wrote...

The only reason I wanted to point it out was that Firebase Ghost is a human colony inside the Earth System Alliance.

From the wikia: Firebase Ghost is a multiplayer map in Mass Effect 3. It is located in a slum on Benning in the "Earth Systems Alliance Space" zone of the galaxy map.

Benning, the nearest garden world to Arcturus Station, is the station's primary food supply source and an important staging area for starship maintenance and repair. This makes reclaiming the planet a key part of any attempt to liberate the station, capital of the Systems Alliance.[1]

Which clearly proves the materials in the ending cinematic are human manmade materials not the materials used in the construction of the Citadel.

It's funner to play compare the London rubble to the Breath scene rubble. Trust me o_o (on view #213 of the Shepard Breath scene for anyone keeping score.)

[MegumiAzusa]

dreamgazer wrote...

If/when the indoctrination theory proves to the correct, I think BioWare should release a sheet of "clues" that points other (non-believer) players in the direction of what to look for when navigating through the game---kinda like the DVD insert that's included with David Lynch's Mulholland Drive. I think it'd be slick if they actually printed the list out and tossed it in the GOTY edition, or whatever trilogy set gets released. Not really a profuse hand-holding guide like the first post in this thread, but a checklist of things to watch for when playing that allows the player to "get" it on their own with a little suggestion/shoulder-nudging.

If you could make a list of, say, ten or twelve straightforward things to keep an eye out for, what would they be?

That would be quite interesting, but even if it's untrue I would say they placed some stuff intentionally to make the player think shep might be indoctrinated, which would also ask for such a list

[dreamgazer]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

If/when the indoctrination theory proves to the correct, I think BioWare should release a sheet of "clues" that points other (non-believer) players in the direction of what to look for when navigating through the game---kinda like the DVD insert that's included with David Lynch's Mulholland Drive. I think it'd be slick if they actually printed the list out and tossed it in the GOTY edition, or whatever trilogy set gets released. Not really a profuse hand-holding guide like the first post in this thread, but a checklist of things to watch for when playing that allows the player to "get" it on their own with a little suggestion/shoulder-nudging.

If you could make a list of, say, ten or twelve straightforward things to keep an eye out for, what would they be?

That would be quite interesting, but even if it's untrue I would say they placed some stuff intentionally to make the player think shep might be indoctrinated, which would also ask for such a list

I agree. (thumbs up)

[HellishFiend]

paxxton wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Wolfram Tarant wrote...

One other thing I've noticed, which I haven't seen mentioned before, is the fact that the game actually went out of it's way to explicitly tell the player that TIM chose not to implant Shepard with any sort of control device. Miranda tells you this on the Citadel, and if I remember correctly, there's mention of it while on Cronos Station as well... and both times it's treated as some kind of over dramatic revelation, which I thought was strange until the final scene... if Shepard was made to shoot Anderson by TIM through his implants then why did the writers go so far out of their way to tell you that Cerberus absolutely didn't embed some kind of control device in Shepard during the Lazarus Project? :/

Or maybe I'm just overlooking something?

Hm, good point.
Does Cerberus' indoctrination require implants for the 'indoctrinee' or only for the indoctrinator (like TIM)?

If yes then this indeed seems contradictory.

This is a good moment to remember nanides. I put forward this theory some time ago. Basically, TIM spreads nanides in the air and controls others through them. This explains the black tendrils on the Citadel.

If ever there was a case of "headcanon" in this thread, this whole nanite/nanide business is it. It never comes up in the game, so why would it be a major factor at any point? How could you possibly think nanides are more likely than the Indoctrination Theory? Indoctrination must get a thousand mentions across the trilogy. I never heard the word nanide once. Indoctrination is always about changing one's perspective and thought process, not about controlling their physical movements. And yet suddenly the very nature of indoctrination is supposed to change at the very end of the trilogy?

Put 2 and 2 together here. Stop looking for less likely explanations when a far more likely explanation is staring you in the face. 

[Salient Archer]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

The only reason I wanted to point it out was that Firebase Ghost is a human colony inside the Earth System Alliance.

From the wikia: Firebase Ghost is a multiplayer map in Mass Effect 3. It is located in a slum on Benning in the "Earth Systems Alliance Space" zone of the galaxy map.

Benning, the nearest garden world to Arcturus Station, is the station's primary food supply source and an important staging area for starship maintenance and repair. This makes reclaiming the planet a key part of any attempt to liberate the station, capital of the Systems Alliance.[1]

Which clearly proves the materials in the ending cinematic are human manmade materials not the materials used in the construction of the Citadel.

It's funner to play compare the London rubble to the Breath scene rubble. Trust me o_o (on view #213 of the Shepard Breath scene for anyone keeping score.)

Gunslinger, you have no idea how much I admire your dedication and discipline. I think I only watched it like 10 times in a row before I developed the urge to stab myself in the eye.

[HellishFiend]

MaximizedAction wrote...

Big Bad wrote...


Yeah, the fact that so many things about the game appear to be the exact opposite of what was promised leaves me kind of suspicious.  Then again, maybe I'm just an optimist.  

Aren't we all, here?

I've never understood the prejudice against optimism, personally. 

[balance5050]

HellishFiend wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Big Bad wrote...


Yeah, the fact that so many things about the game appear to be the exact opposite of what was promised leaves me kind of suspicious.  Then again, maybe I'm just an optimist.  

Aren't we all, here?

I've never understood the prejudice against optimism, personally. 

Being negative is hip and edgy, and some people are just rageaholics.

Modifié par balance5050, 08 mai 2012 - 12:20 .

[HellishFiend]

dreamgazer wrote...

If/when the indoctrination theory proves to the correct, I think BioWare should release a sheet of "clues" that points other (non-believer) players in the direction of what to look for when navigating through the game---kinda like the DVD insert that's included with David Lynch's Mulholland Drive. I think it'd be slick if they actually printed the list out and tossed it in the GOTY edition, or whatever trilogy set gets released. Not really a profuse hand-holding guide like the first post in this thread, but a checklist of things to watch for when playing that allows the player to "get" it on their own with a little suggestion/shoulder-nudging.

If you could make a list of, say, ten or twelve straightforward things to keep an eye out for, what would they be?

I'm counting on Bioware to come up with definitive proof that IT was their intended plan all along. I'm not looking forward to trolls having any ground to stand on to say "They just caved for the fans! They stole the fancanon and made it their own!" etc.  That being said, that definitive proof would hopefully come with a list of things that were meant to be interpreted as signs. 

[DJBare]

bigstig wrote...
If you assume TIM is controlling via some form of indoctrination he has somehow cured the side effect of indoctrination In as much as both Shepard and Anderson retain their minds which goes against everything we know so the literal interpretation TIM not only cracks reaper tech but improves on it? It's just not possible

Can we, hummm, just get something cleared up, assuming that anything is even real during the discussions between Shepard, Anderson and TIM, we learned later the Reapers already controlled TIM, so if anyone was controlling Shepard and Anderson, it was not TIM, he was just a conduite.

[dreamgazer]

HellishFiend wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Big Bad wrote...


Yeah, the fact that so many things about the game appear to be the exact opposite of what was promised leaves me kind of suspicious.  Then again, maybe I'm just an optimist.  

Aren't we all, here?

I've never understood the prejudice against optimism, personally. 

Some think it means that you're blind to truth and reframe reality to suit you needs.  They're wrong, of course (serial optimist with a side of realist---here). 

[HellishFiend]

dreamgazer wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Big Bad wrote...


Yeah, the fact that so many things about the game appear to be the exact opposite of what was promised leaves me kind of suspicious.  Then again, maybe I'm just an optimist.  

Aren't we all, here?

I've never understood the prejudice against optimism, personally. 

Some think it means that you're blind to truth and reframe reality to suit you needs.  They're wrong, of course (serial optimist with a side of realist---here). 

Being blind to truth is being naive, not optimistic. There is not even any truth here to be blind to. Just speculation. I think that some people may just fail to realize that there is a stark difference between optimism and naivety. 

[dreamgazer]

HellishFiend wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

If/when the indoctrination theory proves to the correct, I think BioWare should release a sheet of "clues" that points other (non-believer) players in the direction of what to look for when navigating through the game---kinda like the DVD insert that's included with David Lynch's Mulholland Drive. I think it'd be slick if they actually printed the list out and tossed it in the GOTY edition, or whatever trilogy set gets released. Not really a profuse hand-holding guide like the first post in this thread, but a checklist of things to watch for when playing that allows the player to "get" it on their own with a little suggestion/shoulder-nudging.

If you could make a list of, say, ten or twelve straightforward things to keep an eye out for, what would they be?

I'm counting on Bioware to come up with definitive proof that IT was their intended plan all along. I'm not looking forward to trolls having any ground to stand on to say "They just caved for the fans! They stole the fancanon and made it their own!" etc.  That being said, that definitive proof would hopefully come with a list of things that were meant to be interpreted as signs. 

Yeah, I'm pretty certain that's unfortunately going to happen, no matter how concrete the EC makes it.  The only thing that'd appease them is a signed and notarized document written pre-2011 that states, explicitly, "We're going to indoctrinate Shepard in the final game."  It's a shame. 

[DJBare]

HellishFiend wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

If/when the indoctrination theory proves to the correct, I think BioWare should release a sheet of "clues" that points other (non-believer) players in the direction of what to look for when navigating through the game---kinda like the DVD insert that's included with David Lynch's Mulholland Drive. I think it'd be slick if they actually printed the list out and tossed it in the GOTY edition, or whatever trilogy set gets released. Not really a profuse hand-holding guide like the first post in this thread, but a checklist of things to watch for when playing that allows the player to "get" it on their own with a little suggestion/shoulder-nudging.

If you could make a list of, say, ten or twelve straightforward things to keep an eye out for, what would they be?

I'm counting on Bioware to come up with definitive proof that IT was their intended plan all along. I'm not looking forward to trolls having any ground to stand on to say "They just caved for the fans! They stole the fancanon and made it their own!" etc.  That being said, that definitive proof would hopefully come with a list of things that were meant to be interpreted as signs. 

IT was their intended plan, they dropped it because of engine problems with control and dialogue.

[dreamgazer]

HellishFiend wrote...

Being blind to truth is being naive, not optimistic. There is not even any truth here to be blind to. Just speculation. I think that some people may just fail to realize that there is a stark difference between optimism and naivety. 

Currently there's not "truth", no---only facts that tie to the lore and codexes, and logical interpretation.  And there is a stark difference between the two, but many immediately lump the two together, almost as a positive correlation. 

[HellishFiend]

dreamgazer wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


I'm counting on Bioware to come up with definitive proof that IT was their intended plan all along. I'm not looking forward to trolls having any ground to stand on to say "They just caved for the fans! They stole the fancanon and made it their own!" etc.  That being said, that definitive proof would hopefully come with a list of things that were meant to be interpreted as signs. 

Yeah, I'm pretty certain that's unfortunately going to happen, no matter how concrete the EC makes it.  The only thing that'd appease them is a signed and notarized document written pre-2011 that states, explicitly, "We're going to indoctrinate Shepard in the final game."  It's a shame. 

Right, but if the EC makes it sufficently and logically "concrete", then we can more easily write the naysayers off as trolls and not bother with them at all. If they dont make it concrete, there are going to be a lot of people questioning it, and it will be hard to pick out the trolls from the ones with honest questions. 

[HellishFiend]

DJBare wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


I'm counting on Bioware to come up with definitive proof that IT was their intended plan all along. I'm not looking forward to trolls having any ground to stand on to say "They just caved for the fans! They stole the fancanon and made it their own!" etc.  That being said, that definitive proof would hopefully come with a list of things that were meant to be interpreted as signs. 

IT was their intended plan, they dropped it because of engine problems with control and dialogue.

That is somewhat of a misnomer. Remember IT is the theory that the player has been indoctrinated without their knowledge. If Bioware had gone with a gameplay form of indoctrination like Final Hours said was on the table, there would be no IT, just a literal ending. 

[Salient Archer]

dreamgazer wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

If/when the indoctrination theory proves to the correct, I think BioWare should release a sheet of "clues" that points other (non-believer) players in the direction of what to look for when navigating through the game---kinda like the DVD insert that's included with David Lynch's Mulholland Drive. I think it'd be slick if they actually printed the list out and tossed it in the GOTY edition, or whatever trilogy set gets released. Not really a profuse hand-holding guide like the first post in this thread, but a checklist of things to watch for when playing that allows the player to "get" it on their own with a little suggestion/shoulder-nudging.

If you could make a list of, say, ten or twelve straightforward things to keep an eye out for, what would they be?

I'm counting on Bioware to come up with definitive proof that IT was their intended plan all along. I'm not looking forward to trolls having any ground to stand on to say "They just caved for the fans! They stole the fancanon and made it their own!" etc.  That being said, that definitive proof would hopefully come with a list of things that were meant to be interpreted as signs. 

Yeah, I'm pretty certain that's unfortunately going to happen, no matter how concrete the EC makes it.  The only thing that'd appease them is a signed and notarized document written pre-2011 that states, explicitly, "We're going to indoctrinate Shepard in the final game."  It's a shame. 

But there is some proof already, they said they were going to do it already: They mention it in an interview with Geoff Keighley in the book "The Final Hours of Mass Effect 3". They said there was going to be a game mechanic that took over but they found it too hard to implement and so they had to remove it for the section, but they never actually say that they scrapped him being indoctrinated.

I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in "The Art of the Mass Effect universe" as well.

EDIT: Corrected my poor grammar and spelling.

Modifié par Salient Archer, 08 mai 2012 - 12:32 .

[DJBare]

Guess I will have to post it again, from the Final Hours app

Whether they decide to pick it up again in the EC remains to be seen.

[dreamgazer]

HellishFiend wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


I'm counting on Bioware to come up with definitive proof that IT was their intended plan all along. I'm not looking forward to trolls having any ground to stand on to say "They just caved for the fans! They stole the fancanon and made it their own!" etc.  That being said, that definitive proof would hopefully come with a list of things that were meant to be interpreted as signs. 

Yeah, I'm pretty certain that's unfortunately going to happen, no matter how concrete the EC makes it.  The only thing that'd appease them is a signed and notarized document written pre-2011 that states, explicitly, "We're going to indoctrinate Shepard in the final game."  It's a shame. 

Right, but if the EC makes it sufficently and logically "concrete", then we can more easily write the naysayers off as trolls and not bother with them at all. If they dont make it concrete, there are going to be a lot of people questioning it, and it will be hard to pick out the trolls from the ones with honest questions. 

That's a reality I'm actually preparing for: that they're going to implement intelligent non-committal exposition that will neither confirm nor deny the theory---only, possibly, heavily imply it further.  They seem set on leaving things up to interpretation and letting this addendum speak for itself.  

[Salient Archer]

DJBare wrote...

Guess I will have to post it again, from the Final Hours app

Whether they decide to pick it up again in the EC remains to be seen.

but yet it never mentions that they scrapped Shepard being indoctrinated, but it does prove that he always was going to be.

[HellishFiend]

dreamgazer wrote...


That's a reality I'm actually preparing for: that they're going to implement intelligent non-committal exposition that will neither confirm nor deny the theory---only, possibly, heavily imply it further.  They seem set on leaving things up to interpretation and letting this addendum speak for itself.  

I highly, highly doubt that. They explicitly stated (in their own words) that there will be no unanswered questions when all is said and done. We're in limbo right now until the EC comes out, but once it does (unless they have another follow up DLC planned after it), things should be definitively wrapped up, if they stick to their promises. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 08 mai 2012 - 12:37 .

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Salient Archer wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

The only reason I wanted to point it out was that Firebase Ghost is a human colony inside the Earth System Alliance.

From the wikia: Firebase Ghost is a multiplayer map in Mass Effect 3. It is located in a slum on Benning in the "Earth Systems Alliance Space" zone of the galaxy map.

Benning, the nearest garden world to Arcturus Station, is the station's primary food supply source and an important staging area for starship maintenance and repair. This makes reclaiming the planet a key part of any attempt to liberate the station, capital of the Systems Alliance.[1]

Which clearly proves the materials in the ending cinematic are human manmade materials not the materials used in the construction of the Citadel.

It's funner to play compare the London rubble to the Breath scene rubble. Trust me o_o (on view #213 of the Shepard Breath scene for anyone keeping score.)

Gunslinger, you have no idea how much I admire your dedication and discipline. I think I only watched it like 10 times in a row before I developed the urge to stab myself in the eye.

213 is a rough estimation, its proabbly more like 150-200, but I lost count a long time ago. Despite watching it so many times I'm still no closer to saying, definitively, where it is located. There are objects I can say for certain are from Earth (the rubble) and others that I can say for certain are from the Citadel (the Reaper cables) and at least 4 prominent structures I can't identify as being in the game before hand.

[paxxton]

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Wolfram Tarant wrote...

One other thing I've noticed, which I haven't seen mentioned before, is the fact that the game actually went out of it's way to explicitly tell the player that TIM chose not to implant Shepard with any sort of control device. Miranda tells you this on the Citadel, and if I remember correctly, there's mention of it while on Cronos Station as well... and both times it's treated as some kind of over dramatic revelation, which I thought was strange until the final scene... if Shepard was made to shoot Anderson by TIM through his implants then why did the writers go so far out of their way to tell you that Cerberus absolutely didn't embed some kind of control device in Shepard during the Lazarus Project? :/

Or maybe I'm just overlooking something?

Hm, good point.
Does Cerberus' indoctrination require implants for the 'indoctrinee' or only for the indoctrinator (like TIM)?

If yes then this indeed seems contradictory.

This is a good moment to remember nanides. I put forward this theory some time ago. Basically, TIM spreads nanides in the air and controls others through them. This explains the black tendrils on the Citadel.

If ever there was a case of "headcanon" in this thread, this whole nanite/nanide business is it. It never comes up in the game, so why would it be a major factor at any point? How could you possibly think nanides are more likely than the Indoctrination Theory? Indoctrination must get a thousand mentions across the trilogy. I never heard the word nanide once. Indoctrination is always about changing one's perspective and thought process, not about controlling their physical movements. And yet suddenly the very nature of indoctrination is supposed to change at the very end of the trilogy?

Put 2 and 2 together here. Stop looking for less likely explanations when a far more likely explanation is staring you in the face. 

 I didn't mean to disprove IT. Thought processes in the brain are physical. Nanides explain how technically indoctrination works. Shooting sonic waves or putting someone in an electromagnetic field causes physical changes in the body and through that changes in behavior (at least that's how it'd work in the ME universe). Using those means the Reapers can control nanides. They are used to rapidly gain control over Shepard's movements (hence the black tendrils - nanides inhaled by Shepard). Nanides are also used in Dragon's Teeth. Husks are the final stage of indoctrination. Dragon's Teeth probably inject massive amounts of nanides into a body whereas there is a limit on how much Shepard can inhale in a given time. Hence he's not turned into a husk instantly.

Even if this is a hallucination, I think it's better to have a technical explanation for what can be seen there.

Modifié par paxxton, 08 mai 2012 - 12:43 .

[HellishFiend]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

213 is a rough estimation, its proabbly more like 150-200, but I lost count a long time ago. Despite watching it so many times I'm still no closer to saying, definitively, where it is located. There are objects I can say for certain are from Earth (the rubble) and others that I can say for certain are from the Citadel (the Reaper cables) and at least 4 prominent structures I can't identify as being in the game before hand.

If IT is Bioware's plan, it stands to reason that they would make sure there was no definitive proof in that scene as to where it takes place. If there was, it would have been discovered in the first week, or perhaps even before the game officially hit shelves, and all their hard work would have been ruined. 

[dreamgazer]

Salient Archer wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

If/when the indoctrination theory proves to the correct, I think BioWare should release a sheet of "clues" that points other (non-believer) players in the direction of what to look for when navigating through the game---kinda like the DVD insert that's included with David Lynch's Mulholland Drive. I think it'd be slick if they actually printed the list out and tossed it in the GOTY edition, or whatever trilogy set gets released. Not really a profuse hand-holding guide like the first post in this thread, but a checklist of things to watch for when playing that allows the player to "get" it on their own with a little suggestion/shoulder-nudging.

If you could make a list of, say, ten or twelve straightforward things to keep an eye out for, what would they be?

I'm counting on Bioware to come up with definitive proof that IT was their intended plan all along. I'm not looking forward to trolls having any ground to stand on to say "They just caved for the fans! They stole the fancanon and made it their own!" etc. That being said, that definitive proof would hopefully come with a list of things that were meant to be interpreted as signs.

Yeah, I'm pretty certain that's unfortunately going to happen, no matter how concrete the EC makes it. The only thing that'd appease them is a signed and notarized document written pre-2011 that states, explicitly, "We're going to indoctrinate Shepard in the final game." It's a shame.

But there is some proof already, they said they were going to do it already: They mention it in an interview with Geoff Keighley in the book "The Final Hours of Mass Effect 3". They said there was going to be a game mechanic that took over but they found it too hard to implement and so they had to remove it for the section, but they never actually say that they scrapped him being indoctrinated.

I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in "The Art of the Mass Effect universe" as well.

EDIT: Corrected my poor grammar and spelling.

Bear in mind: I'm open to the theory and hoping it to be accurate while saying what I'm saying.

The Final Hours app illustrates that they heavily considered and tinkered with the idea, but it also shows intent on removing it. Many people I've seen around the forum use the content DJBare posted as evidence that unequivocally disproves that BioWare included IT in the game. I see motive, at the very least, and the potential for a red herring to lead people into thinking that they really didn't use it for this mysterious conclusion of theirs. It's not, and won't be, evidence enough to knee-cap naysayers.