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[HellishFiend]

paxxton wrote...

 I didn't mean to disprove IT. Thought processes in the brain are physical. Nanides explain how technically indoctrination works. Shooting sonic waves or putting someone in an electromagnetic field causes physical changes in the body and through that changes in behavior (at least that's how it'd work in the ME universe). Using those means the Reapers can control nanides. They are used to rapidly gain control over Shepard's movements (hence the black tendrils - nanides inhaled by Shepard). Nanides are also used in Dragon's Teeth. Husks are the final stage of indoctrination. Dragon's Teeth probably inject massive amounts of nanides into a body whereas there is a limit on how much Shepard can inhale in a given time. Hence he's not turned into a husk instantly.

Even if this is a hallucination, I think it's better to have a technical explanation for what can be seen there.

And I strongly disagree with that technical explanation. I'm quite certain it's wrong. It's well-established that in order to exert more direct control over an indoctrinated subject, higher mental functions are devastated in the process. I'm quite positive its not possible for Shepards movements to be controlled in such a manner and still be Shepard afterwards, barring any retconning or space magic. 

[dreamgazer]

HellishFiend wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...


That's a reality I'm actually preparing for: that they're going to implement intelligent non-committal exposition that will neither confirm nor deny the theory---only, possibly, heavily imply it further.  They seem set on leaving things up to interpretation and letting this addendum speak for itself.  

I highly, highly doubt that. They explicitly stated (in their own words) that there will be no unanswered questions when all is said and done. We're in limbo right now until the EC comes out, but once it does (unless they have another follow up DLC planned after it), things should be definitively wrapped up, if they stick to their promises. 

There's also the quote from PAX about how they don't want to limit people's interpretation. 

I personally hope you're right, but it's going to ruffle a lot of anti-IT, anti-ender feathers if it ends up being the case. Lots of people are out there right now claiming they received an incomplete game, and that'll give them the evidence they need to take the next steps in their raging.

[HellishFiend]

dreamgazer wrote...

There's also the quote from PAX about how they don't want to limit people's interpretation. 

I personally hope you're right, but it's going to ruffle a lot of anti-IT, anti-ender feathers if it ends up being the case. Lots of people are out there right now claiming they received an incomplete game, and that'll give them the evidence they need to take the next steps in their raging.

I took that statement as meaning they didnt want to limit people's interpretation before the EC comes out. Why would they say all questions will be answered and wrapped up in ME3, only to all of a sudden claim to want to preserve the ability to interpret a vague ending? Their behavior all points towards IT, in my mind. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 08 mai 2012 - 12:48 .

[paxxton]

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

 I didn't mean to disprove IT. Thought processes in the brain are physical. Nanides explain how technically indoctrination works. Shooting sonic waves or putting someone in an electromagnetic field causes physical changes in the body and through that changes in behavior (at least that's how it'd work in the ME universe). Using those means the Reapers can control nanides. They are used to rapidly gain control over Shepard's movements (hence the black tendrils - nanides inhaled by Shepard). Nanides are also used in Dragon's Teeth. Husks are the final stage of indoctrination. Dragon's Teeth probably inject massive amounts of nanides into a body whereas there is a limit on how much Shepard can inhale in a given time. Hence he's not turned into a husk instantly.

Even if this is a hallucination, I think it's better to have a technical explanation for what can be seen there.

And I strongly disagree with that technical explanation. I'm quite certain it's wrong. It's well-established that in order to exert more direct control over an indoctrinated subject, higher mental functions are devastated in the process. I'm quite positive its not possible for Shepards movements to be controlled in such a manner and still be Shepard afterwards, barring any retconning or space magic. 

Reapers use nanides. It is confirmed in one of the logs on Sanctuary.

By the Codex entry: "Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks." IT states that Shepard was being indoctrinated for a longer time. What happens on the Citadel is the peak moment of indoctrination. It can be considered as long-term indoctrination. Even if it's a rapid indoctrination, it still would have to last days, not minutes/hours as the TIM and Catalyst scenes do.

Besides, if Shepard chooses Control/Synthesis, his body decays and he's turned into a husk. If he chooses Destroy, indoctrination is interrupted and it should be logically assumed that the decay doesn't happen.

Modifié par paxxton, 08 mai 2012 - 01:19 .

[gunslinger_ruiz]

HellishFiend wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

213 is a rough estimation, its proabbly more like 150-200, but I lost count a long time ago. Despite watching it so many times I'm still no closer to saying, definitively, where it is located. There are objects I can say for certain are from Earth (the rubble) and others that I can say for certain are from the Citadel (the Reaper cables) and at least 4 prominent structures I can't identify as being in the game before hand.

If IT is Bioware's plan, it stands to reason that they would make sure there was no definitive proof in that scene as to where it takes place. If there was, it would have been discovered in the first week, or perhaps even before the game officially hit shelves, and all their hard work would have been ruined. 

That's probably why I can't get a handle on where it takes place. I'm positive the rubble is all from London, you can see the exact patterns throughout the game level. I'm positive the Reaper cables are all from  the Citadel since you don't see them on the Earth, or at least I can't find them on Earth. The "Reaper plates" could be from the Beam structure, and in that sense so could the cables. The "vehicle" in the background could be a wall segment from the Citadel, or an Alliance tranport. The object on the right of and behind Shepard's body could be a building in the distance, oddly designed stairs, or a shelf. The object on the left behind Shepard's body could be a...not sure the word for it, an engine? a propeller? The things a gunship uses to fly. But it looks too much like Reaper tech to be one and I can't place where I've seen it elsewhere. I don't think it's part of the "decision chamber" options, the patterns and shapes don't match.

[MaximizedAction]

This has been mentioned here, I think, but I just rewatched the scenes before the beam run and only now noticed:

When Anderson tells Shepard about how Harbinger's on his way, Shepard looks DIRECTLY into the camera for less than a second when repeating the name. Haven't noticed something like that in the game before.
Maybe when Admiral Anderson says "You're indoctrinated" he kinda looks to the camera's direction.
But here...his eyes are looking right at me with this scared expression....creepy lvl N7...

Kudos to BW for really getting the facial expressions right.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 08 mai 2012 - 01:31 .

[Simon_Says]

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

 I didn't mean to disprove IT. Thought processes in the brain are physical. Nanides explain how technically indoctrination works. Shooting sonic waves or putting someone in an electromagnetic field causes physical changes in the body and through that changes in behavior (at least that's how it'd work in the ME universe). Using those means the Reapers can control nanides. They are used to rapidly gain control over Shepard's movements (hence the black tendrils - nanides inhaled by Shepard). Nanides are also used in Dragon's Teeth. Husks are the final stage of indoctrination. Dragon's Teeth probably inject massive amounts of nanides into a body whereas there is a limit on how much Shepard can inhale in a given time. Hence he's not turned into a husk instantly.

Even if this is a hallucination, I think it's better to have a technical explanation for what can be seen there.

And I strongly disagree with that technical explanation. I'm quite certain it's wrong. It's well-established that in order to exert more direct control over an indoctrinated subject, higher mental functions are devastated in the process. I'm quite positive its not possible for Shepards movements to be controlled in such a manner and still be Shepard afterwards, barring any retconning or space magic.

Reapers use nanides. It is confirmed in one of the logs on Sanctuary.

By the Codex entry: "Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks." IT states that Shepard was being indoctrinated for a longer time. What happens on the Citadel is the peak moment of indoctrination. It can be considered as long-term indoctrination. Even if it's a rapid indoctrination, it still would have to last days, not minutes/hours as the TIM and Catalyst scenes do.

Besides, if Shepard chooses Control/Synthesis, his body decays and he's turned into a husk. If he chooses Destroy, indoctrination is interrupted and it should be logically assumed that the decay doesn't happen.

Except that nanides aren't needed. We already have the prothean beacons. Technology that can do spooky psychic action at a distance. If the reapers didn't already possess more powerful and sophisticated versions of this technology they probably could replicate and enhance it in the intervening 50 millenia.

And guess what, we're already getting there ourselves. And yes, you can control a person's motor control in similar ways.

That's not to say that nanotech infection hasn't been used as a form of indoctrination. (See: Paul Grayson) But the effects of that particular indoctrination case do not match what we see of Saren, TIM, Benezia, Thanoptis, etc. This suggests that there are multiple forms of indoctrination, as well as different approaches and degrees thereof. I had a theory about 'the indoctrination spectrum' earlier. I may bother to update it with more thorough analysis one of these days.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 08 mai 2012 - 01:40 .

[paxxton]

MaximizedAction wrote...

This has been mentioned here, I think, but I just rewatched the scenes before the beam run and only now noticed:

When Anderson tells Shepard about how Harbinger's on his way, Shepard looks DIRECTLY into the camera for less than a second when repeating the name. Haven't noticed something like that in the game before.
Maybe when Admiral Anderson says "You're indoctrinated" he kinda looks to the camera's direction.
But here...his eyes are looking right at me with this scared expression....creepy lvl N7...

Kudos to BW for really getting the facial expressions properly.

Smile! You're on candid camera!

[TheConstantOne]

Everyone, I finally started a thread on the Crucible idea I mentioned. The link is here:
http://social.biowar.../index/11927029

Any feedback on the idea is welcome

[Afalstein]

I have one major problem with the indoctrination theory. Well, okay, two.

The smaller concern is this--none of the indoctrinated individuals we've met have ever mentioned anything like the process Shepherd is going through here. Not Saren, not the salarian fanatics, not the Cerberus personnel in the dead Reaper, not the scientists in "Arrival." Nothing. Never a mention of any glowing boys or choices between controlling, destroying, etc. And none of them thought they were dead, like (presumably) Shepherd does at the end. Most of them aren't even aware that anything has happened at all.

The major problem I have, though, is the idea of when the hallucination begins--at the moment when Shepherd wakes up from the blast. Now, I was aware that an indoctrination theory existed (though not its specifics, obviously), so when he woke up then, it did occur to me that that would be a good diverging point.

Except then you have the Illusive Man scene. Why? Why would Reapers, trying to indoctrinate Shepherd, show him an images of his mentor and his enemy, pitting one against the other? Why would they have the enemy take their side and FORCE Shepherd to attack him? You can't pass that scene unless you actually shoot the Illusive Man or convince him to shoot himself. What does that represent in the Reaper-induced hallucination?

If everything from the blast is a hallucination, wouldn't it be simpler to just have the Conduit take Shepherd straight to the god-child and the decision? If there was a point between the Illusive Man showdown and the god-child scene where Shepherd blacked out, I'd be more willing to use that as the hallucinatory point, but there's nothing. Either the showdown is real, or its a completely pointless divergence in the Reaper's indoctrination hallucination.

[Unschuld]

Afalstein wrote...
Except then you have the Illusive Man scene. Why? Why would Reapers, trying to indoctrinate Shepherd, show him an images of his mentor and his enemy, pitting one against the other? Why would they have the enemy take their side and FORCE Shepherd to attack him? You can't pass that scene unless you actually shoot the Illusive Man or convince him to shoot himself. What does that represent in the Reaper-induced hallucination?

If everything from the blast is a hallucination, wouldn't it be simpler to just have the Conduit take Shepherd straight to the god-child and the decision? If there was a point between the Illusive Man showdown and the god-child scene where Shepherd blacked out, I'd be more willing to use that as the hallucinatory point, but there's nothing. Either the showdown is real, or its a completely pointless divergence in the Reaper's indoctrination hallucination.

I'm pretty sure the theory goes that although the hallucination is either reaper influenced/induced, the scene with Shepard, TIM, and Anderson is not the reapers DIRECTLY trying to influence Shepard. TIM and the Anderson (!!!) are supposed to represent two facets of Shepard's own personality. The reason the scene progresses from there to the crucible choice scene is because that fails (otherwise you get a game over screen if your indoctrinated half 'wins' the arguement). So the catalyst in the next scene is the reapers/Harbinger actually pressing harder, more directly, to see if they can convince/stop Shepard.

That's how I percieve the theory to go anyways.

Modifié par Unschuld, 08 mai 2012 - 02:10 .

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Afalstein wrote...

I have one major problem with the indoctrination theory. Well, okay, two.

The smaller concern is this--none of the indoctrinated individuals we've met have ever mentioned anything like the process Shepherd is going through here. Not Saren, not the salarian fanatics, not the Cerberus personnel in the dead Reaper, not the scientists in "Arrival." Nothing. Never a mention of any glowing boys or choices between controlling, destroying, etc. And none of them thought they were dead, like (presumably) Shepherd does at the end. Most of them aren't even aware that anything has happened at all.

The major problem I have, though, is the idea of when the hallucination begins--at the moment when Shepherd wakes up from the blast. Now, I was aware that an indoctrination theory existed (though not its specifics, obviously), so when he woke up then, it did occur to me that that would be a good diverging point.

Except then you have the Illusive Man scene. Why? Why would Reapers, trying to indoctrinate Shepherd, show him an images of his mentor and his enemy, pitting one against the other? Why would they have the enemy take their side and FORCE Shepherd to attack him? You can't pass that scene unless you actually shoot the Illusive Man or convince him to shoot himself. What does that represent in the Reaper-induced hallucination?

If everything from the blast is a hallucination, wouldn't it be simpler to just have the Conduit take Shepherd straight to the god-child and the decision? If there was a point between the Illusive Man showdown and the god-child scene where Shepherd blacked out, I'd be more willing to use that as the hallucinatory point, but there's nothing. Either the showdown is real, or its a completely pointless divergence in the Reaper's indoctrination hallucination.

You're making my head hurt. But here we go.

First. S-H-E-P-A-R-D.

Second. And no time in the trilogy do you ever have a chance to engage in conversation about the process of indoctrination with indocrinated individuals, they are either too busy trying to kill you, trying to trick you, or outright lying to you, and NONE of them think they're indoctrinated until it's far too late at which point they either slip further into denial or put a bullet in their head. It is a distinct possibility that Shepard is the only organic is galactic history to be able to resist Indoctrination on a level enough to remain fully functional until Harbinger grazes him/her and brings Shepard close to death. The hallucination (if the Theory is true) we see can very well be something Saren and The Illusive Man went through during their indoctrination but we never hear about this because it happens behind the scenes (warning, that was heavy speculation). Moreover, we DO hear certain symptons that Shepard has in passing through the Derelict Reaper from the Cerberus personel recordings, or during the Arrival DLC; complaints of headaches or stress, seeing things that aren't there, having reaccuring Nightmares.

Moving on.

The hallucination CAN begin right when you get up after Harbingers beam. Or it could begin when you step into the Citadel beam. Or it could begin after you get on to the Citadel. Or it could begin when you pass out after the Illusive Man encounter. The Theory is strong but not complete, keep an open mind as there are many possibilities.

As for the Illusive Man being in that scene, after your hallucination (if starts prior to the encounter) it's possible TIM is the one who initiated Shepard's indoctrination attempt and therefore would be central to the hallucination/struggle over his willpower. Anderson's present has been debated as possibly being a manifestation of Shepard's willpower. Try to think of it this way; the Reapers have Tried to indoctrinate Shepard and have so far failed. Only AFTER nearly killing him/her with a Reaper cannon, and AFTER using The Illusive Man as a direct control signal booster, and AFTER killing a large portion of Shepard's willpower (Anderson) do they present you with the Catalyst conversation and three "choices". The Destroy option being presented only because Shepard's mind is still too strong to completley indoctrinate, control and synthesis being paths to forms of becoming a Reaper indoctrinated slave.

[Afalstein]

Unschuld wrote...

I'm pretty sure the theory goes that although the hallucination is either reaper influenced/induced, the scene with Shepard, TIM, and Anderson is not the reapers DIRECTLY trying to influence Shepard. TIM and the Illusive man are supposed to represent two facets of Shepard's own personality. The reason the scene progresses from there to the crucible choice scene is because that fails (otherwise you get a game over screen if your indoctrinated half 'wins' the arguement). So the catalyst in the next scene is the reapers/Harbinger actually pressing harder, more directly, to see if they can convince/stop Shepard.

That's how I percieve the theory to go anyways.

That makes a bit more sense, except there hasn't really been much up to that point to suggest there's a part of Shepherd that sympathizes with the Illusive Man.  There's a part of him that thinks the Reapers are unbeatable, perhaps, but he never really seems to even consider TIM's "control" scheme.  And you don't even have to agree with TIM to lose that portion.  So why is agreement necessary in the next part?

Plus, it seems odd that being indoctrinated in the first section kills you (in the illusion), but makes you think you won in the second.  Shouldn't the first have been a bit more clever than that?  Make you think you were really working alongside the Illusive Man and actually controlling the Reapers like he said?

[InnerTurmoil]

Unschuld wrote...

Afalstein wrote...
Except then you have the Illusive Man scene. Why? Why would Reapers, trying to indoctrinate Shepherd, show him an images of his mentor and his enemy, pitting one against the other? Why would they have the enemy take their side and FORCE Shepherd to attack him? You can't pass that scene unless you actually shoot the Illusive Man or convince him to shoot himself. What does that represent in the Reaper-induced hallucination?

If everything from the blast is a hallucination, wouldn't it be simpler to just have the Conduit take Shepherd straight to the god-child and the decision? If there was a point between the Illusive Man showdown and the god-child scene where Shepherd blacked out, I'd be more willing to use that as the hallucinatory point, but there's nothing. Either the showdown is real, or its a completely pointless divergence in the Reaper's indoctrination hallucination.

I'm pretty sure the theory goes that although the hallucination is either reaper influenced/induced, the scene with Shepard, TIM, and Anderson is not the reapers DIRECTLY trying to influence Shepard. TIM and the Anderson (!!!) are supposed to represent two facets of Shepard's own personality. The reason the scene progresses from there to the crucible choice scene is because that fails (otherwise you get a game over screen if your indoctrinated half 'wins' the arguement). So the catalyst in the next scene is the reapers/Harbinger actually pressing harder, more directly, to see if they can convince/stop Shepard.

That's how I percieve the theory to go anyways.

I agree, and I would reason that this stage
could have some similarities to the scene in which Shepard is in the
Geth server.  He uses the ideas and personas already accumilated within
his mind to fill in the things that he had not experienced fully.  If
Shepard was fighting against indoctrination, he would be experiencing a
multitude of feelings and emotions at the same time.  Shepard's mind
would have to deal with all of these conflicting emotions as well as the
Reaper's influence.  It would be easy for his mind to organize and
assign these values to personas which he knew very well, like Anderson
and the Illusive Man. 

[Domanese]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Afalstein wrote...

I have one major problem with the indoctrination theory. Well, okay, two.

The smaller concern is this--none of the indoctrinated individuals we've met have ever mentioned anything like the process Shepherd is going through here. Not Saren, not the salarian fanatics, not the Cerberus personnel in the dead Reaper, not the scientists in "Arrival." Nothing. Never a mention of any glowing boys or choices between controlling, destroying, etc. And none of them thought they were dead, like (presumably) Shepherd does at the end. Most of them aren't even aware that anything has happened at all.

The major problem I have, though, is the idea of when the hallucination begins--at the moment when Shepherd wakes up from the blast. Now, I was aware that an indoctrination theory existed (though not its specifics, obviously), so when he woke up then, it did occur to me that that would be a good diverging point.

Except then you have the Illusive Man scene. Why? Why would Reapers, trying to indoctrinate Shepherd, show him an images of his mentor and his enemy, pitting one against the other? Why would they have the enemy take their side and FORCE Shepherd to attack him? You can't pass that scene unless you actually shoot the Illusive Man or convince him to shoot himself. What does that represent in the Reaper-induced hallucination?

If everything from the blast is a hallucination, wouldn't it be simpler to just have the Conduit take Shepherd straight to the god-child and the decision? If there was a point between the Illusive Man showdown and the god-child scene where Shepherd blacked out, I'd be more willing to use that as the hallucinatory point, but there's nothing. Either the showdown is real, or its a completely pointless divergence in the Reaper's indoctrination hallucination.

You're making my head hurt. But here we go.

First. S-H-E-P-A-R-D.

Second. And no time in the trilogy do you ever have a chance to engage in conversation about the process of indoctrination with indocrinated individuals, they are either too busy trying to kill you, trying to trick you, or outright lying to you, and NONE of them think they're indoctrinated until it's far too late at which point they either slip further into denial or put a bullet in their head. It is a distinct possibility that Shepard is the only organic is galactic history to be able to resist Indoctrination on a level enough to remain fully functional until Harbinger grazes him/her and brings Shepard close to death. The hallucination (if the Theory is true) we see can very well be something Saren and The Illusive Man went through during their indoctrination but we never hear about this because it happens behind the scenes (warning, that was heavy speculation). Moreover, we DO hear certain symptons that Shepard has in passing through the Derelict Reaper from the Cerberus personel recordings, or during the Arrival DLC; complaints of headaches or stress, seeing things that aren't there, having reaccuring Nightmares.

Moving on.

The hallucination CAN begin right when you get up after Harbingers beam. Or it could begin when you step into the Citadel beam. Or it could begin after you get on to the Citadel. Or it could begin when you pass out after the Illusive Man encounter. The Theory is strong but not complete, keep an open mind as there are many possibilities.

As for the Illusive Man being in that scene, after your hallucination (if starts prior to the encounter) it's possible TIM is the one who initiated Shepard's indoctrination attempt and therefore would be central to the hallucination/struggle over his willpower. Anderson's present has been debated as possibly being a manifestation of Shepard's willpower. Try to think of it this way; the Reapers have Tried to indoctrinate Shepard and have so far failed. Only AFTER nearly killing him/her with a Reaper cannon, and AFTER using The Illusive Man as a direct control signal booster, and AFTER killing a large portion of Shepard's willpower (Anderson) do they present you with the Catalyst conversation and three "choices". The Destroy option being presented only because Shepard's mind is still too strong to completley indoctrinate, control and synthesis being paths to forms of becoming a Reaper indoctrinated slave.

One more thing to add is that indoctrination codex and examples have shown that it works by changing the outlook of a person but we never learned first hand if that was forced of if the subject under the duress finally gave in until now according to the theory.

Think of indoctrination as a form of torture. Few have the willpower to keep fighting to the very end. Most will willingly submit to make the torture stop. Same thing with the final choice. Destroy means you are willing to struggle against them no matter how bleak it looks. Control or Synthesis means your wilpower breaks willingly and you yield to the Reapers logic..

Modifié par Domanese, 08 mai 2012 - 02:19 .

[Simon_Says]

Afalstein wrote...

I have one major problem with the indoctrination theory. Well, okay, two.

The smaller concern is this--none of the indoctrinated individuals we've met have ever mentioned anything like the process Shepherd is going through here. Not Saren, not the salarian fanatics, not the Cerberus personnel in the dead Reaper, not the scientists in "Arrival." Nothing. Never a mention of any glowing boys or choices between controlling, destroying, etc. And none of them thought they were dead, like (presumably) Shepherd does at the end. Most of them aren't even aware that anything has happened at all.

First of all we were never provided an 'insider's take' on the indoctrination process before. Second, we're do see similar processes in all of those cases: the subjects are weakened psychologically, and then given the personality-altering suggestions that turn them into willing or unwitting agents of the reaper agenda. Yes, glowing boys, crucible choices, even controlled dream sequences have not been confirmed to have been used in other indoctrinations, but then what has? Hallucinations, false dichotomies, emotional appeals... What you just said is like saying that the blue babes walking around aren't asari because Shiala, an asari, is green. One circumstance should not be taken to be the exact template for other similar circumstances.

And does Shepard really appear to be aware that they're being indoctrinated? Are the people who support blue/green aware (assuming IT is true)? True, effective indoctrination has always been subtle, in both ME and real life. The only way to realize it is to be forcefully shown the manipulation. Until then, nothing appears wrong.

Afalstein wrote...

The major problem I have, though, is the idea of when the hallucination begins--at the moment when Shepherd wakes up from the blast. Now, I was aware that an indoctrination theory existed (though not its specifics, obviously), so when he woke up then, it did occur to me that that would be a good diverging point.

Except then you have the Illusive Man scene. Why? Why would Reapers, trying to indoctrinate Shepherd, show him an images of his mentor and his enemy, pitting one against the other? Why would they have the enemy take their side and FORCE Shepherd to attack him? You can't pass that scene unless you actually shoot the Illusive Man or convince him to shoot himself. What does that represent in the Reaper-induced hallucination?

If everything from the blast is a hallucination, wouldn't it be simpler to just have the Conduit take Shepherd straight to the god-child and the decision? If there was a point between the Illusive Man showdown and the god-child scene where Shepherd blacked out, I'd be more willing to use that as the hallucinatory point, but there's nothing. Either the showdown is real, or its a completely pointless divergence in the Reaper's indoctrination hallucination.

Anderson and TIM could be just symbolic projections of the inner conflict in Shepard's mind. In this case the reapers would likely be examining Shepard's response to refine their final indoctrination attempt. Or they could even be the actual characters, also dragged in to the same indoctrination party so that the reapers can take out three birds with one stone. (And yes, there's still room to indoctrinate TIM further. TIM still doesn't see the reapers as allies or masters. Cerberus' actions at Sanctuary encited reaper response after all) Even if Anderson and TIM are actually reaper visions in the scene, again, it's either to probe Shepard's response or to disarm Shepard with a quick, obvious, and failed indoc attempt that leaves Shepard more vulnerable afterwards.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 08 mai 2012 - 02:27 .

[Afalstein]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...


You're making my head hurt. But here we go.

First. S-H-E-P-A-R-D.

Oh.  Oops.  Sorry about that.

Second. And no time in the trilogy do you ever have a chance to engage in conversation about the process of indoctrination with indocrinated individuals, they are either too busy trying to kill you, trying to trick you, or outright lying to you, and NONE of them think they're indoctrinated until it's far too late at which point they either slip further into denial or put a bullet in their head. It is a distinct possibility that Shepard is the only organic is galactic history to be able to resist Indoctrination on a level enough to remain fully functional until Harbinger grazes him/her and brings Shepard close to death. The hallucination (if the Theory is true) we see can very well be something Saren and The Illusive Man went through during their indoctrination but we never hear about this because it happens behind the scenes (warning, that was heavy speculation). Moreover, we DO hear certain symptons that Shepard has in passing through the Derelict Reaper from the Cerberus personel recordings, or during the Arrival DLC; complaints of headaches or stress, seeing things that aren't there, having reaccuring Nightmares.

I don't remember the nightmares.  I do recall hearing about seeing things that aren't there, and the headaches, and also a strange "joining of minds," where the scientist's remember each other's stories (which obviously wouldn't apply here.)  Also there was a mining log from indoctrinated workers (though this was in a side mission in ME2) that talked about a beautiful light coming from a Reaper artifact and hearing wonderful music.  Perhaps all it took for low-level minds to crack, but nothing similar to what Shepard has here.

On the heavy speculation front... Saren I might be able to give you, but not the Illusive Man.  It's very clear that he was never "offered" a choice, he was completely convinced everything that was going on was his own idea and his own doing.  He believed that he was in control from the implants he'd gotten and the research he'd done, not because of any conversation he'd had with sparkly children.  In fact, that's the problem with a lot of this theory... indoctrinated individuals are nearly always certain that this is their own idea, never something the Reapers offered them. 

Moving on.

The hallucination CAN begin right when you get up after Harbingers beam. Or it could begin when you step into the Citadel beam. Or it could begin after you get on to the Citadel. Or it could begin when you pass out after the Illusive Man encounter. The Theory is strong but not complete, keep an open mind as there are many possibilities.

As for the Illusive Man being in that scene, after your hallucination (if starts prior to the encounter) it's possible TIM is the one who initiated Shepard's indoctrination attempt and therefore would be central to the hallucination/struggle over his willpower. Anderson's present has been debated as possibly being a manifestation of Shepard's willpower. Try to think of it this way; the Reapers have Tried to indoctrinate Shepard and have so far failed. Only AFTER nearly killing him/her with a Reaper cannon, and AFTER using The Illusive Man as a direct control signal booster, and AFTER killing a large portion of Shepard's willpower (Anderson) do they present you with the Catalyst conversation and three "choices". The Destroy option being presented only because Shepard's mind is still too strong to completley indoctrinate, control and synthesis being paths to forms of becoming a Reaper indoctrinated slave.

I suppose the hallucination could begin when he collapses and rises on that glowing platform.  But the platform can't very well be part of the hallucination, because heck, we see it.  I suppose that might just mean that Shepherd is indoctrinated in a little white room somewhere.

[duranii]

To be honest, I was a firm believer in the indoctrination theory until I decided to research the facts and saw the other side of the coin. There's more ACTUAL evidence AGAINST the theory than there is FOR it. A lot of the IT relies on speculation and what I call "leaps of logic."

This video was pretty much the last straw that caused me to completely doubt the indoctrination theory. View it fully. It was well made in my opinion: www.youtube.com/watch

Skip to 3:30 to see the most damning evidence against the theory if you don't want to see the whole thing. Thing is, the things that disprove the theory can actually be seen and confirmed as fact because they ACTUALLY HAPPEN IN GAME.

Modifié par duranii, 08 mai 2012 - 02:57 .

[llbountyhunter]

Using phone cant quote......


Wanted to point something out. Indoctrination does not happen the same for everyone! With TIM the reapers obviously appealed to his mentality of control, he was easy. HE didn't see a little growing kid because the reapers put him in shepards mind to appeal to shepards sympathy. (also they DO mention dreams in arrival)

Also I personally believe IT starts at the shuttle crash, this solves alot of problems- trees before harbingers laser for one.

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 08 mai 2012 - 02:36 .

[llbountyhunter]

duranii wrote...

To be honest, I was a firm believer in the indoctrination theory until I decided to research the facts and saw the other side of the coin. There's more ACTUAL evidence AGAINST the theory than there is FOR it. A lot of the IT relies on speculation and what I call "leaps of logic."

This video was pretty much the last straw that caused me to completely doubt the indoctrination theory. View it fully. It was well made in my opinion:

Skip to 3:30 to see the most damning evidence against the theory if you don't want to see the whole thing. Thing is, the things that disprove the theory can actually be seen and confirmed as fact because they ACTUALLY HAPPEN IN GAME.

Never mind I saw the video....... You call That evidence against IT? I thought we wre the ones grasping at straws.

"Untill I decided to research the facts... " yeaaaah suuuure. Admit it. You never believed it IT. Typical anti ITer here.

More actual evidence against IT" lol. Were is this evidence?

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 08 mai 2012 - 02:48 .

[Simon_Says]

duranii wrote...

To be honest, I was a firm believer in the indoctrination theory until I decided to research the facts and saw the other side of the coin. There's more ACTUAL evidence AGAINST the theory than there is FOR it. A lot of the IT relies on speculation and what I call "leaps of logic."

This video was pretty much the last straw that caused me to completely doubt the indoctrination theory. View it fully. It was well made in my opinion:

Skip to 3:30 to see the most damning evidence against the theory if you don't want to see the whole thing. Thing is, the things that disprove the theory can actually be seen and confirmed as fact because they ACTUALLY HAPPEN IN GAME.

More evidence against than for? Either list, link, or in some way share that information with us, look up the new information we're finding, or just watch this little video and these screenshots and ask yourself how they could possibly get past the level designers and QA.

As for that video, I'll build up counterpoints a little later but I'll begin with the fact that the 'counter-evidence' this guy is posting is as straw-grasping, or even more so than what we've found.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 08 mai 2012 - 02:42 .

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

RxP4IN wrote...

bigstig wrote...

byne wrote...

Wolfram Tarant wrote...

byne wrote...
To be fair, that wasnt Reaper implants or anything, the soldier in the interrogation says they were ocular flashbangs, which just proves TIM listened when Mordin gave him advice.

True. But my main point is that it's highly unlikely TIM was controlling Shepard through his implants. Not saying that it was impossible to control him through other methods though. Just saying, if you choose to interpret the ending literally and you're completely adamant that the implants were how TIM made Shepard shoot Anderson, then I disagree...

Even if you think TIM controlled Shep through her implants, he also controlled Anderson, who has no implants at all.

 
If you assume TIM is controlling via some form of indoctrination he has somehow cured the side effect of indoctrination In as much as both Shepard and Anderson retain their minds which goes against everything we know so the literal interpretation TIM not only cracks reaper tech but improves on it? It's just not possible

This is my biggest problem with arguments defending that scene.

"Dur. Somebody wasn't paying attention during Sanctuary...DURRRR."

Seriously? IT or not, Cerberus improving Reaper tech is just stupid. So a nigh-infinite, hyper-intelligent life-form with limitless time and resources is outdone in a few months by a buch of crack scientists whose experiments always blow up in their faces? Ughh....

It's funny because every cycle has a group that tries to do this.

Didn't we argue this a few weeks ago? It's like the arguments stay the same but the name of the people change.

[Cyberfrog81]

So we know that during indoctrination the Reapers make "suggestions".

What kind of suggestions are we aware of?
- You can control/dominate us
- [Whatever they had Saren believe]

More speculative ones
- The Citadel is very safe
- It is impossible to beat us conventionally
- Get your ass to Mars

Modifié par Cyberfrog81, 08 mai 2012 - 02:48 .

[Salient Archer]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

The only reason I wanted to point it out was that Firebase Ghost is a human colony inside the Earth System Alliance.

From the wikia: Firebase Ghost is a multiplayer map in Mass Effect 3. It is located in a slum on Benning in the "Earth Systems Alliance Space" zone of the galaxy map.

Benning, the nearest garden world to Arcturus Station, is the station's primary food supply source and an important staging area for starship maintenance and repair. This makes reclaiming the planet a key part of any attempt to liberate the station, capital of the Systems Alliance.[1]

Which clearly proves the materials in the ending cinematic are human manmade materials not the materials used in the construction of the Citadel.

It's funner to play compare the London rubble to the Breath scene rubble. Trust me o_o (on view #213 of the Shepard Breath scene for anyone keeping score.)

Gunslinger, you have no idea how much I admire your dedication and discipline. I think I only watched it like 10 times in a row before I developed the urge to stab myself in the eye.

213 is a rough estimation, its probably more like 150-200, but I lost count a long time ago. Despite watching it so many times I'm still no closer to saying, definitively, where it is located. There are objects I can say for certain are from Earth (the rubble) and others that I can say for certain are from the Citadel (the Reaper cables) and at least 4 prominent structures I can't identify as being in the game before hand.

I definitely agree on that, it's truly too hard to say where (s)he is with the evidence we're provided.

Where our opinions must diverge thought is that I don't totally agree that those cables are of reaper origin; I originally thought that they were from the citadel but then I started to notice cables that look exactly like them appearing in the multiplayer maps such as Ghost and Hydra.

For example on Hydra they can be seen going directly into the Reactor in the operations area, where as on Ghost they're found all over the floor leading into computer terminals, etc.

Considering these maps are controlled by the Alliance it's fairly safe to assume that the hardware found at these locations are Alliance as well.



Hydra description from wikia:
Firebase Hydra is located in an old abandoned quarian colony which humans took over when they originally settled the world of Ontarom. It has since been converted into a massive dam facility which powers the communications hub located at Firebase Dagger and the kinetic barrier which protects it. Without this critical power source, Systems Alliance communications within the entire theatre would go dark.

Please feel free to pick it apart but It was just something I started to notice after seeing your original post about them being cables and not rebar.

[gunslinger_ruiz]

llbountyhunter wrote...

duranii wrote...

To be honest, I was a firm believer in the indoctrination theory until I decided to research the facts and saw the other side of the coin. There's more ACTUAL evidence AGAINST the theory than there is FOR it. A lot of the IT relies on speculation and what I call "leaps of logic."

This video was pretty much the last straw that caused me to completely doubt the indoctrination theory. View it fully. It was well made in my opinion:

Skip to 3:30 to see the most damning evidence against the theory if you don't want to see the whole thing. Thing is, the things that disprove the theory can actually be seen and confirmed as fact because they ACTUALLY HAPPEN IN GAME.

Do you mind pointing out what it says? Can't watch videos at the moment....

Interesting but doesn't completely debunk IT. The guard could be  looking at the child, could easily have been looking to see if the shuttle was taking off. The doors waiting and shuttle taking off could have been waiting for an opening in the sky to try and fly through. Even so, the presence of the child in the vent and disappearing as soon as Shepard turns away to Anderson is, if anything, eerie and seems like a possible hallucination.

While you can see groove marking in places on the citadel and the crucible you can also see them in London on various buildings and rubble and columns. The rubble you see in Shepard's breath is clearly concrete and not anything metallic in nature like the structures you see in the "Decision Chamber". The tube shown in that video doesn't match at all with the object shown. the giant tube is cylindrical in shape and has various cables inside of it while the object behind Shepard is octagonal in shape and looks to be made of conrete on the inside.

As I have said numerous time Reaper cable can be seen primarily on the Dark Corridor protion of hte Citadel, with some on the Crucible area, if there's any on Earth I haven't seen it. But I have only seen the rubble in Shepard's breath on Earth and matched the grooves with various London rubble. Confusing to say the least.