57139 réponses à ce sujet

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Salient Archer wrote...

*snip*



I definitely agree on that, it's truly too hard to say where (s)he is with the evidence we're provided.

Where our opinions must diverge thought is that I don't totally agree that those cables are of reaper origin; I originally thought that they were from the citadel but then I started to notice cables that look exactly like them appearing in the multiplayer maps such as Ghost and Hydra.

For example on Hydra they can be seen going directly into the Reactor in the operations area, where as on Ghost they're found all over the floor leading into computer terminals, etc.

Considering these maps are controlled by the Alliance it's fairly safe to assume that the hardware found at these locations are Alliance as well.

*image snip*

Hydra description from wikia:
Firebase Hydra is located in an old abandoned quarian colony which humans took over when they originally settled the world of Ontarom. It has since been converted into a massive dam facility which powers the communications hub located at Firebase Dagger and the kinetic barrier which protects it. Without this critical power source, Systems Alliance communications within the entire theatre would go dark.

Please feel free to pick it apart but It was just something I started to notice after seeing your original post about them being cables and not rebar.

I highly doubt the cables in the breath scene are Geth or Quarian in origin. Reapers cables have been seen throughout the game at various locations used with their tech. Firebase Hydra may be Alliance controlled but a lot of it looks Geth/Quarian in construction, you can even see Geth hubs/pods in the area.

Here are some comparison images showing the Reaper cables during the end sequence:

Reaper cables on the Citadel:





Keep in mind the differences in size.

Reaper cables in the breath scene:





I'm working on more comparison shots showing the Breath scene rubble and London rubble similarities. More on that later.

Modifié par gunslinger_ruiz, 08 mai 2012 - 03:00 .

[duranii]

llbountyhunter wrote...

duranii wrote...

To be honest, I was a firm believer in the indoctrination theory until I decided to research the facts and saw the other side of the coin. There's more ACTUAL evidence AGAINST the theory than there is FOR it. A lot of the IT relies on speculation and what I call "leaps of logic."

This video was pretty much the last straw that caused me to completely doubt the indoctrination theory. View it fully. It was well made in my opinion:

Skip to 3:30 to see the most damning evidence against the theory if you don't want to see the whole thing. Thing is, the things that disprove the theory can actually be seen and confirmed as fact because they ACTUALLY HAPPEN IN GAME.

Never mind I saw the video....... You call That evidence against IT? I thought we wre the ones grasping at straws.

"Untill I decided to research the facts... " yeaaaah suuuure. Admit it. You never believed it IT. Typical anti ITer here.

More actual evidence against IT" lol. Were is this evidence?

You didn't even watch the video did you?  You wouldn't be asking such a question if you actually did.

How is the solider LOOKING at the child grasping straws?  How about the husks that try to claw at the building where the child ran into?  More straws?  The shuttle just happens to not launch until the child is IN?  What, did the Reapers just time it that way?  Give me a break.  You're in denial of obvious facts that you can SEE as opposed to SPECULATE.

I never knew an ending could suck so bad that it causes people to be so utterly blind to obvious facts because the IT is the only way to save the ending at this point.

[gunslinger_ruiz]

duranii wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

duranii wrote...

To be honest, I was a firm believer in the indoctrination theory until I decided to research the facts and saw the other side of the coin. There's more ACTUAL evidence AGAINST the theory than there is FOR it. A lot of the IT relies on speculation and what I call "leaps of logic."

This video was pretty much the last straw that caused me to completely doubt the indoctrination theory. View it fully. It was well made in my opinion:

Skip to 3:30 to see the most damning evidence against the theory if you don't want to see the whole thing. Thing is, the things that disprove the theory can actually be seen and confirmed as fact because they ACTUALLY HAPPEN IN GAME.

Never mind I saw the video....... You call That evidence against IT? I thought we wre the ones grasping at straws.

"Untill I decided to research the facts... " yeaaaah suuuure. Admit it. You never believed it IT. Typical anti ITer here.

More actual evidence against IT" lol. Were is this evidence?

You didn't even watch the video did you?  You wouldn't be asking such a question if you actually did.

How is the solider LOOKING at the child grasping straws?  How about the husks that try to claw at the building where the child ran into?  More straws?  The shuttle just happens to not launch until the child is IN?  What, did the Reapers just time it that way?  Give me a break.  You're in denial of obvious facts that you can SEE as opposed to SPECULATE.

I never knew an ending could suck so bad that it causes people to be so utterly blind to obvious facts because the IT is the only way to save the ending at this point.

I saw the video and I for one believe it to be grasping against Indoctrination Theory as much as support for Indoctrination Theory can grasp. There's speculation in the video, there's speculation in the  Theory, it's gonna happen, relax. Believe what you want to believe, we'll all see how it goes once Bioware raises the curtain. If we're wrong, we're wrong, it was still a fun as hell to shape this Theory.

[Simon_Says]

duranii wrote...

You didn't even watch the video did you?  You wouldn't be asking such a question if you actually did.

Well I did. And I'm asking questions.

duranii wrote...

How is the solider LOOKING at the child grasping straws?  How about the husks that try to claw at the building where the child ran into?  More straws?  The shuttle just happens to not launch until the child is IN?  What, did the Reapers just time it that way?  Give me a break.  You're in denial of obvious facts that you can SEE as opposed to SPECULATE.

Looking at the child or just the civilians on the shuttle? Or just checking on the other soldiers with him? Sorry, a small nod is hardly conclusive evidence. And even if the kid is real, something definitely had to get into Shepard's head to bring out the image of the child to be the avatar for the Catalyst. This. Is. Fact.

duranii wrote...

I never knew an ending could suck so bad that it causes people to be so
utterly blind to obvious facts because the IT is the only way to save
the ending at this point.

So you're saying that you think IT could save ME3's ending. Then why are you getting agitated at us? Even if it wasn't Bioware's intention on release, that doesn't mean that with enough support they'll put it back in*. Also, you seem to be operating under old info. I linked a couple of gems last page. Check them out!

*Yes. Back in. Final Hours app confirmed that they were trying to implement indoctrination as an element of the game, but got rid of gameplay elements because they didn't mesh. Didn't state they abandoned the idea. But at some point indoc was a plot point.


As for the rest of the video...

First of all. Maybe you're not aware. Dreams tend to be weird and often inconsistent even within the same dream. We're using the 'it's a dream' argument because of the weirdness and inconsistency of the scenes. How do Anderson and TIM get to the control panel when there was only one route to the thing? How come TIM needs to convince Shepard? Why are the characters' shadows completely breaking the laws of physics? Is it really so hard to accept that a symbolic projection's wounds, death, and actions would only affect the dreamer symbolically and not realistically? Finally, where the hell did the puncture wound on Shepard's gut come from otherwise?

The child. "Long range"? What consitutes long range? Are several reapers landing literally next door at 'long range'? Also, the child is visible at the very start, but we already agree that's probably an actual child. An actual child may have run into the beam'ed out building as well. But it's too much a stretch to believe he survived the reaper beam simply by being in a ventilation shaft. After that beam, we say the kid is a hallucination. The soldier reactions, the shuttle takeoff timing, these are very, very short straws this guy was grasping at. And Shepard's emotion? Seriously? Either way Shepard was affected. That much is obvious.

As for the ending. Yes, the cables could be reaper cables. But similar stuff is strewn all over the game, and maybe you didn't notice, there was a bloody great conduit, complete with cables iirc. The concrete we've already confirmed to be concrete. They match both the texture and model of other concrete blocks found on Earth. Finally, yes. How did Shepard survive that explosion, point-blank, with a yield that would outclass most modern nuclear weapons? Without any sort of protection whatsoever?

And this guy only pointed out three counter-arguments. That I've just challenged. We have many, many more on our side that the literalist crowd can only answer as inconsistency, mistake, laziness etc. on Bioware's part. Sure each element viewed individually could be challenged on those grounds, but viewed as a whole a pattern forms.

The Illusive Man said...

The patterns are there, buried in the data.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 08 mai 2012 - 03:23 .

[TribalZodiacWLF]

The only reason they are doing an extension is just because EA was named the worst company of 2011 and they are trying to clean the **** stains off the bed but EA is keeping the ending and is just giving an explanation but no explanation if the indoctrination theory is true but they do say that they can rebuild the mass relays with remaining reaper tech (so they probably aren't going to use the ID Theory). You know I've hated EA's war on used games and they just are fueling fires.

[byne]

duranii wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

duranii wrote...

To be honest, I was a firm believer in the indoctrination theory until I decided to research the facts and saw the other side of the coin. There's more ACTUAL evidence AGAINST the theory than there is FOR it. A lot of the IT relies on speculation and what I call "leaps of logic."

This video was pretty much the last straw that caused me to completely doubt the indoctrination theory. View it fully. It was well made in my opinion:

Skip to 3:30 to see the most damning evidence against the theory if you don't want to see the whole thing. Thing is, the things that disprove the theory can actually be seen and confirmed as fact because they ACTUALLY HAPPEN IN GAME.

Never mind I saw the video....... You call That evidence against IT? I thought we wre the ones grasping at straws.

"Untill I decided to research the facts... " yeaaaah suuuure. Admit it. You never believed it IT. Typical anti ITer here.

More actual evidence against IT" lol. Were is this evidence?

You didn't even watch the video did you?  You wouldn't be asking such a question if you actually did.

How is the solider LOOKING at the child grasping straws?  How about the husks that try to claw at the building where the child ran into?  More straws?  The shuttle just happens to not launch until the child is IN?  What, did the Reapers just time it that way?  Give me a break.  You're in denial of obvious facts that you can SEE as opposed to SPECULATE.

I never knew an ending could suck so bad that it causes people to be so utterly blind to obvious facts because the IT is the only way to save the ending at this point.

Come on dude, the video claims Shepard woke up on the Citadel (because, yknow being at the middle of a huge explosion is basically just the same as getting a papercut) and claims that metal pillars somehow crumbled like concrete?

And second, I personally am split on whether the child is a hallucination when we see him on Earth, but him being real on Earth doesnt in any way disprove the theory.

I mean, I like Epyon and all, but his video is not really that convincing.

Modifié par byne, 08 mai 2012 - 03:13 .

[blooregard]

Simon_Says wrote...

duranii wrote...

You didn't even watch the video did you?  You wouldn't be asking such a question if you actually did.

Well I did. And I'm asking questions.

I read this and thought of my days when I was in high school

*reads section of book*
*asks question about it*
*gets told to look in the book*

[Big Bad]

I don't have a link for it at the moment, but a while back (> 300 pages ago) somebody posted some photos taken on Earth during or just before the conduit run, and there are several reaper-esque cables lying about.

[TribalZodiacWLF]

[quote]duranii wrote...

[quote]llbountyhunter wrote...

[quote]duranii wrote...

To be honest, I was a firm believer in the indoctrination theory until I decided to research the facts and saw the other side of the coin. There's more ACTUAL evidence AGAINST the theory than there is FOR it. A lot of the IT relies on speculation and what I call "leaps of logic."

This video was pretty much the last straw that caused me to completely doubt the indoctrination theory. View it fully. It was well made in my opinion:

Skip to 3:30 to see the most damning evidence against the theory if you don't want to see the whole thing. Thing is, the things that disprove the theory can actually be seen and confirmed as fact because they ACTUALLY HAPPEN IN GAME.[/quote]

Never mind I saw the video....... You call That evidence against IT? I thought we wre the ones grasping at straws.

"Untill I decided to research the facts... " yeaaaah suuuure. Admit it. You never believed it IT. Typical anti ITer here.

More actual evidence against IT" lol. Were is this evidence?

[/quote]


You didn't even watch the video did you?  You wouldn't be asking such a question if you actually did.

How is the solider LOOKING at the child grasping straws?  How about the husks that try to claw at the building where the child ran into?  More straws?  The shuttle just happens to not launch until the child is IN?  What, did the Reapers just time it that way?  Give me a break.  You're in denial of obvious facts that you can SEE as opposed to SPECULATE.

I never knew an ending could suck so bad that it causes people to be so utterly blind to obvious facts because the IT is the only way to save the ending at this point.


There's the part where the reaper nukes the building with the laser. The child would have been dead on impact even in the vent. The child may have been in there considering he was present in the begining playing with the ship but when he got nuked, illusion  makes more sense

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Big Bad wrote...

I don't have a link for it at the moment, but a while back (> 300 pages ago) somebody posted some photos taken on Earth during or just before the conduit run, and there are several reaper-esque cables lying about.

Well, now I gotta go through the end level again, back later.

[Domanese]

duranii wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

duranii wrote...

To be honest, I was a firm believer in the indoctrination theory until I decided to research the facts and saw the other side of the coin. There's more ACTUAL evidence AGAINST the theory than there is FOR it. A lot of the IT relies on speculation and what I call "leaps of logic."

This video was pretty much the last straw that caused me to completely doubt the indoctrination theory. View it fully. It was well made in my opinion:

Skip to 3:30 to see the most damning evidence against the theory if you don't want to see the whole thing. Thing is, the things that disprove the theory can actually be seen and confirmed as fact because they ACTUALLY HAPPEN IN GAME.

Never mind I saw the video....... You call That evidence against IT? I thought we wre the ones grasping at straws.

"Untill I decided to research the facts... " yeaaaah suuuure. Admit it. You never believed it IT. Typical anti ITer here.

More actual evidence against IT" lol. Were is this evidence?

You didn't even watch the video did you?  You wouldn't be asking such a question if you actually did.

How is the solider LOOKING at the child grasping straws?  How about the husks that try to claw at the building where the child ran into?  More straws?  The shuttle just happens to not launch until the child is IN?  What, did the Reapers just time it that way?  Give me a break.  You're in denial of obvious facts that you can SEE as opposed to SPECULATE.

I never knew an ending could suck so bad that it causes people to be so utterly blind to obvious facts because the IT is the only way to save the ending at this point.

Alright I'll give this a shot. Even if the soldier looked directly at the child, he didn't act upon helping him. Nor did any of the other citizens or soldiers there. Sure the shuttle took off after he got on but it's moot. Few people, would have done nothing to help that child on the shuttle. Especially soldiers. The soldier probably looked in that direction to tell the pilot to begin take off.

Second point of the child and the questioning of whether or not hes a hallucination. Lets start with indoctrination range. When has indoctrination been long range? Thats quite easy. The Illusive Man was certainly indoctrinated over a from a long distance since he obviously didn't have direct contact with the reapers during his founding and turning cerberus into a full organization. In the books he had contact with a reaper artifact yet still was undergoing the effects of a very slow indoctrination after all that time.

As for the husks clawing at the door. I'll grant you this, sure it's possible that the child might have been alive at that point. But there is no possible way that the child would have survived that blast from the reaper when it blew that room to rubble by hiding in an air vent. That would have still killed him. Ergo Im willing to think the child was a hallucination for the shuttle scene. Also if there was a reaper just outside all the same then wouldnt that be a good support for IT considering that the reaper now is in close range of Shepard and thus is capable of sending out its signals?

[Uncle Jo]

Sorry to bump in. I was playing the Derelict Reaper Mission in ME2 and watching the log videos of the scientists... One sentence got my attention : "..they are in my dreams.." Maybe every one heard it already, but I put it here just in case... And for the Reaper cables here a link to a screenshot...


Edit: Have trouble with loading the pic. Anyone can help ? imgur.com/2fS2H

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 08 mai 2012 - 03:48 .

[Big Bad]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

I don't have a link for it at the moment, but a while back (> 300 pages ago) somebody posted some photos taken on Earth during or just before the conduit run, and there are several reaper-esque cables lying about.

Well, now I gotta go through the end level again, back later.

Anybody else remember seeing these photos?  I'm pretty confident they were posted at some point, but confirmation is always good!

[Simon_Says]

Please fix that screenshot. You got a broken url for it.

Also, yes, there are cables. And yes, the derelict reaper is a goldmine of pro-IT evidence. Dream manipulation, waking hallucinations, confused memories, superstitious awe, it's all there.

[HellishFiend]

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

 I didn't mean to disprove IT. Thought processes in the brain are physical. Nanides explain how technically indoctrination works. Shooting sonic waves or putting someone in an electromagnetic field causes physical changes in the body and through that changes in behavior (at least that's how it'd work in the ME universe). Using those means the Reapers can control nanides. They are used to rapidly gain control over Shepard's movements (hence the black tendrils - nanides inhaled by Shepard). Nanides are also used in Dragon's Teeth. Husks are the final stage of indoctrination. Dragon's Teeth probably inject massive amounts of nanides into a body whereas there is a limit on how much Shepard can inhale in a given time. Hence he's not turned into a husk instantly.

Even if this is a hallucination, I think it's better to have a technical explanation for what can be seen there.

And I strongly disagree with that technical explanation. I'm quite certain it's wrong. It's well-established that in order to exert more direct control over an indoctrinated subject, higher mental functions are devastated in the process. I'm quite positive its not possible for Shepards movements to be controlled in such a manner and still be Shepard afterwards, barring any retconning or space magic. 

Reapers use nanides. It is confirmed in one of the logs on Sanctuary.

By the Codex entry: "Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks." IT states that Shepard was being indoctrinated for a longer time. What happens on the Citadel is the peak moment of indoctrination. It can be considered as long-term indoctrination. Even if it's a rapid indoctrination, it still would have to last days, not minutes/hours as the TIM and Catalyst scenes do.

Besides, if Shepard chooses Control/Synthesis, his body decays and he's turned into a husk. If he chooses Destroy, indoctrination is interrupted and it should be logically assumed that the decay doesn't happen.

Nothing you say addresses the fact that nowhere is it ever established that indoctrination asserts itself as physical manipulation rather than mental. How do you explain that? 

[Simon_Says]

Uncle Jo wrote...

Edit: Have trouble with loading the pic. Anyone can help ?

First off, where you uploading from? Right click and copy image location. That or go into it's properties and find it's url. Then slap it between [img] tags. Your problem may be drag and dropping. Don't do it, doesn't work on this forum.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 08 mai 2012 - 03:29 .

[Simon_Says]

HellishFiend wrote...

Nothing you say addresses the fact that nowhere is it ever established that indoctrination asserts itself as physical manipulation rather than mental. How do you explain that?

FFS I keep saying stuff and it just keeps getting passed over. Paul Grayson? Remember him from those novels? Subjected to nanotech infection and he was the reaper's puppet. He wasn't even a pawn, they didn't bother to manipulate him psychologically. They just assumed control!

And you don't need nanotech to do it either. The stuff they did that's discussed in that article can easily be transferred to applying control over a person's motor functions. It's documented. Sometimes the subject will even believe they intended to do the actions that were forced!

Modifié par Simon_Says, 08 mai 2012 - 03:35 .

[Uncle Jo]

Simon_Says wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

Edit: Have trouble with loading the pic. Anyone can help ?

First off, where you uploading from? Right click and copy image location. That or go into it's properties and find it's url. Then slap it between [img] tags. Your problem may be drag and dropping. Don't do it, doesn't work on this forum.

I was trying to upload it from my own computer... Thought it could work... But if it doesn't add anything new then I won't do it...

[Simon_Says]

Uncle Jo wrote...

I was trying to upload it from my own computer... Thought it could work... But if it doesn't add anything new then I won't do it...

Ah. Doesn't work that way I'm afraid. How could the forum let the world see what's on your computer?  Not as if Bioware's gonna spend disk space backing up your personal photos. Upload it to imgur or something. And yes, it's not new. But independent confirmation is always a good thing.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 08 mai 2012 - 03:37 .

[Salient Archer]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

*snip*



I definitely agree on that, it's truly too hard to say where (s)he is with the evidence we're provided.

Where our opinions must diverge thought is that I don't totally agree that those cables are of reaper origin; I originally thought that they were from the citadel but then I started to notice cables that look exactly like them appearing in the multiplayer maps such as Ghost and Hydra.

For example on Hydra they can be seen going directly into the Reactor in the operations area, where as on Ghost they're found all over the floor leading into computer terminals, etc.

Considering these maps are controlled by the Alliance it's fairly safe to assume that the hardware found at these locations are Alliance as well.

*image snip*

Hydra description from wikia:
Firebase Hydra is located in an old abandoned quarian colony which humans took over when they originally settled the world of Ontarom. It has since been converted into a massive dam facility which powers the communications hub located at Firebase Dagger and the kinetic barrier which protects it. Without this critical power source, Systems Alliance communications within the entire theatre would go dark.

Please feel free to pick it apart but It was just something I started to notice after seeing your original post about them being cables and not rebar.

I highly doubt the cables in the breath scene are Geth or Quarian in origin. Reapers cables have been seen throughout the game at various locations used with their tech. Firebase Hydra may be Alliance controlled but a lot of it looks Geth/Quarian in construction, you can even see Geth hubs/pods in the area.

Here are some comparison images showing the Reaper cables during the end sequence:

Reaper cables on the Citadel:





Keep in mind the differences in size.

Reaper cables in the breath scene:





I'm working on more comparison shots showing the Breath scene rubble and London rubble similarities. More on that later.

Fair enough, I do see the similarity and I'm not saying where the cables are from exactly, maybe they are of Reaper origin it’s just the cables they’ve used on the firebase ghost and hydra maps are identical to the ones in the breath scene. (Multicore in the middle with looms covering ever 2nd inch)

Having said that, they are also clearly the same as the ones shown in the images you've just posted.

Unfortunately I don't have a capture card to show you the cables I'm talking about, but if you have the time, try playing Hydra and go to the control room or Ghost and go into room 5 on the left side of the map and using a scope zoom in.

PS: I'd also like to say I really do appreciate the input and time you put into the forum.

EDIT: Assuming the scenes in this part of the game could be a construct in Shepard's head, could that explain why they're the same? If this is the case, Shepard would have to pull the images from somewhere right?

Modifié par Salient Archer, 08 mai 2012 - 03:39 .

[Five oH Thre3]

Don't know if it's been posted yet but some of the voice actors and actresses have confirmed via Twitter that they are back in the studio recording for the DLC releasing this summer, including Mark Meer and Jennifer Hale (voices of Shepard).

Link: http://www.dualshock...mment-521277684

[wsandista]

The IT sucks because it punishes everyone who roleplayed a paragon instead of just metagamed

[Nauks]

wsandista wrote...

The IT sucks because it punishes everyone who roleplayed a paragon instead of just metagamed

But you get to be part of a mindf*ck of epic proportions, a social experiment if you will.

[HellishFiend]

Simon_Says wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Nothing you say addresses the fact that nowhere is it ever established that indoctrination asserts itself as physical manipulation rather than mental. How do you explain that?

FFS I keep saying stuff and it just keeps getting passed over. Paul Grayson? Remember him from those novels? Subjected to nanotech infection and he was the reaper's puppet. He wasn't even a pawn, they didn't bother to manipulate him psychologically. They just assumed control!

And you don't need nanotech to do it either. The stuff they did that's discussed in that article can easily be transferred to applying control over a person's motor functions. It's documented. Sometimes the subject will even believe they intended to do the actions that were forced!

Well, I'm not buying it. I understand what you're saying, but I will not believe that nanid/tes are responsible for Shepard and Anderson losing partial motor to the Illusive man. I could type an essay on the various illogical implications that assumption creates, but I'll just leave it as my opinion, for whatever that's worth.... 

[Simon_Says]

wsandista wrote...

The IT sucks because it punishes everyone who roleplayed a paragon instead of just metagamed

Someone pissed that they've possibly been had? Sorry, but you're gonna need more than emotional backlash to convince anyone here.

Also, the goal of both paragon and renegade Shepard had always been to destroy the reapers. TIM advocated control at the end of 2 and throughout 3. Saren advocated Synthesis.

If you got time to spare, check this vid out. Don't worry, it's not even indoctrination theory related.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 08 mai 2012 - 03:46 .