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[Arian Dynas]

Simon_Says wrote...

Golferguy758 wrote...

Haha oh man. First time I try to actually catch up on the thread in a week and the cycle continues. Seriously, people are still saying there is a mountain of evidence saying IT is false without posting it? Eh, commence cycle 84 in this thread, I suppose.

In other news, running on 3 hours of sleep a night for the past week due to work has made me single-handedly increase Dunkin' Donuts stock several percent due to the amount of coffee I have ingested from there.

Welcome back. Alas it seems to be a little slow at the moment. And yes, 'mountains' of evidence which we're quickly kicking over. At least it bumps the thread.

In other news, I just had the realization for why TIM's indoctrination went into overdrive between 2 and 3: the proto-reaper. Seriously, I didn't realize it until literally three minutes ago. *smacks forehead*

@Arian: None of my posts deserved a response?

Indeed, You're so eloquent and well spoken I felt there was nothing to add. 

Also, forgot to add this to the bottom of my post;

"The patterns are there, buried in the data."

[Salient Archer]

@Arian Dynas: Wait, that looks exactly the same. Wait, does this mean we win? I believe it does.

[Arian Dynas]

Salient Archer wrote...

@Arian Dynas: Wait, that looks exactly the same. Wait, does this mean we win? I believe it does.

Exactamundo.

[TSA_383]

Hey guys, just registered on BSN for the first time to post this observation I had on the ending:
http://social.biowar.../index/11929257

I think it should inform some of the indoctrination theory debate somewhat. Certainly more than texture file names or obscure shadows

[Salient Archer]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

***snip***

I've seen the cables you're talking about and seen them posted. If anything it shows that Geth and Reapers use similar "cables" and that Reapers use cables throughout the galaxy in construction. Why those cables are on Benning I don't know, although it does look like Cerberus was hooking things up to the computer systems in that room, maybe gathering intel or just using the computer systems.

And thanks I try to participate from a logical standpoints.

Shepard's breath is supposed to be seen as Shepard waking up from the hallucination, so the scene itself wouldn't be a hallucination from that perspective. The only other way to view the breath scene is at face-value, Shepard somehow survived the numerous explosions and landed on Earth in a pile of London concrete rubble and Reaper tech/cables.

Sorry, I should have clarified better, I didn't mean he's breathing scene as being a hallucination, I meant the scenes taking place inside the citadel are. I also agree that Shepard waking up takes place on earth in the rubble of london. 

As for the alternative: I actually posted agessss ago how it's physically impossible from a scientific stand-point to survive a gigaton explosion, survive in a vacuum without the appropriate gear for any longer than 90 seconds and that even at a speed that would make it safe for Shepard to reenter the atmosphere it would take him 13 hours to travel from the Citadel’s location to reach earth. This isn’t even mentioning how he managed to not burn up during reentry or how he survived the 200mile drop to the ground once he did.

So in the face of all that science, I think it’s much easier to believe that a man can be hallucinating a form of reality, considering we’ve seen that people can hallucinate, where as having god-mode and self propelled space flight not so much.

EDIT: format

That's the main reason all those reaper cables are getting me caught up on the Breath scene. There's NO WAY Shepard could have survived that many explosions on the Citadel and still draw breath, there wouldn't even be a body left. The only way Shepard could survive is if he/she had shuttle/fighter strength kinetic barriers all of a sudden and even then that's iffy. The breath scene cannot take place on the Citadel since the massive explosions take place at the base of the Citadel where Shepard makes the choices. Playing through the ending levels again to see if i can spot Reaper cables in London, that'll settle me down for a bit.

Exactly, first he would be vaporized because of the heat generated alone so anything beyond that point is irrelevant anyway, despite all the other complications he would have to face getting back to earth.

Now, considering I know my Shepard didn’t have a shuttles kinetic barrier generator stuffed down his pants it’s pretty safe to say that someone having a hallucination is 100% more feasible than said man suddenly defying the laws of physics. (not to mention time and space in general)

And apparently we’re the irrational ones and literalists are the scientific fact finders? Ahem 

[Arian Dynas]

TSA_383 wrote...

Hey guys, just registered on BSN for the first time to post this observation I had on the ending:
http://social.biowar.../index/11929257

I think it should inform some of the indoctrination theory debate somewhat. Certainly more than texture file names or obscure shadows

One thing to mention. The notes have been discussed several times, and one important thing you missed.

It says "Ending of the FIRST Matrix".

[Rip504]

The Reapers did try to indoctrinate Shepard at the end of ME3. It was through TIM,and it failed.

[Arian Dynas]

Rip504 wrote...

The Reapers did try to indoctrinate Shepard at the end of ME3. It was through TIM,and it failed.

Haven't been reading here much have ya? We'll forgive ya though, if you take the time to learn more.

[balance5050]

TSA_383 wrote...

Hey guys, just registered on BSN for the first time to post this observation I had on the ending:
http://social.biowar.../index/11929257

I think it should inform some of the indoctrination theory debate somewhat. Certainly more than texture file names or obscure shadows

Good points, and it does have merit to it. I think the first matrix part may be referring to when Neo is shot and killed by Smith, he is then given some words of hope from trinity and then wakes up seeing the world the way it REALLY is (green code 'n stuff)

[Hawk227]

byne wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

I think we've hit on the truth folks! The cables are most definitely generic.

I wasnt paying attention. What were people trying to say the cables were?

Also, I just left the docking tube when boarding the geth ship, and there are two piles of those cables on the ground right when you leave the docking tube.

Edit: Also more piles of cables one you climb the ladder.

I bet they're all over this ship.

I just did that mission. They are everywhere. They are also everywhere in the Rachni mission.

People say that the thing in the breath scene is a Reaper Cable rather than Rebar, and since there is reaper cable on the Citadel this proves that Shepard was on the Citadel. Which is crap, they are only visible in the keeper tunnel with the bodies.

I actually agree that it (breath scene thing) is a Reaper cable, but I think it's supposed to be symbolic of Indoctrination. The places you see them the most are the Geth Dreadnought and the Rachni caves. Where two allies were under reaper control.

It's a tell to the players, a subtle hint at what happened. The eyes in Control/Synthesis tell the players they were just indoctrinated, the cable in the breath scene tells the player that Shep just woke up in london (duh) after an attempted indoctrination.

[TSA_383]

Arian Dynas wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

Hey guys, just registered on BSN for the first time to post this observation I had on the ending:
http://social.biowar.../index/11929257

I think it should inform some of the indoctrination theory debate somewhat. Certainly more than texture file names or obscure shadows

One thing to mention. The notes have been discussed several times, and one important thing you missed.

It says "Ending of the FIRST Matrix".

I didn't miss that at all, as I said in the thread I found it interesting that there's references to the matrix series in a game which arguably has copied large sections of the plot.

Read through the transcript in there, replace the word "Architect" with "Catalyst", "Machines" with "Reapers", "Neo" with "Shepard" and "Source" with "Crucible". The endings couldn't be much more similar without actually using copy+paste.

[Rip504]

Lol

[Simon_Says]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...
@Arian: None of my posts deserved a response?

Indeed, You're so eloquent and well spoken I felt there was nothing to add. 

Anyway, so, I've been thinking. Could Sovereign actually have been a good guy in it's own way?

No seriously, hear me out. We dismissed it's failure in the council cycle to be gross incompetence. Lost a relay, didn't check the Citadel's systems, etc. But what if it was all by design? What if Sovereign planned to be foiled?

It unleashes off the Rachni, gets the galaxy to unite to face a common threat, like they would do agains the reapers.

It intentionally doesn't check the Citadel for sabotage, despite being apparently aware that the protheans had managed to build their own mass relay that connected to the Citadel.

It makes a big appearance on Eden Prime, something that couldn't possibly be missed by the galaxy at large.

It's conversation with Shepard could have been just it trying to intentionally antagonize the human so that it percieved the reapers as a whole to be a threat.

I mean, sure, this is very, very way out, and I'm probably indoctrinated for even considering but, really. It also docks at around the same point the Crucible does. It's also much more powerful than any of the other reaper's we've seen (multiple beams, able to take multiple whole fleets on its own, etc.)

Maybe Sovereign was the enemy of our enemy all along. Maybe Sovereign made itself into a Crucible device, or in some other way was trying to fight against the Catalyst or the reapers. And for it, the ends justified the means, as is the apparent belief of all reapers.

...

In other news I have excellent taste in beer, if I do say so myself. (Grolsch)

Modifié par Simon_Says, 08 mai 2012 - 04:55 .

[BleedingUranium]

TSA_383 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

Hey guys, just registered on BSN for the first time to post this observation I had on the ending:
http://social.biowar.../index/11929257

I think it should inform some of the indoctrination theory debate somewhat. Certainly more than texture file names or obscure shadows

One thing to mention. The notes have been discussed several times, and one important thing you missed.

It says "Ending of the FIRST Matrix".

I didn't miss that at all, as I said in the thread I found it interesting that there's references to the matrix series in a game which arguably has copied large sections of the plot.

Read through the transcript in there, replace the word "Architect" with "Catalyst", "Machines" with "Reapers", "Neo" with "Shepard" and "Source" with "Crucible". The endings couldn't be much more similar without actually using copy+paste.

It is really amazing how well it works.

Hell, I think I now understand the Architect because of IT.

[Afalstein]

Okay, so another question.  My concerns about the Illusive Man showdown and the lack of precedent for Shepard's vision have been partly answered--I still don't buy IT, but it makes better sense to me--but now there's something else that's puzzling me.

According to how I understand this theory, the "last gasp" scene takes place on Earth, back by the conduit, where Shepard is in some indoctrination-stasis -like coma.  He's waking up because he beat indoctrination and is therefore alive.

Why does beating indoctrination wake him up?  Why does he have to be unconscious to begin with?  Plenty of people have been indoctrinated by Reaper tech while fully awake.  And why do the other two choices 'kill' him?

It just doesn't make sense.  An indoctrinated Shepard is no use to the Reapers if he's dead, and an unindoctrinated Shepard is no use to them at all.  If he submits, why put him through a hallucination where he dies?  (Or thinks he's dead, it's essentially the same thing).  If he resists, then why not just blast the unconscious body where it's (presumably) still lying?  Clearly the Alliance hadn't recovered it or secured the area around the conduit any better.

Discuss.  You had some interesting answers for my earlier questions, I'm intrigued to see your opinions on this.

Simon_Says wrote...

In other news, I just had the realization for why TIM's indoctrination went into overdrive between 2 and 3: the proto-reaper. Seriously, I didn't realize it until literally three minutes ago. *smacks forehead*

Oh hey, that does make a lot of sense, actually.  Illusive Man sticks a former Reaper organ in his base (How did that thing survive?) to power it, of course he's going to be slowly indoctrinated.  Can I just say, by the way, that I was a little disappointed by the Illusive Man's indoctrination?  It felt like Saren all over again, I was hoping for him to be geniunely misguided.

[Simon_Says]

Afalstein wrote...

According to how I understand this theory, the "last gasp" scene takes place on Earth, back by the conduit, where Shepard is in some indoctrination-stasis -like coma.  He's waking up because he beat indoctrination and is therefore alive.

Why does beating indoctrination wake him up?  Why does he have to be unconscious to begin with?  Plenty of people have been indoctrinated by Reaper tech while fully awake.  And why do the other two choices 'kill' him?

It just doesn't make sense.  An indoctrinated Shepard is no use to the Reapers if he's dead, and an unindoctrinated Shepard is no use to them at all.  If he submits, why put him through a hallucination where he dies?  (Or thinks he's dead, it's essentially the same thing).  If he resists, then why not just blast the unconscious body where it's (presumably) still lying?  Clearly the Alliance hadn't recovered it or secured the area around the conduit any better.

Discuss.  You had some interesting answers for my earlier questions, I'm intrigued to see your opinions on this.

Because an unconcious Shepard is an untroublesome Shepard who isn't running around blowing your friends up or activating actual crucibles. Also, it's likely that Shepard 'wakes up' no matter what happens. It's just that after control or synthesis, without something to short-circuit the indoctrination at least temporarily (the rachni's promise being one potential contender), Shepard's... well... indoctrinated. I don't know about you but dream death typically just wakes people up. They're not usually any worse for wear for it. Also, it could be interpreted that 'Shepard' does die in dream crucible. But whatever's left is now owned by the reapers.

In the low-ems destroy scenarios it's likely that the reapers just don't consider Shepard worth indoctrinating. Let the dream play out just to keep Shepard contained, and then blast him/her when they wake up.

In the high-ems destroy scenario, it's probably that your war assets come into play by buying time for your ass to resist, wake up, and leg it before Harbinger can blast you for good.

Afalstein wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

In other news, I just had the realization for why TIM's indoctrination went into overdrive between 2 and 3: the proto-reaper. Seriously, I didn't realize it until literally three minutes ago. *smacks forehead*

Oh hey, that does make a lot of sense, actually.  Illusive Man sticks a former Reaper organ in his base (How did that thing survive?) to power it, of course he's going to be slowly indoctrinated.  Can I just say, by the way, that I was a little disappointed by the Illusive Man's indoctrination?  It felt like Saren all over again, I was hoping for him to be geniunely misguided.

He was, mate. His hubris is how the reapers got him. He's a very, very tragic hero in the classical sense.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 08 mai 2012 - 05:29 .

[Arian Dynas]

Afalstein wrote...

Okay, so another question.  My concerns about the Illusive Man showdown and the lack of precedent for Shepard's vision have been partly answered--I still don't buy IT, but it makes better sense to me--but now there's something else that's puzzling me.

According to how I understand this theory, the "last gasp" scene takes place on Earth, back by the conduit, where Shepard is in some indoctrination-stasis -like coma.  He's waking up because he beat indoctrination and is therefore alive.

Why does beating indoctrination wake him up?  Why does he have to be unconscious to begin with?  Plenty of people have been indoctrinated by Reaper tech while fully awake.  And why do the other two choices 'kill' him?

It just doesn't make sense.  An indoctrinated Shepard is no use to the Reapers if he's dead, and an unindoctrinated Shepard is no use to them at all.  If he submits, why put him through a hallucination where he dies?  (Or thinks he's dead, it's essentially the same thing).  If he resists, then why not just blast the unconscious body where it's (presumably) still lying?  Clearly the Alliance hadn't recovered it or secured the area around the conduit any better.

Discuss.  You had some interesting answers for my earlier questions, I'm intrigued to see your opinions on this.

Simon_Says wrote...

In other news, I just had the realization for why TIM's indoctrination went into overdrive between 2 and 3: the proto-reaper. Seriously, I didn't realize it until literally three minutes ago. *smacks forehead*

Oh hey, that does make a lot of sense, actually.  Illusive Man sticks a former Reaper organ in his base (How did that thing survive?) to power it, of course he's going to be slowly indoctrinated.  Can I just say, by the way, that I was a little disappointed by the Illusive Man's indoctrination?  It felt like Saren all over again, I was hoping for him to be geniunely misguided.

As for why Shepard is unconcious, some argue he is in a semi-concious state, slowly crawling toward the Conduit, conflating reality,with his hallucinations. See the link for a script that uses this theory in my sig. Others state it's not the unconciousness that's important, but the physical damage, which is finally enough damage to weaken Shepard's will to the point of making him suceptible to Harbinger's mental attack.

The other two choices don't necessarily "kill" him. Control is simple indoctrination, like what happened to TIM, Shepard ends up controlled by the Reapers, tricked into doing their dirty work. More than likely, after giving in he would be unable to distinguish reality from reaper induced hallucinations.

Synthesis is coming completely around to the Reaper's point of veiw, much like Saren did, choosing to side with them.

TIM being indoctrinated IS him being misguided. His misguided beleif he could control the Reapers merely gave them an "in".

[Hihoshi101]

Simon_Says wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...
@Arian: None of my posts deserved a response?

Indeed, You're so eloquent and well spoken I felt there was nothing to add. 

Anyway, so, I've been thinking. Could Sovereign actually have been a good guy in it's own way?

No seriously, hear me out. We dismissed it's failure in the council cycle to be gross incompetence. Lost a relay, didn't check the Citadel's systems, etc. But what if it was all by design? What if Sovereign planned to be foiled?

It unleashes off the Rachni, gets the galaxy to unite to face a common threat, like they would do agains the reapers.

It intentionally doesn't check the Citadel for sabotage, despite being apparently aware that the protheans had managed to build their own mass relay that connected to the Citadel.

It makes a big appearance on Eden Prime, something that couldn't possibly be missed by the galaxy at large.

It's conversation with Shepard could have been just it trying to intentionally antagonize the human so that it percieved the reapers as a whole to be a threat.

I mean, sure, this is very, very way out, and I'm probably indoctrinated for even considering but, really. It also docks at around the same point the Crucible does. It's also much more powerful than any of the other reaper's we've seen (multiple beams, able to take multiple whole fleets on its own, etc.)

Maybe Sovereign was the enemy of our enemy all along. Maybe Sovereign made itself into a Crucible device, or in some other way was trying to fight against the Catalyst or the reapers. And for it, the ends justified the means, as is the apparent belief of all reapers.

...

In other news I have excellent taste in beer, if I do say so myself. (Grolsch)

I always thought it was odd that Saren didn't just go say high to councle and activate the relay before anyone knew what he was doing...

[Arian Dynas]

Simon_Says wrote...
*snip*
He was, mate. His hubris is how the reapers got him. He's a very, very tragic hero in the classical sense.

More of a Byronic hero, if we're going to be picky.

[Arian Dynas]

Hihoshi101 wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...
@Arian: None of my posts deserved a response?

Indeed, You're so eloquent and well spoken I felt there was nothing to add. 

Anyway, so, I've been thinking. Could Sovereign actually have been a good guy in it's own way?

No seriously, hear me out. We dismissed it's failure in the council cycle to be gross incompetence. Lost a relay, didn't check the Citadel's systems, etc. But what if it was all by design? What if Sovereign planned to be foiled?

It unleashes off the Rachni, gets the galaxy to unite to face a common threat, like they would do agains the reapers.

It intentionally doesn't check the Citadel for sabotage, despite being apparently aware that the protheans had managed to build their own mass relay that connected to the Citadel.

It makes a big appearance on Eden Prime, something that couldn't possibly be missed by the galaxy at large.

It's conversation with Shepard could have been just it trying to intentionally antagonize the human so that it percieved the reapers as a whole to be a threat.

I mean, sure, this is very, very way out, and I'm probably indoctrinated for even considering but, really. It also docks at around the same point the Crucible does. It's also much more powerful than any of the other reaper's we've seen (multiple beams, able to take multiple whole fleets on its own, etc.)

Maybe Sovereign was the enemy of our enemy all along. Maybe Sovereign made itself into a Crucible device, or in some other way was trying to fight against the Catalyst or the reapers. And for it, the ends justified the means, as is the apparent belief of all reapers.

...

In other news I have excellent taste in beer, if I do say so myself. (Grolsch)

I always thought it was odd that Saren didn't just go say high to councle and activate the relay before anyone knew what he was doing...

Yyeaaaaaaaahh... no. By his own admission this one is a chemically induced idea. Simon, despite you getting some of your best ideas drunk, this ain't one of them.

[Afalstein]

Simon_Says wrote...
Because an unconcious Shepard is an untroublesome Shepard who isn't running around blowing your friends up. Also, it's likely that Shepard 'wakes up' no matter what happens. It's just that after control or synthesis, without something to short-circuit the indoctrination at least temporarily (the rachni's promise being one potential contender), Shepard's... well... indoctrinated. I don't know about you but dream death typically just wakes people up. They're not usually any worse for wear for it. Also, it could be interpreted that 'Shepard' does die in dream crucible. But whatever's left is now owned by the reapers.

In the low-ems destroy scenarios it's likely that the reapers just don't consider Shepard worth indoctrinating. Let the dream play out just to keep Shepard contained, and then blast him/her when they wake up.

I suppose that explains why they knock him out to begin with.  But sorry, the 'death'' explanation still isn't cutting it with me.  Indoctrinated people aren't zombies without their own wills, Saren's and TIM's suicides show that clearly.  Again, indoctrination is supposed to be so incredibly subtle, the victim can't even tell it's happening, wouldn't this be better served by the child telling Shepard he will still live but needs to convince the humans to welcome the Reapers?  In fact, why does the child tell Shepard he'll die at all?  Doesn't he WANT Shepard to take those paths?

And technically, the "last gasp" scene doesn't show Shepard's state of mind, just that he's alive, so why have it only after the destroy?  It's not like Bioware's resistant to re-using material.

Afalstein wrote...
 Can I just say, by the way, that I was a little disappointed by the Illusive Man's indoctrination?  It felt like Saren all over again, I was hoping for him to be genuinely misguided.

He was, mate. His hubris is how the reapers got him. He's a very, very tragic hero in the classical sense.

No, I get that, but I honestly wanted him to just be misguided, period, without Reaper influence.  Like I wanted him to be independently misguided, with his atrocities his own responsibility.  I was hoping for some twist, like Cerberus was playing to burn out all the aliens fighting the Reapers so humanity could take over after the war.

[BleedingUranium]

Afalstein wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...
Because an unconcious Shepard is an untroublesome Shepard who isn't running around blowing your friends up. Also, it's likely that Shepard 'wakes up' no matter what happens. It's just that after control or synthesis, without something to short-circuit the indoctrination at least temporarily (the rachni's promise being one potential contender), Shepard's... well... indoctrinated. I don't know about you but dream death typically just wakes people up. They're not usually any worse for wear for it. Also, it could be interpreted that 'Shepard' does die in dream crucible. But whatever's left is now owned by the reapers.

In the low-ems destroy scenarios it's likely that the reapers just don't consider Shepard worth indoctrinating. Let the dream play out just to keep Shepard contained, and then blast him/her when they wake up.

I suppose that explains why they knock him out to begin with.  But sorry, the 'death'' explanation still isn't cutting it with me.  Indoctrinated people aren't zombies without their own wills, Saren's and TIM's suicides show that clearly.  Again, indoctrination is supposed to be so incredibly subtle, the victim can't even tell it's happening, wouldn't this be better served by the child telling Shepard he will still live but needs to convince the humans to welcome the Reapers?  In fact, why does the child tell Shepard he'll die at all?  Doesn't he WANT Shepard to take those paths?

And technically, the "last gasp" scene doesn't show Shepard's state of mind, just that he's alive, so why have it only after the destroy?  It's not like Bioware's resistant to re-using material.

1) Shepard would never accept the Reapers as good. Indoctrination mind control, it's convincing someone of something they don't believe. The thing is, they have to believe it. That would be so out there that Shep would never, ever believe that.

2) The Shepard we know only wakes up if s/he resisted the indoctrination and realised Kid/Harbinger is full of crap. The thing that would wake up in the other two... I wouldn't call it Shepard.

[HellishFiend]

Afalstein wrote...

No, I get that, but I honestly wanted him to just be misguided, period, without Reaper influence.  Like I wanted him to be independently misguided, with his atrocities his own responsibility.  I was hoping for some twist, like Cerberus was playing to burn out all the aliens fighting the Reapers so humanity could take over after the war.

Hmm, I have to say I feel quite the opposite. I'd like to think that TIM really did just have humanity's best interests at heart from the beginning, but that his extreme ambition was easily manipulated by the Reapers. 

[Lokanaiya]

Afalstein wrote...

And technically, the "last gasp" scene doesn't show Shepard's state of mind, just that he's alive, so why have it only after the destroy?  It's not like Bioware's resistant to re-using material.

Because even though Shepard wakes up in Control and Synthesis (presumably), he's not our Shepard anymore, he's the Reapers' now. And besides, if they showed it for all three, it wouldn't hint that Destroy was the right choice.

[HellishFiend]

BleedingUranium wrote...


1) Shepard would never accept the Reapers as good. Indoctrination mind control, it's convincing someone of something they don't believe. The thing is, they have to believe it. That would be so out there that Shep would never, ever believe that.

2) The Shepard we know only wakes up if s/he resisted the indoctrination and realised Kid/Harbinger is full of crap. The thing that would wake up in the other two... I wouldn't call it Shepard.

I agree with both of those points. Not only would Shepard not believe that the Reapers are good, but the majority of the playerbase wouldnt either. Meaning the Indoctrination attempt would fail on both counts. As it is, even just believing that the Reapers original intentions were to "preserve organic life" is a stretch. 

I also think Shepard will "wake up" in the EC regardless of which choice you make, but nothing good will come of it if you picked control or synthesis.