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[MaximizedAction]

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

 My personal biggest red flags that make me lean towards IT:

• Why do they only show Shepard profusely bleeding from the side after he shoots Anderson in the same location? That's a lot of blood to have not been noticable before the TIM showdown...
• Why does the Catalyst appear as a figure obviously taken from Shepard's subconscious?
• Why does Shepard have to disintegrate in order to achieve Control or Synthesis? The Catalyst said that Synthesis required him (Reapers) as well. I didn't see him jumping in the beam.
• Why do Shepard's eyes turn to the signature Husk design if you pick Control or Synthesis?
• Why do Shepard's eyes stay normal if you pick Destroy?
• Why show Shepard barely alive in rubble with no context of his condition/location, unless more was planned?

Well, strictly speaking, we don't explicitly see Shep's eyes at all the tube's explosion. His eyes only became blue after a while during the other choices. But I agree with all the other points.

[Fuzzball_7]

So I'm quite new to this whole Indoctrination Theory thing, and it's certainly interesting! If it was intentional by Bioware (Which I'm getting the feeling it wasn't. But who can say?), then it's a pretty clever end to the game, although does beg there to be more added, which seems a bit wrong to not release a game with the complete story!

Anyway, I wanted to comment on something which I think people are jumping on too readily: the issue of Shepard's eyes. Perhaps this has been addressed before, but, you know, this topic is over two thousand pages...

Why do people associate this particular pattern (blue eyes with three smaller cirlces around it) with being indoctrinated? People say The Illusive Man has eyes like that and he was indoctrinated, but his eyes always had that pattern. From the moment you first see him in ME2, his eyes always have the same pattern. I always thought that TIM isn't indoctrinated in ME2 (What opportunity would he have to be so?), and his eyes are just artificial enhancements for himself. If his eyes dramatically changed in appearance as he was indoctrinated in ME3, and Shepard's eyes at the end resembled that new pattern, that would be something. But as far as I'm aware, TIM's eyes always stay the same.

As for Shepard's eyes changing to that pattern in the Control and Synthesis endings... I was wondering: At the start of ME2, when Shepard is being rebuilt by Project Lazarus, does the cutscene show anything to do with his/her eyes? Shepard is rebuilt basically from scratch, with many artificial enhancements made to his/her body. Surely modifications would be made to his/her eyes? They could be essentially completely artificial, with this blue ring pattern an indication of that, and then just have a more natural iris color imposed on top. As Shepard's body is ripped apart in Synthesis or Control, you see this underlying artificial eye layer before he/she is completely disintegrated.

Of course, if that is the case, then it's a bit odd that it's never indicated anywhere at all before that point at the very end of the trilogy! I'm just speculating and showing that I guess most pieces of evidence for the Indoctrination Theory can mean several, completely different things.

[Cyberfrog81]

TSA_383 wrote...

The ambient track, the one that plays as soon as you get close to the child. It also plays during the ending

Now there's a nice clue to the Catalyst choice scene being "dream-like".

So throughout the game, they may be influencing your mind, preparing for this final encounter (if you're strong enough to make it that far). Explains a Shepard that barely even argues with the enemy, one of the major issues people have with the ending.

SubAstris wrote...

However, by the end, you can actually control the Reapers without any real risk of side-effects (as has been established by the narrative) and so it becomes a much better solution to the problem.

"Established by the narrative"? What nonsense. How about TOLD TO YOU BY THE ENEMY, a master manipulator. Even in the face-falue interpretation, this remains the case.

Modifié par Cyberfrog81, 08 mai 2012 - 04:33 .

[Tirian Thorn]

Fuzzball_7 wrote...

So I'm quite new to this whole Indoctrination Theory thing, and it's certainly interesting! If it was intentional by Bioware (Which I'm getting the feeling it wasn't. But who can say?), then it's a pretty clever end to the game, although does beg there to be more added, which seems a bit wrong to not release a game with the complete story!

Anyway, I wanted to comment on something which I think people are jumping on too readily: the issue of Shepard's eyes. Perhaps this has been addressed before, but, you know, this topic is over two thousand pages...

Why do people associate this particular pattern (blue eyes with three smaller cirlces around it) with being indoctrinated? People say The Illusive Man has eyes like that and he was indoctrinated, but his eyes always had that pattern. From the moment you first see him in ME2, his eyes always have the same pattern. I always thought that TIM isn't indoctrinated in ME2 (What opportunity would he have to be so?), and his eyes are just artificial enhancements for himself. If his eyes dramatically changed in appearance as he was indoctrinated in ME3, and Shepard's eyes at the end resembled that new pattern, that would be something. But as far as I'm aware, TIM's eyes always stay the same.

As for Shepard's eyes changing to that pattern in the Control and Synthesis endings... I was wondering: At the start of ME2, when Shepard is being rebuilt by Project Lazarus, does the cutscene show anything to do with his/her eyes? Shepard is rebuilt basically from scratch, with many artificial enhancements made to his/her body. Surely modifications would be made to his/her eyes? They could be essentially completely artificial, with this blue ring pattern an indication of that, and then just have a more natural iris color imposed on top. As Shepard's body is ripped apart in Synthesis or Control, you see this underlying artificial eye layer before he/she is completely disintegrated.

Of course, if that is the case, then it's a bit odd that it's never indicated anywhere at all before that point at the very end of the trilogy! I'm just speculating and showing that I guess most pieces of evidence for the Indoctrination Theory can mean several, completely different things.

TIM's eyes take on that "feature" after he is exposed to Reaper tech in one of the books.  (Can't remember which one.)  

The rest of his squad was turned into husks, but he was only mildly affected.  (The eyes and perhaps his mind as well.)  

[Uncle Jo]

Tirian Thorn wrote...

To everyone (but especially to the PRO-ITier's)

No single piece of evidence presented conclusively proves IT.  Period. 

The sounds, the trees, the music, the dialogue, etc - none of those findings by themselves are enough proof.  Argue all you like, but that's the fact. 

The strength of the theory is that there are so many things that point towards indoctrination.  And that there are so many anamolies that are - in my opinion - best explained by indoctrination. 

These individual pieces of evidence taken together is what unifies the theory and makes it more believable. 

But seriously, arguing over tree shapes and sounds found in a dream is ridiculous. 

Is it odd?  Yes. 
Does it fit with IT?  Yes. 
Could is just be a dream?  Yes. 

That's the problem with dreams - they are more open to interpretation than ANYTHING else because the normal rules are suspended, discarded or applied on a whim.  Dreams in entertainment are often used to foreshadow events, show guilt or motivations. 

Don't get hung up on the little things.  I really doubt if IT is true that Bioware is going to point to the dreams and say "did you notice the sounds?"  Or point to the tree shapes on the citadel and say "did you notice the trees?" 

*snip*

This. I completely agree with you. Every clue/hint (I won't use the term "evidence" or "proof", since we have no official confirmation from BW)  taken alone can be easily interpretated in various ways... They are pieces of puzzle and only once they're assembled then we can have the whole picture (IT in this case). But that's what the most IT disbelievers fail to understand...

[TSA_383]

Fuzzball_7 wrote...

So I'm quite new to this whole Indoctrination Theory thing, and it's certainly interesting! If it was intentional by Bioware (Which I'm getting the feeling it wasn't. But who can say?), then it's a pretty clever end to the game, although does beg there to be more added, which seems a bit wrong to not release a game with the complete story!

Anyway, I wanted to comment on something which I think people are jumping on too readily: the issue of Shepard's eyes. Perhaps this has been addressed before, but, you know, this topic is over two thousand pages...

Why do people associate this particular pattern (blue eyes with three smaller cirlces around it) with being indoctrinated? People say The Illusive Man has eyes like that and he was indoctrinated, but his eyes always had that pattern. From the moment you first see him in ME2, his eyes always have the same pattern. I always thought that TIM isn't indoctrinated in ME2 (What opportunity would he have to be so?), and his eyes are just artificial enhancements for himself. If his eyes dramatically changed in appearance as he was indoctrinated in ME3, and Shepard's eyes at the end resembled that new pattern, that would be something. But as far as I'm aware, TIM's eyes always stay the same.

As for Shepard's eyes changing to that pattern in the Control and Synthesis endings... I was wondering: At the start of ME2, when Shepard is being rebuilt by Project Lazarus, does the cutscene show anything to do with his/her eyes? Shepard is rebuilt basically from scratch, with many artificial enhancements made to his/her body. Surely modifications would be made to his/her eyes? They could be essentially completely artificial, with this blue ring pattern an indication of that, and then just have a more natural iris color imposed on top. As Shepard's body is ripped apart in Synthesis or Control, you see this underlying artificial eye layer before he/she is completely disintegrated.

Of course, if that is the case, then it's a bit odd that it's never indicated anywhere at all before that point at the very end of the trilogy! I'm just speculating and showing that I guess most pieces of evidence for the Indoctrination Theory can mean several, completely different things.

TIM's eyes ended up that way after he & Saren from ME1 were in contact with a reaper artifact.
Afterwards, Saren went looking for and found Sovereign (leading to the events of ME1) and TIM founded Cerberus.

[jsl1016]

Tirian Thorn wrote...

Fuzzball_7 wrote...

So I'm quite new to this whole Indoctrination Theory thing, and it's certainly interesting! If it was intentional by Bioware (Which I'm getting the feeling it wasn't. But who can say?), then it's a pretty clever end to the game, although does beg there to be more added, which seems a bit wrong to not release a game with the complete story!

Anyway, I wanted to comment on something which I think people are jumping on too readily: the issue of Shepard's eyes. Perhaps this has been addressed before, but, you know, this topic is over two thousand pages...

Why do people associate this particular pattern (blue eyes with three smaller cirlces around it) with being indoctrinated? People say The Illusive Man has eyes like that and he was indoctrinated, but his eyes always had that pattern. From the moment you first see him in ME2, his eyes always have the same pattern. I always thought that TIM isn't indoctrinated in ME2 (What opportunity would he have to be so?), and his eyes are just artificial enhancements for himself. If his eyes dramatically changed in appearance as he was indoctrinated in ME3, and Shepard's eyes at the end resembled that new pattern, that would be something. But as far as I'm aware, TIM's eyes always stay the same.

As for Shepard's eyes changing to that pattern in the Control and Synthesis endings... I was wondering: At the start of ME2, when Shepard is being rebuilt by Project Lazarus, does the cutscene show anything to do with his/her eyes? Shepard is rebuilt basically from scratch, with many artificial enhancements made to his/her body. Surely modifications would be made to his/her eyes? They could be essentially completely artificial, with this blue ring pattern an indication of that, and then just have a more natural iris color imposed on top. As Shepard's body is ripped apart in Synthesis or Control, you see this underlying artificial eye layer before he/she is completely disintegrated.

Of course, if that is the case, then it's a bit odd that it's never indicated anywhere at all before that point at the very end of the trilogy! I'm just speculating and showing that I guess most pieces of evidence for the Indoctrination Theory can mean several, completely different things.

TIM's eyes take on that "feature" after he is exposed to Reaper tech in one of the books.  (Can't remember which one.)  

The rest of his squad was turned into husks, but he was only mildly affected.  (The eyes and perhaps his mind as well.)  

It was the 4-part comic series called "Evolution." Synopsis can be found at this site:

http://masseffect.wi...fect:_Evolution 

[NoSpin]

SubAstris wrote...



1) I'll just answer the first one. You have to remember that there is a profound difference between events pre and post-Catalyst. Before control is offered as an option controlling the Reapers is not possible without the very real possibility of being controlled by them (as what happened to the Illusive Man). However, by the end, you can actually control the Reapers without any real risk of side-effects (as has been established by the narrative) and so it becomes a much better solution to the problem.

I'll have to respectfully disagree. Shepard never said "Well...if there was a way to perfectly control the reapers I would TOTALLY do it". Pre/Post Catalyst, Shepard says you can't. Says nobody should have that kind of power. For control to even be on the table at all just shot up a million red flags for me.

And Synthesis is a carbon copy of what Saren wanted, not even mentioning that one of the main themes of Mass Effect has been strength through diversity. Forcibly merging everyone into a single genetic endpoint seems to....not be that.

[Big Bad]

dreamgazer wrote...

I don't know if it will help anything, or if I'm reposting a version of something people have already posted, but I took this shot that kinda encapsulates the game's concrete idea of "rebar".

Whoa! That seems like a pretty important find to me! Good catch!

[whateverman7]

bigstig wrote...

 they also said to keep your DA:O save which had next to zero impact on DA:2 other than a few comments or reoccurrin characters  

not up on the terminology, not sure what DA:O nor DA:2 means

Modifié par whateverman7, 08 mai 2012 - 04:56 .

[llbountyhunter]

whateverman7 wrote...

bigstig wrote...

 they also said to keep your DA:O save which had next to zero impact on DA:2 other than a few comments or reoccurrin characters  

not up on the terminology, not sure what DA:O nor DA:2 means

different game: dragon age orginins. made by completly different bioware teams.

[DirtyPhoenix]

SubAstris wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

To everyone (but especially to the PRO-ITier's)

No single piece of evidence presented conclusively proves IT.  Period. 

The sounds, the trees, the music, the dialogue, etc - none of those findings by themselves are enough proof.  Argue all you like, but that's the fact. 

The strength of the theory is that there are so many things that point towards indoctrination.  And that there are so many anamolies that are - in my opinion - best explained by indoctrination. 

These individual pieces of evidence taken together is what unifies the theory and makes it more believable. 

But seriously, arguing over tree shapes and sounds found in a dream is ridiculous. 

Is it odd?  Yes. 
Does it fit with IT?  Yes. 
Could is just be a dream?  Yes. 

That's the problem with dreams - they are more open to interpretation than ANYTHING else because the normal rules are suspended, discarded or applied on a whim.  Dreams in entertainment are often used to foreshadow events, show guilt or motivations. 

Don't get hung up on the little things.  I really doubt if IT is true that Bioware is going to point to the dreams and say "did you notice the sounds?"  Or point to the tree shapes on the citadel and say "did you notice the trees?" 

They are going to point to the following:   (again, just my opinion) 

1) Control & Synthesis were ideas put forth by indoctrinated antagonists. (TIM & Saren) Why would you believe they were ever right?


2) Anderson gets shot, while Shepard is the one clutching and grabbing his side


3) Harbinger can easily target others and instantly vaporizes them, but the blast hits in front of Shepard – which only wounds, instead of killing.


4) The Reapers has said time and time again that their purpose is unfathomable to organics. They said they have no beginning and no end. Yet the Star Kid sums up their purpose simply and says it’s his plan, making the reapers part of his plan. Plus the idiocy of the plan. We don’t want organics whipped out by synthetics, so we’re going to use synthetics to kill you, but not all of you. Why not just kill the other synthetics instead?


5) TIM is able to control both Shepard and Anderson? How? The reapers have never shown that kind of influence over someone who wasn’t indoctrinated. How could TIM use reaper-tech better than the reapers?


6) The Star-Kid says the Citadel is part of it. Well, if that’s the case, then how were the Protheans able to sabotage the Citadel so the reapers couldn’t jump directly there from Dark Space. The Star-Kid should have been able to correct for that which totally invalidates ME1.


7) When Shepard chooses Control or Synthesis his/her eyes change to become like TIM’s.

1) I'll just answer the first one. You have to remember that there is a profound difference between events pre and post-Catalyst. Before control is offered as an option controlling the Reapers is not possible without the very real possibility of being controlled by them (as what happened to the Illusive Man). However, by the end, you can actually control the Reapers without any real risk of side-effects (as has been established by the narrative) and so it becomes a much better solution to the problem.

Because you have every reason to believe the Reapers, I mean why would they lie to you? they were conpletely honest with TIM afterall..

If we take the endings literally and there indeed is a profound change pre and post-catalyst, then Bioware did a ****** poor job of presenting that. We just see a man who believed reapers could be controlled actually turning out to be controlled, an unknown entity comes to me and says forget all that, we'd never lie to you and I'm supposed to believe that? Sorry, cant. To me, IDT or literal, destroy is the best option, no matter what it takes. I'd rather kill the reapers while I can, than try to control them and venture into an unknown territory hoping everything will be fine. That's not how my (and my Shep's) mind operates.

Modifié par pirate1802, 08 mai 2012 - 05:09 .

[whateverman7]

llbountyhunter wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...

bigstig wrote...

 they also said to keep your DA:O save which had next to zero impact on DA:2 other than a few comments or reoccurrin characters  

not up on the terminology, not sure what DA:O nor DA:2 means

different game: dragon age orginins. made by completly different bioware teams.

ok, thanks...in that case bigstig, that has nothing to do with them saying keep your saves for this game....so far in ME, the major choices we made have carried over from game to game....that's why i think for them to say that means another game is coming...

[Simon_Says]

whateverman7 wrote...

bigstig wrote...

 they also said to keep your DA:O save which had next to zero impact on DA:2 other than a few comments or reoccurrin characters  

not up on the terminology, not sure what DA:O nor DA:2 means

Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2. (there shouldn't be a colon in the second one)

[ExtendedCut]

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

 My personal biggest red flags that make me lean towards IT:

• Why do they only show Shepard profusely bleeding from the side after he shoots Anderson in the same location? That's a lot of blood to have not been noticable before the TIM showdown...
• Why does the Catalyst appear as a figure obviously taken from Shepard's subconscious?
• Why does Shepard have to disintegrate in order to achieve Control or Synthesis? The Catalyst said that Synthesis required him (Reapers) as well. I didn't see him jumping in the beam.
• Why do Shepard's eyes turn to the signature Husk design if you pick Control or Synthesis?
• Why do Shepard's eyes stay normal if you pick Destroy?
• Why show Shepard barely alive in rubble with no context of his condition/location, unless more was planned?

Nice.  I agree completely, especially with your second point - Starkid looking like the vent-kid.  The only one that I would add (that really bugs me) is the apparent ambiguity of Control and Synthesis.  For example - what does Control mean in the context of what we know about the world of ME?  Since it looks like Shepard dies immediately after choosing Control, then how, exactly, does he control the Reapers?  Or is BW introducing a whole new genre - the Paranormal Sci-Fi game, since Shepard's ghost is now permanently haunting the Citadel while also in control of the baddest badguys ever?

[DirtyPhoenix]

ExtendedCut wrote...

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

 My personal biggest red flags that make me lean towards IT:

• Why do they only show Shepard profusely bleeding from the side after he shoots Anderson in the same location? That's a lot of blood to have not been noticable before the TIM showdown...
• Why does the Catalyst appear as a figure obviously taken from Shepard's subconscious?
• Why does Shepard have to disintegrate in order to achieve Control or Synthesis? The Catalyst said that Synthesis required him (Reapers) as well. I didn't see him jumping in the beam.
• Why do Shepard's eyes turn to the signature Husk design if you pick Control or Synthesis?
• Why do Shepard's eyes stay normal if you pick Destroy?
• Why show Shepard barely alive in rubble with no context of his condition/location, unless more was planned?

Nice.  I agree completely, especially with your second point - Starkid looking like the vent-kid.  The only one that I would add (that really bugs me) is the apparent ambiguity of Control and Synthesis.  For example - what does Control mean in the context of what we know about the world of ME?  Since it looks like Shepard dies immediately after choosing Control, then how, exactly, does he control the Reapers?  Or is BW introducing a whole new genre - the Paranormal Sci-Fi game, since Shepard's ghost is now permanently haunting the Citadel while also in control of the baddest badguys ever?

It can represent Shepard's physical body being destroy while his mind being preserved as an AI-type entity? But then starkid says "you will lose everything you have", so... I dont know, his mind is a part of him inst it? To quote Wrex: "This whole control option smells wrong".

Modifié par pirate1802, 08 mai 2012 - 05:12 .

[Simon_Says]

Fuzzball_7 wrote...

So I'm quite new to this whole Indoctrination Theory thing, and it's certainly interesting! If it was intentional by Bioware (Which I'm getting the feeling it wasn't. But who can say?), then it's a pretty clever end to the game, although does beg there to be more added, which seems a bit wrong to not release a game with the complete story!

Anyway, I wanted to comment on something which I think people are jumping on too readily: the issue of Shepard's eyes. Perhaps this has been addressed before, but, you know, this topic is over two thousand pages...

Why do people associate this particular pattern (blue eyes with three smaller cirlces around it) with being indoctrinated? People say The Illusive Man has eyes like that and he was indoctrinated, but his eyes always had that pattern. From the moment you first see him in ME2, his eyes always have the same pattern. I always thought that TIM isn't indoctrinated in ME2 (What opportunity would he have to be so?), and his eyes are just artificial enhancements for himself. If his eyes dramatically changed in appearance as he was indoctrinated in ME3, and Shepard's eyes at the end resembled that new pattern, that would be something. But as far as I'm aware, TIM's eyes always stay the same.

As for Shepard's eyes changing to that pattern in the Control and Synthesis endings... I was wondering: At the start of ME2, when Shepard is being rebuilt by Project Lazarus, does the cutscene show anything to do with his/her eyes? Shepard is rebuilt basically from scratch, with many artificial enhancements made to his/her body. Surely modifications would be made to his/her eyes? They could be essentially completely artificial, with this blue ring pattern an indication of that, and then just have a more natural iris color imposed on top. As Shepard's body is ripped apart in Synthesis or Control, you see this underlying artificial eye layer before he/she is completely disintegrated.

Of course, if that is the case, then it's a bit odd that it's never indicated anywhere at all before that point at the very end of the trilogy! I'm just speculating and showing that I guess most pieces of evidence for the Indoctrination Theory can mean several, completely different things.

Yes, Shepard has cybernetic eyes. Except they're drastically different from TIM's. Upside down compared to TIM's, solid pupil, no outer ring. Shepard's cybernetics are only visible if you play heavily renegade and don't get the dermal regeneration upgrades in either 2 or 3.

TIM's eyes were shown to be the result of exposure to a reaper artifact in Mass Effect: Evolution (a comic series). Saren had similar blue eyes and so do husks, hence why we associate it with indoctrination.

[DJBare]

SubAstris wrote...
Just because there are Reaper noises doesn't mean there is an indoctrination attempt. The dreams reflect what Shepard has lost and how he has lost it, so it is no surprise that the Reapers make an appearance as they are the cause of all this, along with deceased squadmates

Blimey, seems to be a case of deja vu on the forums, who says the dream reflect Shepards loss?, I view the dreams as a message of "futility"; the boy is a representation that no matter how hard Shepard tries s/he cannot win, does not matter if your renegade or paragon, your goal is to stop the reapers, the dream is an attempt at demoralizing Shepard.

[ExtendedCut]

pirate1802 wrote...


It can represent Shepard's physical body being destroy while his mind being preserved as an AI-type entity? But then starkid says "you will lose everything you have", so... I dont know, his mind is a part of him inst it? To quote Wrex: "This whole control option smells wrong".

Yeah, you may be right, but I can't think of any point in ME where this actually happens.  Maybe I'm just forgetting something...

To me, it seems like Control would have two results, neither of which are satisfactory wihtout IT or major plot holes:

1) Like you said, Shepard's mind somehow becomes "uploaded" into the Citadel or into the Catalyst and continues to control the Reapers by essentially becoming the new Starbrat.  If that's the case, what does the new-and-improved-Shepard/Starbrat-hybrid do with the Reapers under his Control?  Does he just start the cycles over again?  Or does he send the Reapers back to Dark Space to hang out forever?  Or does shepard turn Harbie into his own personal butler?

2) Shepard really does die, there is no space-magic-brain/AI-linkage and the Reapers win because Shepard didn't Control them (because he's dead) or Destroy them (because he made the wrong choice).

[Fuzzball_7]

Simon_Says wrote...

Yes, Shepard has cybernetic eyes. Except they're drastically different from TIM's. Upside down compared to TIM's, solid pupil, no outer ring. Shepard's cybernetics are only visible if you play heavily renegade and don't get the dermal regeneration upgrades in either 2 or 3.

TIM's eyes were shown to be the result of exposure to a reaper artifact in Mass Effect: Evolution (a comic series). Saren had similar blue eyes and so do husks, hence why we associate it with indoctrination.

OK, that's fair enough. Evidently I was missing some information there.

Indoctrination really does seem to be too powerful a force though... From reading a summary of that comic, it seems TIM only briefly interacts with some Reaper artifact once or twice (Saren only once), and that just plants a seed which makes them go out and search for Reaper technology, getting further indoctrinated. With the amount of Reaper technology Shepard encounters, he should be well indoctrinated before the start of ME3!

Doesn't the Codex in ME3 say something about TIM's eyes though? Something about how they're implants but not knowing their function. Of course that doesn't comment at all on them being a Reaper influence.

One final thing: TIM (as Jack Harper) gets hit by the Reaper artifact in Mass Effect: Evolution, but does he instantly then have blue eyes after that? When do they appear? (That wasn't mentioned in the summary I read.) Also, no one things it suspicious that this guy suddenly has very artificial looking eyes after interacting with some alien technology?

Modifié par Fuzzball_7, 08 mai 2012 - 05:29 .

[Stigweird85]

Simon_Says wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...

bigstig wrote...

 they also said to keep your DA:O save which had next to zero impact on DA:2 other than a few comments or reoccurrin characters  

not up on the terminology, not sure what DA:O nor DA:2 means

Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2. (there shouldn't be a colon in the second one)

I know it's a different side of Bioware but the original context was something along the lines of why would we be asked to keep our saves if there was nothing else coming.  I just wanted to point out that just because we may be able to import saves into whatever follows doesn't mean that Shepard will be involved in Mass Effect 4 etc

[DirtyPhoenix]

ExtendedCut wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...


It can represent Shepard's physical body being destroy while his mind being preserved as an AI-type entity? But then starkid says "you will lose everything you have", so... I dont know, his mind is a part of him inst it? To quote Wrex: "This whole control option smells wrong".

Yeah, you may be right, but I can't think of any point in ME where this actually happens.  Maybe I'm just forgetting something...

To me, it seems like Control would have two results, neither of which are satisfactory wihtout IT or major plot holes:

1) Like you said, Shepard's mind somehow becomes "uploaded" into the Citadel or into the Catalyst and continues to control the Reapers by essentially becoming the new Starbrat.  If that's the case, what does the new-and-improved-Shepard/Starbrat-hybrid do with the Reapers under his Control?  Does he just start the cycles over again?  Or does he send the Reapers back to Dark Space to hang out forever?  Or does shepard turn Harbie into his own personal butler?

2) Shepard really does die, there is no space-magic-brain/AI-linkage and the Reapers win because Shepard didn't Control them (because he's dead) or Destroy them (because he made the wrong choice).

True and True. That is why I cannot think of control being a good option no matter what anyone says. There is no reference anywhere in the game for this to be believed, infact we see the opposite. Reapers let TIM believe he can control them while actually controlling him, and the same reapers are being completely honest to SHepard, their biggest obstacle.. because?

Actually I heard this before even starting the game, that the options are killing the reapers; become an AI; or being disintegrated and broadcasted XD lol. I thought back then how can Shep become an AI, now I know..


Also, assuming they are being honest, and Shep becomes the new starbrat, how do we know that after losing everything she has (in starbrat's words), she will be the same Shepard we know of, that she would not restart the cycle sometime later?

Modifié par pirate1802, 08 mai 2012 - 05:34 .

[RealStyli]

 Regarding TIM's eyes, according to "The Art of the Mass Effect Universe" book:

"A lot of attention was paid to the implants in his eyes, the intent being to give him a subtly inhuman look"

I was also of the belief that he was indoctrinated via exposure to the Reaper artifact in ME:Evolution but this quote from the book would indicate that it was an augmentation. Then again, that quote appears in the Mass Effect 2 section of the book so it may have been intended originally as an implant during the concept stage for TIM but, after Evolution, retroactively explained with indoctrination.

[EpyonX3]

Thorn Harvestar wrote...

 My personal biggest red flags that make me lean towards IT:

• Why do they only show Shepard profusely bleeding from the side after he shoots Anderson in the same location? That's a lot of blood to have not been noticable before the TIM showdown...
• Why does the Catalyst appear as a figure obviously taken from Shepard's subconscious?
• Why does Shepard have to disintegrate in order to achieve Control or Synthesis? The Catalyst said that Synthesis required him (Reapers) as well. I didn't see him jumping in the beam.
• Why do Shepard's eyes turn to the signature Husk design if you pick Control or Synthesis?
• Why do Shepard's eyes stay normal if you pick Destroy?
• Why show Shepard barely alive in rubble with no context of his condition/location, unless more was planned?

1) Shepard graps his abdomen if you don't walk for a bit. He also grabs it when TIM first walks in. His wound was already there and possibly bleeding already.

2) Because the catalyst wants to live and tries to relate to shepard so he doesn't always pick destroy. We don't know what the Catalyst is, but if he came in looking like a reaper, Shepard would start blasting him on sight.

3) Can't say why, this is similar to asking how green waves turn you into a hybrid.

4) Again, I can't fight this one. There are some suggestions about the eyes being synthetic and all but I don't know.

5) We don't see SHepard after the tube blows up. He could have those eyes or he probably won't. We don't know.

6) An easter egg for dedicated fans who will play the game as much as possible to get this ending.

[EpyonX3]

Big Bad wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

I don't know if it will help anything, or if I'm reposting a version of something people have already posted, but I took this shot that kinda encapsulates the game's concrete idea of "rebar".

Whoa! That seems like a pretty important find to me! Good catch!

But that looks nothing like this: