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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#5276
Fattness132

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Kyzee wrote...

OKay, wait: another question. If the Destroy option means the indoctrination failed, then why would you still see the scenes with the Normandy crew getting stranded? (Also, does the grandfather/grandchild scene also happen with the Destroy choice?) In both cases, this would go against the theory.

I'm really not trying to troll here, btw. I'm looking for clarification to see if this truly makes sense, rather than it being me simply *wanting* it to make sense. I want my happy ending, d*** it!


It could simply be all in shepard's head (seeing as the indoctrination is still messing with what he thinks is really happening). He perceives that the destroy option (or any other) means his/her own destruction and his/her last thoughts turn to the squadmates / friends. Just my thoughts.

#5277
lookingglassmind

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rogueagent6 wrote...

Guess I'll quote myself here since most people seem to skip it...

rogueagent6 wrote...

Went back and checked the in-game codex. The following is quoted directly from the Indoctrination entry, paragraph 2:

"Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify it's signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind."

There it is, the whole ending is Shepard fighting those exact symptoms.


This is key to the theory.

Thank you for posting it again, rougeagent6.

OT: poor Shep.

#5278
Ona Demonie

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Kyzee wrote...

OKay, wait: another question. If the Destroy option means the indoctrination failed, then why would you still see the scenes with the Normandy crew getting stranded? (Also, does the grandfather/grandchild scene also happen with the Destroy choice?) In both cases, this would go against the theory.

I'm really not trying to troll here, btw. I'm looking for clarification to see if this truly makes sense, rather than it being me simply *wanting* it to make sense. I want my happy ending, d*** it!

We addressed that the Normandy crew is a way for Shepard to get closure. If you recall, a lot of your squad mates talked about going somewhere "sunny" or things of that matter. As for the Grandfather scene, recall Liara's time capsules. Most likely, the grandfather and the others discovered one of the time capsules and passed down Shepard's story for many years.

#5279
SomeoneStoleMyName

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I think Shepard is the catalyst.

Not shepard himself but being an organic that can resist the strongest of indoctrination.

Maybe the citadel isnt a weapon in a physical sense, but a doorway to the reaper AI core.

Meaning that the failsafe/catalyst to stop the reapers is for an organic to resist the strongest indoctrination attempt possible.

Think about it, if the builders of the reapers feared synthetics destroying all organic life. What better test to overcome it than to create the strongest synthetic force possible (Reapers) with the final test being this:

1: (citadel) Organic life has to be strong enough to reach the citadel (Meaning allying instead of destroying eachother) this proves organic life is PHYSICALLY STRONG ENOUGH TO DEFY SYNTHETICS. And culturally/morally strong enough to stand together.

2: (catalyst) Organic life needs to be strong enough to defy the AI programming, the WILL of the synthetics aswell.

I think this is the 2 tests for the cycle to end. Organic life must stand together, be physically strong enough AND mentally strong enough to defy the synthetics in its strongest form (reapers)

The citadel provides the oppurtunity for organics to win both these battles. Therefore it isnt directly a weapon, but a test. My prediction is that when Shepard defies indoctrination - a failsafe triggers and the reapers shut down or are destroyed. Because finally organics are strong enough to defy synthetics on their own, and thus the reapers are no longer needed.

#5280
Tony_Knightcrawler

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TcomJ, can we keep the fanon to its own thread? This thread is for wild speculation. :)

And as absurd as it sounds, this theory actually seems plausible to me. Whether BioWare will complete the ending or not, who knows...

#5281
MatthewGold

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Not sure if this has already been addressed, but is it possible that Shepard was infected by Reaper code somehow during the Geth Fighter Squadron mission?

#5282
TcomJ

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http://social.biowar...index/9833130/1

GURS READ THIS ENDING!! I PROMISE YOU WILL LOVE IT!!!

#5283
ArkkAngel007

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VonJedi1 wrote...

Perhaps people have mentioned this already and I may just be speculating.

In terms of Anderson and TIM in the confrontation. They seem to be two sides of the same coin. They want relatively the same thing and are both sides of Shepards conscious. Anderson being the incorruptable, willing to do anything to save the galaxy, and TIM road to hell paved with good intentions style thing, much like Saren. I think the whole interaction with them is just Shepards subconscious struggling to find its moral bearing, with one of them being indoctrinated and the other that hasn't.

Also, I've seen the synthesis ending and just before he disintegrates he seemed very "huskish" which adds credence to the indoctrination theory. Being that he is giving in and being turned into a husk, just before being destroyed. Mentally at least.


I finished the game a few hours ago, chose the Synthesis ending, and noticed the same thing to where I went "Well sh**...".

#5284
Dougremer

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CaptnObvious wrote...

Well, I saw those endings and... I felt that it destroyed so much of what the game stood for, I just could'nt believe it.

I just made my own theory, to be sure to have closure for everything: Everyone dies.
That shot from harbinger vaporized you and Anderson. Harby then went for the crew of the Normandy (see how determined and focused he looks like when you "regain consciousness"). Remember, moments before they show a long cinematic where Turians, Krogans and Asaris just get annihilated by the beam. That also explains why you suddenly see your friends hanging on a beautiful planet : got vaporized too. Just like TIM sees a beautiful earth just before dying, everyone sees something beautiful in their death. Also, TIM was actually transformed into a husk during his attempt. What you see in the Citadel is just his remaining consciousness which was already indoctrinated, hence his darker, blight-like appearance.

The conduct, and all the way to the Catalyst, it's just getting from Hell to Heaven. Start out in the red, have a tenous walk to the yellow, then you get lifted to the blue/white light.

Also, there are many paths that lead to the central chamber, but only Shepard's path is the right one. What you see in the end is just basically your consciousness being absorbed by the Catalyst. That's why it's so odd that Anderson, getting "in the beam after you" is in fact on the same path as you, just farther up front. I guess he had less deaths on his hands, or something like that, so he didn't have to take such a long walk. I had more ideas but they kinda got lost while i slept.

But, all in all, the Reaper's won, everyone's dead.

Beside, i think the little boy AI is added by Grandpa to get his grandson's interest... That's why it feels so Space Magic: it is. It's a fairy tale of a long lost human tale. In the end, the Stargazer's we see aren't even humans, they're some other specie. The humans got reaped.

The endings where so bad, that i prefer having my LI and all my friends dead with me, then having them get out of the Normandy super-happy about Shep's death.

This all might seem convoluted, but it's a theory i rather have. At least it gives closure.


This could also be very true theory. Got me thinking of this:

"Did Donnie make the choice to go back into his room and die when the airplane engine hit?"
"Well, the film is about what happens when he decides to get out of bed. You saw what happened when he got out of bed. I think that’s part of the experience of the film. There’s an old “Twilight Zone” episode called “An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge,” which I might be mistaken but I think it’s about a guy in the Civil War. He’s got a noose around his neck and all of a sudden the noose breaks. He escapes and he’s chased through the woods. He goes and meets a woman or something and then he realizes that that whole experience was like this instantaneous moment/memory that he has as he’s being hung. I think that this film is sort of, I guess, similar to that idea – or I’m just ripping that off (laughing)."

Interview with the director of Donnie Darko. You can read the whole interview here.
I don't like the theory, cause I want Shepard to live. But it could also fit in, that he just want to make up for his/hers failure. That if he/she choose to sacrifice himself his mind makes up a fake scenario that everyone he/she loves survives. So the whole last scene is just him/her about to die.

Hope not though :(

Modifié par Dougremer, 12 mars 2012 - 11:25 .


#5285
blooregard

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Kyzee wrote...

OKay, wait: another question. If the Destroy option means the indoctrination failed, then why would you still see the scenes with the Normandy crew getting stranded? (Also, does the grandfather/grandchild scene also happen with the Destroy choice?) In both cases, this would go against the theory.

I'm really not trying to troll here, btw. I'm looking for clarification to see if this truly makes sense, rather than it being me simply *wanting* it to make sense. I want my happy ending, d*** it!



I think somebody earlier said that the whole thing is a hallucination you're imagining what happens after you made the choice 

#5286
G0thicRhino

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lookingglassmind wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

byne wrote...

Ugh, seems like everytime I copy/paste something to add to the first post, the formatting gets all screwed up, and I have to go back and re-edit it to make it look correct.


Really appreciate all the work you're putting into the first post.


Yes, seriously.

To Byne: Thank you. You have put in so much work into helping the community understand this theory. I know it was not your intention to create a monster thread, so each of us is in your debt for upholding and maintaining it.

My hat is off to you.


Indeed. Many thanks to you! <3

#5287
Malanek

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I must admit, after seeing this thread yesterday and completely dismissing it as bats**t crazy, I'm starting to come around. There have been some pretty good arguments put up about it. I still believe it should have actually been in the game. But if this does turn out to be true, and always planned by Bioware it will be an unparalleled ending.

#5288
Deltateam Elcor

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TcomJ wrote...

http://social.biowar...index/9833130/1

GURS READ THIS ENDING!! I PROMISE YOU WILL LOVE IT!!!


People have, unfortunately it would be too late to implement the idea ingame, id imagine.

#5289
Dessalines

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Golferguy758 wrote...

I swear I'm getting more and more frustrated by people coming and saying "NU UH NO WAY BIOWARE COULD DO THIS" Without bothering to read any of the evidence(conjecture) provided. And following up without providing any counter argument other than "Bioware is teh dummy heads"

We aren't saying this is 100% fact. it is still conjecture, but the evidence points to a logical conclusion. Could it be wrong? Sure. Could Bioware have something up their sleeve? of course. This thread provides hope. Hope that Bioware didn't fumble at the one. Hope that Bioware cared enough for it's crown jewel that they wouldn't tarnish it. Just. Hope.

Oh and read. Read at least the first page.

I also tired reading about people thinking this is about a happy ending. It is not about a happy ending. It is about an ending that make sense. In Dragon Age, you basically came down to three choices on how to deal with the archdemon and Morrigan. One of those choices was death, but you know what happen, they told you what happen with each of your comrades, what happen with the nation, various armies your gathered togather, and the choices you made along the way played into the decision.  I mean you even have a small blib about people who were not even close to being main characters, but they still told you what happen to them. This is about Bioware doing what they already proven they  can do. Mass Effect 2, if everyone dies, it does not end with Shep falling into the chasm. The story goes on for another three to five minutes to wrap things up.  Bioware has done settings when people have died, and we still played their games. It has nothing to do with that. It is about closure.

#5290
Nette

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Just noticed something about Sheps dreams don't know if it's been said before....there are no oily shaddows or whispers in her first dream, just the kid. And in the last one they almost cover the whole forest....maybe something that supports this theory of indoctrination...

#5291
rogueagent6

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lookingglassmind wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

byne wrote...

Ugh, seems like everytime I copy/paste something to add to the first post, the formatting gets all screwed up, and I have to go back and re-edit it to make it look correct.


Really appreciate all the work you're putting into the first post.


Yes, seriously.

To Byne: Thank you. You have put in so much work into helping the community understand this theory. I know it was not your intention to create a monster thread, so each of us is in your debt for upholding and maintaining it.

My hat is off to you.


Seconded, Thanks Byne! If it wasn't for you, most people would still be inserting foot in mouth, myself included. :o

#5292
SomeoneStoleMyName

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Dessalines wrote...

The only reason I am not sure about the indoc theory is when you donn't do anything you don't get a critical mission failurer. You get the message: The crucible has been destroyed.


This could simply mean that you are killed by apathy. You dont have the strength or means to make a choice and you die IRL from brain damage due to taking to long time to decide. 

It could also mean that while you are indoctrinated, the reapers physically destroy the citadel IRL before you defy the reaper AI.

#5293
Catreina-JTV

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frajerik wrote...

kyrieee wrote...

omgBAMF wrote...

I've been on-board the whole "ending is a dream/indoc/hallucination" thing for a while now, but now I know for a fact it is such once someone posted a pic of the "dream tree" in London after getting blasted by Harby.

http://i40.tinypic.com/2a8kxhx.jpg 

Someone also mentioned that the power conduit (that you shoot in the destroy ending) looks VERY similar to the tubes holding up skeletor-reaper at the end of ME2.  This is just another (on top of many) thing that is similar in the dream to instances in Shep's past.

I feel like tweeting this thread to Gamble and telling him "HEY... we're on to you!"


I already said this, but there are trees there during the rush down the hill as well

Watch in HD, fullscreen
They're on the right, where the last Mako gets blown up


Its interesting that the reaper is saying "you resist" resist to what? maybe indocrination? also camera is shaking very strangely...


Shepard: "You know who I am?"

Reaper: "Harbinger speaks of you. You resist. But you will fail."


That is directly to Shepard about Shepard. The rest of the conversation is about the rest of the human race 

#5294
Scottish_highlander

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SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Dessalines wrote...

The only reason I am not sure about the indoc theory is when you donn't do anything you don't get a critical mission failurer. You get the message: The crucible has been destroyed.


This could simply mean that you are killed by apathy. You dont have the strength or means to make a choice and you die IRL from brain damage due to taking to long time to decide. 

It could also mean that while you are indoctrinated, the reapers physically destroy the citadel IRL before you defy the reaper AI.



Apathy is death! :lol: Man i love me some KOTOR 2 quotage

#5295
De1ta G

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There is too much evidence for this not to be true. I know longer consider this a theory.

#5296
underthumb

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rogueagent6 wrote...

Went back and checked the in-game codex. The following is quoted directly from the Indoctrination entry, paragraph 2:

"Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify it's signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind."

There it is, the whole ending is Shepard fighting those exact symptoms.


But that isn't what happened. Shepard did not hallucinate ghostly presences, she/he dreamt of them. That was established in-game, because Shepard always woke up from those sequences. Do you see the critical difference? Dreams are not hallucinations, and weird things happen in dreams, including nightmares.

Unless of course you're simply referring to the fact that the star child, in the end, was kind of non-coporeal, which seems like a fairly weak connection.

Modifié par underthumb, 12 mars 2012 - 11:30 .


#5297
Martukis

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Johnnycide wrote...

My theory:

The scene where you see Shepard's body among the rubble, either breathing or not breathing is supposed to followed by zooming out and you realize Shepard never left Eden Prime, it wasn't Jenkins who died to the Geth drones it was Shepard, and all the events afterwards were the actions of the true galactic hero, Conrad Verner.



#5298
Miss Vader

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Nette wrote...

Just noticed something about Sheps dreams don't know if it's been said before....there are no oily shaddows or whispers in her first dream, just the kid. And in the last one they almost cover the whole forest....maybe something that supports this theory of indoctrination...


Good catch! Could be that later on you are becoming even more indoctrinated- hence more black oily shadows

#5299
LoveAsThouWilt

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I just realized that it seems like the child was pushing for Synthesis. And that they needed Shepard to do it, made me recall Harbingers yelling all throughout ME2 via the collectors about how much he either 'wants Shepard alive" or "wants his body preserved" as if they NEED him to change the cycle to its most ultimate form, accomplishing their goals (preserving organics as Reapers) by synthesizing both as the "same" dna.

Just a thought... Damn it Bioware, stop with the mind tricks! lol

#5300
cyric085

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the real proof to this theory is the destroy all "reapers" choice, which left you alive and in a pile of rubble in the end, despite the fact that we "saw" the citadel exploding.