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[EpyonX3]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

We already confimed a few pages back that similar cables are strewn throughout the game. They're utterly generic. Not to mention that there were plenty of reaper cables around the conduit to begin with.

Got a screenshot of that? I used flycam and saw no cables at all before getting hit by Harby and after.

Bump. I'd really like to see this.

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

He is the controller of the Reapers. He initiated the Reaper cycles to stop organics becoming too advanced so that they would not create synthetics which they couldn't control. This is a drastic solution, but one taken nonetheless in response to a big problem. However with the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Catalyst has changed, he no longer sees the Reapers as a viable option. It is part of a new age, along with everyone else. The mistakes of before now do not matter so much, and a new future is being planned

It's funny how they want to keep us from getting too advanced yet they leave all this tech around on purpose so that we actually advance faster than we're supposed to huh?

Modifié par balance5050, 08 mai 2012 - 06:28 .

[ExtendedCut]

SubAstris wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

*snip

They are going to point to the following:   (again, just my opinion) 

1) Control & Synthesis were ideas put forth by indoctrinated antagonists. (TIM & Saren) Why would you believe they were ever right?

*snip

 

1) I'll just answer the first one. You have to remember that there is a profound difference between events pre and post-Catalyst. Before control is offered as an option controlling the Reapers is not possible without the very real possibility of being controlled by them (as what happened to the Illusive Man). However, by the end, you can actually control the Reapers without any real risk of side-effects (as has been established by the narrative) and so it becomes a much better solution to the problem.

The star kid is an agent of the reapers or controls the reapers. It is still apart of "that system."  There's no way I would trust the star kid.  (my choice.) 

He is the controller of the Reapers. He initiated the Reaper cycles to stop organics becoming too advanced so that they would not create synthetics which they couldn't control. This is a drastic solution, but one taken nonetheless in response to a big problem. However with the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Catalyst has changed, he no longer sees the Reapers as a viable option. It is part of a new age, along with everyone else. The mistakes of before now do not matter so much, and a new future is being planned

So, assuming that Starkid is telling the truth, then are the Reapers just posturing and/or full of sh!t when they tell Shepard that their "motives are beyond our comprehension"?   Because Starkid's actual motive seems simple to the point of amusement.  A drunk monkey could understand Starkid's motive.

[EpyonX3]

Dwailing wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


1) We've had this talk before. My beliefs that his arms seem to be covered in blood more than any other time is because the increased the level of detail for that particular scene hasn't changed. Anderson, Shepard and TIM's faces are pretty well detailed in one shot but normal in others. Pay close attenton to how the detail in Shepard's face and arm blood change throughout that last level.

The main point is Anderson was shot and he died but there is no blood or even a hole where there should be on him. That's the point is that they  show a wound on Shep and not Anderson even though we were lead to beleive that Anderson was shot, basically.

Shep = wounded and bleeding

Anderson = No wound no bleeding

Technically, there are not ME characters that have bullet wounds. Except for Legion of course. We don't actually see a wound for Shepard, just his armor and an arm covered in blood.

The closest we get to seeing a gunshot wound is the one on Jacob, which looks more like a scratch. What's more intersting about that is that the wound is on his right side, but he still limps holding his left.

Actually, the shot was a through and through.  There are wound marks on each side.  So it really isn't weird that Jacob is holding his left side, since he was injured there, too.

But a shot going through and through going right to left would have been bound to hit an organ or artery. He would have died.

What I'm trying to get at is that the left side of the body seems very popular among injured people. Admiral Ra'an, Jacob, Shepard, The admiral you punch in the gut, I forget his name.

[MegumiAzusa]

Btw if we compare with Matrix: Anderson. Admiral Anderson is the One! Not Neo
(This would make Shep Trinity though )

[Dwailing]

ExtendedCut wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

*snip

They are going to point to the following:   (again, just my opinion) 

1) Control & Synthesis were ideas put forth by indoctrinated antagonists. (TIM & Saren) Why would you believe they were ever right?

*snip

 

1) I'll just answer the first one. You have to remember that there is a profound difference between events pre and post-Catalyst. Before control is offered as an option controlling the Reapers is not possible without the very real possibility of being controlled by them (as what happened to the Illusive Man). However, by the end, you can actually control the Reapers without any real risk of side-effects (as has been established by the narrative) and so it becomes a much better solution to the problem.

The star kid is an agent of the reapers or controls the reapers. It is still apart of "that system."  There's no way I would trust the star kid.  (my choice.) 

He is the controller of the Reapers. He initiated the Reaper cycles to stop organics becoming too advanced so that they would not create synthetics which they couldn't control. This is a drastic solution, but one taken nonetheless in response to a big problem. However with the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Catalyst has changed, he no longer sees the Reapers as a viable option. It is part of a new age, along with everyone else. The mistakes of before now do not matter so much, and a new future is being planned

So, assuming that Starkid is telling the truth, then are the Reapers just posturing and/or full of sh!t when they tell Shepard that their "motives are beyond our comprehension"?   Because Starkid's actual motive seems simple to the point of amusement.  A drunk monkey could understand Starkid's motive.

Of course, you'd have to be a drunk monkey to think that his motivations make any sense whatsoever.

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Actually, the shot was a through and through.  There are wound marks on each side.  So it really isn't weird that Jacob is holding his left side, since he was injured there, too.

But a shot going through and through going right to left would have been bound to hit an organ or artery. He would have died.

What I'm trying to get at is that the left side of the body seems very popular among injured people. Admiral Ra'an, Jacob, Shepard, The admiral you punch in the gut, I forget his name.

The point is they animated Jacobs wounds as well, you can see the rip in his armor.

Why didn't they slap a wound texture on Anderson?

Modifié par balance5050, 08 mai 2012 - 06:17 .

[MaximizedAction]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Btw if we compare with Matrix: Anderson. Admiral Anderson is the One! Not Neo
(This would make Shep Trinity though )

Negative, there can be no retreat, NO RETREAT, no flying back, no flying forward and no defeating the machines!

[Dwailing]

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Actually, the shot was a through and through.  There are wound marks on each side.  So it really isn't weird that Jacob is holding his left side, since he was injured there, too.

But a shot going through and through going right to left would have been bound to hit an organ or artery. He would have died.

What I'm trying to get at is that the left side of the body seems very popular among injured people. Admiral Ra'an, Jacob, Shepard, The admiral you punch in the gut, I forget his name.

The point is they animated Jacobs wounds as well, you can see the rip in his armor.

Why didn't they slap a wound texture on Anderson?

Jacob had a wound texture, Udina had a texture when you shot him, it seems like it would be stupid for them to have NOT done something for Anderson.

[MegumiAzusa]

MaximizedAction wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Btw if we compare with Matrix: Anderson. Admiral Anderson is the One! Not Neo
(This would make Shep Trinity though )

Negative, there can be no retreat, NO RETREAT, no flying back, no flying forward and no defeating the machines!

Meh I meant to write "Btw if we compare with Matrix: Mr. Anderson. Admiral Anderson is the One! Not Shep!"
^^

[ExtendedCut]

Dwailing wrote...



Of course, you'd have to be a drunk monkey to think that his motivations make any sense whatsoever.

+1

[balance5050]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Btw if we compare with Matrix: Anderson. Admiral Anderson is the One! Not Neo
(This would make Shep Trinity though )

Negative, there can be no retreat, NO RETREAT, no flying back, no flying forward and no defeating the machines!

Meh I meant to write "Btw if we compare with Matrix: Mr. Anderson. Admiral Anderson is the One! Not Shep!"
^^

LOL! by name alone... if we go by actual description and traits then shepard is the one. I do realize that you're joking though.

[balance5050]

Dwailing wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Actually, the shot was a through and through.  There are wound marks on each side.  So it really isn't weird that Jacob is holding his left side, since he was injured there, too.

But a shot going through and through going right to left would have been bound to hit an organ or artery. He would have died.

What I'm trying to get at is that the left side of the body seems very popular among injured people. Admiral Ra'an, Jacob, Shepard, The admiral you punch in the gut, I forget his name.

The point is they animated Jacobs wounds as well, you can see the rip in his armor.

Why didn't they slap a wound texture on Anderson?

Jacob had a wound texture, Udina had a texture when you shot him, it seems like it would be stupid for them to have NOT done something for Anderson.

The scene would have been even more emotionally impacting if they showed a gruesome wound on him, but it seems like it's all on Shep, he lost so much blood that he couldn't even stand up....

Modifié par balance5050, 08 mai 2012 - 06:24 .

[Big Bad]

I would like to echo EpyonX3's request for pics of the cables on earth at the end. i know somebody posted some quite awhile back, but i don't remember exactly when or who posted them.

[Lakeshow1986]

I was watching a youtube video that brought the point up when the Catalyst says;

"You have hope, more than you think. The fact that you're standing here, the first organic ever proves it. But is also proves that my solution won't work anymore."

This made me think about how the focus of the conversation shifts after this. Before it's talking about how the reapers are needed to ensure organics as a whole survive, by removing the threat of advanced races to create synthetics.

Shepard rejects this.

"I think we'd rather keep our own form"

"You're taking away our future, without a future we have no hope. Without hope we may as well be machines."

This is when we are presented with the new "solution". The catalyst cannot convince us that the reapers are essential without a new spin. The reapers final attack on Shepard is to offer the illusion of choice to finally satisfy Shepard. We are offered a "choice", it is from this point that the doubt sets in.

"Maybe"

"I don't know"

Shepard is less certain from this point onward after the new solution is presented to us. What we as the player must understand that control of the reapers establishes that Shepard accepts that control, not free will, is the best outcome. The idea of indoctrination is now fully implanted in his or her mind.

Synthesis is also understanding that this "pinnacle of evolution" is the process of creating a reaper. The reapers see themselves as this pinnacle, but they need organics to do this. Choosing this accepts that the reapers are the endpoint of all advanced civilizations.

Destroy is the only option that you can still reject the options that are given to you. From low EMS to high you are able to piece together the ending from the Normandy's door opening, to seeing the ground crew leave the Normandy to the scene of Shepard "waking up".

The end isn't the fight between Organics and Synthetics, it's a battle between Control and Freewill. The choice to still see through the lies and reject what is given to you.

It's interesting, the whole theme of the series is choice. It's the so called chaos of choice that the reapers oppose. Through their technology left behind (mass relays and the citadel) they aim to control organics, indoctrination is their strongest tool to aid this. Commander Shepard choosing the destroy option overcomes indoctrination, thus becoming the greatest weapon against the reapers.

TL/DR - Shepard is the first organic to resist the process of indoctrination this far, which is why the Catalyst requires a new solution in order to complete the process of indoctrination, which is the illusion of choice. By choosing destroy, Shepard is able to resist the final assault on their mind.

This new "solution" is designed to appease to our desire to choose our outcome, which is a trap.

[DJBare]

SubAstris wrote...

He is the controller of the Reapers. He initiated the Reaper cycles to stop organics becoming too advanced so that they would not create synthetics which they couldn't control. This is a drastic solution, but one taken nonetheless in response to a big problem. However with the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Catalyst has changed, he no longer sees the Reapers as a viable option. It is part of a new age, along with everyone else. The mistakes of before now do not matter so much, and a new future is being planned

Where is your proof of this?, where is your proof that the catalyst is even real, sorry but "The catalysts says so" is not proof.

[Tirian Thorn]

SubAstris wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

*snip

They are going to point to the following:   (again, just my opinion) 

1) Control & Synthesis were ideas put forth by indoctrinated antagonists. (TIM & Saren) Why would you believe they were ever right?

*snip

 

1) I'll just answer the first one. You have to remember that there is a profound difference between events pre and post-Catalyst. Before control is offered as an option controlling the Reapers is not possible without the very real possibility of being controlled by them (as what happened to the Illusive Man). However, by the end, you can actually control the Reapers without any real risk of side-effects (as has been established by the narrative) and so it becomes a much better solution to the problem.

The star kid is an agent of the reapers or controls the reapers. It is still apart of "that system."  There's no way I would trust the star kid.  (my choice.) 

He is the controller of the Reapers. He initiated the Reaper cycles to stop organics becoming too advanced so that they would not create synthetics which they couldn't control. This is a drastic solution, but one taken nonetheless in response to a big problem. However with the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Catalyst has changed, he no longer sees the Reapers as a viable option. It is part of a new age, along with everyone else. The mistakes of before now do not matter so much, and a new future is being planned

Sorry Sub, but what I'm saying is that if I've spent 3+ years fighting the reapers, I'm not about to trust a damn word they say. That's the end of the story for me.  I DO NOT TRUST what the reapers say. 

If I were about to be destroyed I'd say just about anything to get you to not destroy me. 

[Tirian Thorn]

DJBare wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

He is the controller of the Reapers. He initiated the Reaper cycles to stop organics becoming too advanced so that they would not create synthetics which they couldn't control. This is a drastic solution, but one taken nonetheless in response to a big problem. However with the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Catalyst has changed, he no longer sees the Reapers as a viable option. It is part of a new age, along with everyone else. The mistakes of before now do not matter so much, and a new future is being planned

Where is your proof of this?, where is your proof that the catalyst is even real, sorry but "The catalysts says so" is not proof.

That's like confronting a terrorist with a bomb strapped to their chest and they say "you've changed my mind, just hand me the detonator and we can get out of here together."  Are you really going to trust anything that maniac says?  No.  You'll put a bullet in his brain and be done with it. 

[DirtyPhoenix]

MaximizedAction wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Btw if we compare with Matrix: Anderson. Admiral Anderson is the One! Not Neo
(This would make Shep Trinity though )

Negative, there can be no retreat, NO RETREAT, no flying back, no flying forward and no defeating the machines!

hahahhahahhahaha I lol'ed so hard when I heard that the first time XD

[ExtendedCut]

Lakeshow1986 wrote...



TL/DR - Shepard is the first organic to resist the process of indoctrination this far, which is why the Catalyst requires a new solution in order to complete the process of indoctrination, which is the illusion of choice. By choosing destroy, Shepard is able to resist the final assault on their mind.

This new "solution" is designed to appease to our desire to choose our outcome, which is a trap.

Nice summary.  The part above is especially insightful.  Thanks.

I can't understand how the "A,B,C" choices would be available on the Citadel in the first place and/or how the mere presence of an organic being would suddenly change everything with regards to how the cycle of the universe continues.  Of course, I can understand it if it isn't literal, like you say.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Tirian Thorn wrote...

DJBare wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

He is the controller of the Reapers. He initiated the Reaper cycles to stop organics becoming too advanced so that they would not create synthetics which they couldn't control. This is a drastic solution, but one taken nonetheless in response to a big problem. However with the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Catalyst has changed, he no longer sees the Reapers as a viable option. It is part of a new age, along with everyone else. The mistakes of before now do not matter so much, and a new future is being planned

Where is your proof of this?, where is your proof that the catalyst is even real, sorry but "The catalysts says so" is not proof.

That's like confronting a terrorist with a bomb strapped to their chest and they say "you've changed my mind, just hand me the detonator and we can get out of here together."  Are you really going to trust anything that maniac says?  No.  You'll put a bullet in his brain and be done with it. 

Exactly!. Control involves too many unknowns. Dostroy offers the simplest solution; involves casualties for sure, but you can be sure that your enemies are no more (If you take the endings literally).

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

He is the controller of the Reapers. He initiated the Reaper cycles to stop organics becoming too advanced so that they would not create synthetics which they couldn't control. This is a drastic solution, but one taken nonetheless in response to a big problem. However with the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Catalyst has changed, he no longer sees the Reapers as a viable option. It is part of a new age, along with everyone else. The mistakes of before now do not matter so much, and a new future is being planned

It's funny how they want to keep us from getting too advanced yet they leave all this tech around on purpose so that we actually advance faster than we're supposed to huh?

That is because they want to us to develop along the paths they desire. Don't you remember ME1?

[Tirian Thorn]

pirate1802 wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

DJBare wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

He is the controller of the Reapers. He initiated the Reaper cycles to stop organics becoming too advanced so that they would not create synthetics which they couldn't control. This is a drastic solution, but one taken nonetheless in response to a big problem. However with the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Catalyst has changed, he no longer sees the Reapers as a viable option. It is part of a new age, along with everyone else. The mistakes of before now do not matter so much, and a new future is being planned

Where is your proof of this?, where is your proof that the catalyst is even real, sorry but "The catalysts says so" is not proof.

That's like confronting a terrorist with a bomb strapped to their chest and they say "you've changed my mind, just hand me the detonator and we can get out of here together."  Are you really going to trust anything that maniac says?  No.  You'll put a bullet in his brain and be done with it. 

Exactly!. Control involves too many unknowns. Dostroy offers the simplest solution; involves casualties for sure, but you can be sure that your enemies are no more (If you take the endings literally).

Comparison to the Matrix 2:

The architect presents Neo with 2 choices.

1)  Do what he says and the human race will go on.  Most will be slaves of the machines, but a few will rebuild Zion. 

2)  Don't do what he says and the entire human race will die. 

The Star kid presents similar choices

Red)  Destroy.  Sure the reapers will be gone, but so will all synthetics, he suggests that Shepard will die and the maZs relays are destroyed.  Trust me. 

Blue)  Control us.  Oh that guy?  No, he couldn't but I know YOU can Shepard.  Trust me.  We'll do whatever you want.  One catch, you would have to give up your body... 

Green)  Or, you know, we could try this new option that just came to me.  Merge all life (cough forceably) into a hybrid of synthetic and organic.  That'll do the trick.  Then there's no need for the reapers and they'll just fly off to dark space and they won't bother you again.  Trust me. 

[SubAstris]

ExtendedCut wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

*snip

They are going to point to the following:   (again, just my opinion) 

1) Control & Synthesis were ideas put forth by indoctrinated antagonists. (TIM & Saren) Why would you believe they were ever right?

*snip

 

1) I'll just answer the first one. You have to remember that there is a profound difference between events pre and post-Catalyst. Before control is offered as an option controlling the Reapers is not possible without the very real possibility of being controlled by them (as what happened to the Illusive Man). However, by the end, you can actually control the Reapers without any real risk of side-effects (as has been established by the narrative) and so it becomes a much better solution to the problem.

The star kid is an agent of the reapers or controls the reapers. It is still apart of "that system."  There's no way I would trust the star kid.  (my choice.) 

He is the controller of the Reapers. He initiated the Reaper cycles to stop organics becoming too advanced so that they would not create synthetics which they couldn't control. This is a drastic solution, but one taken nonetheless in response to a big problem. However with the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Catalyst has changed, he no longer sees the Reapers as a viable option. It is part of a new age, along with everyone else. The mistakes of before now do not matter so much, and a new future is being planned

So, assuming that Starkid is telling the truth, then are the Reapers just posturing and/or full of sh!t when they tell Shepard that their "motives are beyond our comprehension"?   Because Starkid's actual motive seems simple to the point of amusement.  A drunk monkey could understand Starkid's motive.

In brief, it could be a bit of Reaper bravado. But I think it really is not to do with the fact that we cannot comprehend their motives but rather the scale of destruction the Reapers will wreak and have down over billions of years, is unfathomable to an organic mind

[Tirian Thorn]

SubAstris wrote...

In brief, it could be a bit of Reaper bravado. But I think it really is not to do with the fact that we cannot comprehend their motives but rather the scale of destruction the Reapers will wreak and have down over billions of years, is unfathomable to an organic mind

That part I can agree with.  The number of cultures, civiliations and lives that have been claimed by the reapers is on a scale that our short lives just cannot comprehend.  If the reapers can be believed they have been doing this for millions of years. 

How long did TIM say the derelict reaper had been drifting there? 

It is hard to grasp the magnitude of their genocide.  It is truly a lovecraftian horror.  These monsters exist to wipe out advanced civilzations.  They are without remorse, incredibly powerful and they can bend others to their will.