57139 réponses à ce sujet

[ExtendedCut]

pirate1802 wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

DJBare wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

He is the controller of the Reapers. He initiated the Reaper cycles to stop organics becoming too advanced so that they would not create synthetics which they couldn't control. This is a drastic solution, but one taken nonetheless in response to a big problem. However with the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Catalyst has changed, he no longer sees the Reapers as a viable option. It is part of a new age, along with everyone else. The mistakes of before now do not matter so much, and a new future is being planned

Where is your proof of this?, where is your proof that the catalyst is even real, sorry but "The catalysts says so" is not proof.

That's like confronting a terrorist with a bomb strapped to their chest and they say "you've changed my mind, just hand me the detonator and we can get out of here together."  Are you really going to trust anything that maniac says?  No.  You'll put a bullet in his brain and be done with it. 

Exactly!. Control involves too many unknowns. Dostroy offers the simplest solution; involves casualties for sure, but you can be sure that your enemies are no more (If you take the endings literally).

Agreed.

I still can't figure out what the motivations for Control would be.  Doesn't TIM talk about controlling the Reaper to utilize Reaper tech?  But for what?  The Alliance and turians have already made the Thanix cannons and things like that from DEAD Reapers, so what good does Control do? 

Therefore, I see two problems with Control - if many tech improvements were made from studying dead parts from Sovereign, then why can't they get tech from the dead Reapers after Shep chooses Destroy?  And also, would the technological advances of studying live Reapers (in an already super-techy ME universe) be worth the chance that the Reapers will escape their control and just kill everyone?

[SubAstris]

DJBare wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

He is the controller of the Reapers. He initiated the Reaper cycles to stop organics becoming too advanced so that they would not create synthetics which they couldn't control. This is a drastic solution, but one taken nonetheless in response to a big problem. However with the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Catalyst has changed, he no longer sees the Reapers as a viable option. It is part of a new age, along with everyone else. The mistakes of before now do not matter so much, and a new future is being planned

Where is your proof of this?, where is your proof that the catalyst is even real, sorry but "The catalysts says so" is not proof.

1) He says so
2) You could apply this for a number of scenes in ME, list in any you care to mention, Eden Prime, the Resurrection, Collector Base etc

[paxxton]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

paxxton wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Obitim wrote...

 Seeing as Bioware/EA can collect stats regarding our classes and saves and the like, perhaps there is a masive experiment to see which ending we go for before we know that we can have any further effect on the story?

This is exactly what I thought after I finished the game for the first time and learnt about IT.

It'd be very interesting to get to know those stats.

Then they better not do specific stats for the first ending chosen. About half the people I know just ran straight into green as they didn't see the ramps on the sides the first time (me included).

How could they not see the ramps on the sides? They are better visible than the Synthesis one.

For example I didn't noticed any ramps coming up the first time, then thought I walk a bit and then get some sort of panel, until Shep suddently dropped her gun and ran into the beam
(Instead of shooting the crap out of the glass thingy)

I'd have been pissed if that happened to me.

Oh I was.

Don't get me wrong but maybe you should have your eyesight checked.

Modifié par paxxton, 09 mai 2012 - 01:36 .

[Earthborn_Shepard]

SubAstris wrote...

DJBare wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

He is the controller of the Reapers. He initiated the Reaper cycles to stop organics becoming too advanced so that they would not create synthetics which they couldn't control. This is a drastic solution, but one taken nonetheless in response to a big problem. However with the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Catalyst has changed, he no longer sees the Reapers as a viable option. It is part of a new age, along with everyone else. The mistakes of before now do not matter so much, and a new future is being planned

Where is your proof of this?, where is your proof that the catalyst is even real, sorry but "The catalysts says so" is not proof.

1) He says so

Right, let's all trust the creepy godchild

[Simon_Says]

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

He is the controller of the Reapers. He initiated the Reaper cycles to stop organics becoming too advanced so that they would not create synthetics which they couldn't control. This is a drastic solution, but one taken nonetheless in response to a big problem. However with the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Catalyst has changed, he no longer sees the Reapers as a viable option. It is part of a new age, along with everyone else. The mistakes of before now do not matter so much, and a new future is being planned

It's funny how they want to keep us from getting too advanced yet they leave all this tech around on purpose so that we actually advance faster than we're supposed to huh?

That is because they want to us to develop along the paths they desire. Don't you remember ME1?

For three games the reapers have been the enemy. Now that the crucible is connected, a device with a function we explicitly aren't told, and you're going to take the Catalyst's word at face value? Seriously?

And why do they want us to develop on technological paths that lead to creating synthetic intelligence if synthetic intelligence is a problem?

SubAstris wrote...

DJBare wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

He is the controller of the Reapers.
He initiated the Reaper cycles to stop organics becoming too advanced
so that they would not create synthetics which they couldn't control.
This is a drastic solution, but one taken nonetheless in response to a
big problem. However with the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the
Catalyst has changed, he no longer sees the Reapers as a viable option.
It is part of a new age, along with everyone else. The mistakes of
before now do not matter so much, and a new future is being planned

Where is your proof of this?, where is your proof that the catalyst is even real, sorry but "The catalysts says so" is not proof.

1) He says so
2)
You could apply this for a number of scenes in ME, list in any you care
to mention, Eden Prime, the Resurrection, Collector Base etc

Nevermind, you are a troll. For hundreds upon hundreds of pages you ignore the arguments that have shreded this analysis apart and still you keep going on. There were times when you were lucid and actually presenting your case with some manner of intelligence but this, this. What?!

Modifié par Simon_Says, 08 mai 2012 - 06:55 .

[SubAstris]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

DJBare wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

He is the controller of the Reapers. He initiated the Reaper cycles to stop organics becoming too advanced so that they would not create synthetics which they couldn't control. This is a drastic solution, but one taken nonetheless in response to a big problem. However with the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Catalyst has changed, he no longer sees the Reapers as a viable option. It is part of a new age, along with everyone else. The mistakes of before now do not matter so much, and a new future is being planned

Where is your proof of this?, where is your proof that the catalyst is even real, sorry but "The catalysts says so" is not proof.

1) He says so

Right, let's all trust the creepy godchild

1) We haven't got anything in the narrative that explicitly states that this is impossible, that he can't be the Catalyst. After all, I think Vendetta hints of a pattern behind the Reaper cycles, of something or someone controlling the Reapers

[Thorn Harvestar]

Simon_Says wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

He is the controller of the Reapers. He initiated the Reaper cycles to stop organics becoming too advanced so that they would not create synthetics which they couldn't control. This is a drastic solution, but one taken nonetheless in response to a big problem. However with the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Catalyst has changed, he no longer sees the Reapers as a viable option. It is part of a new age, along with everyone else. The mistakes of before now do not matter so much, and a new future is being planned

It's funny how they want to keep us from getting too advanced yet they leave all this tech around on purpose so that we actually advance faster than we're supposed to huh?

That is because they want to us to develop along the paths they desire. Don't you remember ME1?

For three games the reapers have been the enemy. Now that the crucible is connected, a device with a function we explicitly aren't told, and you're going to take the Catalyst's word at face value? Seriously?

And why do they want us to develop on technological paths that lead to creating synthetic intelligence if synthetic intelligence is a problem?

So they can always claim that their logic is right?

[ExtendedCut]

Tirian Thorn wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

In brief, it could be a bit of Reaper bravado. But I think it really is not to do with the fact that we cannot comprehend their motives but rather the scale of destruction the Reapers will wreak and have down over billions of years, is unfathomable to an organic mind

That part I can agree with.  The number of cultures, civiliations and lives that have been claimed by the reapers is on a scale that our short lives just cannot comprehend.  If the reapers can be believed they have been doing this for millions of years. 

How long did TIM say the derelict reaper had been drifting there? 

It is hard to grasp the magnitude of their genocide.  It is truly a lovecraftian horror.  These monsters exist to wipe out advanced civilzations.  They are without remorse, incredibly powerful and they can bend others to their will. 

I do agree with both of you guys that the "bravado" and/or magnitude of genocide is a legitimate explanation for what is beyond our comprehension. 

However, just IMO, in the story-telling sense from BW's POV, I think that is a cop-out.  I would think that BW is better than that at creating complexity and depth to the story of ME.  If the simple explanation that the Reapers being "beyond our comprehension" is just them trash-talking or boasting about their level of "deadliness", then suddenly the Reapers go from some of the scariest, biggest, most powerful, most deadly, most "godlike" enemies in gaming history to little more than Starkid's henchmen who are just being told to kill stuff (and therefore, from the player's POV, they aren't really awe-inspiring or scary at all anymore), in the space of about 30 seconds at the very end.

I personally have more faith in BW than that.  Again, just IMO.

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

DJBare wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

He is the controller of the Reapers. He initiated the Reaper cycles to stop organics becoming too advanced so that they would not create synthetics which they couldn't control. This is a drastic solution, but one taken nonetheless in response to a big problem. However with the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Catalyst has changed, he no longer sees the Reapers as a viable option. It is part of a new age, along with everyone else. The mistakes of before now do not matter so much, and a new future is being planned

Where is your proof of this?, where is your proof that the catalyst is even real, sorry but "The catalysts says so" is not proof.

1) He says so

Right, let's all trust the creepy godchild

1) We haven't got anything in the narrative that explicitly states that this is impossible, that he can't be the Catalyst. After all, I think Vendetta hints of a pattern behind the Reaper cycles, of something or someone controlling the Reapers

Actually EDI specifically tells you that she has the ability to lie, this either a hint, or nothing. I prefer to think that Bioware has intention behind their decisions.

Modifié par balance5050, 08 mai 2012 - 06:57 .

[SubAstris]

Simon_Says wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

He is the controller of the Reapers. He initiated the Reaper cycles to stop organics becoming too advanced so that they would not create synthetics which they couldn't control. This is a drastic solution, but one taken nonetheless in response to a big problem. However with the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Catalyst has changed, he no longer sees the Reapers as a viable option. It is part of a new age, along with everyone else. The mistakes of before now do not matter so much, and a new future is being planned

It's funny how they want to keep us from getting too advanced yet they leave all this tech around on purpose so that we actually advance faster than we're supposed to huh?

That is because they want to us to develop along the paths they desire. Don't you remember ME1?

For three games the reapers have been the enemy. Now that the crucible is connected, a device with a function we explicitly aren't told, and you're going to take the Catalyst's word at face value? Seriously?

And why do they want us to develop on technological paths that lead to creating synthetic intelligence if synthetic intelligence is a problem?

But you aren't explicitly told that the Catalyst can be wrong either, you are just making suppositions on your initial impressions of the ending. With the endings taken at face-value, we realise the true purpose of the Crucible and what the Catalyst is, which the whole of ME3 has been leading up to.

As for your second question, it would be much easier to destroy organics and prevent them from becoming too advanced if they all operated via one system and did not diversify. They are all at the mercy of Reaper tech.

[jojon2se]

Talk about far-fetched all you want, but I'm kind of wondering if the trilogy has not only not ended, but is still going on right now and here, in the form of something of an alternate reality game.

Lots of speculation from everyone.

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

DJBare wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

He is the controller of the Reapers. He initiated the Reaper cycles to stop organics becoming too advanced so that they would not create synthetics which they couldn't control. This is a drastic solution, but one taken nonetheless in response to a big problem. However with the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Catalyst has changed, he no longer sees the Reapers as a viable option. It is part of a new age, along with everyone else. The mistakes of before now do not matter so much, and a new future is being planned

Where is your proof of this?, where is your proof that the catalyst is even real, sorry but "The catalysts says so" is not proof.

1) He says so

Right, let's all trust the creepy godchild

1) We haven't got anything in the narrative that explicitly states that this is impossible, that he can't be the Catalyst. After all, I think Vendetta hints of a pattern behind the Reaper cycles, of something or someone controlling the Reapers

Actually EDI specifically tells you that she has the ability to lie, this either a hint, or nothing. I prefer to think that Bioware has intention behind their decisions.

Yeah, I don't deny that the Catalyst can lie I'm questioning whether he actually does. The EDI thing IMO is an attempt to create her into a more human, lifelike character

[NeoDobby]

SubAstris wrote...

DJBare wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

He is the controller of the Reapers. He initiated the Reaper cycles to stop organics becoming too advanced so that they would not create synthetics which they couldn't control. This is a drastic solution, but one taken nonetheless in response to a big problem. However with the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Catalyst has changed, he no longer sees the Reapers as a viable option. It is part of a new age, along with everyone else. The mistakes of before now do not matter so much, and a new future is being planned

Where is your proof of this?, where is your proof that the catalyst is even real, sorry but "The catalysts says so" is not proof.

1) He says so
2) You could apply this for a number of scenes in ME, list in any you care to mention, Eden Prime, the Resurrection, Collector Base etc

I don't know what exactly you mean in the scenes of Eden Prime and the Collector Base, but about the Resurrection: I know that this involves an amount of space magic comparable to the Synthesis ending taken at face value, but the video logs on the Cerberus Base at least give explanation so that it involve a tolerable amount of suspension of disbelief to make it plausible. There is no such thing for the credibility of starchild.

Could you explain what you think with Eden Prime and the Collector Base so we can discuss it?

[SubAstris]

ExtendedCut wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

In brief, it could be a bit of Reaper bravado. But I think it really is not to do with the fact that we cannot comprehend their motives but rather the scale of destruction the Reapers will wreak and have down over billions of years, is unfathomable to an organic mind

That part I can agree with.  The number of cultures, civiliations and lives that have been claimed by the reapers is on a scale that our short lives just cannot comprehend.  If the reapers can be believed they have been doing this for millions of years. 

How long did TIM say the derelict reaper had been drifting there? 

It is hard to grasp the magnitude of their genocide.  It is truly a lovecraftian horror.  These monsters exist to wipe out advanced civilzations.  They are without remorse, incredibly powerful and they can bend others to their will. 

I do agree with both of you guys that the "bravado" and/or magnitude of genocide is a legitimate explanation for what is beyond our comprehension. 

However, just IMO, in the story-telling sense from BW's POV, I think that is a cop-out.  I would think that BW is better than that at creating complexity and depth to the story of ME.  If the simple explanation that the Reapers being "beyond our comprehension" is just them trash-talking or boasting about their level of "deadliness", then suddenly the Reapers go from some of the scariest, biggest, most powerful, most deadly, most "godlike" enemies in gaming history to little more than Starkid's henchmen who are just being told to kill stuff (and therefore, from the player's POV, they aren't really awe-inspiring or scary at all anymore), in the space of about 30 seconds at the very end.

I personally have more faith in BW than that.  Again, just IMO.

It depends what you want. Some people would not have wanted the Reapers' motives revealed because it was not needed. Meanwhile I prefer to understand the motives of my villains so I can understand them on a psychological level, and I personally think that creates a more interesting story. To have them do things because they do can make the character uninteresting IMO

[balance5050]

LOL! Again.

How can the Catalyst claim that he wants to prune organics so that we don't create synthetics if the tech they left for us is conducive to creating synthetics?

Also, it's impossible for a synthetics to kill off all organics, only 1% of the Mass Effect galaxy has been discovered and there are countless civilizations and species yet to be discovered (even on earth)

In the time it would take to purge organics from one corner of the Galaxy, more will spring up in another.

The catalysts entire argument is hypocrisy built on lies.

[IronSabbath88]

I usually try to keep to myself when trolls are around because there's really no stopping them and feeding them just makes things worse.

But really SubAstris, why are you STILL here posting? If you hate this goddamn theory so much then why do you continue to post about it?

Sorry we do not share the same opinion. Let's leave it at that. We do not need people like you in here constantly belittling us for having a difference of opinion. It's time to man up and just walk away. Let it be. Seriously.

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

It depends what you want. Some people would not have wanted the Reapers' motives revealed because it was not needed. Meanwhile I prefer to understand the motives of my villains so I can understand them on a psychological level, and I personally think that creates a more interesting story. To have them do things because they do can make the character uninteresting IMO

Hehhh heehhh hehhh! Even Casey Hudson said that he wanted to leave the Reapers purpose shrouded in mystery 

[SubAstris]

NeoDobby wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

DJBare wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

He is the controller of the Reapers. He initiated the Reaper cycles to stop organics becoming too advanced so that they would not create synthetics which they couldn't control. This is a drastic solution, but one taken nonetheless in response to a big problem. However with the arrival of Shepard and the Crucible, the Catalyst has changed, he no longer sees the Reapers as a viable option. It is part of a new age, along with everyone else. The mistakes of before now do not matter so much, and a new future is being planned

Where is your proof of this?, where is your proof that the catalyst is even real, sorry but "The catalysts says so" is not proof.

1) He says so
2) You could apply this for a number of scenes in ME, list in any you care to mention, Eden Prime, the Resurrection, Collector Base etc

I don't know what exactly you mean in the scenes of Eden Prime and the Collector Base, but about the Resurrection: I know that this involves an amount of space magic comparable to the Synthesis ending taken at face value, but the video logs on the Cerberus Base at least give explanation so that it involve a tolerable amount of suspension of disbelief to make it plausible. There is no such thing for the credibility of starchild.

Could you explain what you think with Eden Prime and the Collector Base so we can discuss it?

I wasn't picking them out specifically, I was just picking out a variety of scenes which in terms of the ME universe you can't "prove" happened. It is very likely that they did in fact happen though, although some people apply skepticism to the validity of the ending it seems because of dislike of the ending and not any credible reason.

I kinda agree with you about the Resurrection, however you can understand why BW didn't give even a little explanation of how synthesis works. I think a pop-up that explains in pseudo-scientific terms how it works when the Catalyst is revealing Synthesis to you would be crude and would slacken a lot of tension at the ending

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

It depends what you want. Some people would not have wanted the Reapers' motives revealed because it was not needed. Meanwhile I prefer to understand the motives of my villains so I can understand them on a psychological level, and I personally think that creates a more interesting story. To have them do things because they do can make the character uninteresting IMO

Hehhh heehhh hehhh! Even Casey Hudson said that he wanted to leave the Reapers purpose shrouded in mystery 

CH promises a lot of things...When exactly and where did he say this though?

[balance5050]

Seriously guys SubAstris is in love with us. Why else would he always say stupid things when he's around us?

LOL!

[NeoDobby]

RedDeadRemix wrote...

K, people who say Shepard commits genocide by choosing destroy:
"I know you've thought about destroying us. You can wipe out all synthetics IF you want. Including, the Geth. Even you are partly synthetic."
These statements are not in the same context. The Catalyst knows you can destroy him, so he is willing to manipulate your POV to save his race. Therefore, if he can convince you that wiping out the Reapers is equivalent to wiping out the Geth, he can sway your judgement. If he can convince the Commander that all synthetic life is, erroneously, the same, he can convince you to save the Reapers, and even sympathize with them. He doesn't say the Geth will die. He doesn't say you will die. All he needs is for you to accept his twisted logic. Shepard doesn't commit genocide, and synthesis is a false promise. Destroy is the only option.

I also noticed the "IF" in the quote, and wondered why it is formulated like that. Considering the syntax of the quote, it sounds like "This option gives you the power to destroy the reapers. And if you want, you can destroy the rest of the synthetic life with it". This wouldn't be the intented meaning of the starchild, but it sounds like it.

[Simon_Says]

SubAstris wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

For three games the reapers have been the enemy. Now that the crucible is connected, a device with a function we explicitly aren't told, and you're going to take the Catalyst's word at face value? Seriously?

And why do they want us to develop on technological paths that lead to creating synthetic intelligence if synthetic intelligence is a problem?

But you aren't explicitly told that the Catalyst can be wrong either, you are just making suppositions on your initial impressions of the ending. With the endings taken at face-value, we realise the true purpose of the Crucible and what the Catalyst is, which the whole of ME3 has been leading up to.

As for your second question, it would be much easier to destroy organics and prevent them from becoming too advanced if they all operated via one system and did not diversify. They are all at the mercy of Reaper tech.

My God. I seriously hope you aren't in charge of anything important. The Catalyst is associated with the reapers. Ergo it was the enemy, real or not. Yes it's possible that the crucible gave it a change of heart but to actually act on this small hope or to take it seriously is... stupid and suicidal.

And we know the Catalyst is wrong, simply because of EDI and the Geth. Synthetics who are perfectly willing to coexist with organics.

And yes, it's obvious they left the mass relay network to make the job of exterminating civilizations more efficient. That much was already obvious. But you still haven't answered my question: the tech they left lead numerous races to developing synthetic intelligence. It's like spiking a person's drink with anthrax and then executing the person so that their disease doesn't spread to other people. It's stupid.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 08 mai 2012 - 07:11 .

[SS2Dante]

balance5050 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

What I find interesting about this is the line about the end of the first Matrix.  'Cause I've seen the first Matrix, and the ending there is not like the ending of ME3 at all, if you ask me.  I would actually compare it to the end of the Matrix Revolutions, based on what I've seen of it.

End of first Matrix


I can see the similarites, Shepard was supposed to die, but he didnt and he now sees the world "the way it really is". It's clear if we assume that we are going to "really" beat the reaper after the Shepard Alive scene.

Two possibilities. A major debate about the end of the first Matrix was "Did they ACTUALLY get out of the Matrix?"*. Surely this is what they meant, assuming IT. Of course, the end of the first film also had a Brave New World touch about it, but then they're just repeating themselves by saying Brave New World an Matrix.

Like everything else, it cuts both ways

*See also that TNG episode where they finally deal with the Moriarty program once and for all. Ending of Inception was similar but they deliberately drew attention to it.

Modifié par SS2Dante, 08 mai 2012 - 07:12 .

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

LOL! Again.

How can the Catalyst claim that he wants to prune organics so that we don't create synthetics if the tech they left for us is conducive to creating synthetics?

Also, it's impossible for a synthetics to kill off all organics, only 1% of the Mass Effect galaxy has been discovered and there are countless civilizations and species yet to be discovered (even on earth)

In the time it would take to purge organics from one corner of the Galaxy, more will spring up in another.

The catalysts entire argument is hypocrisy built on lies.

The idea behind the Catalyst's thinking is that the benefit of making sure organics develop along Reaper lines outweighs their ability to create synthetics. After all, if it takes organics less time to make synthetics by using the Mass Relays and Citadel, then Reapers just return to the galaxy a little bit before they would without them. However, if Synthetics do develop without those Reaper failsafe mechanisms, then it would be harder to control them and they (the synthetics) would be more likely to destroy all of organic life

As for killing of all organics, I think BW were going along the lines of Grey Goo theory, end-of-world scenarios where synthetics devour all organic life in their path. Over a long enough amount of time, synthetics would be able to colonise everywhere and kill everything