57139 réponses à ce sujet

[balance5050]

SubAstris wrote...

Catalyst could technically still be right (he hasn't been proved wrong, his premises are questionable though)

He hasn't been proved right either, organics still exist and synthetics seem just as capable of peace as we do, possibly more.

You'd think that since he is manipulating the way you see him he could show you some visions to illustrate his point, or at least provide a single example.

[SubAstris]

Big Bad wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

For three games the reapers have been the enemy. Now that the crucible is connected, a device with a function we explicitly aren't told, and you're going to take the Catalyst's word at face value? Seriously?

And why do they want us to develop on technological paths that lead to creating synthetic intelligence if synthetic intelligence is a problem?

But you aren't explicitly told that the Catalyst can be wrong either, you are just making suppositions on your initial impressions of the ending. With the endings taken at face-value, we realise the true purpose of the Crucible and what the Catalyst is, which the whole of ME3 has been leading up to.

As for your second question, it would be much easier to destroy organics and prevent them from becoming too advanced if they all operated via one system and did not diversify. They are all at the mercy of Reaper tech.

My God. I seriously hope you aren't in charge of anything important. The Catalyst is associated with the reapers. Ergo it was the enemy, real or not. Yes it's possible that the crucible gave it a change of heart but to actually act on this small hope or to take it seriously is... stupid and suicidal.

And we know the Catalyst is wrong, simply because of EDI and the Geth. Synthetics who are perfectly willing to coexist with organics.

And yes, it's obvious they left the mass relay network to make the job of exterminating civilizations more efficient. That much was already obvious. But you still haven't answered my question: the tech they left lead numerous races to developing synthetic intelligence. It's like spiking a person's drink with anthrax and then executing the person so that their disease doesn't spread to other people. It's stupid.

It has changed, and you don't just have to take its word for it, but look at the outcome of the decisions. In destroy, the Reapers do get destroyed, in synthesis, there is a physical merging of synthetic and organic DNA as shown by painted circuitry. In this respect the Catalyst kept his promises and delivered.

From evidence given to us in the ME universe, yes, the Catalyst seems wrong, at least in this cycle, EDI and the Geth can survive peacefully with organics, which is why I think the ending in this case did seem disjointed and not well done. BW tried to incorporate a common sci-fi cliche of a war between synthetics and organics into a game which didn't fit that. However, it is possible in other cycles that other synthetics would not be so peaceful; remember it only takes one rogue group of synthetics to destroy all life in the galaxy. Admittedly, this wasn't explained well in the game.

I think I answered someone else on the cost-benefits of what the Catalyst did

Wait, so you think that the writers go out of their way to contradict one of the major themes of the series (that it is not inevitable for organics and synthetics to be in conflict) in the last five minutes of the game, and that this was done on accident?

It is badly done, I agree wholeheartedly. However, I can see where BW were going with it. They wanted a spectacular ending to the series which would make people think, and that is what introducing the Catalyst did and does. I don't think the contradiction was done purposefully, and the Catalyst could technically still be right (he hasn't been proved wrong, his premises are questionable though)

I guess that we just have fundamentally incompatible views of the series, as I think that it is virtually impossible for the multiple serious thematic contradictions in the ending to have been anything but intentional.

They can be badly thought out and contradictory.

[Rifneno]

Sorry for the wall of text.

[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...

[quote]Rifneno wrote...

[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...

Don't make me get out my theory on the Reaper's creation and their motivations again... I'm sick of getting in debates with Rifneno about his "Harbinger is the Prothean Reaper" theory.[/quote]

And by "debates" you mean "replying 'nah' one time after reading approx. 0.5% of the post" right?
[/quote]

Oh don't give me that, I read the damn post, but the fact is you only have a bit of conjecture and some VERY circumstantial evidence to back it up, you have no more to prove your point than I have with which to disprove you.There isn't enough solid evidence either way. So let's agree to disagree and we can stop fighting about it, and you can stop flogging it. Deal?
[/quote]

Which is different than your Reaper origins theory that you've been bringing up longer and even sig'd. Somehow.

[quote]Obitim wrote...

Seeing as Bioware/EA can collect stats regarding our classes and saves and the like, perhaps there is a masive experiment to see which ending we go for before we know that we can have any further effect on the story?[/quote]

Possible. Maybe that's also why the soldier class blows now. Their data from ME2 said about 95% played soldier.

[quote]RealStyli wrote...

Regarding TIM's eyes, according to "The Art of the Mass Effect Universe" book:

[quote]"A lot of attention was paid to the implants in his eyes, the intent being to give him a subtly inhuman look"[/quote]

I was also of the belief that he was indoctrinated via exposure to the Reaper artifact in ME:Evolution but this quote from the book would indicate that it was an augmentation. Then again, that quote appears in the Mass Effect 2 section of the book so it may have been intended originally as an implant during the concept stage for TIM but, after Evolution, retroactively explained with indoctrination.
[/quote]

It's a Reaper implant. Reaper tech isn't magic, they use technology to change things too. Their ways are just far more advanced.

[quote]ExtendedCut wrote...

I ran straight the green on my first try because, like the idiot that I am, I read a spoiler blog from some moron that tried to say that Synthesis was the best option.[/quote]

I ran into green too, but it wasn't on purpose. Right after starbrat I felt as if someone had managed to weaponize stupidity and they had blown up a thermonuclear-sized bomb of it in my face. I was dazed and incoherent as one might expect. I stumbled around blindly hoping to find something that didn't radiate idiocy. I did not find such a thing.

[quote]EpyonX3 wrote...

Technically, there are not ME characters that have bullet wounds. Except for Legion of course. We don't actually see a wound for Shepard, just his armor and an arm covered in blood.[/quote]

**** I miss Legion. Not enough Legion is this game's biggest failing (right behind the ending if literalits are right, of course).

I remember just being so enthralled by him when I first met him. To think that the geth weren't bad and the ones we dealt with were a fringe faction... and then every conversation about geth society was just so interesting. The way they think and work is so different. They were the first alien race that truly felt alien.

[quote]DJBare wrote...

Where is your proof of this?, where is your proof that the catalyst is even real, sorry but "The catalysts says so" is not proof.[/quote]

You're being too hard on him. It's not like the catalyst being as he claims to be would render the entire first game completely pointless and even nonsensical.

Oh wait...

[quote]Tirian Thorn wrote...

That part I can agree with. The number of cultures, civiliations and lives that have been claimed by the reapers is on a scale that our short lives just cannot comprehend. If the reapers can be believed they have been doing this for millions of years.

How long did TIM say the derelict reaper had been drifting there?

It is hard to grasp the magnitude of their genocide. It is truly a lovecraftian horror. These monsters exist to wipe out advanced civilzations. They are without remorse, incredibly powerful and they can bend others to their will. [/quote]

The derelict Reaper was 37 million years old. The Leviathan of Dis, verified by Balak to be a Reaper corpse, was dated at "nearly a billion". Yeah, the sheer scale of their crimes is simply beyond our understanding. Remember that saying, "one death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic"? The amount of people our brain can comprehend as people at a given time is actually very small. Around 100 I think. Any more than that, we understand that it's just terrible but we don't truly grasp the scale of it. I'm not blowing smoke out my ass either, I read this as the result of a pretty in-depth study. Shame I can't remember what it was called to link it.
But yeah, with even many modern tragedies simply being beyond us, the scale of the Reaper's horror and madness is to us what the intricate workings of a nuclear power plant would be to a goldfish.

Ironically what bothers me most is that it applies to all numbers after a while. Astronomy is infamous for it. There's over a hundred billion stars in the Milky Way. We can't really understand that. We understand it's a crapload, but the difference between a hundred billion and fifty million is pretty small to our minds even though it's actually colossal. Shame. Astronomy is so interesting, I wish I could appreciate it as it truly deserves.

[quote]ExtendedCut wrote...

However, just IMO, in the story-telling sense from BW's POV, I think that is a cop-out. I would think that BW is better than that at creating complexity and depth to the story of ME. If the simple explanation that the Reapers being "beyond our comprehension" is just them trash-talking or boasting about their level of "deadliness", then suddenly the Reapers go from some of the scariest, biggest, most powerful, most deadly, most "godlike" enemies in gaming history to little more than Starkid's henchmen who are just being told to kill stuff (and therefore, from the player's POV, they aren't really awe-inspiring or scary at all anymore), in the space of about 30 seconds at the very end.[/quote]

I agree with this also. From a story-telling perspective, I want an explanation for what's going on.

[quote]balance5050 wrote...

Actually EDI specifically tells you that she has the ability to lie, this either a hint, or nothing. I prefer to think that Bioware has intention behind their decisions.[/quote]

Best example is when the geth accidentally started a religious flame war on the extranet by claiming a cluster of stars, viewed from Khar'Shan, formed the face of a salarian goddess. "Without waiting for verification, some proclaimed it proof of the goddess' existence. Those who noted the lack of proof were attacked. The arguments taught us much." Damnit Legion, you're adorable even when you're trolling! WANT MORE LEGION!

[quote]balance5050 wrote...

Seriously guys SubAstris is in love with us. Why else would he always say stupid things when he's around us?

LOL![/quote]

The same way Harbinger is in love with Shepard?

[SubAstris]

balance5050 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Catalyst could technically still be right (he hasn't been proved wrong, his premises are questionable though)

He hasn't been proved right either, organics still exist and synthetics seem just as capable of peace as we do, possibly more.

You'd think that since he is manipulating the way you see him he could show you some visions to illustrate his point, or at least provide a single example.

That's what you get when you introduce a character last minute, I can't comment on BW's creative decisions

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

LOL! Again.

How can the Catalyst claim that he wants to prune organics so that we don't create synthetics if the tech they left for us is conducive to creating synthetics?

Also, it's impossible for a synthetics to kill off all organics, only 1% of the Mass Effect galaxy has been discovered and there are countless civilizations and species yet to be discovered (even on earth)

In the time it would take to purge organics from one corner of the Galaxy, more will spring up in another.

The catalysts entire argument is hypocrisy built on lies.

I'll take a crack at this but I'll be clear that this is mmy opinion and is not meant to prove nor disprove IT.

They leave the technology behind for two reasons. One, because they need the relays themselves to be able to move around and take out organics. Two, the relays and citadel being around is a test. If you're civilization is intelligent enough to find, use and reverse engineer reaper tech, then they're capable of creating AI's and synthetic life.

Humanity was around, aparrantly, the last time the reapers were here. They left us alone because we weren't smart enough to kill ourselves. With this idea laid out, you can then conclude that we gain enough competency to kill ourselves before the reapers' tech influences it.

[SubAstris]

Rifneno wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Where is your proof of this?, where is your proof that the catalyst is even real, sorry but "The catalysts says so" is not proof.

You're being too hard on him. It's not like the catalyst being as he claims to be would render the entire first game completely pointless and even nonsensical.

Oh wait...

You are making assumptions about the extent of the Catalyst'sabilities which cannot unfortunately be substantiated by anything in game

[Aanlen]

........Is there anyone else than me that are starting to hate volus with a burning passion?

[balance5050]

Aanlen wrote...

........Is there anyone else than me that are starting to hate volus with a burning passion?

Us turians don't have much patience....

Modifié par balance5050, 08 mai 2012 - 08:03 .

[estebanus]

balance5050 wrote...

 A very telling tweet from Michel Gamble comparing this debate with another well known debate in sci-fi history.
https://twitter.com/...377974838956032

Huh. Well, that's interesting! Could mean nothing, i guess...

[Boradam]

Aanlen wrote...

........Is there anyone else than me that are starting to hate volus with a burning passion?

You... you hate me?

[Simon_Says]

SubAstris wrote...

It has changed, and you don't just have to take its word for it, but look at the outcome of the decisions. In destroy, the Reapers do get destroyed, in synthesis, there is a physical merging of synthetic and organic DNA as shown by painted circuitry. In this respect the Catalyst kept his promises and delivered.

From evidence given to us in the ME universe, yes, the Catalyst seems wrong, at least in this cycle, EDI and the Geth can survive peacefully with organics, which is why I think the ending in this case did seem disjointed and not well done. BW tried to incorporate a common sci-fi cliche of a war between synthetics and organics into a game which didn't fit that. However, it is possible in other cycles that other synthetics would not be so peaceful; remember it only takes one rogue group of synthetics to destroy all life in the galaxy. Admittedly, this wasn't explained well in the game.

I think I answered someone else on the cost-benefits of what the Catalyst did

You're so intent on wanting to trust or agree with the Catalyst that you're not stopping to think whether you should.

Here's a fun exercise: come up with as many ideas as possible how the Catalyst could have pulled a monkey-paw on Shepard. Here's a couple of mine:
Synthesis: Everyone, everywhere is now completely indoctrinated by reaper nanotechnology.
Control: Shepard's mind has been uploaded. It becomes indoctrinated because reaper tech does that naturally without conscious effort, according to the team aboard the Derelict Reaper.
Destroy: We already know one: The reapers are destroyed, but so is everything else. Except for the garden world, oddly enough.

[estebanus]

Aanlen wrote...

........Is there anyone else than me that are starting to hate volus with a burning passion?

Dafuq? Why?! Because of Subastris?

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

LOL! Again.

How can the Catalyst claim that he wants to prune organics so that we don't create synthetics if the tech they left for us is conducive to creating synthetics?

Also, it's impossible for a synthetics to kill off all organics, only 1% of the Mass Effect galaxy has been discovered and there are countless civilizations and species yet to be discovered (even on earth)

In the time it would take to purge organics from one corner of the Galaxy, more will spring up in another.

The catalysts entire argument is hypocrisy built on lies.

I'll take a crack at this but I'll be clear that this is mmy opinion and is not meant to prove nor disprove IT.

They leave the technology behind for two reasons. One, because they need the relays themselves to be able to move around and take out organics. Two, the relays and citadel being around is a test. If you're civilization is intelligent enough to find, use and reverse engineer reaper tech, then they're capable of creating AI's and synthetic life.

Humanity was around, aparrantly, the last time the reapers were here. They left us alone because we weren't smart enough to kill ourselves. With this idea laid out, you can then conclude that we gain enough competency to kill ourselves before the reapers' tech influences it.

One thing I would add is that the relays were left for us and not just the reapers. Otherwise they would all be like the Omega relay and require an IFF.

It's still kinda wonky to...

It's like if someone leaves a bunch of tools around so you can build a power tool, but then that someone who purposefully left the tools there comes and scolds you on the off chance that the powertool will hurt you.

Modifié par balance5050, 08 mai 2012 - 08:12 .

[paxxton]

estebanus wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

 A very telling tweet from Michel Gamble comparing this debate with another well known debate in sci-fi history.
https://twitter.com/...377974838956032

Huh. Well, that's interesting! Could mean nothing, i guess...

They don't expect us to wait for decades for the IT confirmation, do they?

[llbountyhunter]

estebanus wrote...

Aanlen wrote...

........Is there anyone else than me that are starting to hate volus with a burning passion?

Dafuq? Why?! Because of Subastris?

Actually the majority of the trolls on this thread have had there image as volus. There is only one (very recent) who is not a troll

[balance5050]

estebanus wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

 A very telling tweet from Michel Gamble comparing this debate with another well known debate in sci-fi history.
https://twitter.com/...377974838956032

Huh. Well, that's interesting! Could mean nothing, i guess...

To me it means that there is a reveal in store, I just hope it doesn't take 20 years like it did with Blade Runner.

[Boradam]

Has the guy who said his friend only got Control post the video/screenshots yet? I've been waiting intently for quite some time now.

[ExtendedCut]

Rifneno wrote...



I ran into green too, but it wasn't on purpose. Right after starbrat I felt as if someone had managed to weaponize stupidity and they had blown up a thermonuclear-sized bomb of it in my face. I was dazed and incoherent as one might expect. I stumbled around blindly hoping to find something that didn't radiate idiocy. I did not find such a thing.

Just wanted to quote this because I thought it was hilarious.

[balance5050]

Boradam wrote...

Has the guy who said his friend only got Control post the video/screenshots yet? I've been waiting intently for quite some time now.

I'm waiting on this too... I'm also still waiting to see EDI in the Destroy ending, I don't think we will get either though.

[dreamgazer]

balance5050 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

 A very telling tweet from Michel Gamble comparing this debate with another well known debate in sci-fi history.
https://twitter.com/...377974838956032

Huh. Well, that's interesting! Could mean nothing, i guess...

To me it means that there is a reveal in store, I just hope it doesn't take 20 years like it did with Blade Runner.

Yikes.  I just used that exact same example the other day in regards to interpretation in science-fiction narratives, about an idea that involves intuitive evidence without direct confirmation.  Somewhere on the board, don't remember where.

Ah, here: Indoctrination Theory Debunked. 

Obviously I'm biased, but I think there might be a bit more behind his statement than a throwaway analogy.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 08 mai 2012 - 08:20 .

[TSA_383]

balance5050 wrote...

Boradam wrote...

Has the guy who said his friend only got Control post the video/screenshots yet? I've been waiting intently for quite some time now.

I'm waiting on this too... I'm also still waiting to see EDI in the Destroy ending, I don't think we will get either though.

I got edi on the destroy ending on my first playthrough - to be fair I had crap-all tech powers & brought her on practically every mission, also always checked on her and joker between missions so I probably had more interaction with them than my other squadmates.

By the by - shameless thread promotion:
http://social.biowar.../index/11939824
Help me work out what the child if there's anything particularly leading in the dream dialog

Modifié par TSA_383, 08 mai 2012 - 08:23 .

[Boradam]

balance5050 wrote...

Boradam wrote...

Has the guy who said his friend only got Control post the video/screenshots yet? I've been waiting intently for quite some time now.

I'm waiting on this too... I'm also still waiting to see EDI in the Destroy ending, I don't think we will get either though.

I'm running a new Mass Effect playthrough (throughout the entire series, save for Pinnacle Station as I never bought that) so when I get to London in ME3 I'm going to use EDI as a companion and see if she ends up on Destroy; if so I'll take a pic.

[balance5050]

TSA_383 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Boradam wrote...

Has the guy who said his friend only got Control post the video/screenshots yet? I've been waiting intently for quite some time now.

I'm waiting on this too... I'm also still waiting to see EDI in the Destroy ending, I don't think we will get either though.

I got edi on the destroy ending on my first playthrough - to be fair I had crap-all tech powers & brought her on practically every mission, also always checked on her and joker between missions so I probably had more interaction with them than my other squadmates.

By the by - shameless thread promotion:
http://social.biowar.../index/11939824
Help me work out what the child if there's anything particularly leading in the dream dialog

You should have recorded it, people need to see it man.

[ExtendedCut]

balance5050 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

 A very telling tweet from Michel Gamble comparing this debate with another well known debate in sci-fi history.
https://twitter.com/...377974838956032

Huh. Well, that's interesting! Could mean nothing, i guess...

To me it means that there is a reveal in store, I just hope it doesn't take 20 years like it did with Blade Runner.

Maybe Gamble means that we will have to wait until 2185 when the Reapers actually invade to find out...

[llbountyhunter]

ExtendedCut wrote...

Rifneno wrote...



I ran into green too, but it wasn't on purpose. Right after starbrat I felt as if someone had managed to weaponize stupidity and they had blown up a thermonuclear-sized bomb of it in my face. I was dazed and incoherent as one might expect. I stumbled around blindly hoping to find something that didn't radiate idiocy. I did not find such a thing.

Just wanted to quote this because I thought it was hilarious.

Hey at least after you blindly ran into green, You couldve quickly gone back to try one of the other wildly different and considerably more satisfying endings.

Oh wait.