57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Destructorlio]

BP20125810 wrote...

I beleived in IT at first, but, the facts (real world facts) just don't hold up for me. If Bioware had thought of an idea THAT cool, it would have been in the final game. They would've delayed it just to get it in.

Oh! Good point. Indoctrination theory disproved! Pack up the thread everyone, we can all go home!

1. They did think of the idea. This is well documented in the 'Last Hours of ME3' app.
2. The whole point of IT is that the end of ME3 leaves you wondering. If they'd put it into the game, you wouldn't wonder- you'd know. Thus robbing the point.
3. They did delay the game- they asked EA for a six month extension. EA gave them three months. The DLC will be available in three months. You do the math.
3. What 'real world facts' are you referring to? 

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Arian Dynas wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

*sigh* Rebar,

Arian don't suppose you saved my rebar reaper cable post? Can you do me a favor and repost it? I'm in the middle of a tor operation can't find it don't have time to repost.

Oh Idk, it seems pretty plausible to me that it's rebar. [Trollface]

*still in the middle of some operations*

To be continued.

[Afalstein]

So new question. Watching AngryJoe's breakdown of the IT theory (which he supports) he listed a few counterarguments, and one to me appears particularly interesting. Apparently you don't get the other two options (control and synthesis) unless you have high EMS points. Destroy is ALWAYS an option, but the other two only appear if you've worked hard at it.

Why is that? I didn't know this fact before, and it intrigues me for a number of reasons, not just because of the IT complications. But I am interested to hear the IT take on it. Why is the "right" choice the easiest one to get, and why are the wrong ones only available if you earn them?

[balance5050]

Afalstein wrote...

So new question. Watching AngryJoe's breakdown of the IT theory (which he supports) he listed a few counterarguments, and one to me appears particularly interesting. Apparently you don't get the other two options (control and synthesis) unless you have high EMS points. Destroy is ALWAYS an option, but the other two only appear if you've worked hard at it.

Why is that? I didn't know this fact before, and it intrigues me for a number of reasons, not just because of the IT complications. But I am interested to hear the IT take on it. Why is the "right" choice the easiest one to get, and why are the wrong ones only available if you earn them?

First of all, I thought control could be the only option if you decide to spare the collector base.

Secondly, your EMS represents the size of the army you have gathered as well as your determination to defeat the reapers, So if you have amassed a huge fleet, that would be more of a reason for the reapers to indoctrinate Shepard, if your EMS is to low, the reapers have no need for you, and you just die back on Earth or something because your EMS was too low to provide adequate cover.

That's my take atleast.

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Working on counter-proof of that Alfalstein, friend of mine said he only got Control and synthesis in default male shepard run, anderson dead, high EMS and readiness rating. Working on getting screens from him but we've both been busy with work/other games. Thinking of making adefault male shep to run through myself but i hate default history comapred to my custom history.

[Emperor_Ike]

Afalstein wrote...

So new question. Watching AngryJoe's breakdown of the IT theory (which he supports) he listed a few counterarguments, and one to me appears particularly interesting. Apparently you don't get the other two options (control and synthesis) unless you have high EMS points. Destroy is ALWAYS an option, but the other two only appear if you've worked hard at it.

Why is that? I didn't know this fact before, and it intrigues me for a number of reasons, not just because of the IT complications. But I am interested to hear the IT take on it. Why is the "right" choice the easiest one to get, and why are the wrong ones only available if you earn them?

The option you get with low EMS is decided by which option you went with at the end of ME2 concerning the Collector base. Destroyed the base + low EMS = Destroy as only option. Bombed the base to save it for use by Cerberus + low EMS = Control as only option.

The best part is that destroying the Collector base was paragon, and ME3's Destroy choice is painted red, whereas saving the base was renegade and Control is painted blue. Speculation!

[Afalstein]

balance5050 wrote...

First of all, I thought control could be the only option if you decide to spare the collector base.

You are correct.  I was unaware of this wrinkle when I posted, I just watched the video and saw that caveat in the credits.  That's also interesting, but it still leaves the question of why synthesis is only available with a high EMS rating.

Secondly, your EMS represents the size of the army you have gathered as well as your determination to defeat the reapers, So if you have amassed a huge fleet, that would be more of a reason for the reapers to indoctrinate Shepard, if your EMS is to low, the reapers have no need for you, and you just die back on Earth or something because your EMS was too low to provide adequate cover.

That's my take atleast.

Except that completely leaves out the gameplay question involved here.  Why would the 'bonus content' unlocked by actually taking time to amass a full force lead only to a wrong choice?  It would be like Bioware WANTED the player not to actually unite the galaxy.

Anyway, in terms of story, this doesn't work if you have a low EMS and spared the collector base, thus getting the control ending only.  Why does that preclude you from escaping indoctrination?  Why would that suddenly make you more valuable to indoctrinate?

And if your only choice is destroy... well, why send you into the hallucination in the first place?  Why have the whole "internal struggle" between TIM and Anderson?  What would be the point of hallucinating something where the only option is to wake up?

[XXIceColdXX]

Jessica Merizan tweeted earlier , the ending is not changing or an addition, just more to visually process.

I'm a fan of IT but tweets like this don't give me hope. Any opinions?

Sorry no link to URL , on mobile phone.

Modifié par XXIceColdXX, 09 mai 2012 - 05:46 .

[Makrys]

XXIceColdXX wrote...

Jessica Merizan tweeted earlier , the ending is not changing, just more to visually process.

I'm a fan of IT but tweets like this don't give me hope. Any opinions?

Sorry no link to URL , on mobile phone.

Nothing they say matters at this point. Its all PR BS. Why do you think they would elude to their plans? They're not going to spill any secrets. Just be patient and wait. Nothing they say now really means a thing.

[balance5050]

Afalstein wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

First of all, I thought control could be the only option if you decide to spare the collector base.

You are correct.  I was unaware of this wrinkle when I posted, I just watched the video and saw that caveat in the credits.  That's also interesting, but it still leaves the question of why synthesis is only available with a high EMS rating.

Secondly, your EMS represents the size of the army you have gathered as well as your determination to defeat the reapers, So if you have amassed a huge fleet, that would be more of a reason for the reapers to indoctrinate Shepard, if your EMS is to low, the reapers have no need for you, and you just die back on Earth or something because your EMS was too low to provide adequate cover.

That's my take atleast.

Except that completely leaves out the gameplay question involved here.  Why would the 'bonus content' unlocked by actually taking time to amass a full force lead only to a wrong choice?  It would be like Bioware WANTED the player not to actually unite the galaxy.

Anyway, in terms of story, this doesn't work if you have a low EMS and spared the collector base, thus getting the control ending only.  Why does that preclude you from escaping indoctrination?  Why would that suddenly make you more valuable to indoctrinate?

And if your only choice is destroy... well, why send you into the hallucination in the first place?  Why have the whole "internal struggle" between TIM and Anderson?  What would be the point of hallucinating something where the only option is to wake up?

I think you are missing some key elements, they have wanted Shepard for a long time for what exact purpose we don't know.

And despite how much EMS it takes to get the synthesis ending, it takes EVEN MORE EMS for the Shepard Alive ending., effectivly making it the the best ending (the best ending typically being the hardest to attain. Indoctrinatation is a puzzle element in that if you don't put all the pieces together to see why destroy is the only option, you would never even know you were indoctrinated because you would most likely pick synthesis thinking it's the best.

Don't forget, the reapers are trying to fool YOU, as well as Shepard.

Modifié par balance5050, 09 mai 2012 - 05:55 .

[Big Bad]

XXIceColdXX wrote...

Jessica Merizan tweeted earlier , the ending is not changing or an addition, just more to visually process.

I'm a fan of IT but tweets like this don't give me hope. Any opinions?

Sorry no link to URL , on mobile phone.

We have pretty much analyzed to death everything that Merizan has ever said, and I don't ever remember her saying anything like that. 

edit:  nevermind, I see that she posted the tweet just today. 

Modifié par Big Bad, 09 mai 2012 - 05:55 .

[balance5050]

XXIceColdXX wrote...

Jessica Merizan tweeted earlier , the ending is not changing or an addition, just more to visually process.

I'm a fan of IT but tweets like this don't give me hope. Any opinions?

Sorry no link to URL , on mobile phone.

Yeah, that's why they're calling in the voice actors, for "visuals".<_<

Modifié par balance5050, 09 mai 2012 - 05:59 .

[Domanese]

Afalstein wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

First of all, I thought control could be the only option if you decide to spare the collector base.

You are correct.  I was unaware of this wrinkle when I posted, I just watched the video and saw that caveat in the credits.  That's also interesting, but it still leaves the question of why synthesis is only available with a high EMS rating.

Secondly, your EMS represents the size of the army you have gathered as well as your determination to defeat the reapers, So if you have amassed a huge fleet, that would be more of a reason for the reapers to indoctrinate Shepard, if your EMS is to low, the reapers have no need for you, and you just die back on Earth or something because your EMS was too low to provide adequate cover.

That's my take atleast.

Except that completely leaves out the gameplay question involved here.  Why would the 'bonus content' unlocked by actually taking time to amass a full force lead only to a wrong choice?  It would be like Bioware WANTED the player not to actually unite the galaxy.

Anyway, in terms of story, this doesn't work if you have a low EMS and spared the collector base, thus getting the control ending only.  Why does that preclude you from escaping indoctrination?  Why would that suddenly make you more valuable to indoctrinate?

And if your only choice is destroy... well, why send you into the hallucination in the first place?  Why have the whole "internal struggle" between TIM and Anderson?  What would be the point of hallucinating something where the only option is to wake up?

I'll take a stab and try and give a decent response to what was stated. 

Okay on the subject of Synthesis and why it is only available with High EMS - If we go with the idea that they are still trying to indoctrinate you then it makes sense that they give a kind of compromise to the Destroy and Control options. The reason being that a paragon character is now going to typically hesitate on going through with the destruction of the reapers yet hesitate on controlling the reapers based on how well that worked for the Illusive Man. Synthesis is just a more cunning trap to get you into their clutches when you pose a very serious threat to them.

EMS in the final moments of the game represents Shepards willpower and optimisim. Saving Anderson is symbotic of your willpower overcoming the most direct route of indoctrination. If Anderson dies prematurely at the hands of Illusive Man then your mind takes a hit in confidence because of it. 

As for why you get only Destroy or Control with Low EMS, Shepards willpower has been almost completely broken. A Broken indidivual serves no purpose to the reapers because they have to have their own subjected willpower to be useful indoctrinated servants for any length of time.

The more control the reapers have to exert on a subject then the less capable they are. So in low Control they probably will make the most they can of Shepard or abandon him like an unwanted trophy. In low Destroy, Shepard cannot make it to the finish line due to both injury and the stress his mind has gone under and he dies before waking up. The reason the breathing scene happens for Destroy is that your willpower is strong enough to keep fighting both the indoctrination and your injuries.

If there are any questions or so forth I will do my best to answer in kind.

[gunslinger_ruiz]

balance5050 wrote...

XXIceColdXX wrote...

Jessica Merizan tweeted earlier , the ending is not changing or an addition, just more to visually process.

I'm a fan of IT but tweets like this don't give me hope. Any opinions?

Sorry no link to URL , on mobile phone.

Yeah, that's why there calling in all the voice actors.<_<

Take the Merizan tweets with a grain of salt, she is a fan like us but with somewhat more information. Some of her tweets are speculation like ours, but well informed speculation. My advice is to wait and see, I know that's hard, but we're getting there.

[Afalstein]

balance5050 wrote...

I think you are missing some key elements, they have wanted Shepard for a long time for what exact purpose we don't know.

And despite how much EMS it takes to get the synthesis ending, it takes EVEN MORE EMS for the Shepard Alive ending., effectivly making it the the best ending if we (the best ending typically being the hardest to attain. Indoctrinatation is a puzzle element in that if you don't put all the pieces together to see why destroy is the only option, you would never even know you were indoctrinated because you would most likely pick synthesis thinking it's the best.

Don't forget, the reapers are trying to fool YOU, as well as Shepard.

...I'm sorry.  You know synthesis is wrong because it looks good?  Is that what you're saying here?

Interesting to hear that the "Shephard Alive" ending also requires high EMS, though it makes sense.  But for me that underscores that this is not simply an indoctrination sequence, not just some "test" that Shepard has to escape.  Even if you pick the "escape" choice, you don't wake up unless you have high points in an unrelated area.

If this was an indoctrination sequence, I'd expect the choices to be more determined on your paragon/renegade status (not gonna discuss red/blue dichotomy).  That would be more reflective of your state of mind--that you could only escape if you'd had enough Ren or Para points, like with Morinth.  The fact that it's dependent on your military force makes me think there's something else going on here.

[Domanese]

Oh and on Jessica's twitter I rarely pay attention to that anymore as I find the PR to be saying almost anything to keep their heads above water. It's damage control at the moment for them.

Also that statement is neither good nor bad on it's own. Because if indoctrination was planned from the get go then nothing has changed. And honestly if they had not planned for that then why would they go to such great lengths to include those minor and major hints all for it to go nowhere?

[balance5050]

Afalstein wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

I think you are missing some key elements, they have wanted Shepard for a long time for what exact purpose we don't know.

And despite how much EMS it takes to get the synthesis ending, it takes EVEN MORE EMS for the Shepard Alive ending., effectivly making it the the best ending if we (the best ending typically being the hardest to attain. Indoctrinatation is a puzzle element in that if you don't put all the pieces together to see why destroy is the only option, you would never even know you were indoctrinated because you would most likely pick synthesis thinking it's the best.

Don't forget, the reapers are trying to fool YOU, as well as Shepard.

...I'm sorry.  You know synthesis is wrong because it looks good?  Is that what you're saying here?

NOnonono, Synthesis is wrong for A LOT of reasons, reasons you should know if you played ME1.

[Arian Dynas]

balance5050 wrote...

XXIceColdXX wrote...

Jessica Merizan tweeted earlier , the ending is not changing or an addition, just more to visually process.

I'm a fan of IT but tweets like this don't give me hope. Any opinions?

Sorry no link to URL , on mobile phone.

Yeah, that's why they're calling in the voice actors, for "visuals".<_<

Once again, inclined to ask "the **** does she know about development"?

Morever, how is "more to visually process" NOT a freaking addition!?

[Afalstein]

Domanese wrote...

I'll take a stab and try and give a decent response to what was stated. 

Okay on the subject of Synthesis and why it is only available with High EMS - If we go with the idea that they are still trying to indoctrinate you then it makes sense that they give a kind of compromise to the Destroy and Control options. The reason being that a paragon character is now going to typically hesitate on going through with the destruction of the reapers yet hesitate on controlling the reapers based on how well that worked for the Illusive Man. Synthesis is just a more cunning trap to get you into their clutches when you pose a very serious threat to them.

Again, Synthesis is wrong because it's appealing?  I get that synthesis is essentially what Saren was talking about and that's why it makes no sense as a choice, but saying that it's off because it's a compromise move... that doesn't make quite as much sense.  And again, this isn't something dependent on your character being a paragon--it comes from the EMS score.

EMS in the final moments of the game represents Shepards willpower and optimisim. Saving Anderson is symbotic of your willpower overcoming the most direct route of indoctrination. If Anderson dies prematurely at the hands of Illusive Man then your mind takes a hit in confidence because of it. 

As for why you get only Destroy or Control with Low EMS, Shepards willpower has been almost completely broken. A Broken indidivual serves no purpose to the reapers because they have to have their own subjected willpower to be useful indoctrinated servants for any length of time.

The more control the reapers have to exert on a subject then the less capable they are. So in low Control they probably will make the most they can of Shepard or abandon him like an unwanted trophy. In low Destroy, Shepard cannot make it to the finish line due to both injury and the stress his mind has gone under and he dies before waking up. The reason the breathing scene happens for Destroy is that your willpower is strong enough to keep fighting both the indoctrination and your injuries.

If there are any questions or so forth I will do my best to answer in kind.

Okay, I'm going to reveal my ignorance here at last--doesn't EMS stand for your military readiness?  The amount of forces you've amassed?  Because all you're talking about here are character attributes, and I haven't heard anyone talking about how the choices are dependent on your reputation points or your Renegade scoring.  Again, I'd expect that if this were an indoctrination sequence, but I haven't heard it.  But then, seeing as how I'm a little unclear as to what EMS actually stands for, maybe I should keep my fat mouth shut.

I will say that your explanation here of synthesis makes better sense--that Shepard's a more effective tool for them synthesized and is too strong-willed to be taken another way.  But still the low destroy makes no sense--why put him through the hallucination just to throw him back out again?  And what does the destruction of Earth signify, in that context?

[DJBare]

Afalstein wrote...

So new question. Watching AngryJoe's breakdown of the IT theory (which he supports) he listed a few counterarguments, and one to me appears particularly interesting. Apparently you don't get the other two options (control and synthesis) unless you have high EMS points. Destroy is ALWAYS an option, but the other two only appear if you've worked hard at it.

Why is that? I didn't know this fact before, and it intrigues me for a number of reasons, not just because of the IT complications. But I am interested to hear the IT take on it. Why is the "right" choice the easiest one to get, and why are the wrong ones only available if you earn them?

When considering IT after being hit by the laser then nothing is real, so none of the choices are in the real world, two are temptations, control and synthesis, the third destroy is Shepard overcoming the indoctrination attempt while s/he lies unconscious still on earth.

[SubAstris]

Rifneno wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

You are making assumptions about the extent of the Catalyst'sabilities which cannot unfortunately be substantiated by anything in game

I see. Just because he has the power to command a massive army of hyper-advanced machines a hundred thousand light years away doesn't mean he has the power to hit the "On" switch to the relay built into the device he's literally a part of.

That makes sense.

We don't know the extent of his power nonetheless.

[Afalstein]

balance5050 wrote...

NOnonono, Synthesis is wrong for A LOT of reasons, reasons you should know if you played ME1.

Actually I have.  It just doesn't show on my profile because I bought it on Steam and never registered it on here.  And I get the undertones with Saren, but you didn't say that.  You said that the thing with the high EMS was just to make it LOOK desirable.  Which doesn't make a lot of sense.  Even without much military backup, Shepard's a fine soldier, and like you said, they'd been trying to get him since the Collector days, when he didn't have a big army behind him.  Why hold back the synthesis option now.

By the way, though synthesis DOES line up with Saren's fall, it also lines up with the Geth/Quarian peace, and the Geth even going into the Quarian bodysuits to help them adapt faster.  And, of course, the Joker/EDI thing, which they couldn't have made clearer.  I agree there's an inconsistency there, which the story leaves unresolved, but within ME3 itself, synthesis is viewed much more positively.

[Earthborn_Shepard]

so, discover anything interesting in the last 8 hours?

[spotlessvoid]

Arian Dynas wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

XXIceColdXX wrote...

Jessica Merizan tweeted earlier , the ending is not changing or an addition, just more to visually process.

I'm a fan of IT but tweets like this don't give me hope. Any opinions?

Sorry no link to URL , on mobile phone.

Yeah, that's why they're calling in the voice actors, for "visuals".<_<

Once again, inclined to ask "the **** does she know about development"?

Morever, how is "more to visually process" NOT a freaking addition!?

More clues for the indoctrinated

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Afalstein wrote...

Domanese wrote...

I'll take a stab and try and give a decent response to what was stated. 

Okay on the subject of Synthesis and why it is only available with High EMS - If we go with the idea that they are still trying to indoctrinate you then it makes sense that they give a kind of compromise to the Destroy and Control options. The reason being that a paragon character is now going to typically hesitate on going through with the destruction of the reapers yet hesitate on controlling the reapers based on how well that worked for the Illusive Man. Synthesis is just a more cunning trap to get you into their clutches when you pose a very serious threat to them.

Again, Synthesis is wrong because it's appealing?  I get that synthesis is essentially what Saren was talking about and that's why it makes no sense as a choice, but saying that it's off because it's a compromise move... that doesn't make quite as much sense.  And again, this isn't something dependent on your character being a paragon--it comes from the EMS score.

Here is a breakdown of the choices and who spoke for them throughout the games. It should answer anything concerning what is the right choice and it does not even touch on the IT.



It is quite long but well worth the watch.