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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#56501
Hawk227

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gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Does she sound like BroShep?  'Cause he did the voices of all the Vorcha in ME2.


Is that really true!? He also did the voices of most (all?) of the volus (voli, voluses?) in ME2. Once I noticed it, it made the Biotic god scene... weird.


I vote for Voli, sounds canon no?


Now that I think about it, it may just be Vol. There is such a thing as the Vol Protectorate in the game.

#56502
Simon_Says

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gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

I vote for Voli, sounds canon no?

Unfortunately I think the games already layed it out that volus was both the singular and plural form for members of that species. I think Vol is just the adjective or possesive form of the word.

paxxton wrote...

Maybe the Crucible focuses dark energy to create a deadly superweapon that bends the very fabric of spacetime
creating quantum discontinuities that absorb the spacetime around them like black holes. You can point that weapon at exactly the space where a Reaper is.

Just 'cause you can say it doesn't mean you aren't talking out of your ass here. "Quantum discontinuities"? "Absorbing spacetime"? Contrary to popular interpretation, black holes aren't vaccuum cleaners. If you want to describe something very scary with lots of technojargonbabblations that actually has some scientific plausibility, try Vaccuum Metastability Event. Sorry for any sleepless nights as you wonder if some morons somewhere, somehow, somewhen in the distant past far far away caused the annihilation of their civilization, of every civilization everywhere. And that'd we'd never see it coming.

TSA_383 wrote...

Me1mN0t wrote...

Since I got into ME all those years ago, I was completely hooked. To this day, I'm unable to enjoy any other game to the level I adore ME and my Shepards. Its the ambiance, characters, technology, philosophy. There is something about this Sci-Fi world that strikes a chord with me. More than any other Sci-Fi Fiction I've ever indulged in. Before
you tell me I'm stupid and theres better written and executed SF stories out there, remember this is all subjective. Don't ask me why, but the future protrayed in ME is the kind of future I hope for (minus the Reaper threat lol). Whether it makes perfect sense to you or not... I still think the ending was brilliant on so many levels. It pains me to
see the stubborn ignorance on this forum that insists the ending was BAD and refuse to believe IT is a real possibily and been planned for awhile. Filing lawsuits, DEMANDING a different ending... these things make me ashamed to be a gamer.

I had shielded myself from pre-launch media for my first playthrough. I am not lying when I say that I saw the indoctrination coming a mile away. Don't get me wrong, though I have considered this possibility since ME1 when Shep was first exposed to Reaper Tech, I did not notice the subtle clues during 3. The only thought I had was that the little boy wasn't real, Although I didn't know what to make of it.

At the end, I felt sad and hopeless, ready to give into dispair. Think about, this is how indoctrination works. The clues are scattered ALL throughout the trilogy and books. You just need to open your mind and accept new possibilties. Not everything is at it seems.

I honestly don't think this is the end of ME OR Shepard. The Reapers will take years, possibly centuries to conquer all organic life. Harbinger wants Shepard ALIVE. This war WILL continue.


Hear hear! Welcome to the thread, we have cookies and intellegent debate and whatnot. And yes, trying to
debate some on this forum I find it difficult to understand their thinking... not quite sure why anyone would take everything the "Catalyst" says at face value.

I recall Subastris actually trying to defend the Catalyst and its case. I believe the reapers do execute the cycles for a reason. One that, ultimately, can be understood on an academic level. But never on an intuitive one. And never one that could allow room for coexistence of any sort.

Consider the darkspawn from the Dragon Age verse. An alien form of life that reproduces parasitically on other
species. That are driven to cause unfathomable destruction and suffering because, simply, it is in their nature to do so, whatever that nature actually is. They're very presence begets poison and disease. Their footprints are the ones of devestation to non-darkspawn life. They are a part of the natural order for all we know, but peaceful coexistence  is not possible. In the end, their continued existence means there will be an endless war for survival. One that can only end with one side exterminating the other.

In Awakening you can allow one intelligent darkspawn to continue its efforts to uplift its kind to greater awareness. It promises that perhaps a sort of peace can be brokered between the darkspawn and non-darkspawn if the darkspawn can become intelligent. But it's a fools hope. Darkspawn bring disease, madness and terror wherever they go. Darkspawn reproduce by rape and mutation. Their existence comes at the expense of ours.

The reapers are no different.

Modifié par Simon_Says, 13 mai 2012 - 04:37 .


#56503
spotlessvoid

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Reapers reap because they hate people that don't close their mouths when they eat.

#56504
TSA_383

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Salient Archer wrote...

Good afternoon all... Did I miss anything exciting in the past 24 hours?

Well there was that picture of casey hudson jerking off on a street corner in San Diego with "Well done ITers you were right" tattooed across his chest....


Nah, not really.

Oh, except that bioware has used indoctrination-type effects in several of their other games before:
http://social.biowar.../index/10973597

Big Bad wrote...

Good luck!  I'm sure that all of the IT
thinking and analysis that you've been doing will be an excellent brain
warmup for your exam!  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

I know we've done some lateral thinking in here but if you can relate this stuff: http://www.aerostude...OfVibration.pdf
to indoctrination theory you're obviously a lot smarter than I will ever be and thus welcome to sit it in my place :lol:
Cheers though, could do with some good luck for this :?

Simon_Says wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Maybe the Crucible focuses dark energy to create a deadly superweapon that bends the very fabric of spacetime
creating
quantum discontinuities that absorb the spacetime around them like
black holes. You can point that weapon at exactly the space where a
Reaper is.

Just 'cause you can say it doesn't mean you aren't
talking out of your ass here. "Quantum discontinuities"? "Absorbing
spacetime"? Contrary to popular interpretation, black holes aren't
vaccuum cleaners. If you want to describe something very scary with lots
of technojargonbabblations that actually has some scientific plausibility, try Vaccuum Metastability Event.
Sorry for any sleepless nights as you wonder if some morons somewhere,
somehow, somewhen in the distant past far far away caused the
annihilation of their civilization, of every civilization everywhere.
And that'd we'd never see it coming.

But don't you know? The word "quantum" can be applied to anything in scifi that you want to sound more awesome and clever [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]


Simon_Says wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

Me1mN0t wrote...

Since
I got into ME all those years ago, I was completely hooked. To this
day, I'm unable to enjoy any other game to the level I adore ME and my
Shepards. Its the ambiance, characters, technology, philosophy. There is
something about this Sci-Fi world that strikes a chord with me. More
than any other Sci-Fi Fiction I've ever indulged in. Before
you
tell me I'm stupid and theres better written and executed SF stories
out there, remember this is all subjective. Don't ask me why, but the
future protrayed in ME is the kind of future I hope for (minus the
Reaper threat lol). Whether it makes perfect sense to you or not... I
still think the ending was brilliant on so many levels. It pains me to
see
the stubborn ignorance on this forum that insists the ending was BAD
and refuse to believe IT is a real possibily and been planned for
awhile. Filing lawsuits, DEMANDING a different ending... these things
make me ashamed to be a gamer.

I had shielded myself from
pre-launch media for my first playthrough. I am not lying when I say
that I saw the indoctrination coming a mile away. Don't get me wrong,
though I have considered this possibility since ME1 when Shep was first
exposed to Reaper Tech, I did not notice the subtle clues during 3. The
only thought I had was that the little boy wasn't real, Although I
didn't know what to make of it.

At the end, I felt sad and
hopeless, ready to give into dispair. Think about, this is how
indoctrination works. The clues are scattered ALL throughout the trilogy
and books. You just need to open your mind and accept new possibilties.
Not everything is at it seems.

I honestly don't think this is
the end of ME OR Shepard. The Reapers will take years, possibly
centuries to conquer all organic life. Harbinger wants Shepard ALIVE.
This war WILL continue.


Hear hear! Welcome to the thread, we have cookies and intellegent debate and whatnot. And yes, trying to
debate some on this forum I find it difficult to understand their thinking... not quite sure why anyone would take everything the "Catalyst" says at face value.

I recall Subastris actually trying to defend the Catalyst and its case. I believe the reapers do execute
the cycles for a reason. One that, ultimately, can be understood on an
academic level. But never on an intuitive one. And never one that could
allow room for coexistence of any sort.

Consider the darkspawn from the Dragon Age verse. An alien form of life that reproduces parasitically on other
species.
That are driven to cause unfathomable destruction and suffering
because, simply, it is in their nature to do so, whatever that nature
actually is. They're very presence begets poison and disease. Their
footprints are the ones of devestation to non-darkspawn life. They are a
part of the natural order for all we know, but peaceful coexistence  is
not possible. In the end, their continued existence means there will be
an endless war for survival. One that can only end with one side
exterminating the other.

In Awakening you can allow one
intelligent darkspawn to continue its efforts to uplift its kind to
greater awareness. It promises that perhaps a sort of peace can be
brokered between the darkspawn and non-darkspawn if the darkspawn can
become intelligent. But it's a fools hope. Darkspawn bring disease,
madness and terror wherever they go. Darkspawn reproduce by rape and
mutation. Their existence comes at the expense of ours.

The reapers are no different.


Exactly.
I
find it faintly entertaining that the irony never seems to dawn on
these people that they're arguing there can't be indoctrination in the
game, whilst defending the being that, if not one itself, at the very least controls the reapers.

It's fascinating from a psychological point of view, at least, even if they are incredibly frustrating to argue with...

Modifié par TSA_383, 13 mai 2012 - 04:47 .


#56505
Dwailing

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Hawk227 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Completely unrelated story:
Broke up with my girl 3 days ago because she is immature and selfish. Went to dinner tonight with this cute girl from work. Very nice young lady, but she eats like a ****ing Vorcha. Open mouth, smacking noises, slurps, and she flicks her tongue out. WTF IS THAT?! It's Revolting! Who eats like that? Toddlers, thats who. It made me lose my appetite. I didn't have the heart to say anything though. I don't even know how I'm going to look at her when I go back to work.
Should have spent the evening right here in this thread.


Does she sound like BroShep?  'Cause he did the voices of all the Vorcha in ME2.


Is that really true!? He also did the voices of most (all?) of the volus (voli, voluses?) in ME2. Once I noticed it, it made the Biotic god scene... weird.


Yeah, he did the voice of Niftu Cal A.K.A. Biotic God, and he did the voices of all the Vorcha.

#56506
spotlessvoid

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All jokes aside, whatever the Reapers are up to it's exclusively for their own benefit. It's not to benevolently ascend other species. It's not for the reason Xzibit so eloquently states. It's because they need to.
Whether it's because they need new reapers, don't want to risk organics or synthetics getting powerful enough to one day challenge them, pure hatred, or just good old fashioned genocidal fun - I couldn't tell you. But it isn't anything good

#56507
Hawk227

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Dwailing wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

Is that really true!? He also did the voices of most (all?) of the volus (voli, voluses?) in ME2. Once I noticed it, it made the Biotic god scene... weird.


Yeah, he did the voice of Niftu Cal A.K.A. Biotic God, and he did the voices of all the Vorcha.


Crazy. Mark Meer doing Vorcha. I'm pretty sure he did more than just Niftu Cal.

Also, does anyone else think its funny so many bit part VA are canadian? The Asari councilor in particular amuses me. Why does the Asari councilor have a canadian accent?

#56508
TSA_383

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Salient Archer wrote...

Good afternoon all... Did I miss anything exciting in the past 24 hours?


Just realised I forgot one thing:
Image IPB
http://i45.tinypic.com/34fl4i0.png
We were trying to understand how these work.

If people send me their LegendSave files + details, I'll do a hex compare and see what stuff gets saved for (probable DLC & EC) use...

Modifié par TSA_383, 13 mai 2012 - 04:53 .


#56509
marcelo_sdk

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Rifneno wrote...

HyperGlass wrote...

I don't think they would be named as a reference. Why would they place a refernece to something that would only be found by someone who has the need to look through the game files? It's not a good place to put a easter egg if it is one.


An easter egg I doubt. Accidentally letting their real intents on an object slip out because they forgot we can see that stuff even in the compressed file? That sounds more likely. Oh BTW, take a gander at the name of the "control" ending device:

Image IPB

MegumiAzusa wrote...

I actually wish there would be a way to save TIM, I always feel sorry for him.


That makes one of us. There's two possibilities. Either indoctrination has been affecting him for far longer than we thought, in which case the real Jack Harper died decades ago, or he was truly responsible for Cerberus' vast list of crimes prior to ME3. And if that's the case, **** him with a rake.

Simon_Says wrote...

It's like the Suicide Mission but with a much higher success limit. The Suicide Mission could fail, or succeed at great cost. Only if you work your ass off beforehand are you going to manage to earn the best outcome.


That reminds me. I remember reading that the lowest you could get through with no casualties was 2 loyal squaddies. 95% sure it was a comment from a dev. Anyone know if that was accurate, and if so, what the setup is? I've been curious for the longest time.

HyperGlass wrote...

I doesn't but if TIM killed himself.....I keep thinking back to how Soverign was killed because Sarren was killed. I keep thinking that the Reapers would have been weakened similiar to that.
TIM killing himself = he fought it off weaking the Reapers (my guess)
TIM not kiling himself = vice versa
Or am I missing out Anderson in this?


Saren's death lead to Sovereign being, for lack of a better word, stunned. Theoretically that could probably work again but it would only work on the Reaper directly controlling the slain avatar. Not all of them. Also, the Reaper in question would have to be a ****** like Nazara was. Remember when Shepard blew up the Collector Base? Harbinger specifically said he was releasing control of the Collector General a moment before it died. So Sovereign would've been alright if he'd just disconnected from Geth Stalker Mk. II Saren before Shepard owned it.

liggy002 wrote...

Here is one of the most interesting questions of all: If we assume IT is true, what does the Crucible actually do?


That's an interesting question. I'm glad you mentioned that, because I had a theory yesterday I totally forgot about before I got home to post it. I seriously doubt this is the case, but it'd be an interesting twist.

Okay, mass effect. It works by charging energy through element zero, right? The more of each, the more powerful effect. Now we know that the Crucible draws a tremendous amount of energy, right? That's all they COULD determine from it. And the "catalyst" is the Citadel. The Citadel itself is a dormant mass relay remember. Logically speaking, it must have the largest element zero core of anything we know about. It sustains its own barriers over many miles, and it links a great distance into dark space where the Reapers lie in wait, much farther than any mass relay goes. Here's my thought. What if they Crucible, rather than being a Reaper trap in the sense we thought, is the Reapers using organics to help them create a mass relay powerful enough to link with a neaby galaxy? I mean, they have us making a device that produces unimaginable power and they've got us hooking it up to the biggest eezo core they have.

The only wrinkle in it is that mass relays need to be in pairs. So there would have to be one at the destination as well. Though it's possible that once the Crucible has been "perfected" they'll fly it over there with conventional FTL and build another one here. It would take hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of years, but it's not like Reapers have a deadline.


Well, assuming that the Reapers objective of protecting organics is real, they would want to "save" the organics of other galaxies (assuming all of them would have sentient life). Based on their estimated FTL speed of 30 Light Years in 24 hours, the Reapers, departing from the Milky Way, would take approximately 2740 years. It's a long time, but for them its not an impossible travel.

Altough the theory is interesting, I don't support it. As I said, they could have done that long ago. And perhaps they did, we don't know many thing about the Reapers. I disagree when BW says that we don't need to know the Reapers history. I agree that making a interrogatory with the Catalyst on that moment would be very idiot, but they can (and have to) tell us all this "desnecessary" stuff with an DLC, game, book, anything. 

Modifié par marcelo_sdk, 13 mai 2012 - 04:55 .


#56510
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Some more stuff I found:

http://img525.images...berusreaper.jpg

Image IPB

Looks awfully familiar, I'd say.

Oh and I took my renegade Shepard though the last level, except I changed his eye color completely red, so his whole eye including the white part was red. When I picked the Control option, I saw a hint of blue on the eyes, which hints of indoctrination. I was just doing it as a test. I wouldn't really pick the control option.

Modifié par magnetite, 13 mai 2012 - 05:01 .


#56511
marcelo_sdk

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Salient Archer wrote...

Good afternoon all... Did I miss anything exciting in the past 24 hours?


2AM here, but good afternoon

#56512
Hawk227

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marcelo_sdk wrote...

Well, altough the Reaper objective of protecting organics is real, they would want to "save" the organics of other galaxies (assuming all of them would have sentient life). Based on their estimated FTL speed of 30 Light Years in 24 hours, the Reapers, departing from the Milky Way, would take approximately 2740 years. It's a long time, but for them its not an impossible travel.


2740 years to go where?

The andromeda galaxy is 2.6 million light years away from Earth. At 30ly/day, it would take only 237.44 years to travel from Earth to Andromeda.

#56513
gunslinger_ruiz

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magnetite wrote...

Some more stuff I found:

http://img525.images...berusreaper.jpg

Image IPB

Looks awfully familiar, I'd say.


Hm, concept art looks like it was meant to show cerberus troops making a push andgetting massacred by reapers.

#56514
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The room is exactly the same design. Coincidence? Look at all the dead bodies and the wires and such. They are the same design.

#56515
Hawk227

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Meer also voiced "Fade" from the beginning of Garrus's loyalty.

#56516
gunslinger_ruiz

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magnetite wrote...

The room is exactly the same design. Coincidence? Look at all the dead bodies and the wires and such. They are the same design.


Yeh. Looks like concept art for the Dark Corridor on the Citadel. Cept with cerberus bodies and husks.

#56517
Rifneno

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Simon_Says wrote...

Why oh why haven't we found the assets used for the destruction ending.


Did. They're not named anything special because they've been used before, for other purposes. Recycled models. The control one is unique to the ending.

Hawk227 wrote...

I'm not sure it would be necessary. At 30 ly/day and without having to refuel (the reapers are capable of both) it would take a measley 238 years to get to the Andromeda galaxy. That's nothing to a reaper.


Hmm, that's true. I forgot that the reasoning we've always had on why the Reapers only murder the Milky Way was based on a false assumption as it turned out they weren't affected by that static electricity crap.

Simon_Says wrote...

Just 'cause you can say it doesn't mean you aren't talking out of your ass here. "Quantum discontinuities"? "Absorbing spacetime"? Contrary to popular interpretation, black holes aren't vaccuum cleaners. If you want to describe something very scary with lots of technojargonbabblations that actually has some scientific plausibility, try Vaccuum Metastability Event. Sorry for any sleepless nights as you wonder if some morons somewhere, somehow, somewhen in the distant past far far away caused the annihilation of their civilization, of every civilization everywhere. And that'd we'd never see it coming.


Owwww, my brain! :(

I passed out trying to understand that wiki link. Something tells me I should have been awake at some point in high school.

In Awakening you can allow one intelligent darkspawn to continue its efforts to uplift its kind to greater awareness. It promises that perhaps a sort of peace can be brokered between the darkspawn and non-darkspawn if the darkspawn can become intelligent. But it's a fools hope. Darkspawn bring disease, madness and terror wherever they go. Darkspawn reproduce by rape and mutation. Their existence comes at the expense of ours.


It still cracks me up that some people don't believe the Architect was the same as Corypheus. I guess I can understand why IT is so hard for some people to believe. To many, if they didn't pick up on it, then it cannot be so.

Hawk227 wrote...

Also, does anyone else think its funny so many bit part VA are canadian? The Asari councilor in particular amuses me. Why does the Asari councilor have a canadian accent?


No. Bioware's based in Canada. Makes sense they're hire locally, especially for minor parts. As for the asari councilor, why does the last voice of the Protheans have a heavy Jamaican accent? Like anvil heavy.

#56518
TSA_383

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magnetite wrote...

The room is exactly the same design. Coincidence? Look at all the dead bodies and the wires and such. They are the same design.

Because that's the original concept art for the very same room ;)

#56519
marcelo_sdk

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Hawk227 wrote...

marcelo_sdk wrote...

Well, altough the Reaper objective of protecting organics is real, they would want to "save" the organics of other galaxies (assuming all of them would have sentient life). Based on their estimated FTL speed of 30 Light Years in 24 hours, the Reapers, departing from the Milky Way, would take approximately 2740 years. It's a long time, but for them its not an impossible travel.


2740 years to go where?

The andromeda galaxy is 2.6 million light years away from Earth. At 30ly/day, it would take only 237.44 years to travel from Earth to Andromeda.


Srry, forget saying was talking about Andromeda. Anyway, the distance I have here is 2.9 million light years. But I was wrong, I typped an additional zero here. Anyway, it would take 274 years with my distance. So, it's not just possible, it's kind of an easy task for the Reapers.

#56520
Hawk227

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Rifneno wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

Also, does anyone else think its funny so many bit part VA are canadian? The Asari councilor in particular amuses me. Why does the Asari councilor have a canadian accent?


No. Bioware's based in Canada. Makes sense they're hire locally, especially for minor parts. As for the asari councilor, why does the last voice of the Protheans have a heavy Jamaican accent? Like anvil heavy.


I didn't mean to imply it wasn't understandable, just funny. I would think voice actors should be able to mask their accents. That's kind of the basis for the gig, right.

As for Javik, it's actually African (I think Kenyan, specifically). Not Jamaican. Personally, I didn't mind it because it was a unique accent within the universe. The Canadian thing jumped out (especially in ME1) because it was all over the place.

EDIT: It was Nigerian, not Kenyan.

Modifié par Hawk227, 13 mai 2012 - 05:14 .


#56521
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TSA_383 wrote...
Because that's the original concept art for the very same room ;)


In the art book, that room is actually listed as being apart of Cerberus Headquarters, not The Citadel. You were to walk past all those bodies, and arrive at the Illusive Man's office. Least according to the art book.

Modifié par magnetite, 13 mai 2012 - 05:17 .


#56522
gunslinger_ruiz

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magnetite wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...
Because that's the original concept art for the very same room ;)


In the art book, that room is actually listed as being apart of Cerberus Headquarters, not The Citadel. You were to walk past all those bodies, and arrive at the Illusive Man's office. Least according to the art book.


Alright, I got it, it's what if time *tinfoil hat equipped*

What if... The indoctrination attempt....Starts on The Illusive Man's station? That's where the end-game save reverts you to, right? Simple explanation, after the Station mission you can't go anywhere else so it would be an ideal place to have an end-game save.... but, what IF?

#56523
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Shepard has actually been going through a slow indoctrination process. Doesn't start with Cerberus Headquarters. It's been going on for some time, before Mass Effect 3.

#56524
TSA_383

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gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

magnetite wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...
Because that's the original concept art for the very same room ;)


In the art book, that room is actually listed as being apart of Cerberus Headquarters, not The Citadel. You were to walk past all those bodies, and arrive at the Illusive Man's office. Least according to the art book.


Alright, I got it, it's what if time *tinfoil hat equipped*

What if... The indoctrination attempt....Starts on The Illusive Man's station? That's where the end-game save reverts you to, right? Simple explanation, after the Station mission you can't go anywhere else so it would be an ideal place to have an end-game save.... but, what IF?

Hang on, does that mean the reapers made Shep bang Liara?

"Indoctrination Theory - Answering the important questions"


(also, magnetite got it right in the post above, indoc probably starts at arrival or earlier depending on the canon/not canon state of Arrival & Object Rho)

Modifié par TSA_383, 13 mai 2012 - 05:25 .


#56525
gunslinger_ruiz

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This songs been out since march but only just heard it now

Miracle of Sound - TAKE IT BACK!

Anyone else completely miss it? It's pretty awesome.

EDIT: link wouldn't stick for some reason, trying agian. i all else feels heres the adress

Modifié par gunslinger_ruiz, 13 mai 2012 - 05:30 .