57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Deputy Secretary of Awesome]

Razhathael wrote...

I don't know if this has been brought up and answered, because honestly I lost track of this thread at the 100's. So I'll ask now. While I'd like to believe in the indoctrination theory so starbrat wouldn't exist, and there might be some hope for the geth...

What makes me wonder is how the whole theory seems to be based on "Choose destroy to break free, starchild is trying to get you to choose the other two". But that clearly isn't true, If a player has a low EFS score, he only gets to choose destroy. Now, even if we go by the whole "low EMS Shepard isn't worthy enough to be indoctrinated by them" -theory, why would the reapers want to be destroyed? They give no other option other than have Shepard blow it up.

Or in the case reapers aren't really destroyed from it, why would they let Shepard just walk away from the indoctrination? What was the point of dragging him up there?

Not trying to start a flamewar of IT vs. anti-IT, but I don't see how these points could be argued.

It's an excellent question, and there's been discussion on it before, but it's hard to find where now, haha.

One thing to add which I only discovered a few weeks after I finished as that it is not always Destroy that's available at Low EMS. In fact, it is either Destroy or Control, depending on whether you saved or destroyed the Collector Base in ME2.

So with Low EMS, if you destroyed the Collector Base, your only option is Destroy.
With Low EMS, if you saved the Collector Base, your only option is Control.

For IT, this seems like a really big hint. Saving the Collector Base means essentially saving a massive amount of Reaper tech. Hence, when you get to the ending (the big attempt to Indoctrinate Shepard), you are always successfully Indoctrinated.

If you Destroyed the Collector Base, then Shepard's inclination is to reject that concept, and you always reject Indoctrination. But, like you said, why is that the case with Low EMS? And why do they then try and pull out all the stops to Indoctrinate you with higher EMS?

I think it comes down to how much they see Shep as a threat or as valuable, and perhaps also a measure of if you have sufficient war assets to keep Shep alive while he is unconcious and struggling with Indoctrination in the ending.

For example, with Low EMS, they don't particularly fear or care about Shep, because either way his war assets are so low that Shep will fail. Possibly also that Shep may die regardless, so why put in the effort?

But with High EMS, they really do need to stop him.

I actually talked about some of this in greater detail in a thread of mine:
http://social.biowar.../index/12013315

The thread is about what Synthesis could mean, but I do go into this whole issue too, if you're interested in finding out more about it.

[D.Sharrah]

Razhathael wrote...

I don't know if this has been brought up and answered, because honestly I lost track of this thread at the 100's. So I'll ask now. While I'd like to believe in the indoctrination theory so starbrat wouldn't exist, and there might be some hope for the geth...

What makes me wonder is how the whole theory seems to be based on "Choose destroy to break free, starchild is trying to get you to choose the other two". But that clearly isn't true, If a player has a low EFS score, he only gets to choose destroy. Now, even if we go by the whole "low EMS Shepard isn't worthy enough to be indoctrinated by them" -theory, why would the reapers want to be destroyed? They give no other option other than have Shepard blow it up.

Or in the case reapers aren't really destroyed from it, why would they let Shepard just walk away from the indoctrination? What was the point of dragging him up there?

Not trying to start a flamewar of IT vs. anti-IT, but I don't see how these points could be argued.

If you ascribe to the theory that the Crucible is a Reaper Trap, and that your EMS is essentially creating a better or worse trap based on its rating...then it would make sense to believe that lowest EMS means worst trap and so on and so on.  So its no wonder that SC is pissed in the low EMS endings you have not "fallen" for creating the uber Reaper trap and have left no choice...important to note here that Destroy is only the option if you destoyed the collector base...if you saved the base then the only choice is control...in both these cases, you are not giving the SC what he wants, which is synthesis (and in IT, Shepard being the ultimate indoctrinated agent).

[Razhathael]

Thank you, both for the answers. It certainly gives me more hope for the indoctrination theory to be true, even if I'm a bit skeptical of Bioware using it.

[EricHVela]

While I have my reasons for not accepting IT, I thought it fair to add that a very Renegade Shepard without surgery can actually =lose= scars after getting hit by Harby. To me, this is just another sloppy oversight sacrificed to rushed work, but for those who think otherwise, this adds validity to IT.

[marcelo_sdk]

Somebody knows if the Reapers attacked the Raloi? They tried to hide, destroyed their satellites, but surely the Citadel would have some records about them. Perhaps they didn't have the time, since when they assumed control of the Citadel, they went immediately to Earth.

[EpyonX3]

Simon_Says wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Garrus Vakarian: "So who likes my signature now?".

Garrus Vakarian: "I'm Garrus Vakarian. And this is my rectum!"

While I like Gamer Poop too, can we please stop parroting it every other page? Please?

It's gonna die off faster than Monty Python references at this rate.

And just like that, the magic will be gone.

[Rosewind]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Garrus Vakarian: "So who likes my signature now?".

Garrus Vakarian: "I'm Garrus Vakarian. And this is my rectum!"

While I like Gamer Poop too, can we please stop parroting it every other page? Please?

It's gonna die off faster than Monty Python references at this rate.

And just like that, the magic will be gone.

I don't blame him we did go for a few posts of it yesterday.

[TSA_383]

A quick thought:

-From above, the "choice" area is a dialogue wheel.

Could this be another hint? Surely you should see that and realise that there's something not quite right and yet very significant about the choice you're about to make...

[SS2Dante]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

I realize that. I don't have MP so I've never had more than 3500 ems, so I don't know how it plays out. What I'm asking is whether EMS has anything to do with whether TIM kills Shepard, or if it is just a failure to trigger an interrupt.

You can paragon talk him down like Saren, Anderson still dies.

Does Anderson still bleed out next to Shepard after the "I'm proud of you" line?

If you don't talk TIM down, and don't renegade interrupt him before he shoots Anderson he executes him and (to my knowledge) says to Shepard "You dissapoint me Shepard" and then kills him/her. Critical Mission Failure. You're saying there are additional dialogue options AFTER he executes Anderson?

No, Anderson will bleed out and TIM will be dead. The only thing that changes when TIM killed himself is that he doesn't say "Earth. I wish you could see it like I do, Shepard. It's so... perfect."

We are the Harbinger of your perfection.

[Rosewind]

SS2Dante wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

I realize that. I don't have MP so I've never had more than 3500 ems, so I don't know how it plays out. What I'm asking is whether EMS has anything to do with whether TIM kills Shepard, or if it is just a failure to trigger an interrupt.

You can paragon talk him down like Saren, Anderson still dies.

Does Anderson still bleed out next to Shepard after the "I'm proud of you" line?

If you don't talk TIM down, and don't renegade interrupt him before he shoots Anderson he executes him and (to my knowledge) says to Shepard "You dissapoint me Shepard" and then kills him/her. Critical Mission Failure. You're saying there are additional dialogue options AFTER he executes Anderson?

No, Anderson will bleed out and TIM will be dead. The only thing that changes when TIM killed himself is that he doesn't say "Earth. I wish you could see it like I do, Shepard. It's so... perfect."

We are the Harbinger of your perfection.

You feel this!

[MaximizedAction]

TSA_383 wrote...

A quick thought:

-From above, the "choice" area is a dialogue wheel.

Could this be another hint? Surely you should see that and realise that there's something not quite right and yet very significant about the choice you're about to make...

Yeah, something like this has been proposed a couple of hundred pages ago. But the odd thing is:
Paragon is in the northwest.
Renegade is in the southwest.

The only thing mixed up, is the color of the ending choices Destroy and Control.

[DJBare]

MaximizedAction wrote...

TIM's office and the Console Level on the Citadel certaintly have similarities. Including their round architecture and the round plattform in the middle.

Within the framework of IT, adds to the idea of Shepard seeing places similar to his memories.

And the view when Shepard opens the arms "front row seats"; TIM's chair.

Modifié par DJBare, 13 mai 2012 - 03:10 .

[MaximizedAction]

DJBare wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

TIM's office and the Console Level on the Citadel certaintly have similarities. Including their round architecture and the round plattform in the middle.

Within the framework of IT, adds to the idea of Shepard seeing places similar to his memories.

And the view when Shepard opens the arms "front row seats"; TIM's chair.

And a console in the front.
And how TIM crashes the party both times while coming in from behind Shepard.

If Kai Leng hadn't destroyed TIM's office there would've been some interesting possibilities for 'further' speculations...

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 13 mai 2012 - 03:19 .

[CavemanLog]

I'm sorry, I've been lurking on this article since page 600 or so, but have probably missed things here and there. What is the possibility that ID took hold at the point where enter TIM's main room. Say the whole fight with Kei Lang is fake and everything from there on out was also under the influence.

[SS2Dante]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

magnetite wrote...

Some more stuff I found:

http://img525.images...berusreaper.jpg



Looks awfully familiar, I'd say.

Hm, concept art looks like it was meant to show cerberus troops making a push andgetting massacred by reapers.

I thought, according to the art book, that there was a whole section in TIM's base that was cut (including his boss fight). This is an explanation given for the similarities in the Citadel, that it was reused assets from the original TIM base section.

[EpyonX3]

Rosewind wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Simon_Says wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Garrus Vakarian: "So who likes my signature now?".

Garrus Vakarian: "I'm Garrus Vakarian. And this is my rectum!"

While I like Gamer Poop too, can we please stop parroting it every other page? Please?

It's gonna die off faster than Monty Python references at this rate.

And just like that, the magic will be gone.

I don't blame him we did go for a few posts of it yesterday.

Oh didn't notice that lol. I meant it as a joke anyways. Hope he gets it.

[MaximizedAction]

SS2Dante wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

magnetite wrote...

Some more stuff I found:

http://img525.images...berusreaper.jpg



Looks awfully familiar, I'd say.

Hm, concept art looks like it was meant to show cerberus troops making a push andgetting massacred by reapers.

I thought, according to the art book, that there was a whole section in TIM's base that was cut (including his boss fight). This is an explanation given for the similarities in the Citadel, that it was reused assets from the original TIM base section.

That's a great explaination! Makes sense to me from the developer's point of view. But that doesn't change the design choices for the Citadel.

[Rosewind]

SS2Dante wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

magnetite wrote...

Some more stuff I found:

http://img525.images...berusreaper.jpg



Looks awfully familiar, I'd say.

Hm, concept art looks like it was meant to show cerberus troops making a push andgetting massacred by reapers.

I thought, according to the art book, that there was a whole section in TIM's base that was cut (including his boss fight). This is an explanation given for the similarities in the Citadel, that it was reused assets from the original TIM base section.

Can't remebr who said it but some one said that concept art was meant to be the hall leading up to TIM's Room.

[DirtyPhoenix]

ReggarBlane wrote...

While I have my reasons for not accepting IT, I thought it fair to add that a very Renegade Shepard without surgery can actually =lose= scars after getting hit by Harby. To me, this is just another sloppy oversight sacrificed to rushed work, but for those who think otherwise, this adds validity to IT.

My renegade shep didn't lose her scars after being hit. She had pretty much maxed out on renegade scale.

[DJBare]

MaximizedAction wrote...

DJBare wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

TIM's office and the Console Level on the Citadel certaintly have similarities. Including their round architecture and the round plattform in the middle.

Within the framework of IT, adds to the idea of Shepard seeing places similar to his memories.

And the view when Shepard opens the arms "front row seats"; TIM's chair.

And a console in the front.
And how TIM crashes the party both times while coming in from behind Shepard.

If Kai Leng hadn't destroyed TIM's office there would've been some interesting possibilities for 'further' speculations...

It's funny, I missed the most outstanding thing, the visuals of the battle raging outside TIM's base, we get a similar scene when talking with the catalyst.

[Rosewind]

DJBare wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

DJBare wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

TIM's office and the Console Level on the Citadel certaintly have similarities. Including their round architecture and the round plattform in the middle.

Within the framework of IT, adds to the idea of Shepard seeing places similar to his memories.

And the view when Shepard opens the arms "front row seats"; TIM's chair.

And a console in the front.
And how TIM crashes the party both times while coming in from behind Shepard.

If Kai Leng hadn't destroyed TIM's office there would've been some interesting possibilities for 'further' speculations...

It's funny, I missed the most outstanding thing, the visuals of the battle raging outside TIM's base, we get a similar scene when talking with the catalyst.

Thats understandable be weird if you looking out and space and there is nothing there,

[Rosewind]

*Chirp Chirp*

[lex0r11]

Rosewind wrote...

*Chirp Chirp*

Did you let those in, Rose?


*fights off the swarm of crickets*


They are nibbling on our wor..

[Rosewind]

lex0r11 wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

*Chirp Chirp*

Did you let those in, Rose?


*fights off the swarm of crickets*


They are nibbling on our wor..

Sorry, I will behave next time.

[Meatus]

 I hate to be that person, but is anyone else a little uncomfortable calling the literal ending "face value"? On my first playthrough, before IT was called IT, I came to the conclusion that the ending was indoctrination based on tangible "face value" observations, like when Shepard woke up, I took that as "Oh, Shepard was unconscious on Earth that entire time," which... I can't really imagine how else we could possibly take that, unless it meant surviving re-entry, which we all know through precedence that Shepard can't survive re-entry, even had (s)he had a breather mask.

In fact, I feel as if it's less "face value" than IT. It seems more appropriate to call it Literal Theory, or Magic Theory. Then again, it's not so literal if they discredit Shepard even waking up. Perhaps it's unfair to label anyone's perception with anything, considering the ending was so vague and open-ended anyway. I wish this EC DLC would come out already, sheesh.