57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Getorex]

I like the idea that it was all a hallucination (a "Dallas" style dream? Ack!) and that it was an artsy-fartsy way to have the player experience "indoctrination". However, it is foolish if this is the case. Clearly. Being obtuse, being LSD, being inchoate is a BAD IDEA. At best only a small few will "get it" while the rest will be at a loss, left with a foul taste in their mouth, pissed off, and turned off. Bad idea in reality, nice idea IN THEORY ONLY.

In theory, practice and theory should be the same but in practice it isn't. This idea of artsy-fartsy 4-dimensional chess by Bioware is also the normal and initial response from the lost and bewildered. "Surely they didn't mean what it looked like they meant? Surely they were writing on a 'higher level' and we mere mortals have been slow to appreciate or grasp it? Surely?" I tend to Occam's razor. Rarely fails. Now they MAY have been going for a meta-experience of indoctrination (or not) for the player but, sorry, the actual mechanics of the attempt fall flat. If they are only wanting to please a fraction of a percent of the player base, then it's a win. A fraction of a percent will "get it" and appreciate it. Or Occam's Razor suggests they ****ed up.  Went for EA-style cash and ****ed the ending so they could suck more cash out of players seeking a rational ending. 

Going artsy-fartsy and "meta" is a fool's errand.  The vast majority of players are people out to play a good game and experience a good story and don't want nor expect artsy-fartsy meta-crap. They invested time and imagination and cash) in the game series and are emotionally invested in their character and their character's 'relationships'.  That all gets the porcelein throne treatment in the end.  Save the Rachni from absolute extinction?  Meh.  Save Rex and thus help bring the Krogan to a good future?  Bah.  Choose Ash?  Choose Liara?  Choose Tali?  Pffffttt!  Kill the Quarians and save the Geth?  Who cares?!  Save the Quarians and wipe the Geth?  Bupkis!  Save them both, end their silly war, and give the Quarians their homeworld back?  Pshaw!  None of that **** counts for...well ****. 

I got your "meta" right here! In my pants. Munch on that meta.

Modifié par Getorex, 13 mars 2012 - 02:13 .

[ceruleancrescent]

ReclaimedHavoc wrote...

FLYING GRENADE11 wrote...

ReclaimedHavoc wrote...

Anyone else find it disturbing the secrets are...tending...to the bodies?

You mean the keepers?

Keepers, damn.
I'm so out of it, multi tasking the hell out of everything.

The keepers have always been somewhat myserious and suspicious to me, especially after LotSB when you see the videos of the keepers doing odd things. I know they are agents of the reapers, but still...creepy keepers

[byne]

Anyone else find it interesting that the very first time we see the kid, we are first led to believe we're seeing an alliance fighter flying, only to realize things are not as they seem to be?

I know its a stretch but I just started a new game and found it interesting.

[BlackDragonBane]

Rompa87-2 wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

Rompa87-2 wrote...

Quick question: I never used one of the other armor suits (eg. Cerberus armor, Dragon Armor etc.) in my game. Does the broken armor shepard wear in the end change accordingly, or is it the N7 armor no matter what?

No, the destroyed armor defaults to the N7, though given the damage and the build similarities of the sets in the game, it can easily be written off as the heat of the laser scarred and melted the armor beyond any real recognition.

Yet my Shepard came out of the beam without the expected third degree burns that would most likely have been inflicted if her armor basically metled of her.

You think you can get away with those details, BioWare?! I see right through you!

I thought that odd too Shepard wasn't covered in borns, just bleeding in a few places. at least the armor wasn't completely blown off. The prospect of running into the Conduit naked with a god-pistol is just unsettling.

[Saint Op]

@Auresta
Thanks for a better answer then I had...
This thread is a blast to read though & really gets you thinking. No definite answers is good for people that are hopeing for more.

[ReclaimedHavoc]

Dougremer wrote...

ReclaimedHavoc wrote...

Dougremer wrote...

Martukis wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Also, another reason this could be Shepard hallucinating/indoctrinated is that during the scene with Anderson and The Illusive Man, they behave as if they are the devil and angel on your shoulder - One is in favour of control while the other favours destroy. When the God Child gives you your options you see the image of The Illusive Man trying to control the Reapers and Anderson trying to destroy them, both of them representing the two sides of Shepards subconcious. This seems highly suggestive of it all being in Shepards head.

I thought so too - and sometimes it seems like what they're saying might be to Shep, not each other, imo.

Yeah, and just looke how strange Anderson is behaving. And when TIM gets more "power" Shepard shoots Anderson.

What are the conditions that force you into shooting Anderson? I didn't shoot him.

Don't know, when TIM did something with his fist (biotics i guess) a shot was fired from my gun. I think, haha, need to check that again

/D

TIM did that red shock thing, but I never shot Anderson. He just collapsed, and just died after the talk.

[FLYING GRENADE11]

ReclaimedHavoc wrote...

FLYING GRENADE11 wrote...

ReclaimedHavoc wrote...

Anyone else find it disturbing the secrets are...tending...to the bodies?

You mean the keepers?

Keepers, damn.
I'm so out of it, multi tasking the hell out of everything.

Well the way they acted it seems they were working on the terminals but none were there.

[VironZ]

What was the point of the Shadow Broker videos in ME:2....

What was with Keeper 20?
What happened to Aria after Purgatory?
Why is your LI totally 'laxed about being stranded in random world after admitting deep love?
Why doesn't Harbringer do anything in the game?
Who the hell is Major Coates?
What happens to Hackett?

So much for closure, would have been nice for the game to end with you and your LI getting married or something like that, they should have got the BioShock writers to do the last ten minutes of the game... damn... BioShock 1 ending had me choking

[ReclaimedHavoc]

ceruleancrescent wrote...

ReclaimedHavoc wrote...

FLYING GRENADE11 wrote...

ReclaimedHavoc wrote...

Anyone else find it disturbing the secrets are...tending...to the bodies?

You mean the keepers?

Keepers, damn.
I'm so out of it, multi tasking the hell out of everything.

The keepers have always been somewhat myserious and suspicious to me, especially after LotSB when you see the videos of the keepers doing odd things. I know they are agents of the reapers, but still...creepy keepers

Wasn't one of those vids a keeper walking past a dead body?

[Sl4sh3r]

Tony_Knightcrawler wrote...

xDarkspace wrote...

xDarkspace wrote...

FrostByte-GER wrote...

Also...has anybody noticed, that the godchild says "wake up" only on high ems scores? I heared in my ending(3000ems) "Why are you here" there was no "wake up". Now I watched the best ending on YT. The child says "wake up".

But now, watch this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlyGL9Cqsxw#t=08m40s
And compare it with this vid:

Heared it? Another proof for the indoctrination theory!!!

When catalyst says wake up i can hear talis voice saying wake up behind it.

Wow, you're totally right. I wonder if there are 7 or more voice files for "wake up!" I wonder if you'd hear anything if you romanced Thane, or if MIranda died if you romanced her, etc etc..

Sounds more like an echo to me, but I could be wrong!

[ReclaimedHavoc]

VironZ wrote...

What was the point of the Shadow Broker videos in ME:2....

What was with Keeper 20?
What happened to Aria after Purgatory?
Why is your LI totally 'laxed about being stranded in random world after admitting deep love?
Why doesn't Harbringer do anything in the game?
Who the hell is Major Coates?
What happens to Hackett?

So much for closure, would have been nice for the game to end with you and your LI getting married or something like that, they should have got the BioShock writers to do the last ten minutes of the game... damn... BioShock 1 ending had me choking

I was expecting Ash to tell me she was pregnant or something, even more so after listening to the extended Anderson conversation. I really hope that is brought back with endings.

[Auresta]

Going to go to a meeting and finally study.. if anyone wants to ask a specific question, I'm offering myself open to private messages because 1. I've been following this thread since Saturday (and since it has grown at least 170 pages) and 2. I have my head wrapped around a bunch of things and 3. sometimes your questions will get buried!

[panamakira]

BlackDragonBane wrote...

Rompa87-2 wrote...

Quick question: I never used one of the other armor suits (eg. Cerberus armor, Dragon Armor etc.) in my game. Does the broken armor shepard wear in the end change accordingly, or is it the N7 armor no matter what?

No, the destroyed armor defaults to the N7, though given the damage and the build similarities of the sets in the game, it can easily be written off as the heat of the laser scarred and melted the armor beyond any real recognition.

1) Wearing the Collector's Armor well that's pretty distinguishable. 2) Dragon Armor also looks pretty different. Specially those shoulder pads....I don't know....

[novaseeker]

BlackDragonBane wrote...

The EMS score's role in this determines not only Shepard's available options, Catalyst's responses, or the outcome, but also the possible impact Shepard's hallucinated choice will have in the finale. Low EMS likely results in failure no matter which decision you chose. Your forces will be overwhelmed and destroyed by the Reapers and the cycle will continue.

However, with high EMS, these could be possible variants to the outcome.

Destroy: Shepard awakens and finds themselves buried under rubble, but alive. Harbinger is still twarting all attempts to reach the Conduit. With Shepard still alive, the resistence keeps fighting and make it to the Conduit and onto the Citadel to activate the Crucible and destroy the Reapers once and for all

Control: Shepard's very being and conciousness is absorbed by Catalyst and becomes a part of the Reaper control VI program, turning Shepard into a sleeper agent for the Reapers. He/she either awakens or dead body is found and taken by Reaper troops to be repurposed to being their next Vanguard.

Synthesis: Shepard's DNA and conciousness becomes apart of the Reapers, giving them a better understanding of humanity's tenacious will power. Either Shepard dies or becomes one of the Reapers themselves, carrying out the destruction of his own people and allies. That or you get the same sleeper agent ending as Control.

The ending possiblities are just my ideas of what could happen given the circumstances. Given that the titles for each option speak for themselves about the possible outcomes of the choices, it's wouldn't be too far off.

Thanks for all of your thoughtful posts here, by the way.

Just wanted to say that if you have "middling" EMS you still avoid a "bad" ending (i.e., Earth is not destroyed if you choose destroy), but you don't have Shepard breathe at the very end (my EMS was right around 3000 and I destroyed the Reapers, but not BigBen or my soldiers, and no cutscene of Earth being scorched as there is in "low" EMS endings).  I'm not sure what this means for story continuity. It seems doubtful to me that a DLC ending would only apply to 5000 EMS players, although that is possible .... not likely.

[VironZ]

Yeah and your LI kinda hints of being pregnant

[smah]

ReclaimedHavoc wrote...

Dougremer wrote...

ReclaimedHavoc wrote...

Dougremer wrote...

Martukis wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Also, another reason this could be Shepard hallucinating/indoctrinated is that during the scene with Anderson and The Illusive Man, they behave as if they are the devil and angel on your shoulder - One is in favour of control while the other favours destroy. When the God Child gives you your options you see the image of The Illusive Man trying to control the Reapers and Anderson trying to destroy them, both of them representing the two sides of Shepards subconcious. This seems highly suggestive of it all being in Shepards head.

I thought so too - and sometimes it seems like what they're saying might be to Shep, not each other, imo.

Yeah, and just looke how strange Anderson is behaving. And when TIM gets more "power" Shepard shoots Anderson.

What are the conditions that force you into shooting Anderson? I didn't shoot him.

Don't know, when TIM did something with his fist (biotics i guess) a shot was fired from my gun. I think, haha, need to check that again

/D

TIM did that red shock thing, but I never shot Anderson. He just collapsed, and just died after the talk.

I'm sorry, but I'm greatly resisting the urge to call you "dense" right now. The "biotics" use is TIM falunting his new powers of control granted by the reaper inplants. When he does this, he control you, causing u to fire a shot which hits Anderson. He then dies from this wound after the talk.

[v0rt3x22]

As stated in my review (social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9837136) - I believe the very last 10 minutes of the game are Shepard actually being indoctrinated - and a fabrication of the Reapers - in order to keep him in check.

[lookingglassmind]

Guys, another thing in favour of a possible indoctrination device on the Normandy:

I just started a new game. You have one cutscene where you're on the Normandy in the beginning, with Kaidan and James before going to Mars. The next time you're aboard the Normandy is after the stuff at the Citadel with trying to convince the Council to help you, and they send you to Palaven. But before you can interact with the Normandy environment as the player, you have to return to the ship from the docking bay. This triggers a cutscene -- your first dream with the Catalyst. Then you wake up, and begin your tour with Traynor.

It's a small thing, and probably kind of reaching for things that aren't there, but still.

I like it.

[Bippity Boop Boop]

Sooooo we pay money for a fraction of a game? Again? Just like in Mass Effect 2? Nickle and dime your customers seems to be the trend.

[Catreina-JTV]

VironZ wrote...

The ending should have been; Ghost kid warns of reaper destruction and what lies ahead, catalyst choice that only kills Reapers, happy ending cameos, shows you and your LI living happy ever after with kids and what not, depending on your choices in the game, shows how other characters have got on; Jacob with his wife, Jack being a teacher, Miranda and her sister all that ****, cameos of how the other planets are doing including Palaven, Thessia etc.

And the galaxy went on happily ever after.... after nearly being wiped out completely like has happened for so many millions of years....


yeah - no.  **** "happy go lucky" endings bro. Not going to happen, ever, in the ME universe.

[BlackDragonBane]

novaseeker wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

The EMS score's role in this determines not only Shepard's available options, Catalyst's responses, or the outcome, but also the possible impact Shepard's hallucinated choice will have in the finale. Low EMS likely results in failure no matter which decision you chose. Your forces will be overwhelmed and destroyed by the Reapers and the cycle will continue.

However, with high EMS, these could be possible variants to the outcome.

Destroy: Shepard awakens and finds themselves buried under rubble, but alive. Harbinger is still twarting all attempts to reach the Conduit. With Shepard still alive, the resistence keeps fighting and make it to the Conduit and onto the Citadel to activate the Crucible and destroy the Reapers once and for all

Control: Shepard's very being and conciousness is absorbed by Catalyst and becomes a part of the Reaper control VI program, turning Shepard into a sleeper agent for the Reapers. He/she either awakens or dead body is found and taken by Reaper troops to be repurposed to being their next Vanguard.

Synthesis: Shepard's DNA and conciousness becomes apart of the Reapers, giving them a better understanding of humanity's tenacious will power. Either Shepard dies or becomes one of the Reapers themselves, carrying out the destruction of his own people and allies. That or you get the same sleeper agent ending as Control.

The ending possiblities are just my ideas of what could happen given the circumstances. Given that the titles for each option speak for themselves about the possible outcomes of the choices, it's wouldn't be too far off.

Thanks for all of your thoughtful posts here, by the way.

Just wanted to say that if you have "middling" EMS you still avoid a "bad" ending (i.e., Earth is not destroyed if you choose destroy), but you don't have Shepard breathe at the very end (my EMS was right around 3000 and I destroyed the Reapers, but not BigBen or my soldiers, and no cutscene of Earth being scorched as there is in "low" EMS endings).  I'm not sure what this means for story continuity. It seems doubtful to me that a DLC ending would only apply to 5000 EMS players, although that is possible .... not likely.

Thanks. Glad to know some of my craziness isn't being completely lost

Modifié par BlackDragonBane, 13 mars 2012 - 02:14 .

[TcomJ]

lil_89 wrote...

Golferguy758 wrote...

TcomJ wrote...

lil_89 wrote...

TcomJ wrote...

I know how bad and disappointing it is, but don't run away from the fact that it is a bad writing.

It's like you read Harry Potter, 7 of them, and then JK Rowling tells you at the end of the last paragraph that this is all just a dream LOL

No, it is actually like Voldemort was in Harry's mind, and made him believe Sirius was in danger to lure him to the ministry of magic, so yeah, J.K Rowling totally used the same effect to create a twist, and it was awesome. Check your facts before comparing

Oh my god, it's a freaking analogy and it's for the ending!!!! The point is it's a freaking lazy ass bad written ending.

And you are the one that has to get the fact right because that didn't happen in the last 2 min or the last paragraph of the book, did it? -"-

the ending was like "The wand refused to kill the one to whom it had allegiance, further
protecting Harry. During the duel, Harry refuses to use the killing
curse and even encourages Voldemort to feel remorse, one known way to
restore Voldemort's shattered soul. Voldemort dies when his own killing
curse backfires; he and his Death Eaters are finally defeated. The wizarding world is able to live in peace once more."

....If I were to add "sorry, suck to be you, this is all just a dream hahaaa~~~" to that last page.... it will give the same outrage of the fan effect as well duh

Except the "ending" wasn't the actual ending. If you actually read the thread you'd know that by now.

Yes, read the damn thread, and also the theory only covers the last "weird" part not the whole trilogy, so NO it would not be the same thing as the last paragraph saying "this was all a dream" in ANY book. Nice quote from wikipedia btw

Exactly, you seem to understand that. What writer would do that may I ask? Doing this ending for an excuse of DLC endings... really

Modifié par TcomJ, 13 mars 2012 - 02:16 .

[Ecmoose]

VironZ wrote...

What was the point of the Shadow Broker videos in ME:2....

What was with Keeper 20?
What happened to Aria after Purgatory?
Why is your LI totally 'laxed about being stranded in random world after admitting deep love?
Why doesn't Harbringer do anything in the game?
Who the hell is Major Coates?
What happens to Hackett?

So much for closure, would have been nice for the game to end with you and your LI getting married or something like that, they should have got the BioShock writers to do the last ten minutes of the game... damn... BioShock 1 ending had me choking

Major Coates is a Major in the Alliance who comes from the UK. Why do we need to know more about him? We see him when we land on Earth, he's clearly a soldier. Do we have to know the whole backstory of every NPC ever?

[ceruleancrescent]

ReclaimedHavoc wrote...

ceruleancrescent wrote...

ReclaimedHavoc wrote...

FLYING GRENADE11 wrote...

ReclaimedHavoc wrote...

Anyone else find it disturbing the secrets are...tending...to the bodies?

You mean the keepers?

Keepers, damn.
I'm so out of it, multi tasking the hell out of everything.

The keepers have always been somewhat myserious and suspicious to me, especially after LotSB when you see the videos of the keepers doing odd things. I know they are agents of the reapers, but still...creepy keepers

Wasn't one of those vids a keeper walking past a dead body?

Yes