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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#6226
Prince Keldar

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MissMaster_2 wrote...

yagaelvin wrote...

So LONG time lurker here at BSN ever since ME2 came out and wandered by wanting to know how to survive the suicide mission.  This thread finally made me decide to post for the first time.

Anyway, there's a lot to say about this thread.  The more I read it the more fascinated it becomes considering I too hated the ending while I loved the rest of the game.  Personally though I only think two things come to mind that we can consider

1.  While all the "evidence" we have is impressive, it's still purely speculation no matter how much we try to spin it.  We have no real definitive proof one way or the other in what the ending is.  That's why the argument could really go either way that the ending was actually a "dream" or just really bad writing.  Always keep that in mind.

2. With that being said, the ONLY thing we know for certain is that Bioware is holding something back.  That's from the various tweets that they've posted in the last week or so (btw if anyone can compile them all in one post would be great) where mostly everyone has said something to the effect of "we can't comment on that yet".  The only exception I think was Mike Gamble(?) who tweeted about "If we only knew what we had planned".  Now that could mean anything from ending DLC (free or not) to anything else involving ME3.

So honestly, while the "evidence" we have is great and everything the only REAL thing that is giving me hope is the fact that no one at Bioware has said anything definitive one way or the other about this besides "No comment"  more or less.  And you know what they say when you can neither confirm nor deny something....


The evidence is that there are missing dialog that is alreay in the game code and that all BW has to do is send out a patch to unlock it.


maybe like the prothean dlc??  It was there but supposedly incomplete so they left it out to complete it fully before releasing it.  STOP IT!!!  I AM GETTING MY HOPES UP AGAIN!!!!!!!

#6227
G0thicRhino

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BlackDragonBane wrote...

G0thicRhino wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

"-The child does not actually exist. He is an attempt to indoctrinate Shepard. Nobody but Shepard ever sees or interacts with the child.

-When Anderson calls for Shepard at the beginning of the game, when Shepard is talking to the child, Shepard turns back and the child is gone. Shepard has been "snapped out of it".

-When Shepard turns towards Anderson after being "snapped out of it", a growl is heard. In the third novel, when Greyson resisted the reapers they would make a growling noise once they realized they didn't have him under complete control. "


Found this on a blog. Its exactly what happens in the game. Its indoctrination.


I didn't notice that my first or second go, you're totally right on the growl! Nice catch! =]


I have a hard time believing this one because there is a Reaper about twenty or so meters away from the building and is constantly making Reaper sounds. I think the 'growl' for that instant was more a coincidence.

But if it turns out right, then I'll put my foot in my mouth and eat my shoe.


Of course it could be totally coincidence. At the same time it could be a bone thrown to the readers of the books for a very subtle foreshadowing attempt. 

#6228
SavageLycan

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ReclaimedHavoc wrote...
Did Shepard ever mention the kid? I mean, they ask what is bothering Shepard so much, are we all sure that the kid never gets mentioned once?


I heard mine mention it to Garrus once, but it was a paragon line. He may not say if he's a renegade. 

#6229
yagaelvin

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MissMaster_2 wrote...


The evidence is that there are missing dialog that is alreay in the game code and that all BW has to do is send out a patch to unlock it.


I've only heard a few bits and it could be just unused dialogue.  Remember how much unused dialogue ME2 had.....

#6230
Fattness132

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[/quote]
Did Shepard ever mention the kid? I mean, they ask what is bothering Shepard so much, are we all sure that the kid never gets mentioned once?
[/quote]

He mentions it to garrus after palavin i think?

Modifié par Fattness132, 13 mars 2012 - 03:35 .


#6231
iwillkillfortali

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ReclaimedHavoc wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

I think maybe the kid was real to begin with, you do see him playing with a toy normandy in the first scene, also there's a picture of the missing kid on the memorial wall in the holding docks. Someone said you can see the kid running into the room before it explodes, is that true?


No one but Shepard ever interacts with the child. There is no evidence that anyone sees that photo except Shepard.


That's true. the picture could be a red herring to make you think that the kid is real or something. This whole thing certainly gives you a lot to think about doesn't it!

I guess the fact that all the way through the game your team mates make comments about Shepards mental state definitely suggests that everything is starting to take its toll on him/her.

Did Shepard ever mention the kid? I mean, they ask what is bothering Shepard so much, are we all sure that the kid never gets mentioned once?


He said it once to garrus.

#6232
Karait

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It's funny how people who support the indoctrination theory are happy to ignore the question of why on low EMS there's only the option to destroy Reapers. Hell of trickery on their side to only give Shep the option to blow them up.

Also, how come Star gazer shows up even if Earth is oblitarated by low EMS' space magic? There clearly is a regular Earth tree out there, but Earth is no more.

As much as I'd like to see some sort of follow-up to current ending, I'm under no illusion that all those holes which enthusiasts consider messages which support Indoctrination Theory are simply shabby, lazy writing from people doing their 9 to 5 jobs.

Modifié par Karait, 13 mars 2012 - 03:36 .


#6233
krystalevenstar

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ReclaimedHavoc wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

I think maybe the kid was real to begin with, you do see him playing with a toy normandy in the first scene, also there's a picture of the missing kid on the memorial wall in the holding docks. Someone said you can see the kid running into the room before it explodes, is that true?


No one but Shepard ever interacts with the child. There is no evidence that anyone sees that photo except Shepard.


That's true. the picture could be a red herring to make you think that the kid is real or something. This whole thing certainly gives you a lot to think about doesn't it!

I guess the fact that all the way through the game your team mates make comments about Shepards mental state definitely suggests that everything is starting to take its toll on him/her.

Did Shepard ever mention the kid? I mean, they ask what is bothering Shepard so much, are we all sure that the kid never gets mentioned once?


I think I mention it to Liara who basically goes, "Can't save everyone, move on"

#6234
Sl4sh3r

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Karait wrote...

It's funny how people who support the indoctrination theory are happy to ignore the question of why with on low EMS there's only the option to destroy Reapers. Hell of trickery on their side to only give Shep the option to blow them up.

Also, how come Star gazer shows up even if Earth is oblitarated by low EMS' space magic? There clearly is a regular Earth tree out there, but Earth is no more.

As much as I'd like to see some sort of follow-up to current ending, I'm under no illusion that all those holes which enthusiasts consider messages which support Indoctrination Theory are simply shabby, lazy writing from people doing their 9 to 5 jobs.


Show me proof of the "only destroy the reapers" option.

#6235
CaptnObvious

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My name's Admiral Hackett, and I... don't have much power, so I'm going to ask Commander Shepard to have a look at this thread.
There. I approve of my decision.

On a none joking note, it saddens me that you people have more faith in the Mass Effect lores, and more knowledge of it, then the writing team who finished writing ME3.

#6236
ReclaimedHavoc

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iwillkillfortali wrote...

ReclaimedHavoc wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

I think maybe the kid was real to begin with, you do see him playing with a toy normandy in the first scene, also there's a picture of the missing kid on the memorial wall in the holding docks. Someone said you can see the kid running into the room before it explodes, is that true?


No one but Shepard ever interacts with the child. There is no evidence that anyone sees that photo except Shepard.


That's true. the picture could be a red herring to make you think that the kid is real or something. This whole thing certainly gives you a lot to think about doesn't it!

I guess the fact that all the way through the game your team mates make comments about Shepards mental state definitely suggests that everything is starting to take its toll on him/her.

Did Shepard ever mention the kid? I mean, they ask what is bothering Shepard so much, are we all sure that the kid never gets mentioned once?


He said it once to garrus.

I knew he mentioned it, but I guess that's not proof, because Garrus couldn't say if that kid existed. Only James, Ash, or Anderson could confirm that one.

#6237
MissMaster_2

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yagaelvin wrote...

MissMaster_2 wrote...


The evidence is that there are missing dialog that is alreay in the game code and that all BW has to do is send out a patch to unlock it.


I've only heard a few bits and it could be just unused dialogue.  Remember how much unused dialogue ME2 had.....




Yeah but none of that changed the story line. Unlike the unused dialogue of Joker in ME3....that changes the ending of the game...

#6238
Leafs43

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My idea how a hallucination ending would play out assuming Shepherd wakes up. It's very rough, the dialog is probably shoddy, but the idea of what you are doing is what is important:


This is just my first draft in my idea how the indoctrination could work.
Foggy voice: ..pherd

Foggy voice: ….Shepherd…

Hacket: SHEPHERD!?!



<Shepherd wakes up woozy>



Hackett: SHEPHERD!?!

Shepherd: Shepherd here….I’m alright

<Shepherd coughs>

Hackett: What
happened down there? Our readings show that mostly everyone was wiped out.

Shepherd: How long have you been trying to hail me, sir?

Hackett: Maybe only 20 seconds since that beam hit near your
vicinity.

Shepherd: Harbinger is down here pounding us. Hard to see,but I don’t really see any of our forces. I don’t think anyone made it to the conduit.



<squad members start to regain consciousness and dust off
rubble >



Shepherd: Hackett, there’ssomething I think I figured out.

Hackett: What’s that,Shepherd?

Shepherd: It’s hard to explain, but I could fell, err well I felt something.

Hackett: It doesn’t look like you have a lot of time to explain that. Harbinger looks to have been distracted at some of our other forces to the east, but he looks like he is turning back his attention to you.

Sheperd: Well, sir, I need you to believe me when I say I have to enter the conduit. The citadel….the citadel is the answer afterall.

<squad mates gather around Shepherd>

Hackett: Alright son, We will try and buy you some time. Get to that conduit.

<Harbinger turns back to Shepherd and crew starts charging his laser>

Shepherd: RUN!

<Harbinger takes an artillery volley to the side, the laser hits well behind Shepherd and company>

<Shepherd and company reach the conduit and are immediately ported to the Citadel>

<Shepherd and company arrive in a room all too similar to where he just was before waking up. But there are no bodies>

Garrus: Shepherd, tell us what the hell is going on.

<Husks start to appear>

Shepherd: No time.

<Husk battle ensues in the long corridor>

<The squad reaches the big room, but it looks different. The middle beam is still present, but to
either side are panels>

<Shepherd closes the doors with more husks reappearing behind them, sealing off the room>

Garrus: Alright Shepherd, we have a minute, tell us what is going on.

Shepherd: How did thecitadel reach Earth?

Ashley: Giant tug boat ships?

Shepherd: No, the citadel has a hidden propulsion system and we just found its control room.

EDI: Shepherd appears to be correct.

Shepherd: But that is not all I suspect. When I was out cold I had a vision, that the citadel is the source of the Reapers power.

Tali: How is that possible?

Garrus: Well the Reapers did say they built the Citadel.

<Husks battering the door>

Ashley: So what are we going to do, blow up the citadel? Remember the citadel is one giant relay, and you remember what happened the last time we blew up one of those right? And sitting in Earth’s orbit….it would kill everybody….

Shepherd: Edi, I need you to interface with the citadel, I think from the left panel there. We need to move the citadel, we don’t have much time.

<Husks battering the door gets louder>

Garrus: Sheperd, I’m with you but whats going to be the plan?

Shepherd: You’ll see…but in the mean time those husks are going to break down the door any second, and it sounds like an army of them…

<Door starts to bend under the relentless force>

Shepherd: Alright, we need 3 groups, one to cover our right flank, one to cover our left and one here in the middle.

<Select right flank squad, 2 members>

<Select left flank squad, 2 members>

<Shepherd remaining members cover middle>

<Edi interfacing with the Citadel>

<Door bursts open>

<Most epic husk battle ensues including Krogan, Drell and even Hanar husks, entirely scripted event that forces you to switch between squads>

<Kill off the husk army that pushes you to your limits>

Edi: Shepherd, I have interfaced with the Citadel. I even found an underlying weapons system not previously found in citadel archives, which is now accessible on the council…..I see the Reaper code, it’s….perfect….it runs through the entire citadel….

Shepherd: Edi no time, can you access the crucible’s and citadel’s power cores?

Edi: I see where you are going with this Shepherd.

Tali: But Sheperd…won’t you kill everyone?

Shepherd: No, we send the citadel where no one gets harmed

Ashley: Where in the galaxy is that….? The citadel is 100 times the size of the relay that killed all those Batarians…

Sheperd: I’m not thinking in this galaxy…we send it back to where those Reaper bastards came from

Garrus: Dark space…?

Vega: I knew calling you Loco was the right name.

Sheperd: Edi, set the timer for 30 minutes, that should give us plenty of time to evacuate and enough travel time for the citadel to reach dark space.

Edi: Alright, Citadel and Crucible eezo cores set to erupt in 30 minutes, Shepherd. The explosion should be enough to wipe out the entire citadel.

Liara: We need to get out of here.

Sheperd: Alright folks, let’s get out of here

<Team falls back to the conduit point and one by one are
transported back to Earth>

<All the team except Sheperd and his love interest have
been ported back to the surface>

Mysterious but recognizable voice: SSSSHEEPERDDD!

<The dome retracts and Harbinger is floating above>

<Shepherd turns to his love interest>

Shepherd: Get out of here, this is something I have to take care of.

Love Interest: We have come so far, I can’t lose you now

Sheperd: You won’t, now go!

<Love interest reluctantly enters the conduit>

<Shepherd turns around to face Harbinger>

Harbinger: Shepherd, you resisted me. I gave you the chance at salvation! To immortality! To deity!

Shepherd: Alright you bastard…..this is it for once and all. I am going to send you are your mechanical asses to hell.

Harbinger: You cannot win Shepherd. I know your plan. I will crush you like the insect you are are retake the citadel.

<Shepherd puts on his helmet just as Harbinger uses his laser to blow open the giant room. Shepherd holds on to railing as the room depresuurizes>

<The entire citadel shakes causing parts of the citadel to fall>

<a 25 minute timer starts and a one on one fight between Harbinger and Shepherd begins. Shepherd has to evade Harbinger lasers that destroy cover. New cover is provided by rubble that falls. Sheperd has to do enough damage to Harbingers “eye” so Harbinger covers up, which leaves enough time for Shepherd to activate Citadel weapons. Citadel weapons have to recharge because all power is being diverted to the eezo cores. It takes multiple shots from Citadel weapons to finally defeat Harbinger>

<Harbinger, now riddled with holes, takes one more shot from the citadel and slumps down and lands 10 feet from Shepherd>

Harbinger: Why could you have not taken our salvation Shepherd? You have doomed everyone!

Shepherd (Paragon option): Because it was not your salvation to give. Organics decide for themselves.

Shepherd(Renegade option): Because you wandered into the wrong organic you squid bastard. <Sheperd spits on Harbinger>



<The timer is ticking the entire time and you have to find a shuttle before the timer reaches zero. If timer reaches zero, Sheperd gets blown up with the citadel in dark space. So you have to be fast in your fight with Harbinger. If you make it in time, you jettison out into hyperspace and get to watch the citadel explode in glorious fashion>



Ships Navi-computer: Nearest mass relay sir is 98797987 kmaway. Do you wish to plot a course?

Shepherd: Take me home. Take me to Earth.

<Queue epilogue and credits>

Modifié par Leafs43, 13 mars 2012 - 03:40 .


#6239
Rahabzu

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17m
Trevor Ruth ‏ @TrutHofGaminG · Open

@ALaggyHost @masseffect I wonder if there is anyone out there who actually understood & liked the #ME3 Ending along with me. @bioware
Mass Effect ‏ @masseffect Close

@truthofgaming You're one in a few. You should wear that as a badge of honor. You go against mainstream concerns. )


"Really is Bioware gonna act like their ending is acceptable?"

#6240
ceruleancrescent

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G0thicRhino wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

G0thicRhino wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

"-The child does not actually exist. He is an attempt to indoctrinate Shepard. Nobody but Shepard ever sees or interacts with the child.

-When Anderson calls for Shepard at the beginning of the game, when Shepard is talking to the child, Shepard turns back and the child is gone. Shepard has been "snapped out of it".

-When Shepard turns towards Anderson after being "snapped out of it", a growl is heard. In the third novel, when Greyson resisted the reapers they would make a growling noise once they realized they didn't have him under complete control. "


Found this on a blog. Its exactly what happens in the game. Its indoctrination.


I didn't notice that my first or second go, you're totally right on the growl! Nice catch! =]


I have a hard time believing this one because there is a Reaper about twenty or so meters away from the building and is constantly making Reaper sounds. I think the 'growl' for that instant was more a coincidence.

But if it turns out right, then I'll put my foot in my mouth and eat my shoe.


Of course it could be totally coincidence. At the same time it could be a bone thrown to the readers of the books for a very subtle foreshadowing attempt. 


i never heard another reaper noise that was close to being a growl as in the scene with the child. There's a lot of machinery sounds, loud booming and explosions noises, but not a growl like sound like that. 
Or it's a complete coincidence.

#6241
Tallis Lucienis

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Karait wrote...

It's funny how people who support the indoctrination theory are happy to ignore the question of why on low EMS there's only the option to destroy Reapers. Hell of trickery on their side to only give Shep the option to blow them up.

Also, how come Star gazer shows up even if Earth is oblitarated by low EMS' space magic? There clearly is a regular Earth tree out there, but Earth is no more.

As much as I'd like to see some sort of follow-up to current ending, I'm under no illusion that all those holes which enthusiasts consider messages which support Indoctrination Theory are simply shabby, lazy writing from people doing their 9 to 5 jobs.


Because BioWare wants to make you believe the more War Assests, the better the ending will be. The War does no ride on the shoulders of the soldiers you bring into it, it rides upon that of the leader that leads it. The end result in Shepards and Shepard's alone. It is a attempt to make us believe the two other options are the result of the more soldiers. The Reapers can be defeated by one man: Shepard. 

#6242
xDarkspace

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Karait wrote...

It's funny how people who support the indoctrination theory are happy to ignore the question of why with on low EMS there's only the option to destroy Reapers. Hell of trickery on their side to only give Shep the option to blow them up.

Also, how come Star gazer shows up even if Earth is oblitarated by low EMS' space magic? There clearly is a regular Earth tree out there, but Earth is no more.

As much as I'd like to see some sort of follow-up to current ending, I'm under no illusion that all those holes which enthusiasts consider messages which support Indoctrination Theory are simply shabby, lazy writing from people doing their 9 to 5 jobs.


if you have a low ems the military cant hold the reapers so the dreaming shepard dies.

and that stargazer is like billion of years in the future or sheps dreaming it and there could be oher planets with trees on them there one in real life but its 2 far away to get to it would take like 40 thousand year with the ****ty space ships we have.

#6243
BlackDragonBane

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Karait wrote...

It's funny how people who support the indoctrination theory are happy to ignore the question of why on low EMS there's only the option to destroy Reapers. Hell of trickery on their side to only give Shep the option to blow them up.

Also, how come Star gazer shows up even if Earth is oblitarated by low EMS' space magic? There clearly is a regular Earth tree out there, but Earth is no more.

As much as I'd like to see some sort of follow-up to current ending, I'm under no illusion that all those holes which enthusiasts consider messages which support Indoctrination Theory are simply shabby, lazy writing from people doing their 9 to 5 jobs.


I actually made a post several pages back that could explain that varying EMS levels not only leave certain options open, but determine the effect of your choice. If you have a bare minimum EMS and only have the Destroy option, the Reaper is basically giving you the illusion of hope, knowing you don't have the forces to fight possibly defeat the Reapers. Plus, you don't get the secret 'breathing' part of the ending if your EMS doesn't meet the requirements.

The higher the EMS, the more afraid the Reaper is of you possibly succeeding in destroying them, so it opens up more options and attempts to steer you away from choosing Destroy.

#6244
camcon2100

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Rahabzu wrote...

( Reply Retweet Favorite
17m
Trevor Ruth ‏ @TrutHofGaminG · Open

@ALaggyHost @masseffect I wonder if there is anyone out there who actually understood & liked the #ME3 Ending along with me. @bioware
Mass Effect ‏ @masseffect Close

@truthofgaming You're one in a few. You should wear that as a badge of honor. You go against mainstream concerns. )


"Really is Bioware gonna act like their ending is acceptable?"

How many times you gunna post that. 

#6245
yagaelvin

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MissMaster_2 wrote...

yagaelvin wrote...

MissMaster_2 wrote...


The evidence is that there are missing dialog that is alreay in the game code and that all BW has to do is send out a patch to unlock it.


I've only heard a few bits and it could be just unused dialogue.  Remember how much unused dialogue ME2 had.....




Yeah but none of that changed the story line. Unlike the unused dialogue of Joker in ME3....that changes the ending of the game...


OK, dont know that one.   Color me intrigued.  Got a link to said dialogue? 

#6246
ReclaimedHavoc

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Rahabzu wrote...

( Reply Retweet Favorite
17m
Trevor Ruth ‏ @TrutHofGaminG · Open

@ALaggyHost @masseffect I wonder if there is anyone out there who actually understood & liked the #ME3 Ending along with me. @bioware
Mass Effect ‏ @masseffect Close

@truthofgaming You're one in a few. You should wear that as a badge of honor. You go against mainstream concerns. )


"Really is Bioware gonna act like their ending is acceptable?"

Eh...That's just dumb.

#6247
Shunt Mcblunt

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I am sure Omega DLC will be the End of TIM and only if Shepard survived. I feel something needed for the Crucible is missing and only TIM has it on Omega. There was a reason he took it. There will be a final battle with it.

Anyone remember SG-1? The ending went straight to DVD.

PS: The reason higher GoW is needed to live, they need to come pull your ass out of area. Higher War asset distract the Reapers so they cant go in for the kill. Allowing you to be rescued.

Modifié par Shunt Mcblunt, 13 mars 2012 - 03:46 .


#6248
Golferguy758

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krystalevenstar wrote...

The reoccurring theme of this thread is "I thought you were all bonkers, but then I read the thread..." XD


Actually it's more like: 

Majority of naysayers (notable exceptions somebug and jasontan they provide valid counter points): Bioware is teh dummyheads and you all are drinking the dumb dumb juice. And you are wrong!

Conspiracy people: Please provide us evidence that backs up your claims.

naysayers: STUPID HEADS!

Conspiracy people: Okay, moving on. 

#6249
LolaLei

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ReclaimedHavoc wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

I think maybe the kid was real to begin with, you do see him playing with a toy normandy in the first scene, also there's a picture of the missing kid on the memorial wall in the holding docks. Someone said you can see the kid running into the room before it explodes, is that true?


No one but Shepard ever interacts with the child. There is no evidence that anyone sees that photo except Shepard.


That's true. the picture could be a red herring to make you think that the kid is real or something. This whole thing certainly gives you a lot to think about doesn't it!

I guess the fact that all the way through the game your team mates make comments about Shepards mental state definitely suggests that everything is starting to take its toll on him/her.

Did Shepard ever mention the kid? I mean, they ask what is bothering Shepard so much, are we all sure that the kid never gets mentioned once?


Shepard mentions the kid getting blown up once to one of her crew mates (I can't remember which one) saying how it didn't seem fair that the kid and thousands of others have died and Shepard lives.

#6250
MissMaster_2

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Rahabzu wrote...

( Reply Retweet Favorite
17m
Trevor Ruth ‏ @TrutHofGaminG · Open

@ALaggyHost @masseffect I wonder if there is anyone out there who actually understood & liked the #ME3 Ending along with me. @bioware
Mass Effect ‏ @masseffect Close

@truthofgaming You're one in a few. You should wear that as a badge of honor. You go against mainstream concerns. )


"Really is Bioware gonna act like their ending is acceptable?"

*shrug* this person might know what we know.