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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#6551
DarkSeraphym

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Rahabzu wrote...

Yeah seeing those pictures now I feel horrible about picking control.  I really didn't notice how drastic it looked on my custom shepard, look like he was turning into dust but that's just total huskified right there.


I'm not convinced that Shepard is a husk from that picture. Composed of a certain amount of synthetics maybe, but the only way you see that scene is to have Shepard's body destroyed anyway and we already know he has synthetic parts inside of him. I'm not saying that this is evidence that he ISN'T indoctrinated, I'm just saying we shouldn't commit ourselves to comfirmation bias without examining it from all sides.

#6552
camcon2100

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PrinceOfFallout13 wrote...

if the theory becomes true

will people stop hating the endings?

No i will love the endings...It would truly bring the series to close. 

#6553
CreepingGeth

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PrinceOfFallout13 wrote...

if the theory becomes true

will people stop hating the endings?


If it's true then it changes the entire landscape of what we were given. It's suddenly no longer a poorly written mess, but a really clever sort of boss battle against Harbinger.

Well, the Stargazer scene is still a mess and terribly acted - that will never change.

#6554
ReclaimedHavoc

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I wanna make more revelations, it's fun.

Anymore crazy revelations anyone?

#6555
keith123456789

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thats probably what they are doing to us right now. makeing us lose hope in them. they are probably trying to make us feel exactly like shepered during the entire game. then again this could be the sadness talking hope is all we have left

#6556
madtsh

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The indoctrination theory gives me hope, but even that doesn't really explain what happens to the Normandy and your crewmates on it. I think the last scene of Normandy escaping the nova from the Crucible raises way too many questions, and I don't see how it would fit together with the indoctrination theory.

#6557
defenestrated

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The Bridgeburner wrote...

PrinceOfFallout13 wrote...

if the theory becomes true

will people stop hating the endings?


I'll stop hating, because this theory, if true, makes absolutely bloody sense... as opposed to the inchorency of what's there now. And all signs point to Indoc/Hallucination/NDE/"Battle for Shepard's Mind" scenario.

Ditto. It's actually a scary-powerful way to drive home indoctrination and it is consistent with what we knew before.

#6558
G0thicRhino

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lalalakanina wrote...

The indoctrination theory gives me hope, but even that doesn't really explain what happens to the Normandy and your crewmates on it. I think the last scene of Normandy escaping the nova from the Crucible raises way too many questions, and I don't see how it would fit together with the indoctrination theory.


Because it's not real. It does make sense. That, along with the entire sequence after the blast is in Shepard's mind.

Should be in the OP.

Modifié par G0thicRhino, 13 mars 2012 - 05:13 .


#6559
bitcloudrzr

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lalalakanina wrote...

The indoctrination theory gives me hope, but even that doesn't really explain what happens to the Normandy and your crewmates on it. I think the last scene of Normandy escaping the nova from the Crucible raises way too many questions, and I don't see how it would fit together with the indoctrination theory.


Your crew appears "safe", which is what they would want you to think if you sacrificed yourself. Not suppose to make sense, none of the endings are except the one where you wake up back on Earth.

#6560
The Bridgeburner

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lalalakanina wrote...

The indoctrination theory gives me hope, but even that doesn't really explain what happens to the Normandy and your crewmates on it. I think the last scene of Normandy escaping the nova from the Crucible raises way too many questions, and I don't see how it would fit together with the indoctrination theory.


Because the Normandy ISN'T flying away... it's the vision Shepard wants, his crew to safety as he (thinks he) dies or before he wakes up. Same with his crew on a garden planet, although as far as I know there is none along the Sol relay.

#6561
Lost Cipher

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DarkSeraphym wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

I think you keep missing the point.

EMS is based on time.

Rush through the game: Missing alot of assets, resources, and allies: Reapers only give you Destroy because they know you can't win. You don't have the manpower or firepower to, so it wouldn't matter. You'll fail and die, meaning they don't have to worry about indoctrinating Shepard

Actually play the content: Have all or majoirty of assets and resources, gain all possible allies: Reapers suddenly have a massive army to fight. that could possibly destroy them. Self preservation kicks in. The time spent gathering a large EMS score means indoctrination has had a longer time to manifest. Reapers use it by presenting you with 3 options and make the 2 they want appealing to Shepard's sensibilities while making Destroy sound like the worst possible option.

If you give in, the Reapers turn you into a sleeper agent and use you to destroy your fleets and alliances from within.

Don't give in and your resist the indoctrination and can obliterate the Reapers in to particle dust.

Anything not clear about this explaination at all still?

The deicision ONLY determines if you succumb to indoctrination or not, not if the Reapers are destroyed. It's not real, it's just Harbinger trying to keep you from undoing the cycle.


Call this the profiler in me, but normally people who think they have become ingenius with their stories in the form of these kinds of twists will leave subtle hints that are accessible to the greatest audience. They make it the responsibility of the audience to pick up on their clues. The part that I take issue with in this theory is the evidence of Shepard surviving, in which many people on these forums have complained about due to the fact that such an ending is extremely difficult and entirely impossible for some to come by without the use of multiplayer or Readiness. I myself have not been able to access the ending without bumping my Readiness up at least 5% more in all of my playthroughs. I would think that if BioWare had this kind of stuff planned out all along, they would have made it a little easier to get this ending; especially since Shepard waking up is one of your strongest pieces of evidence for the indoctrination theory. Right now, it seems to me like BioWare just really wants Shepard dead in your endings, especially since he'll "die" in 6 of 7 endings andthey  just tacked it on there so they could say "There, now you have an ending where he lives. Work hard and you can get it. Now you can leave us alone."

Assuming that this theory is true, it also presents a marketing problem as most people will succumb to Reaper indoctrination anyway, unless they are willing to raise their Readiness and its not normally a good practice of marketing to limit your product in such a manner, in this case post-ending DLC, to individuals who are already going to have a problem getting the proper ending to use it in the first place.


People who are desperate will believe what they choose to believe. The fact of the matter is that all the
evidence for the Indoctrination/Hallucination theory, though good on principle is circumstantial at best. A lot of it comes from sources outside of the game, like the novels or comics (growls). Also Bioware tends to recycle assets, most game development studios do as well. Their have been examples of human writing and numbers on alien worlds. 1M1 is most likely some aesthetic piece of art work. The roman numeral M equals 1,000.

The endings are meant to be open to interpretation for one reason, and one reason alone. So they can
continue to sell more Mass Effect titles. Casey Hudson telling you to keep your save, is like ME2 telling you to keep your save file. It will affect the explanation of the legend of Shepard in ME4.

The voice of Harbinger – Keith Szarabajka has no credits or postings in relation to Mass Effect 3.

This idea that the kid represents the effects of Indoctrination is a lie, in the Mass Effect art book it clearly states that the kid represents everyone Shepard cannot save. This is the most logical definition of this character. The dreams are the result that the toll of the war is having on Shepard's mind. For anyone who has fought, its supposed to represent PTSD. You can tell this by the fact that if primary characters die before each dream,
their voices echo in the dreams. This is most notable with Legion.

Also the practicality of this stunt makes no sense. People purchased Mass Effect 3 with the promise that it concluded the story of Shepard. Multiple developers said the game was a complete experience. To release the game and then release DLC that contains the “true” ending(s) would be suicide. People might begin to doubt that future Bioware titles are complete and decide not to purchase them on release.

The combination of voices for the Star Child at the end are to add a surreal quality to the it's voice... NMNL. The reason for this is simple, voice actors of their quality and experience cost lots of money.

Modifié par Lost Cipher, 13 mars 2012 - 05:16 .


#6562
Karait

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PrinceOfFallout13 wrote...

if the theory becomes true

will people stop hating the endings?


At the moment situation is still fully amendable.

However, with each passing hour without an official statement and with each arrogant tweet my resentment to BioWare rises and soon even a masterpiece of an ending won't suffice.

#6563
Rahabzu

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DarkSeraphym wrote...

Rahabzu wrote...

Yeah seeing those pictures now I feel horrible about picking control.  I really didn't notice how drastic it looked on my custom shepard, look like he was turning into dust but that's just total huskified right there.


I'm not convinced that Shepard is a husk from that picture. Composed of a certain amount of synthetics maybe, but the only way you see that scene is to have Shepard's body destroyed anyway and we already know he has synthetic parts inside of him. I'm not saying that this is evidence that he ISN'T indoctrinated, I'm just saying we shouldn't commit ourselves to comfirmation bias without examining it from all sides.


Well from the body shots from me2 I assume it's not metal plating under his skin, more like pipes connecting parts of his skeleton together and the fleshy parts went through accelerated regeneration due to the Reaper technology.  I believe something similar happened to grayson in the novels.

#6564
keith123456789

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Hope.. the thing that makes us organics..
Well, we gotta hope we're right..for the ending as a hallucination and bioware will relase the real ending as a patch or free dlc then again it could be just the promise i want to keep to liara and give her all those little blue babies :( please bioware you can still right the wrong you have done dont become TIM or Saren redeem yourselves. this ending made me cry please bioware please

#6565
Karait

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Lost Cipher wrote...

People who are desperate will believe
what they choose to believe. The fact of the matter is that all the
evidence for the Indoctrination/Hallucination theory, though good on
principle is circumstantial at best. A lot of it comes from sources
outside of the game, like the novels or comics (growls). Also Bioware
tends to recycle assets, most game development studios do as well.
Their has been examples of human
writing and numbers on alien worlds. 1M1 is most likely some
aesthetic piece of art work. The roman numeral M equals 1,000.

The endings are meant to be open to
interpretation for one reason, and one reason alone. So they can
continue to sell more Mass Effect titles. Casey Hudson telling you to
keep your save, is like ME2 telling you to keep your save file. It
will affect the explanation of the legend of Shepard in ME4.

The voice of Harbinger – Keith
Szarabajka has no credits or postings in relation to Mass Effect 3.

This idea that the kid represents the
effects of Indoctrination is a lie, in the Mass Effect art book it
clearly states that the kid represents everyone Shepard cannot save.
This is the most logical definition of this character. The dreams are
the result that the toll of the war is having on Shepard's mind. For
anyone who has fought, its supposed to represent PTSD. You can tell
this by the fact that if primary characters die before each dream,
their voices echo in the dreams. This is most notable with Legion.

Also the practicality of this stunt
makes no sense. People purchased Mass Effect 3 with the promise that
it concluded the story of Shepard. Multiple developers said the game
was a complete experience. To release the game and then release DLC
that contains the “true” ending(s) would be suicide. People might
begin to doubt that future Bioware titles are complete and decide not
to purchase them on release.

The combination of voices for the Star
Child at the end are to add a surreal quality to the it's voice...
NMNL. The reason for this is simple, voice actors of their quality
and experience cost lots of money.


Unfortunately, this guy is right.

#6566
Auresta

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Lost Cipher wrote...

DarkSeraphym wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

I think you keep missing the point.

EMS is based on time.

Rush through the game: Missing alot of assets, resources, and allies: Reapers only give you Destroy because they know you can't win. You don't have the manpower or firepower to, so it wouldn't matter. You'll fail and die, meaning they don't have to worry about indoctrinating Shepard

Actually play the content: Have all or majoirty of assets and resources, gain all possible allies: Reapers suddenly have a massive army to fight. that could possibly destroy them. Self preservation kicks in. The time spent gathering a large EMS score means indoctrination has had a longer time to manifest. Reapers use it by presenting you with 3 options and make the 2 they want appealing to Shepard's sensibilities while making Destroy sound like the worst possible option.

If you give in, the Reapers turn you into a sleeper agent and use you to destroy your fleets and alliances from within.

Don't give in and your resist the indoctrination and can obliterate the Reapers in to particle dust.

Anything not clear about this explaination at all still?

The deicision ONLY determines if you succumb to indoctrination or not, not if the Reapers are destroyed. It's not real, it's just Harbinger trying to keep you from undoing the cycle.


Call this the profiler in me, but normally people who think they have become ingenius with their stories in the form of these kinds of twists will leave subtle hints that are accessible to the greatest audience. They make it the responsibility of the audience to pick up on their clues. The part that I take issue with in this theory is the evidence of Shepard surviving, in which many people on these forums have complained about due to the fact that such an ending is extremely difficult and entirely impossible for some to come by without the use of multiplayer or Readiness. I myself have not been able to access the ending without bumping my Readiness up at least 5% more in all of my playthroughs. I would think that if BioWare had this kind of stuff planned out all along, they would have made it a little easier to get this ending; especially since Shepard waking up is one of your strongest pieces of evidence for the indoctrination theory. Right now, it seems to me like BioWare just really wants Shepard dead in your endings, especially since he'll "die" in 6 of 7 endings andthey  just tacked it on there so they could say "There, now you have an ending where he lives. Work hard and you can get it. Now you can leave us alone."

Assuming that this theory is true, it also presents a marketing problem as most people will succumb to Reaper indoctrination anyway, unless they are willing to raise their Readiness and its not normally a good practice of marketing to limit your product in such a manner, in this case post-ending DLC, to individuals who are already going to have a problem getting the proper ending to use it in the first place.


People who are desperate will believe
what they choose to believe. The fact of the matter is that all the
evidence for the Indoctrination/Hallucination theory, though good on
principle is circumstantial at best. A lot of it comes from sources
outside of the game, like the novels or comics (growls). Also Bioware
tends to recycle assets, most game development studios do as well.
Their has been examples of human
writing and numbers on alien worlds. 1M1 is most likely some
aesthetic piece of art work. The roman numeral M equals 1,000.

The endings are meant to be open to
interpretation for one reason, and one reason alone. So they can
continue to sell more Mass Effect titles. Casey Hudson telling you to
keep your save, is like ME2 telling you to keep your save file. It
will affect the explanation of the legend of Shepard in ME4.

The voice of Harbinger – Keith
Szarabajka has no credits or postings in relation to Mass Effect 3.

This idea that the kid represents the
effects of Indoctrination is a lie, in the Mass Effect art book it
clearly states that the kid represents everyone Shepard cannot save.
This is the most logical definition of this character. The dreams are
the result that the toll of the war is having on Shepard's mind. For
anyone who has fought, its supposed to represent PTSD. You can tell
this by the fact that if primary characters die before each dream,
their voices echo in the dreams. This is most notable with Legion.

Also the practicality of this stunt
makes no sense. People purchased Mass Effect 3 with the promise that
it concluded the story of Shepard. Multiple developers said the game
was a complete experience. To release the game and then release DLC
that contains the “true” ending(s) would be suicide. People might
begin to doubt that future Bioware titles are complete and decide not
to purchase them on release.

The combination of voices for the Star
Child at the end are to add a surreal quality to the it's voice...
NMNL. The reason for this is simple, voice actors of their quality
and experience cost lots of money.


I agree with you, I do. Maybe these are just the endings. If so, I'm pissed off. But we kind of want to give Bioware the benefit of the doubt, that they tried to deliver something extra and are living up to their name. 

#6567
bitcloudrzr

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Karait wrote...

Lost Cipher wrote...

People who are desperate will believe
what they choose to believe. The fact of the matter is that all the
evidence for the Indoctrination/Hallucination theory, though good on
principle is circumstantial at best. A lot of it comes from sources
outside of the game, like the novels or comics (growls). Also Bioware
tends to recycle assets, most game development studios do as well.
Their has been examples of human
writing and numbers on alien worlds. 1M1 is most likely some
aesthetic piece of art work. The roman numeral M equals 1,000.

The endings are meant to be open to
interpretation for one reason, and one reason alone. So they can
continue to sell more Mass Effect titles. Casey Hudson telling you to
keep your save, is like ME2 telling you to keep your save file. It
will affect the explanation of the legend of Shepard in ME4.

The voice of Harbinger – Keith
Szarabajka has no credits or postings in relation to Mass Effect 3.


This idea that the kid represents the
effects of Indoctrination is a lie, in the Mass Effect art book it
clearly states that the kid represents everyone Shepard cannot save.
This is the most logical definition of this character. The dreams are
the result that the toll of the war is having on Shepard's mind. For
anyone who has fought, its supposed to represent PTSD. You can tell
this by the fact that if primary characters die before each dream,
their voices echo in the dreams. This is most notable with Legion.

Also the practicality of this stunt
makes no sense. People purchased Mass Effect 3 with the promise that
it concluded the story of Shepard. Multiple developers said the game
was a complete experience. To release the game and then release DLC
that contains the “true” ending(s) would be suicide. People might
begin to doubt that future Bioware titles are complete and decide not
to purchase them on release.

The combination of voices for the Star
Child at the end are to add a surreal quality to the it's voice...
NMNL. The reason for this is simple, voice actors of their quality
and experience cost lots of money.


Unfortunately, this guy is right.


Because it actually didn't say anything?

#6568
balance5050

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If the content will be free, I will probably be like "shut up and take my money" for the rest of my life. but if they charge, I will begrudgingly pay for it, AND NEVER PAY FOR A BIOWARE/EA PRODUCT AGAIN.

It was like being with a really hot, super freaky chick... who gave gave the cold shoulder at the worst times and stole all your money.

#6569
Mini Jo

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I know most of you dismissed the claim of the Stargazer, but if we lose it to the reaper by choosing Control or Synthesis, how come the galaxy is saved anyway according to this silly man ?

#6570
The Bridgeburner

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defenestrated wrote...

Ditto. It's actually a scary-powerful way to drive home indoctrination and it is consistent with what we knew before.


Yep. And for how long indoctrination has been referenced throughout the series, it makes sense Shep would have to fight it in some form.

It would also cement the ME franchise in gaming history, one that took a big narrative risk, and a BIG risk with its fanbase.

Before this theory, I was like, "That's some crappy storytelling!" It's like E.E. "Doc" Smith was writing a Lensman book and a giggling J.G. Ballard substituted the final chapter with the ending of The Crystal World, there was such a tonal shift, it didn't gel. Now, with this theory, it's like... this could be some epic, unforgettable stuff - if it pans out.

#6571
xDarkspace

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Lost Cipher wrote...

People who are desperate will believe
what they choose to believe. The fact of the matter is that all the
evidence for the Indoctrination/Hallucination theory, though good on
principle is circumstantial at best. A lot of it comes from sources
outside of the game, like the novels or comics (growls). Also Bioware
tends to recycle assets, most game development studios do as well.
Their has been examples of human
writing and numbers on alien worlds. 1M1 is most likely some
aesthetic piece of art work. The roman numeral M equals 1,000.

The endings are meant to be open to
interpretation for one reason, and one reason alone. So they can
continue to sell more Mass Effect titles. Casey Hudson telling you to
keep your save, is like ME2 telling you to keep your save file. It
will affect the explanation of the legend of Shepard in ME4.

The voice of Harbinger – Keith
Szarabajka has no credits or postings in relation to Mass Effect 3.


This idea that the kid represents the
effects of Indoctrination is a lie, in the Mass Effect art book it
clearly states that the kid represents everyone Shepard cannot save.
This is the most logical definition of this character. The dreams are
the result that the toll of the war is having on Shepard's mind. For
anyone who has fought, its supposed to represent PTSD. You can tell
this by the fact that if primary characters die before each dream,
their voices echo in the dreams. This is most notable with Legion.

Also the practicality of this stunt
makes no sense. People purchased Mass Effect 3 with the promise that
it concluded the story of Shepard. Multiple developers said the game
was a complete experience. To release the game and then release DLC
that contains the “true” ending(s) would be suicide. People might
begin to doubt that future Bioware titles are complete and decide not
to purchase them on release.

The combination of voices for the Star
Child at the end are to add a surreal quality to the it's voice...
NMNL. The reason for this is simple, voice actors of their quality
and experience cost lots of money.

]

They dident end it it say like is 20 twitter post that this is not the end of the story and it cant end there because it doesent even wrap up any of the story it makes more questions.

Modifié par xDarkspace, 13 mars 2012 - 05:21 .


#6572
Brakensiek

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I just started a new game and one thing I noticed on the first level on Earth is that Shepherd seems to be the only person that notices the little boy. I have a feeling that the little boy is a device by Harbinger to make Shepherd more vulnerable to indoctrination.

#6573
Rip504

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This is kinda like seeing Elvis at McDonald's...

#6574
bitcloudrzr

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Mini Jo wrote...

I know most of you dismissed the claim of the Stargazer, but if we lose it to the reaper by choosing Control or Synthesis, how come the galaxy is saved anyway according to this silly man ?


Shepard is a legend either way.

#6575
Karait

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bitcloudrzr wrote...

Karait wrote...

Lost Cipher wrote...

People who are desperate will believe
what they choose to believe. The fact of the matter is that all the
evidence for the Indoctrination/Hallucination theory, though good on
principle is circumstantial at best. A lot of it comes from sources
outside of the game, like the novels or comics (growls). Also Bioware
tends to recycle assets, most game development studios do as well.
Their has been examples of human
writing and numbers on alien worlds. 1M1 is most likely some
aesthetic piece of art work. The roman numeral M equals 1,000.

The endings are meant to be open to
interpretation for one reason, and one reason alone. So they can
continue to sell more Mass Effect titles. Casey Hudson telling you to
keep your save, is like ME2 telling you to keep your save file. It
will affect the explanation of the legend of Shepard in ME4.

The voice of Harbinger – Keith
Szarabajka has no credits or postings in relation to Mass Effect 3.


This idea that the kid represents the
effects of Indoctrination is a lie, in the Mass Effect art book it
clearly states that the kid represents everyone Shepard cannot save.
This is the most logical definition of this character. The dreams are
the result that the toll of the war is having on Shepard's mind. For
anyone who has fought, its supposed to represent PTSD. You can tell
this by the fact that if primary characters die before each dream,
their voices echo in the dreams. This is most notable with Legion.

Also the practicality of this stunt
makes no sense. People purchased Mass Effect 3 with the promise that
it concluded the story of Shepard. Multiple developers said the game
was a complete experience. To release the game and then release DLC
that contains the “true” ending(s) would be suicide. People might
begin to doubt that future Bioware titles are complete and decide not
to purchase them on release.

The combination of voices for the Star
Child at the end are to add a surreal quality to the it's voice...
NMNL. The reason for this is simple, voice actors of their quality
and experience cost lots of money.


Unfortunately, this guy is right.


Because it actually didn't say anything?


Come on, if you think about it for a moment this thread is a 50% wonderland 50% coping mechanism.

Sad truth is BioWare failed miserably to deliver an ending to this epic series. As someone said, occam's razor.