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[Vikali]

Or the ending could be the crazy old man's glorified sparkly version of the ending, and Bioware put in that little 'secret ending' for a 'not so flashy what really happened' deal when Shep awakens.

[mooney6023]

I said it earlier, and it may have been noted already, but no matter who you chose in you last combat party, one of them will be on the crash landed normandy. That's too reliable to be a bug or an editorial error, and it's too vague and random to be "the end" even in the most twisted writer's dream.

At this point I am nearly certain this never was intended to be the end.
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this is a signature.

[Noob451]

ReclaimedHavoc wrote...

Noob451 wrote...

G4m3_Fr34k wrote...

 I'm almost certain that with the sheer amount of people looking into this theory that this little tidbit has been found somewhere in the 200+ page thread. But since this isn't in the opening post, I have no way of knowing for certain if it's known, so I'll go ahead and reveal what is even more definitive proof this "theory" is true (again if already posted sorry just ignore this post)

Right at the beginning of the game you'll notice the enigmatic kid playing in a pit of grass on the ground next to a road as Shepard is watching. Now we all know this BUT there's a crucial easter egg you probably didnt notice afterwards. AS soon as youre controlling Shepard, play normally following Anderson right until you get to the first climbable ladder. DON'T climb it yet!

Look directly to the right at the building where your eventually prompted to melee the husks when you're out of ammo. See who that is on the side looking through the railing? Yep, it's the kid, who has magically teleported from the ground roadside all the way up approximately 6 floors of a building in minutes from the opening to as soon as the reapers are invading! Obviously impossible, but even more suggesting evidence further on. As soon as you get to when the husks start climbing up the building, the kid will run TOWARDS the husks as he makes it inside ignored and unharmed by both them AND anderson as you two shoot the husks down. If not already discovered, rhis proves without a doubt that the kid is a complete fabrication by Shepard, assumingly due to indoctrination.

Start a new game and try it yourself if you don't believe me. Hell, you can even shoot the kid and he doesn't even react

had to make it easier to read, sorry.

Any vids on this?

I'm about to start a new game and check this out, idk if there are any vids, but i'll post back if i see anything.

[CDHarrisUSF]

Dap Brannigan wrote...

Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but that seems like a stretch to me that it means the 15th of March?  It would be great if it's true though, that's only a couple of days away.

The 1M1 and "mirror image" crap means nothing. That part is really grasping as straws. When you start getting into numerology, that's usually a hint that you've taken your conspiracy theory a step too far. Don't go down that rabbit hole. You'll create meaning where there is none and look like a crazy person.

There are lots of different number and letter combinations all over structures in Mass Effect to give it a sci-fi feel and look like there's logic / order to how they were built. It's just a reused texture. They made the other side's geometry a mirror image to save time. When you mirror the geometry you have to manually edit the texture to flip the text. It was a tiny detail (a 1 only looks slightly different backward) that most people wouldn't pay attention to, so they didn't bother wasting the effort. If they used a stock photo for Tali's face, they were obviously cutting corners already. The end.

[Rahabzu]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

Rahabzu wrote...

Well from the body shots from me2 I assume it's not metal plating under his skin, more like pipes connecting parts of his skeleton together and the fleshy parts went through accelerated regeneration due to the Reaper technology.  I believe something similar happened to grayson in the novels.

Take a look at the shots of Shepard's skeleton in the opening of ME2. It's, literally, in pieces. We have no idea to what extent his body had to be repaired, as even the Lazarus Project pieces in TIM's base don't tell us, but from these pictures we can see that his skeleton was in poor shape. I would imagine that synthetics were probably used to repair bones, possibly even to replace some that were missing entirely.

Yes I agree about the skeleton having synthetic replacement to fill in the gaps, still doesn't explain to me why his flesh under his skin would look like in those pictures.  To me it looks far too similar to how the Illusive man/husks have been portrayed.

[BlackDragonBane]

Karait wrote...

Fledgey wrote...

The difference between you and everyone else here is we want to believe it and are diving for evidence and we have a lot of solid facts. So many so that it appears that this is either intentional or a monkeys on a typewriter kind of situation. The people like you, however, come in and say no this is silly you're all dumb because I said so and I know everything without any counter points. The guy in the top of this quote thread is the only legitimate counter points I've seen yet. You're just trolling.

Now, here you are completely wrong. This thread is something of a coping mechanism for me but I can't disagree when a person comes and provides a rational point of view. And how the hell am I trolling?

You've basically been telling everyone that we're 'over-rationalizing' this theory when the vast majority of this topic has been analyzing components in the game itself to information already present throughout the series. It took  4 attempts to explain the logical implications of the EMS to you before you finally actually got the point.

Every time you've tried to argue that this theory is 'stupid' or just a coping mechanism, several people, including myself, have pointed out to you all the key components FROM THE GAME to you that help back the things we're defending.

[Auresta]

Miss Vader wrote...

ageofadrian wrote...

Another reason I believe?

The low hum throughout the dream sequences, and you also move at the same speed in the ending as you do in the dreams.

I never noticed the hums- but the slow moving in both dreams and ending is dead on-- sad I didn't catch that:blink:

Stepping in to say that slow movement in dreams is not unwarranted or illogical. It can just happen to simulate the feel of a dream. Slow walking right after a Reaper beam hits you seems reasonable - you're near-death struggling to get to the end. So I wouldn't count this as a piece of evidence. Same with the humming.

Modifié par Auresta, 13 mars 2012 - 05:40 .

[G0thicRhino]

Lost Cipher wrote...

DarkSeraphym wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

I think you keep missing the point.

EMS is based on time.

Rush through the game: Missing alot of assets, resources, and allies: Reapers only give you Destroy because they know you can't win. You don't have the manpower or firepower to, so it wouldn't matter. You'll fail and die, meaning they don't have to worry about indoctrinating Shepard

Actually play the content: Have all or majoirty of assets and resources, gain all possible allies: Reapers suddenly have a massive army to fight. that could possibly destroy them. Self preservation kicks in. The time spent gathering a large EMS score means indoctrination has had a longer time to manifest. Reapers use it by presenting you with 3 options and make the 2 they want appealing to Shepard's sensibilities while making Destroy sound like the worst possible option.

If you give in, the Reapers turn you into a sleeper agent and use you to destroy your fleets and alliances from within.

Don't give in and your resist the indoctrination and can obliterate the Reapers in to particle dust.

Anything not clear about this explaination at all still?

The deicision ONLY determines if you succumb to indoctrination or not, not if the Reapers are destroyed. It's not real, it's just Harbinger trying to keep you from undoing the cycle.

Call this the profiler in me, but normally people who think they have become ingenius with their stories in the form of these kinds of twists will leave subtle hints that are accessible to the greatest audience. They make it the responsibility of the audience to pick up on their clues. The part that I take issue with in this theory is the evidence of Shepard surviving, in which many people on these forums have complained about due to the fact that such an ending is extremely difficult and entirely impossible for some to come by without the use of multiplayer or Readiness. I myself have not been able to access the ending without bumping my Readiness up at least 5% more in all of my playthroughs. I would think that if BioWare had this kind of stuff planned out all along, they would have made it a little easier to get this ending; especially since Shepard waking up is one of your strongest pieces of evidence for the indoctrination theory. Right now, it seems to me like BioWare just really wants Shepard dead in your endings, especially since he'll "die" in 6 of 7 endings andthey  just tacked it on there so they could say "There, now you have an ending where he lives. Work hard and you can get it. Now you can leave us alone."

Assuming that this theory is true, it also presents a marketing problem as most people will succumb to Reaper indoctrination anyway, unless they are willing to raise their Readiness and its not normally a good practice of marketing to limit your product in such a manner, in this case post-ending DLC, to individuals who are already going to have a problem getting the proper ending to use it in the first place.

People who are desperate will believe what they choose to believe. The fact of the matter is that all the
evidence for the Indoctrination/Hallucination theory, though good on principle is circumstantial at best. A lot of it comes from sources outside of the game, like the novels or comics (growls). Also Bioware tends to recycle assets, most game development studios do as well. Their have been examples of human writing and numbers on alien worlds. 1M1 is most likely some aesthetic piece of art work. The roman numeral M equals 1,000.

The endings are meant to be open to interpretation for one reason, and one reason alone. So they can
continue to sell more Mass Effect titles. Casey Hudson telling you to keep your save, is like ME2 telling you to keep your save file. It will affect the explanation of the legend of Shepard in ME4.

The voice of Harbinger – Keith Szarabajka has no credits or postings in relation to Mass Effect 3.

This idea that the kid represents the effects of Indoctrination is a lie, in the Mass Effect art book it clearly states that the kid represents everyone Shepard cannot save. This is the most logical definition of this character. The dreams are the result that the toll of the war is having on Shepard's mind. For anyone who has fought, its supposed to represent PTSD. You can tell this by the fact that if primary characters die before each dream,
their voices echo in the dreams. This is most notable with Legion.

Also the practicality of this stunt makes no sense. People purchased Mass Effect 3 with the promise that it concluded the story of Shepard. Multiple developers said the game was a complete experience. To release the game and then release DLC that contains the “true” ending(s) would be suicide. People might begin to doubt that future Bioware titles are complete and decide not to purchase them on release.

The combination of voices for the Star Child at the end are to add a surreal quality to the it's voice... NMNL. The reason for this is simple, voice actors of their quality and experience cost lots of money.

While all may be a long shot, we're still giving Bioware the benefit of the doubt here. 

With most games the outside fiction stays outside of the games, but the fact is, ME3 ties more over from it's fiction (books, comics, etc.) than any other game I've played recently. So I don't see those tie-ins as reaching. I do however, agree with you on the 1m1. I think it's just a recycling of game assets, Bioware has always been rather notorious for that. Which I'm totally fine with. At the same time, you could explain those away as Shep's mind rationalizing the dream. ( I don't know that I believe that one yet.)

As for the kid, sure. I thought throughtout my first playthrough it was a form of PTSD and I found it completely compelling. So we say the kid in the nightmares isn't a form of indoctrination. At the end of the game... how do you explain that all of the "ones he couldn't save" are in control of the Reapers? It's Harbinger/Reapers using the most um... what's the word... distressing(?) thought to connect with him and further their indoctrination process.

Even if you don't believe he is part of the indoctrination throughout the game, on the crucible, it makes the most sense that he is part of that process.

I agree that attempting a stunt like this is a HUGE risk, but... what would stick with you more? An ending that gave you little closure and made almost no sense. Or an ending that made you seriously question everything, be angry, and think, followed by the reveal that it wasn't truly the end? 

I still believe it is a stunt. One that takes some serious risk and heartbreak. Do you think they like the way everyone is ripping the game apart? Something they put their souls into creating? They would not crush their fans like that, nor themselves. They're purposely staying hush-hush. Otherwise they would just come out and say, "That's it. As is."

This will end with a bang.

[DarkSeraphym]

crimsontotem wrote...

Occam's razor... one of the most idiotic bs theory to just overlook the complex situation.

Occam's Razor is never to be used to overlook complicated situations. The only purpose the Razor is to serve is to present simpler solutions to be considered in tandem with more complicated ones. At best, the Razor is a law of probability and not a logical fallacy. With that said, however, the Razor is worth considering due to its connection with probability and arguments.

[Scifix]

I agree with this theory of things happening in Shepard's head. First of all no deal, I think I will take my chances with the reapers using the armada I just brought with me..., second, really? magically there are three panels that represent choices? In the Mass Effect universe?(maybe in Fable). Third, ok Supreme Being/Ascended Atlantian from Stargate/Jodie Foster's dad in Contact. Can't the choice machine work with a blood sample? Sorry this isn't Final Fantasy or World of Warcraft. This is Shepard fighting his inner demons while the crew comes to rez him. Also you gathered all these people and they play almost no role or help you in your final decision. It all falls on you, yeah right, you are nobody to dictate the fate of the universe and neither is little Casper. For someone who claims to being unable to predict the future he seems pretty sure and prepared with his three colored choices lol.

[IhateEA-Mask]

What does Shepard dying to Husks(which is kind of hard but possible if you dont' shoot them) after waking up in slow motion or TIM killing him mean for the theory?

Also two more things: Everyone is dead or damaged after Harbinger beam, but Anderson looks completely fine. HOW the heck Anderson apparently survives to beam without getting hit?

Secondly, Anderson says that walls are shifting in Citadel. Without that line, Shepard would be walking to control panel on straight path with Anderson somehow being there before him despite ending up in different place. What was last time we heard walls shifting with reaper thing? On Derelict reaper on logs of indoctrinated scientists.

[rockman0]

blind black wrote...



liara and EDI dead bodies at the 1:20 mark. i wonder how this person go it to happen?

That's crazy. I wonder if other bad ending show dead bodies.

[Richard0600]

OMG.. reading ALL these threads on BSN/Reddit/Kotatku.. etc. etc.. is making me so mad. People just don't see the indoctrination and their denial and anger is a pure example of how indoctrinated they are... My hat goes to you Bioware. Thank you for making a master piece, you are the gods of RPG's..

[hex23]

I don't mean to be rude but if you disagree with this theory, or have a counter point actually read the thread before  you respond. Every single post disagreeing is parroting things that were addressed 100+ pages ago. You aren't bringing anything new to the table, trust me.

[DarkSeraphym]

G0thicRhino wrote...

While all may be a long shot, we're still giving Bioware the benefit of the doubt here. 

With most games the outside fiction stays outside of the games, but the fact is, ME3 ties more over from it's fiction (books, comics, etc.) than any other game I've played recently. So I don't see those tie-ins as reaching. I do however, agree with you on the 1m1. I think it's just a recycling of game assets, Bioware has always been rather notorious for that. Which I'm totally fine with. At the same time, you could explain those away as Shep's mind rationalizing the dream. ( I don't know that I believe that one yet.)

As for the kid, sure. I thought throughtout my first playthrough it was a form of PTSD and I found it completely compelling. So we say the kid in the nightmares isn't a form of indoctrination. At the end of the game... how do you explain that all of the "ones he couldn't save" are in control of the Reapers? It's Harbinger/Reapers using the most um... what's the word... distressing(?) thought to connect with him and further their indoctrination process.

Even if you don't believe he is part of the indoctrination throughout the game, on the crucible, it makes the most sense that he is part of that process.

I agree that attempting a stunt like this is a HUGE risk, but... what would stick with you more? An ending that gave you little closure and made almost no sense. Or an ending that made you seriously question everything, be angry, and think, followed by the reveal that it wasn't truly the end? 

I still believe it is a stunt. One that takes some serious risk and heartbreak. Do you think they like the way everyone is ripping the game apart? Something they put their souls into creating? They would not crush their fans like that, nor themselves. They're purposely staying hush-hush. Otherwise they would just come out and say, "That's it. As is."

This will end with a bang.

To be fair, the game is still new. There are still sales to be had and admitting that the customers are stuck with lackluster endings is not going to sell games, especially to people you will not recommend it to because of the endings. Damage will be done from silence entirely, but not nearly as much damage will be done as would be had they just come out and admitted this is all we are getting.

[crimsontotem]

Doctor Quinn wrote...

Occum's razor is about cutting away excess to institute simple elegant solutions. How is magic crucible that turns everyone into a synth hybrid, kills all synthetic life, or has magic spheres that make the reapers surrender to shepherd simple or elegant? How do these even solve the problems of singularity and conflict that the reapers posit they exist to solve? It is no less absurd than it being a fevered indoctrination dream. In fact it's more palatable if it were.

that is why i wanna punch any people in the face when they try to bring Occum's razor to any discussion... 

[Auresta]

rockman0 wrote...

blind black wrote...



liara and EDI dead bodies at the 1:20 mark. i wonder how this person go it to happen?

That's crazy. I wonder if other bad ending show dead bodies.

This is through low EMS. In either case, not seeing them there or seeing them there, they still end up on the Normandy.

[Rip504]

TIM just shot and killed me...

[Mini Jo]

IhateEA-Mask wrote...

What does Shepard dying to Husks(which is kind of hard but possible if you dont' shoot them) after waking up in slow motion or TIM killing him mean for the theory?

Shepard falls into limbo.

[Rahabzu]

Mini Jo wrote...

IhateEA-Mask wrote...

What does Shepard dying to Husks(which is kind of hard but possible if you dont' shoot them) after waking up in slow motion or TIM killing him mean for the theory?

Shepard falls into limbo.

From a gameplay standpoint he probably just fails the sequence. 

[The Bridgeburner]

CDHarrisUSF wrote...

The 1M1 and "mirror image" crap means nothing. That part is really grasping as straws. When you start getting into numerology, that's usually a hint that you've taken your conspiracy theory a step too far. Don't go down that rabbit hole. You'll create meaning where there is none and look like a crazy person.

There are lots of different number and letter combinations all over structures in Mass Effect to give it a sci-fi feel and look like there's logic / order to how they were built. It's just a reused texture. They made the other side's geometry a mirror image to save time. When you mirror the geometry you have to manually edit the texture to flip the text. It was a tiny detail (a 1 only looks slightly different backward) that most people wouldn't pay attention to, so they didn't bother wasting the effort. If they used a stock photo for Tali's face, they were obviously cutting corners already. The end.

While I don't subscribe to the numerical date idea, the 1M1 and its mirror are indicative of how the Citadel there is pieced from fragments of Shepards memories... Collectors, Keepers, Shadow Broker ship, Cerberus base. It adds to the theory that what's playing out is in Shep's mind.

[ReclaimedHavoc]

Auresta wrote...

Miss Vader wrote...

ageofadrian wrote...

Another reason I believe?

The low hum throughout the dream sequences, and you also move at the same speed in the ending as you do in the dreams.

I never noticed the hums- but the slow moving in both dreams and ending is dead on-- sad I didn't catch that:blink:

Stepping in to say that slow movement in dreams is not unwarranted or illogical. It can just happen to simulate the feel of a dream. Slow walking right after a Reaper beam hits you seems reasonable - you're near-death struggling to get to the end. So I wouldn't count this as a piece of evidence. Same with the humming.

As much as I'd like to count the slo-mo as proof, when I replayed it, the game only slowed when the Husks ran in and I had to shoot. Same with the Marauder.

[ceruleancrescent]

ceruleancrescent wrote...

 Was looking over a video of the dream sequence(s) HERE
And found what the voices (non-dead crew members) were whispering
 

"Some souls die in battle, some in their sleep, and some die for no reason at all"
I know this could refer to the child who died who represents those Shepard could save, but it just sound so downright ominous. Plus the sudden development of "oily shadows" in the dream that wasn't there during the first sequence.



I know this has been pointed out before, but look at the child's freaky smile, he's smirking as they are being lit on fire while Shepard looks somewhat dispairing.

Also, when Shepard wake from the dreams, they see this



And when they see as they are hit by the repear beam



To me, what Shepard sees when coming out of his dreams, looks a lot like what he sees when he gets hit by the reaper beam/enters the indoctrinated/dream-like state that is the ending.

Source

[BlackDragonBane]

Rahabzu wrote...

Mini Jo wrote...

IhateEA-Mask wrote...

What does Shepard dying to Husks(which is kind of hard but possible if you dont' shoot them) after waking up in slow motion or TIM killing him mean for the theory?

Shepard falls into limbo.

From a gameplay standpoint he probably just fails the sequence. 

Ya, you just get a Critical Failure and have to reload.

[DarkSeraphym]

Doctor Quinn wrote...

Occum's razor is about cutting away excess to institute simple elegant solutions. How is magic crucible that turns everyone into a synth hybrid, kills all synthetic life, or has magic spheres that make the reapers surrender to shepherd simple or elegant? How do these even solve the problems of singularity and conflict that the reapers posit they exist to solve? It is no less absurd than it being a fevered indoctrination dream. In fact it's more palatable if it were.

Perhaps I am wrong, but the only invocation I have seen regarding Occam's Razor was my own in response to the voice issue with Harbinger and the Star Child. If anyone is attempting to use the razor with regards to the Mass Effect story, it won't work. However, it can be invoked with arguments, especially when there are multiple explanations for why a voice might exist in a particular scene.