57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Urumashi]

The Bridgeburner wrote...

Urumashi wrote...

The Bridgeburner wrote...

Urumashi wrote...


Wait wait wait, something just occured to me, it seems like anderson seems to stumble across every scene just before shep does, and shep always sees that exact same scene moments later, is it possible that the reapers are impersonating anderson's voice and "building" the world almost inception style so that the scene will make sense to shepard and he wont question the surroundings? like the 1M1 signs which appear as early as the catwalk down the stairs? As legion says, he had to build the consensus to a familiar form so shep could comprehend it, is it possible the reapers (also synthetic) are doing the exact same thing?

It's either this or it's Shepard himself trying to comprehend, i.e. his subconcious drawing upon the past to substitute what he's never seen. Either way works for me.

Also something else: Wasnt the name of the dlc pack that first introduced this technology called "operation overlord" Shouldnt that be a bit of a dead giveaway?

Good point. Man, it seems so logical... it all fits.

Good god if any of this is true (which at this point....good lord, if it isnt this is one hell of a coincidence) they must have been planning this for years.

[The Bridgeburner]

xDarkspace wrote...

mooney6023 wrote...

@msitton,

excellent work. I wondered why they fixated on shepard holding his hand to his bleeding side, and even pulling the hand away and looking at the blood on it. the fact that it's gone moments later is interesting.

This leaves quite a bit of room for the possibility that no one ever left earth for the citadel.

But, boy does that leave even more questions. If shepard never makes it, who the hell blows up all the relays? Or at the very least what the hell is the red holocaust chasing the normandy through the relay?

OMG it was fake from where he get hit by harbinger to the last second of the normandy crash scene is all fake the normandy never crashed and the crucible has not been activated yet.

Bingo! But how it all wraps up - IF it wraps up - is another thing.

[msitton]

UKillMeLongTime wrote...

G0thicRhino wrote...

msitton wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

*snip*

It's these points that lead me to believe that this theory is correct. I just don't see how the same group of writers that got me to be so emotional over Grunt, Thane, Mordin, and Legion do a complete 180 and deliver an ending with huge wholes.

I understand game companies make mistakes, but I just can't seem to imagine this theory not being true and not a single person noticing what an utter failure they would be on their own. The Bioware staff loves these games just as we do. I can't see them completely throwing it away despite whatever pressure EA may have provided. 

Mass Effect 3 is first and foremost a blockbuster game at this point. Yes EA want this game to sell, yes they want it to have mass appeal, but I don't think they are inheritly "evil" like some people make them out to be. They want to make money yes, but what company doesn't. A company wouldn't completely trash its credibility on this type of game especially one that rides so heavily on "hardcore" gamer appeal. After all its not like you could legitimately pick up ME3 and play it without prior knowledge; you would be completely lost.

This is what I have been saying. <3

but if they did i blame......ADDING MULTIPLAYER VS A PROPER ENDING in the SP
damn well better not be whats going on here as the game was perfect up till the last 20 mins

Multiplayer was supposedly developed by a seperate team within Bioware. The company has claimed since day one that it would not take away from the single player in any way. I for one tend to believe that.

Multiplayer isn't spectacular, but it isn't bad either. After all the maps are already in the single player along with all the enemies and weapons. It doens't seem that far fetched that a much smaller team simply built multiplayer based off of the assets from singleplayer. I wouldn't fret too much about it.

I completely agree though. The game was excatly what I wanted until the Harbinger Beam. However, now that I am so firmly behind this Ind/Hul theory going throught the game again is rather fun. I can actually play it with some piece of mind for now; even if it is still just speculation.

[Sheparded]

I thought it was weird that you after you are hit by the blast your scaring (from me2) doesnt appear but as soon as you get on the citadel it does? anyone know how this could indicate towards any of the present theory's?

[Omilophile]

Omega Scythe wrote...

A blast of that intensity would also have BLOWN HIM TO PIECES, just like any of the other Reaper lasers you've had to dodge throughout the game.  While that's probably one part of the eerie silence, we can't rule out that it can mean something else.

Science is sound though.  Explosions are **** like that: even if you survive the first, you won't be able to hear the second one following.

That's true, but I'm not trying to disprove the indoctrination/hallucination theory. I'm just making sure we cover our bases and don't use silly things like trees as our absolute proof.

[Rip504]

Auresta wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

I just re-watched my destroy ending and it appears if you do not have a high enough ems you do not see the N7 armor scene.

Yes - 4k EMS if you save Anderson and 5k EMS if you don't.

So what does that mean for the hallucination?

[Lugaidster]

NubXL wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

NubXL wrote...

ReclaimedHavoc wrote...

NubXL wrote...

You see what you've done BioWare? Your ending was so traumatic that an increasing number of users are resigning themselves to the delusion that the ending was just a hallucination, and that the real one is coming any day now.

I'm just gonna make an assumption and say you haven't read anything here.

A better assumption would be that I was joking.

A lot of these things make sense, but I really don't think BioWare had such complex plans.  "Lazy writing" covers the same bases as all of these detailed explanations for every little thing.

I do think they did put some attempted indoctrination in there in the form of making "Control" the blue ending and "Destroy" (your objective from the very start) the red ending, as shown by their display of which one TIM would do and which one Anderson would do.  I figure that was Shepard mulling it over.  I don't think it goes further than that.

The child I think was just in the image of a child because Shepard was tripping out over that kid for the whole game.  It could have taken the form of anything, as shown by its multiple simultaneous vocal tracks.  The went all "Contact" with it, basically.

Yeah, but lazy writing still doesn't explain everything else. Remember, for a hypothesis to become a theory you must be able to make predictions with it. We can't prove our hypothesis yet because none of our predictions have become true but, lazy writing has more holes than ours. Lazy writting doesn't cover the fact that the 99% of the game was beautifully written. Lazy writting doesn't cover the fact that Bioware is refusing to reply and tossing weird comments here and there.

Our hypothesis covers everything that has happened up until now and it explains it. Is it the truth? No, but is it the one that fits the most? I'd bet my ass.

Well I agree that the rest of the game was fairly well written, but I wouldn't expect them to reply.  They wouldn't want to acknowledge the fact that so many people think the ending to their trilogy is terrible. Not so close to launch, anyway.  That's pretty standard corporate reaction.

Like they replied to the DLC issue by saying that part of it was effectively in the original disc admitting it? The whole thing about they'd never reply is bull. They will make a statement at some point, they have to. Even if to deny or stick to their guns. No real company let's this big controversy fly by the radar. The more people complain the more pressure is on them.

Modifié par Lugaidster, 13 mars 2012 - 07:00 .

[krystalevenstar]

Michael Gamble: those of you who have played infiltrator and/or the datapad - send me your honest opinions. Do you like these sorts of metagame experiences?

So they're exploring Metagame experiences with Mass Effect 3 eh >_>

Modifié par krystalevenstar, 13 mars 2012 - 07:02 .

[Urumashi]

Ok ok quick, someone summarize all of this before we start forgetting things!

[KillerQuag]

So, if it was a hallucination how do you wave away the box at the end of all 3 of the endings that says, "Shephard is now a legend by defeating the Reaver forces. Keep on playing DLC or side missions!"

edit:  All 3 ending(s) have the exact same box.

Modifié par KillerQuag, 13 mars 2012 - 07:02 .

[Noob451]

Urumashi wrote...

Ok ok quick, someone summarize all of this before we start forgetting things!

I'm too tired to do that... anyone else game?

[Rip504]

Your happy ending is Shepard on Earth,because I chose destroy and did not get it...?

[Paul Berinde]

Hi guys, sorry if I repeat something already stated by someone before me, but there are 273 pages of posts, so tl;dr.

This debacle really seems to me to be of the same kind as the ending to Neon Genesis Evangelion, an anime series that some of you might have heard of.

Long story short, the last 2 episodes of the show, which were supposed to bring closure to the series were full of cryptic, metaphysical stuff, no action whatsoever, a dreamlike sequence. It was intended to be the true ending to the series, but the fans were not pleased and sent death threat notes to Studio Gainax, and the creator of the show, Hideaki Anno, to "persuade them" to fix the show.

So instead of leaving it the way he intended to, that is, open to interpretation (and guess what, 273 pages of comments already) he had to make a feature presentation, called the End of Evangelion, which was action packed, full of death etc. The way they fixed it was that this new ending actually wraps around the one of the series, it doesn't deny its existence.

So as an analogy,(I have yet to finish the game, yes, I've been bad, read about the ending, but my Xbox and the game are in another country, so I couldn't resist) the ending for the "vanilla" Mass Effect 3 is probably just half the tale, and if so, I am perfectly fine with it the way it is, and if Bioware decides to padd it out with the other half, in order to silence the Reaper-like "i hate you", "i will destroy you" fans, then we might see the other half, but just as Anno thought his initial version was enough, I bet the guys from Bioware also considered that an ending such as this is opened for interpretation and will get us talking and debating it.

It at least breaks the mold, even if it is in a way not many of us expected.

releasing control.....

[Auresta]

Rip504 wrote...

Auresta wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

I just re-watched my destroy ending and it appears if you do not have a high enough ems you do not see the N7 armor scene.

Yes - 4k EMS if you save Anderson and 5k EMS if you don't.

So what does that mean for the hallucination?

I forget the explanation exactly - but don't you question why you would need so much EMS to survive? Could someone else address this better than me?

[Joe920]

Lurchibald wrote...

Another thing about the kid at the start is that we see him climb aboard the shuttle then look up at Shepard... but notice how nobody really seems to notice the kid on the shuttle? The kid seemingly struggles to get on the shuttle yet no-one (not even the soldier at the door) go to help the kid (Actually they don't even seem to acknowledge his presence)

Noticed the same thing, all but Shepard are oblivious to this kid. He's got to be a piece of Reaper indoc software uploaded to Shep's mind, or something like that.

Looking forward to the conclusion...hope BW doesn't screw it up.

[FRancium]

Lurchibald wrote...

Another thing about the kid at the start is that we see him climb aboard the shuttle then look up at Shepard... but notice how nobody really seems to notice the kid on the shuttle? The kid seemingly struggles to get on the shuttle yet no-one (not even the soldier at the door) go to help the kid (Actually they don't even seem to acknowledge his presence)

Not 100% sure, but I also felt that sequence weird at the time- the kid didn't even have any dirt or blood on him/his coat !
(Combined with a lot of other evidence here, Bioware is either brilliant, or terribly lazy/sloppy.)

[mooney6023]

xDarkspace wrote...

mooney6023 wrote...

@msitton,

excellent work. I wondered why they fixated on shepard holding his hand to his bleeding side, and even pulling the hand away and looking at the blood on it. the fact that it's gone moments later is interesting.

This leaves quite a bit of room for the possibility that no one ever left earth for the citadel.

But, boy does that leave even more questions. If shepard never makes it, who the hell blows up all the relays? Or at the very least what the hell is the red holocaust chasing the normandy through the relay?

OMG it was fake from where he get hit by harbinger to the last second of the normandy crash scene is all fake the normandy never crashed and the crucible has not been activated yet.

That's equally plausible.  

What will really really bite is if Bioware says at some point, "this is all you get, but nudge nudge wink wink, the guys looking into the anachronisms and plot holes in the final sequence are on the right track."

[NubXL]

Lugaidster wrote...

NubXL wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

NubXL wrote...

ReclaimedHavoc wrote...

NubXL wrote...

You see what you've done BioWare? Your ending was so traumatic that an increasing number of users are resigning themselves to the delusion that the ending was just a hallucination, and that the real one is coming any day now.

I'm just gonna make an assumption and say you haven't read anything here.

A better assumption would be that I was joking.

A lot of these things make sense, but I really don't think BioWare had such complex plans.  "Lazy writing" covers the same bases as all of these detailed explanations for every little thing.

I do think they did put some attempted indoctrination in there in the form of making "Control" the blue ending and "Destroy" (your objective from the very start) the red ending, as shown by their display of which one TIM would do and which one Anderson would do.  I figure that was Shepard mulling it over.  I don't think it goes further than that.

The child I think was just in the image of a child because Shepard was tripping out over that kid for the whole game.  It could have taken the form of anything, as shown by its multiple simultaneous vocal tracks.  The went all "Contact" with it, basically.

Yeah, but lazy writing still doesn't explain everything else. Remember, for a hypothesis to become a theory you must be able to make predictions with it. We can't prove our hypothesis yet because none of our predictions have become true but, lazy writing has more holes than ours. Lazy writting doesn't cover the fact that the 99% of the game was beautifully written. Lazy writting doesn't cover the fact that Bioware is refusing to reply and tossing weird comments here and there.

Our hypothesis covers everything that has happened up until now and it explains it. Is it the truth? No, but is it the one that fits the most? I'd bet my ass.

Well I agree that the rest of the game was fairly well written, but I wouldn't expect them to reply.  They wouldn't want to acknowledge the fact that so many people think the ending to their trilogy is terrible. Not so close to launch, anyway.  That's pretty standard corporate reaction.

Like they replied to the DLC issue by saying that part of it was effectively in the original disc admitting it? The whole thing about they'd never reply is bull. They will make a statement at some point, they have to. Even if to deny or stick to their guns. No real company let's this big controversy fly by the radar. The more people complain the more pressure is on them.

Well Forbes had even reported on that one, and it looked like they had blatantly lied and ripped their fans off.  Not quite the same thing.

[Urumashi]

KillerQuag wrote...

So, if it was a hallucination how do you wave away the box at the end of all 3 of the endings that says, "Shephard is now a legend by defeating the Reaver forces. Keep on playing DLC or side missions!"

edit:  All 3 ending(s) have the exact same box.

Simple, the message being sent by bioware is that not only are the reapers indoctrinating shep, they're indoctrinating you, it wouldnt be a very convincing indoctrination of the game froze and crashed after you beat the game...or whatever you think the alternative of the box would be.

[Joyceee]

Sierra163 wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

 

Going to analyze somethings that have been brought up before, but bear repeating.

0:40 - you hear, I'm assuming, Coates over the comm channel go 'God... they're all gone.'

0:46 - you hear the following conversation:
- Female voice: Did we get anyone to the beam?
- Coates; Negative. Our entire force was decimated

Now, if this was reality, Coates would have seen Shepard get up from where they had fallen and approaching the beam. Such is not the case. The comm link just goes silent from that point.

at about 1:00, Shepard picks up the magic infinte god pistol



If you look behind you, the ENTIRE background is blurred beyond recognition and much of the area you JUST passed through appears to be missing. There is also the two dead trees that were not there during the mad dash approach to the Conduit.

2:31 - You hear Anderson over the comm link, yet if Coates is correct and the team is wiped out, how is Anderson contacting Shepard?

2:55 - When asked if he is up in the Citadel as well, Anderson says he followed Shepard up, yet we did not see him ANYWHERE on the battlefield. Plus, he says 'we' distinctly, meaning others made it on the Citadel, yet we don't see them and they supposedly were dropped off somewhere else by the Conduit.

3:30 - Shepard picks up ANOTER infite god-pistol. What happened to the one he/she just had? If you noticed before, the first pistol is mysteriously gone.

4:56 - The movine panels bear a striking resemblence to the engine system on the Shadow Broker's ship. This may be just level design but if you look on either side, it goes as far as you can see and you see no other avenues of reaching the console room.

6:00 - Somehow, Anderson beats Shepard to the console room despite there being no other paths and not seeing Anderson either behind or in front of you until this point.

6:13 - The Huskified Illusive Man is suddenly right behind you and there was no indication he was even ON the Citadel. You also begin to hear whispers as he talks and the oily black shadows appear on the edges of the screen. You will also hear a Reaper like deep trilling noise accompanying this.

8:15 - TIM forces Shepard to shoot Anderson. Jump to 8:22 and pay VERY CLOSE attention to where Anderson has their hand.



Notice where Shepard's arm is and the fact that she is suddenly bleeding profusely when she wasn't moments prior to shooting Anderson? Look again when Shepard is outside the Citadel and talking to Catalyst.



Notice the blood on her arm is suddenly gone?

There are WAY too many inconsistences in just the scene leading up to meeting Catalyst for it not to be anything more than an indoctrinated halluciation. There's is symbolism in the conversaiton with Anderson and TIM, missing envrionments and added elements that weren't there before. There is too much 'wrong' with this whole sequence for it to be oversight on Bioware developers. SOMETHING is going on here beyond what we've seen.

Something else I noticed.

Note where she's holding her side. Watch the Shep live video. Doesn't it look like a piece of rebar is stabed into the same spot?

Actually, this is really interesting. Can anybody add some clarification on this? Or is this grasping at straws again?

[KillerQuag]

@Paul Berinde, go YouTube the endings and tell me that's 1/2 of anything. It's almost 90% completely crapped out in the last 4 minutes.

[TheMadBlimper]

This could all be leading up to Bioware making the single greatest marketing scheme in the history of gaming. That sounds more like Bioware than a shoddy put together ending like the one we have now.

[Lambchopz]

Paul Berinde wrote...

Hi guys, sorry if I repeat something already stated by someone before me, but there are 273 pages of posts, so tl;dr.

This debacle really seems to me to be of the same kind as the ending to Neon Genesis Evangelion, an anime series that some of you might have heard of.

Long story short, the last 2 episodes of the show, which were supposed to bring closure to the series were full of cryptic, metaphysical stuff, no action whatsoever, a dreamlike sequence. It was intended to be the true ending to the series, but the fans were not pleased and sent death threat notes to Studio Gainax, and the creator of the show, Hideaki Anno, to "persuade them" to fix the show.

So instead of leaving it the way he intended to, that is, open to interpretation (and guess what, 273 pages of comments already) he had to make a feature presentation, called the End of Evangelion, which was action packed, full of death etc. The way they fixed it was that this new ending actually wraps around the one of the series, it doesn't deny its existence.

So as an analogy,(I have yet to finish the game, yes, I've been bad, read about the ending, but my Xbox and the game are in another country, so I couldn't resist) the ending for the "vanilla" Mass Effect 3 is probably just half the tale, and if so, I am perfectly fine with it the way it is, and if Bioware decides to padd it out with the other half, in order to silence the Reaper-like "i hate you", "i will destroy you" fans, then we might see the other half, but just as Anno thought his initial version was enough, I bet the guys from Bioware also considered that an ending such as this is opened for interpretation and will get us talking and debating it.

It at least breaks the mold, even if it is in a way not many of us expected.

releasing control.....

I know what you are talking about.

Fortunately, as far as I know, we haven't degenerated to death threats.

Good analogy though.

[Chnchn]

Well having finished the game and getting what people are saying is the 'perfect' red ending, a few things struck me instantly which made me wonder whether:

a) Bioware writers were sloppy and didn't think about the ending much.
or
Are being Bioware to the core and have something planned that will knock our socks off!

1) When I got hit by that Reaper beam on the way to the pillar of light I thought (while pumping with adrenalin,) 'DAMN I got hit by that and took it!' Later after I finished the game I thought 'wait a sec... the last red beam that hit me killed me, why didn't this one?'

2) The ending scene with the Normandy crashing confused the heck out of me. Why was my love interest who was also in my party, on the ship.... smiling.... not missing me at all?

3) Why was the 'Catalyst' the child from the dreams? This seemed very fishy to me.

There were a lot of other things that struck me as odd that were covered already. I am with the 'this is not the real ending' crowd in thinking that this isn't the full story yet. If this is the case and Bioware surprise us with more, I will be thoroughly amazed and thankful. If it -isn't- the case and this is all the ending ever will be, then I'm afraid I'll never touch a bioware product again.

Like others have said, the ending doesn't feel satisfying or complete and in all honesty feels too 'anime' like for a western developer. The breathing scene of the perfect ending does give me hope that there's more to this story than we have experienced.

Besides, I want to see those little blue children!

[Outlaw704]

Raxxman wrote...

Doctor Quinn wrote...

Perhaps I am wrong, but the only invocation I have seen regarding Occam's Razor was my own in response to the voice issue with Harbinger and the Star Child. If anyone is attempting to use the razor with regards to the Mass Effect story, it won't work. However, it can be invoked with arguments, especially when there are multiple explanations for why a voice might exist in a particular scene.

Oh I'll agree there. But there is plenty from the game series as a whole to support shep being indoctrinated.

We know from Saren's experience and from the Cerberus crew in the dead reaper, that indoctrination of the subtle variety takes form of mental disturbance. The subject is haunted by nightmares. They suffer from escalating levels of hallucinations. All of which is used by the reapers to reduce the victim to more easily managed behaviors so that they are suggestible to their whims. Throughout the game Shepherd does indeed have repeating nightmares, does seem to suffer headache pain when awaking from them, and their message is that he can't win. No matter what he and the boy are doomed. The Reaper's use that boys image in the catalyst, but where did it come from? Can the Reapers read our thoughts? Or do they know what the boy means to Shepherd, because they created the context with which Shepherd knows him. On a sidenote the art book nonsense is a red herring. They aren't going to put, "hey this kid is the star child with a magic crucible that turns everyone into synthoids so watch him closely, k," in a promotional art book. It sort of destroys the surprise at the end.

The cutscenes also go out of their way to demonstrate that Shepherd is the only witness to this boy's existence through acknowledgement. This is a common tactic in ghost movies to create uncertainty about whether the person exists in our mortal plane or not (sixth sense comes to mind). Though we see the boy run into the shuttle, he has trouble climbing the edge and no one helps him. As he enters not one of the adults even shift to make room. Not even a shudder. Like he were but a mist of himself. Given the level of detail in these opening cut scenes I don't think this is an oversight. Rather a purposeful subtle layer to create doubt. Just like all those scenes in the sixth sense where Bruce Willis is trying to talk to his wife and seemingly she shuts him out and walks right by. I could go on but I think you get my point. I've never read the mass effect books so I can't reference from them. My own thinking comes strictly what we've learned on the matter from the game series.

The biggest issue is the lack of whispers in anything bar the 2 dream sequences.

voices is a major major part of indoctrination in all other examples. Shepard hears voices in the dream sequences but they're not really talking like you'd expet a reaper to.

You never really get a feeling of 'they' or 'him' which is key to the discriptions in ME1, ME2 (derlict reaper) and Ascension, as well as the comic about TIM's origin.

Wouldn't you think they'd mask the whispering to make shepard think this is the real thing?  Shep knows a thing or two about indoctrination, so they'd need to make the experience seem as authetnic as possible, it seems to be a rather finesse/subtle tatic other then straight out dominating his mind.