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[Icinix]

Urumashi wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Elidor109 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Hydralisk wrote...
TIM was going to be a boss fight, with him turning into a Reaper/Husk thing or something, but that was scrapped for the dialogue scene we got.

The one where you can fail.

Also - am I the only one who doesn't believe that TIM is indoctrinated?

I would laugh so hard if it turned out that I made TIM kill himself even though he wasn't really indoctrinated xD

It would be great - but if the ending doesn't happen because its all in Sheps head - I would not be surprised to see the Illusive Man make a return as an ally who may even sacrifice himself to end Shepards indoctrination or realise he is unable to control the Reapers.

that is assuming that he's even alive at all, i'm willing to bet that with the number of points you can build up in the citadel defense force there may be a possiblity that upon arrival at the citadel you're greeted by a well armed milita who was just waiting for backup before going to retake the controll room. It would make a heck of a lot more sense then "and now, everyone is magicly dead."

This would be awesome!

BioWare: So your choices don't matter huh? Check this out!

[Sl4sh3r]

Sl4sh3r wrote...

Interesting development:

I finished my game, yet some epilogue and conflicts etc are set to false.

The Catalyst variable is also set to false....

They really need to make it so I can post images. CLICK THE DAMN LINK YOU FOOLS

[Bfler]

Cyr8 wrote...

Guys, I don't want to rain on your parades on anything, but I feel this must be said. Maybe it's been said already in these 286 pages, but I feel that there's another possibility: that Bioware were flying by the seat of their pants and just made what they think is a satisfactory ending. The original script had a way different ending. But it was leaked, and the ending was found out. So, to save face, I think they just changed the ending, hired a random voice actor to play Star Child, and gave us 3 endings that they thought was good enough (the endings to seem kind of rushed). Maybe anticipating that fans would backlash, they made preemptive comments like "It's all about the journey not the destination" and "a lot of people are not going to be happy."

After the discovery of the old ending, they rushed to put together a new ending and still meet release, and this was the best they could do.

And now they have time to change the new ending.

[TobiTobsen]

Urumashi wrote...

The Bridgeburner wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

I'm back from my nap! Any important infos I missed on the last... uh... 70 pages?

Not much, really. Just a lot of re-hashing of previous observations.

and monty python jokes

I missed the Monty Python jokes? Ah crap!

[Hedera]

Bfler wrote...

Cyr8 wrote...

Guys, I don't want to rain on your parades on anything, but I feel this must be said. Maybe it's been said already in these 286 pages, but I feel that there's another possibility: that Bioware were flying by the seat of their pants and just made what they think is a satisfactory ending. The original script had a way different ending. But it was leaked, and the ending was found out. So, to save face, I think they just changed the ending, hired a random voice actor to play Star Child, and gave us 3 endings that they thought was good enough (the endings to seem kind of rushed). Maybe anticipating that fans would backlash, they made preemptive comments like "It's all about the journey not the destination" and "a lot of people are not going to be happy."

After the discovery of the old ending, they rushed to put together a new ending and still meet release, and this was the best they could do.

And now they have time to change the new ending.

AND it comes off as a genius plan they hatched YEARS ago!  Clever bastards...

[The Bridgeburner]

daviddata1 wrote...

Well Bioware has always said that we should keep our mass effect 3 saves. Why do they say that if they not plan to continue the story somehow?

I think where the caution to this lies, is that "Take Back" Omega DLC has already been hinted at... so BioWare could just be referencing any old DLC. But, I sincerely hope this theory pans out.

[Auresta]

Chatticus Maximus wrote...

Here's something for the masses... (See what I did there ;P )

Okay, seriously though...

Here's another argument FOR Hallucination/Indoctrination, and naturally, apologies if this has already come up - but 286 pages is a bit much for me to get through.

Look at what happens to Shepard in BOTH Blue and Green forms... he HUSKIFIES! His face, body, hands, they all become one with the Reaper tech!

In my humble opinion, I believe the following.

1. BLUE ENDING (bad in this case, as we all agree), you 'control' the Reapers. This means your mind is still strong POST Indoctrination, which means you will be a useful asset -like Saren, or TIM or Rana Thanopsis (don't forget what she did, and she had close to bugger all as much time with Reaper tech as we did!)

2. GREEN ENDING - You're indoctrinated, through and through... you think you're doing something big and brave, but really, your mind is a mess, and you're actually a gibbering, drooling mess post high-order indoctrination mindwipe. You stumble down your merry way to the processing factory, where you 'synthesise'... and promptly get mushed up to become part of the grey goop for Reaper-hull.

3. RED (good!) ending. You beat the system, you fight off the shackles and say no to your defeat, you take that mental gun and defy all the Reapers have put before you... you wake up, battered, bruised, but NOT broken back in the rubble of a laser strike/indoctrination beam blast.

More importantly, in the RED choice, your body does not turn into a Husk.

Thoughts?

This has been echoed throughout. Thanks for bringing it up again, though.

By the way, don't assume that RED is the only one where you do not turn into a husk. It has been theorized, NOT ESTABLISHED that you turn into husks in the other options.

[Omilophile]

Chatticus Maximus wrote...

Here's something for the masses... (See what I did there ;P )

Okay, seriously though...

Here's another argument FOR Hallucination/Indoctrination, and naturally, apologies if this has already come up - but 286 pages is a bit much for me to get through.

Look at what happens to Shepard in BOTH Blue and Green forms... he HUSKIFIES! His face, body, hands, they all become one with the Reaper tech!

In my humble opinion, I believe the following.

1. BLUE ENDING (bad in this case, as we all agree), you 'control' the Reapers. This means your mind is still strong POST Indoctrination, which means you will be a useful asset -like Saren, or TIM or Rana Thanopsis (don't forget what she did, and she had close to bugger all as much time with Reaper tech as we did!)

2. GREEN ENDING - You're indoctrinated, through and through... you think you're doing something big and brave, but really, your mind is a mess, and you're actually a gibbering, drooling mess post high-order indoctrination mindwipe. You stumble down your merry way to the processing factory, where you 'synthesise'... and promptly get mushed up to become part of the grey goop for Reaper-hull.

3. RED (good!) ending. You beat the system, you fight off the shackles and say no to your defeat, you take that mental gun and defy all the Reapers have put before you... you wake up, battered, bruised, but NOT broken back in the rubble of a laser strike/indoctrination beam blast.

More importantly, in the RED choice, your body does not turn into a Husk.

Thoughts?

I don't think he's turning into a husk, I think his face is just melting. In the control one, you see his skin burning off and then he's gone. I'm pretty sure he's just getting vaporized.

[NPH11]

Bfler wrote...

Cyr8 wrote...

Guys, I don't want to rain on your parades on anything, but I feel this must be said. Maybe it's been said already in these 286 pages, but I feel that there's another possibility: that Bioware were flying by the seat of their pants and just made what they think is a satisfactory ending. The original script had a way different ending. But it was leaked, and the ending was found out. So, to save face, I think they just changed the ending, hired a random voice actor to play Star Child, and gave us 3 endings that they thought was good enough (the endings to seem kind of rushed). Maybe anticipating that fans would backlash, they made preemptive comments like "It's all about the journey not the destination" and "a lot of people are not going to be happy."

After the discovery of the old ending, they rushed to put together a new ending and still meet release, and this was the best they could do.

And now they have time to change the new ending.

Or they'll just jump out and say "You were right on that indoctrination thingy! Good work! Endings are fine now right?"

[Chatticus Maximus]

Man, I put in a message and already two pages past it, as of two minutes ago. Awesome!

Although anyway, just wanted to say I think we're missing a big part of the whole argument here. I mention on page 286 that we did NOT huskify in RED choice, whereas in Blue AND Green, we do!

Thoughts?

[Askio]

Further issues. On one reload, I saw my squad all the way back but they didn't respond to anything.
To compound the issue of no breather assistance, anyone who sits down and reads the codex knows that the citadel needs mass effect fields over anything more than a few stories high.

A further issue is Anderson. He clearly states he followed you up, but he got to the console first. How? And if he did, he would have helped Shepard, not leave him to sit there. That implies something right there.
Secondly, how is the Illusive Man able to control Shepard? Implants? That wouldn't work for Anderson then. Nothing in the game mentions mind control either, at least not in this kind of form. And how would Shepard then manage to muster the ability to shoot him versus say, not shooting Anderson?
the point on Anderson seems to be the largest gap in logic for me tho

Modifié par Askio, 13 mars 2012 - 09:02 .

[Omilophile]

Chatticus Maximus wrote...

Man, I put in a message and already two pages past it, as of two minutes ago. Awesome!

Although anyway, just wanted to say I think we're missing a big part of the whole argument here. I mention on page 286 that we did NOT huskify in RED choice, whereas in Blue AND Green, we do!

Thoughts?

Face melt =/= huskification

[Auresta]

Chatticus Maximus wrote...

Man, I put in a message and already two pages past it, as of two minutes ago. Awesome!

Although anyway, just wanted to say I think we're missing a big part of the whole argument here. I mention on page 286 that we did NOT huskify in RED choice, whereas in Blue AND Green, we do!

Thoughts?

\\

Turning husk is a theory. It is not established.

We've also acknowledged that red is the only one that fits in the husk theory, as in you don't turn into it. But it is all STILL VERY MUCH SPECULATION.

[Archeron Smith]

what i don't get about the various endings is:

why, in the control ending, does the citadel close after, and the shockwave destroys big ben in london but in the destroy and synthesis ending big ben remains intact and the citadel is destroyed in the aftermath?

just something odd i noticed, maybe it's just bioware's artistic license, just random but thought i'd throw that in there, assuming it hasn't been mentioned a dozen times already lol

[tb350mdx]

Before I begin, I would like to add a warning that this is a VERY long post and contains a lot of my own speculations and opinions; there is probably plenty of things that people won't agree with.

I'd like to add my two cents. Here's why it's all in Shep's head:

1) Anderson suggests a lot of things to Shep, who agrees with pretty much everything. "Sounds like your description of the Collector base" and "You think they're making a Reaper", to which Shep replies "Sure."
2) The black 'tentacles' at the corners of the screen when you talk to TIM. The Rachni Queen describes this as a symptom of indoctrination. There are also whispering noises at the control panel.
3) Anderson and Shep are in pretty much the same place and there is only one way onto the platform, yet Shep never sees the admiral. This could mean that Anderson is part of Shep's subconcious and is being projected thus.
4) Going on from the subconcious thing, it could be that Anderson and TIM are the proverbial Angel and Devil on Shep's shoulders, two thoughts battling it out in his mind.
5) When TIM shoots himself, the lights in his cybernetics go out and he doesn't do a Saren and get reincarnated, a bit odd considering doing so would give the Reapers the chance to kill Shep once and for all.
6) Shep accepts the Catalyst's arguments without questioning him at all. This is not like Shep.
7) TIM is made to seem like a hero, bathed in Paragon blue and controlling the Reapers. Anderson is made to seem like the villain, bathed in Renegade red and destroying them.
8) Finally, Shep is in a part of the Citadel that has never been seen before, with shifting walls and dark long corridors, the very essence of a nightmare environment.


To add to my points above, I just rewatched all three endings and have come across something kind of interesting:

- In the 'CONTROL' ending, the Catalyst stands by watching the whole time. When Shepard puts her left hand on the console and the whole thing activates, we zoom in on the kid's face and it looks like he is smirking and practically saying "Ha, we won; you're indoctrinated and you let us survive." To me, this path seems like the one TIM was hinting at in his little monologue.

- In the 'Synthesis' ending, the kid is no where to be seen. I don't really know what that means; probably nothing. This path is the on Saren was taking in ME1, where he allowed himself to be 'implanted' with Reaper tech and became the next level of evolution.

--> The one thing I noticed about the two endings above is that SHEP DROPS HER GUN and both scenes (especially control) make a big thing about showing you this. To me, this seems like the final step to giving up. This gun (the M-6 Carnifex if I'm not mistaken) appears out of nowhere when the dream begins and does not only have an unlimited clip but is almost a symbol of defiance and her will to carry on. Shep dropping the gun shows that the Reapers have full control over her mind.

- The final ending, as we all know, is 'Destroy' (which is interstingly the right hand (right as in correct) path). In this, Shep begins by weakly limping towards the conduit and shooting single handed. But as the conduit breaks and the control of the Reaper's is released, Shep grips more tightly on the gun (a sybol of her will and defiance, remember) and finds a huge boost of energy: she stands up taller, grabs the gun with both hands and practically jogs towards the target. This all happens as she moves away from the Kid, who I believe is a figure of Reaper control. As she finally destroys it, the kid disappears in a burst of blue light, as Hackett and Anderson do in the Normandy's comm room. (Could it be a hologram?) In any case, this suggests to me that means that the indoctrination has been broken and this is why the 'Destroy' ending is the only one from which Shep can wake up from. The fire that washes over her at the very end could be a metaphor for cleansing, as in many texts this is the role of fire. This final path should be the obvious one for Shep to take canonically, unless she is a full renegade ass!

- On a slightly unrelated note, the bonus 'Shep Breathing' scene is NOT on the Citadel. Why do I know this? Watch the video and look at her surroundings. She is lying in rubble. STONE rubble. There's no stone in the Citadel's construction, not that I know of; it's all shiny metal. She's in London still and she wakes up after the laser to the face incident.

- Finally, what if (and bear with me on this) there IS an actual reason that you need a high EMS score to use the 'Destroy' option. What if Shep wakes up in London and then goes on to fight the Reapers with the combined fleet, meaning a high EMS is not just nice but is in fact a necessity!

I apologise for the extreme length and incohesive nature of this post. I wrote it as I thought about it. It's probably all just wishful thinking, but I would like to believe that there is a lot of deep thought and symbolism in these endings. If so, my hat comes off to the writers as that would make it one of the best thought out endings I have seen. Still, I want to see a fitting ending with Shep alive where she is reunited with the crew and her LI. I'd love to know what everyone thinks about the point's I've raised here. And don't lose hope; we'll get our ending if it kills us!!

[Icinix]

SandTrout wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Also - am I the only one who doesn't believe that TIM is indoctrinated?

/raises hand

It would be very convenient for Shepard to assume he is and all the points in the game where we thought TIM was being referred to as indoctrinated were actuallly referring to Shepard. I think it would be quite a twist. It seems too easy to think that Cerberus and TIM are the bad guys and have been all this time. 

Sorry, but even if TIM wasn't indoctrinated at the begining of ME3, by the end, his actions and behavior clearly mark him as indoctrinated (assuming that he was real).

This thread is based on the assumption that it wasn't though.

Its like dark matter / dark flow study - we're working backwards and seeing what sticks with what we know.

All through the game and early marketing 'errors' we're led to believe Cerberus is indoctrinated. Then - at the end - we see Cerberus conducting experiments and succeeding in breaking Reaper control - it gets the Repers scared enough they need to take out the base.

When we get to the Cerberus base - we see TIM goes for the upgrades believing he can beat the Reapers control. This is TIM we're talking about. That man sticks to his guns and would never do that until he was certain it would work. He never takes risks with things he can't afford to lose.

I think he's evil, but he would never take than kind of risk with himself. He'd sacrifice a world or two before doing that.

[Auresta]

Archeron Smith wrote...

what i don't get about the various endings is:

why, in the control ending, does the citadel close after, and the shockwave destroys big ben in london but in the destroy and synthesis ending big ben remains intact and the citadel is destroyed in the aftermath?

just something odd i noticed, maybe it's just bioware's artistic license, just random but thought i'd throw that in there, assuming it hasn't been mentioned a dozen times already lol

London is destroyed based on your EMS, not the choice.

[Walrusninja]

The one I will continue to cling to as resounding proof that this is all a big publicity thing and we'll see the actual ending released in a few days is the fact that the ideal ending has Shephard waking up at what appears to be just after Harbinger shot at you.

No matter what you do, or what bits of the theories you agree with, THAT is in the the game already, and as the ideal ending.

Come on Bioware, capitalise.

[lex0r11]

there is so much sense behind all of this after my third day in this thread.

shep said it himself to the catalyst, fighting that damn indoctrination: "but you're taking away our future. without a future we have no hope. without hope we might as well be machines programmed to do what we're told."

Modifié par lex0r11, 13 mars 2012 - 08:53 .

[Chatticus Maximus]

Yeah, maybe not Huskify, but I'm thinking back to what happened with Saren in ME1. When he died, the lovely Reaper-kitty made its appearance. So perhaps that is what happens, when you indoctrinate/die in option Blue and Green, you're actually getting a sneak peek (an insult of "HAHA FOOLED YOU" as it were) into what you have just become - the Shepard for your people, herding them into the maw of the machine...

Deep...

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Cyr8 wrote...

Guys, I don't want to rain on your parades on anything, but I feel this must be said. Maybe it's been said already in these 286 pages, but I feel that there's another possibility: that Bioware were flying by the seat of their pants and just made what they think is a satisfactory ending. The original script had a way different ending. But it was leaked, and the ending was found out. So, to save face, I think they just changed the ending, hired a random voice actor to play Star Child, and gave us 3 endings that they thought was good enough (the endings to seem kind of rushed). Maybe anticipating that fans would backlash, they made preemptive comments like "It's all about the journey not the destination" and "a lot of people are not going to be happy."

After the discovery of the old ending, they rushed to put together a new ending and still meet release, and this was the best they could do.

I believe in the indoctrination theory, there are to many hints both ingame and from devs. That said:

There is a difference between a moderately bad ending and a totally unfrigginbelievable inadequate ending. The ending as it stands now simply cant be the final one because:

Bioware promised us closure. We dont know what happens with:

1) Shepard (Just super vague hints) 
2) Your crew (In the long run, not "stranded on jungle planet, safe the next hour")
3) We still have no idea who made the reapers, and the reapers story is still shallow as hell. We need proper answers here.
4) Where is the final LI scenes? Love interests are to much of importance to players than to just go "Hey maybe they will forget about it"

So to sum it up, we are missing the proper end boss. Finding out where the reapers really originated from + more story on them. We need the final "We made it guys" speech and to hear each characters story as with what they did next and how their lives were. We also need to know how it went with all the races, and their futures. We are missing the all-important Shepard+love interest falling asleep together finally at peace. We are missing the Protheans relief after finally avenging his people...

I could go on forever. That was just from the top of my head. Simply put, the Indoctrination theory MUST be true not only for us fans's sake. But for the sake of Biowares future. The ending isnt bad YET, because if this is added and the indoctrination theory is true the game will be legendary. But... if the ending as it stands is the real ending, then biowares reputation is without doubt pretty much destroyed. 

HOWEVER... twitter replies and strategic comments/silence from devs has pretty much confirmed the suspicions of this thread. So I believe Bioware may have one hell of a surprise for us.

Modifié par SomeoneStoleMyName, 13 mars 2012 - 08:53 .

[Anthraxius Omega]

Cyr8 wrote...

Guys, I don't want to rain on your parades on anything, but I feel this must be said. Maybe it's been said already in these 286 pages, but I feel that there's another possibility: that Bioware were flying by the seat of their pants and just made what they think is a satisfactory ending. The original script had a way different ending. But it was leaked, and the ending was found out. So, to save face, I think they just changed the ending, hired a random voice actor to play Star Child, and gave us 3 endings that they thought was good enough (the endings to seem kind of rushed). Maybe anticipating that fans would backlash, they made preemptive comments like "It's all about the journey not the destination" and "a lot of people are not going to be happy."

After the discovery of the old ending, they rushed to put together a new ending and still meet release, and this was the best they could do.

Although this may be a point, i doubt, that EA/BW leave so many issues unresolved. Beside indoctrination and whatever other assumption we may have, few things are not right, and need clarification.

1. Why do Shepards Implants flare up bright orange on the "Citadel"?

2. Why does Shepard survive only in the Renegade option? (Assuming my playthrough, 7k+ War Assets, 100% Paragon, 0% Renegade)

3. Why does the Catalyst, i.e. the starchild, come into existence now? Just by hinting its abilities and power, why did u need Sovereign in ME1 to access the Citadel manually after the last Prothean scientists rewrote the keeper code? Had the Catalyst no influence over the server race that the created for the only porpose to maintain the Citadel and open the relay to dark space?

All these questions need answers, Bioware will not leave them like that. And we are not talking about an ending that we cant agree on, but about open issues that need closure.

[Hedera]

Archeron Smith wrote...

what i don't get about the various endings is:

why, in the control ending, does the citadel close after, and the shockwave destroys big ben in london but in the destroy and synthesis ending big ben remains intact and the citadel is destroyed in the aftermath?

just something odd i noticed, maybe it's just bioware's artistic license, just random but thought i'd throw that in there, assuming it hasn't been mentioned a dozen times already lol

With a low enough EMS, Big Ben can be destroyed in both Red and Green.  

As for the Citadel, the Control ending purportedly gives you control of the Reapers, which, as we know, emanates from the Guardian on the Citadel.

[TcomJ]

As how these clues make so much sense, it's still a very bad poolr written ending. The ending is not good at all. It's rushed, doesn't have an epilogue.... ITS NOT EVEN AN ENDING!!!

[Hedera]

TcomJ wrote...

As how these clues make so much sense, it's still a very bad poolr written ending. The ending is not good at all. It's rushed, doesn't have an epilogue.... ITS NOT EVEN AN ENDING!!!

Thus the thread.