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[Kitten Tactics]

Mr Massakka wrote...

Kitten Tactics wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

As much as your theory is plausible, I think it's just a dream-thought.
I agree with every each of your points, but why would they do that? Why would BioWare force such a inconvenience throughout the fans? It makes sense from our point of view, but what about theirs?

What better way to prevent the real ending from leaking that by providing a false one?

... with this ending, and the resulting hate on ME3 throughout the net, is it worth the reputation that they have sacrificed... the amount of customers they lost because of that?
 It just doesn't make sense to me.

In my opinion, it would be part of a plan.  They aren't done yet.  If this were all true and they pulled it off, the ending would be amazing.  The good will would be back.

[omgBAMF]

AvianCat wrote...

omgBAMF wrote...

Just played the final part again and chose destroy (first time for me). Listening to the kid... he REALLY doesn't want you to choose destroy. He makes you feel guilty by saying you will destroy the geth, and he adds "even you are partly synthetic." This shouldn't matter to him because the other options end in Shepard's demise anyway. The fact you can still live after destroying them makes the kid's claim false.

Another thing... control and synthesis do not require any input from the player other than walking. Destroy actually makes you shoot the gun... you have to will yourself to do it (fighting the reaper control in a way).

Very interesting......


ASLO: how in the hell are you walking and talking OUTSIDE the citadel... in open space?

Control requires you too press the A button (or whatever else for PS3 ans PC players) but Destroy does require the most input.

That's true... adding a possible inclination that synthesis is what the reapers really want you to do, and control is just as good since they will still live.

[FugitiveMind]

krystalevenstar wrote...

FugitiveMind wrote...

The turning into a husk bit is a tad irrelevant though, as per this line of thinking, all of the "endings" are only occuring in Shepard's mind anyhow.

The entire Anderson saying it reminded him of shepard's description of the collector ship, the blue column called the conduit, the familiar platform...

Everything after the laser was a conglomeration of things Shepard already experienced pulled together to create the illusion of somewhere new. That sounds like mind domination to me. Of course the citadel looks familiar but not, it's constructed out of what Shepard thinks it might be looking like by the hallucination....

Wow, I hope that made sense to someone else, it does to me but some things get lost when trying to type it out.

It's like trying to discuss the end of the 2nd Matrix movie all over again...

This fits with what I just said about TIM possibly dying in the exact same way as Saren did, fighting his indoctrination in ME1

Looking at the post times, we mustive been typing concurrently...

It is good to see though that using the same information and previous assumptions, more than one of us is coming to the same independant conclusions.

Let's me know I'm not completely off my rocker

[humes spork]

lookingglassmind wrote...

A good question. This is why I don't think Shepard was indoctrinated. The dreams of the child were attempts at indoctrination that Shepard resisted. The final part with the Catalyst is Harbinger trying like crazy to indoctrinate; it's up to you whether or not it succeeds.

Like I said earlier in the thread, if the hallucination theory is true I have my doubts it's an attempt to Indoctrinate.

[Greed1914]

RussianOrc wrote...

have anyone already seen this new game+ ending?

Yes.  Importing a previous save lets you see it the first time.  It doesn't help at all.  All it does is basically tell you to play again.

[Yuzna75]

Kitten Tactics wrote...

Yuzna75 wrote...

If it was all indoctrination why didn't the VI react towards you but freaked out when Leng arrived? This might have been answered already, but thread is getting bloated. I like this theory in general, but I still think bioware screwed up and we are giving them away to fix it. There are just as many hints to the child just being the image of those shepard couldn't save, and that the force controlling the reapers just chose to appear as that form. I really hope you guys are right, but I am not convinced yet. Still a lot of holes that need stuffing.

It could be as simple as Shepard NOT being fully indoctrinated.  Not yet.  

We're working to stuff the holes, give us time

Trust me I am doing the same, but it still feels like we are doing biowares job for them. But I guess if it actually gives us a better ending I am all for it. In the end we will probably never know what was the original ending cause bioware won't admit that they screwed up if the can actually fix it.

[k8ee]

I always expected Shep to have to fight indoctrination in ME3, and this would be the perfect way... if it really is a dream. All the talk about dragons teeth and turning into a husk is a moot point because it isn't real - we're just seeing how her/his mind is being reaped if anything but choosing to destroy the reapers is chosen (in his/her mind). Shep has compromised with the reapers = failure.

[krystalevenstar]

thePredator50 wrote...

Yuzna75 wrote...

If it was all indoctrination why didn't the VI react towards you but freaked out when Leng arrived? This might have been answered already, but thread is getting bloated. I like this theory in general, but I still think bioware screwed up and we are giving them away to fix it. There are just as many hints to the child just being the image of those shepard couldn't save, and that the force controlling the reapers just chose to appear as that form. I really hope you guys are right, but I am not convinced yet. Still a lot of holes that need stuffing.

The Prothean VI saying that he doesn't sense indoctrination in Shepard is the biggest wrench in this theory.

Shepard might not have been completely indoctrinated by that point, or Shepard's Cerberus implants may prevent the VI from being able to sense it. Easily explained regardless if this is what's going on.

[Stalker]

humes spork wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

Why would BioWare force such a inconvenience throughout the fans?

ME3 was the most eagerly-anticipated game in years, and one of the more insecure projects during development since...what? Half Life 2? The script leak, the beta leak, the pirated Russian retail copy that hit bittorrent, the inevitable leaks from the space edition...the game project was about as secure and tight-lipped as a Thai cathouse.

Plus, you have the push to avert the resale market through online passes, and curb piracy. EA and BW both incentivize online passes through periodic free content releases for pass-holders. BW and EA both have been oddly quiet about Alliance Network, especially considering how strongly BW touted Cerberus Network and EA touted that and the BF VIP pass system.

So, put a fake-out ending in the retail release and withhold the real ending in the form of free DLC through Alliance Network. It's a bird multikill with one stone.

hmmm... I might understand it now... it could possible make sense...
Okay, I have hopes... even if these hopes kinda make me sound naive.

[Kloborgg711]

 I was asked to repost this here from the mega thread

"
The problem with the indoctrination theory is multifold. I definitely understand the kind of forced positive thinking that makes people want to think it's true, but it's really a pretty flawed one. First of all, when does the "indoctrination" begin? 

Is it all a dream starting when Shepard wakes up and his squad suddenly disappeared along with Harbinger, and yet Anderson made it inside? Most convincingly, this would explain why Shepard awakens in a pile of dark rubble when he supposedly got caught in a space explosion. This would clear up the confusion associated with the whole scenario, and yet that would entail that the entire scene with Anderson and TIM are just figments of imagination, which seems incredibly unlikely. So no, I think we have to accept that Bioware just didn't feel like telling us what actually happened to our squadmates, and instead insinuate the Harbinger just ran away after injuring Shepard a little. Too bad, but I can't see another way.

Next, there's the theory that Shepard is only unconscious after Hackett tells him to activate the thing. This is also appealing for a number of reasons. It sets up the 3 buttons as the "path to indoctrination" and makes sense of why in the hell Shepard sees the Catalyst as that annoying little brat. But then, it doesn't make sense. What DOES happen after Hackett asks Shepard for assistance? How does Shepard somehow miraculously wake up in rubble? 

Also, if the whole sequence involves a dream sequence, why the "epilogue" in the form of Grandpa A-Hole Starwatcher? Why the text about Shepard becoming a legend.. if it's all in his mind?

And really, how stupid would Bioware have to be to do this? I know a lot of people are excited and think this would be an awesome idea, but that's because we're desperate for some kind of happy ending. In reality, how much a slap in the face would it be for Bioware to troll its entire fan base like this? How much of a jerk move would it be to actually keep the real ending secret in a later-released DLC?

No, I think this theory is the result of trying to piece together various plot holes, and the fact that it actually makes more sense than taking it seriously is nothing more then a testament to how bad and inconclusive this ending really was. "

[MPSai]

thePredator50 wrote...

Yuzna75 wrote...

If it was all indoctrination why didn't the VI react towards you but freaked out when Leng arrived? This might have been answered already, but thread is getting bloated. I like this theory in general, but I still think bioware screwed up and we are giving them away to fix it. There are just as many hints to the child just being the image of those shepard couldn't save, and that the force controlling the reapers just chose to appear as that form. I really hope you guys are right, but I am not convinced yet. Still a lot of holes that need stuffing.

The Prothean VI saying that he doesn't sense indoctrination in Shepard is the biggest wrench in this theory.

Then perhaps it could be that Shepard wasn't being indoctrinated until the end and the dreams were in her/his subconcious. People have said perhaps the last dream where the kid runs to Shepard and they both burn is a warning not to trust the AI that takes the kid's form. 

Or it's just foreshadowing that Shepard isn't likely to come out of this alive. Still if we're talking retcon it can still work

[netarchy]

krystalevenstar wrote...

thePredator50 wrote...

Yuzna75 wrote...

If it was all indoctrination why didn't the VI react towards you but freaked out when Leng arrived? This might have been answered already, but thread is getting bloated. I like this theory in general, but I still think bioware screwed up and we are giving them away to fix it. There are just as many hints to the child just being the image of those shepard couldn't save, and that the force controlling the reapers just chose to appear as that form. I really hope you guys are right, but I am not convinced yet. Still a lot of holes that need stuffing.

The Prothean VI saying that he doesn't sense indoctrination in Shepard is the biggest wrench in this theory.

Shepard might not have been completely indoctrinated by that point, or Shepard's Cerberus implants may prevent the VI from being able to sense it. Easily explained regardless if this is what's going on.

Since the child could represent the reaper *attempts* at indoctrination, Shepard really is simply not indoctrinated; there is nothing for the VI to detect.

[dporowski]

@Kloborgg:  Well... Um. Actually, as someone cheesed off about the current "endings", if this is what they did I would swear VIOLENTLY for about 10 minutes, trail off, laugh to myself, and fire up the new bits immediately. If confronted with the dude behind it, I'd want to slug him, then pick him up and buy him a beer.

I'd downright ADMIRE that degree of dirty pool. All I could respond with would be "Well played INDEED."

Modifié par dporowski, 11 mars 2012 - 02:00 .

[Yuzna75]

MPSai wrote...

thePredator50 wrote...

Yuzna75 wrote...

If it was all indoctrination why didn't the VI react towards you but freaked out when Leng arrived? This might have been answered already, but thread is getting bloated. I like this theory in general, but I still think bioware screwed up and we are giving them away to fix it. There are just as many hints to the child just being the image of those shepard couldn't save, and that the force controlling the reapers just chose to appear as that form. I really hope you guys are right, but I am not convinced yet. Still a lot of holes that need stuffing.

The Prothean VI saying that he doesn't sense indoctrination in Shepard is the biggest wrench in this theory.

Then perhaps it could be that Shepard wasn't being indoctrinated until the end and the dreams were in her/his subconcious. People have said perhaps the last dream where the kid runs to Shepard and they both burn is a warning not to trust the AI that takes the kid's form. 

Or it's just foreshadowing that Shepard isn't likely to come out of this alive. Still if we're talking retcon it can still work

That's the way I saw it through the entire game, the kid was the representation of everything he couldn't save and that the last one was a foreshadow that it would all end badly for shepard. The fact that no one seemed to notice the kid or that there was noices when the kid was in the vent could all be explained by many other things as well. I think Kloborgg711 was right about it all, but at least all this talk makes the ending suck a little bit less.

[Drewskii]

Kitten Tactics wrote...

-The endgame scenario is Indoctrination/Manipulation from the Reapers (Harbinger) trying to force you into choosing to let the Reapers live. Shepard is not awake during the final scenes.

-Shepard wakes up after Destroy, because the Reaper's hold is diminished. Shepard does not awake in the other 2 "endings" because you are fully indoctrinated by the choices you made to allow the Reapers to win. "Assuming Control!"

-During Shepard's final dream with the child, chatter can be heard over the radio about nobody making it to the beam. Shepard is still in London.

-When Shepard wakes up at the end of Destroy, he/she is waking up in London, after being hit with the laser.

First post here on the BSN , so hello. Clearly this whole thing has created a phenomena that no other game has (to my knowledge) Anyway....

I think this is a fantastic theory, the whole hollucination bit, and I know it's incomplete. However, after kicking this around with my brother who also recently finished the trilogy, the above quoted pieces leave these holes.

- If it's all a hallucination and/or dream, then how can the "aftermath" be explained (Normandy crash, Mass Relays going boom, and "Stargazer"), if Shepard never actually made it to the beam?

Outside of that, it makes a great deal of sense, and am looking forward to seeing what can come of it.

Still stunned at how the ending came about, and how the community has responded. Will be interesting to see what happens going forward...

(Great work, by the way)

Modifié par Drewskii, 11 mars 2012 - 02:03 .

[k8ee]

Kloborgg711 wrote...

 I was asked to repost this here from the mega thread

"
The problem with the indoctrination theory is multifold. I definitely understand the kind of forced positive thinking that makes people want to think it's true, but it's really a pretty flawed one. First of all, when does the "indoctrination" begin? 

Is it all a dream starting when Shepard wakes up and his squad suddenly disappeared along with Harbinger, and yet Anderson made it inside? Most convincingly, this would explain why Shepard awakens in a pile of dark rubble when he supposedly got caught in a space explosion. This would clear up the confusion associated with the whole scenario, and yet that would entail that the entire scene with Anderson and TIM are just figments of imagination, which seems incredibly unlikely. So no, I think we have to accept that Bioware just didn't feel like telling us what actually happened to our squadmates, and instead insinuate the Harbinger just ran away after injuring Shepard a little. Too bad, but I can't see another way.

Next, there's the theory that Shepard is only unconscious after Hackett tells him to activate the thing. This is also appealing for a number of reasons. It sets up the 3 buttons as the "path to indoctrination" and makes sense of why in the hell Shepard sees the Catalyst as that annoying little brat. But then, it doesn't make sense. What DOES happen after Hackett asks Shepard for assistance? How does Shepard somehow miraculously wake up in rubble? 

Also, if the whole sequence involves a dream sequence, why the "epilogue" in the form of Grandpa A-Hole Starwatcher? Why the text about Shepard becoming a legend.. if it's all in his mind?

And really, how stupid would Bioware have to be to do this? I know a lot of people are excited and think this would be an awesome idea, but that's because we're desperate for some kind of happy ending. In reality, how much a slap in the face would it be for Bioware to troll its entire fan base like this? How much of a jerk move would it be to actually keep the real ending secret in a later-released DLC?

No, I think this theory is the result of trying to piece together various plot holes, and the fact that it actually makes more sense than taking it seriously is nothing more then a testament to how bad and inconclusive this ending really was. "

In no way would I be bothered by a DLC ending released in a week that tells us that entire part was a fight against indoctrination. Desperation? Maybe, but it's still better story telling than what we got.

[NoUserNameHere]

This halucination interpretation of the Catalyst choices (I'll call it the Last Temptation of Shep) fits with the idea of TIM and Saren having the illusion of freedom and/or control. If this option was aknowledged in-game the ending would be far stronger for it.

[humes spork]

Son of a b*tch I just remembered something.

Vega constantly complains about that humming noise in the cargo bay that no one else seems to be able to hear. Every god damn time I heard that I made the joke somebody snuck a Reaper Indoctrination device onboard the Normandy, because Indoctrination is carried out through infrasound.

And to think I spent a damned hour in that cargo bay actually hunting for an Indoctrination device since I figured it would have something to do with a companion quest for Vega.

F*ck me sideways with a rubber hose.

Modifié par humes spork, 11 mars 2012 - 02:05 .

[lavosslayer]

lookingglassmind wrote...

A post from another thread:

Kloborgg711 wrote...

The problem with the indoctrination theory is multifold. I definitely understand the kind of forced positive thinking that makes people want to think it's true, but it's really a pretty flawed one. First of all, when does the "indoctrination" begin?

The Indoctrination began on the research station on the astroid in the Arrival DLC for ME2. Shepard began his indoctrination from Object Rho. This indoctrination is only strengthend when he is confronted by Harbinger and sequentially knocked unconscious rendering him helpless to fight against the suggestion of the Reapers.

Is it all a dream starting when Shepard wakes up and his squad suddenly disappeared along with Harbinger, and yet Anderson made it inside? Most convincingly, this would explain why Shepard awakens in a pile of dark rubble when he supposedly got caught in a space explosion. This would clear up the confusion associated with the whole scenario, and yet that would entail that the entire scene with Anderson and TIM are just figments of imagination, which seems incredibly unlikely. So no, I think we have to accept that Bioware just didn't feel like telling us what actually happened to our squadmates, and instead insinuate the Harbinger just ran away after injuring Shepard a little. Too bad, but I can't see another way.

I don't know what space explosion your referring to but I also think its not much of a stretch for Shepard to be able to imagine this scenario happening with the aid of the reapers. One only needs to read the Mass Effect books to how the Reapers controlled Paul Grayson to know that they use things familer to the person to get them to do their bidding. Which completely explains them using TIM and Anderson the strongest positive and negative force in Shepards mind that are in a corporeal form.

Next, there's the theory that Shepard is only unconscious after Hackett tells him to activate the thing. This is also appealing for a number of reasons. It sets up the 3 buttons as the "path to indoctrination" and makes sense of why in the hell Shepard sees the Catalyst as that annoying little brat. But then, it doesn't make sense. What DOES happen after Hackett asks Shepard for assistance? How does Shepard somehow miraculously wake up in rubble?

The entire event of Shepard making it to the beam and dealing with the child is all part of the hallucination/dream taking place immediately after being hit by Harbingers attack. He is still lying in the rubble on Earth and only awakens from that state if he chooses to defy the Reapers suggestion and destroy them regardless which if he does you see the cutscene of him take that deep breath in the rubble as he awakens from the hallucination/dream.

Also, if the whole sequence involves a dream sequence, why the "epilogue" in the form of Grandpa A-Hole Starwatcher? Why the text about Shepard becoming a legend.. if it's all in his mind?

Shepard does become a legend but we just haven't seen the real actions that lead to him becoming so. The stargazer is there to ensure the gamer that there is more to come...meaning Shepard's story isn't quite over yet..

And really, how stupid would Bioware have to be to do this? I know a lot of people are excited and think this would be an awesome idea, but that's because we're desperate for some kind of happy ending. In reality, how much a slap in the face would it be for Bioware to troll its entire fan base like this? How much of a jerk move would it be to actually keep the real ending secret in a later-released DLC?

No, I think this theory is the result of trying to piece together various plot holes, and the fact that it actually makes more sense than taking it seriously is nothing more then a testament to how bad and inconclusive this ending really was.

Apparently you've never played Knights of the Old Republic...this is very reminiscent of something Bioware does in that game although it didn't involve witholding the final ending but it makes perfect sense to throw this insane twist out of left field...I think they really want  people to remember this game and series and I can't think of a better way to do so then to make the ending reveal so big that it gets every fan involved begging for answers and then showing them the truth of it all! This would definitely do that!

Modifié par lavosslayer, 11 mars 2012 - 02:09 .

[lookingglassmind]

Drewskii wrote...

- If it's all a hallucination and/or dream, then how can the "aftermath" be explained (Normandy crash, Mass Relays going boom, and "Stargazer").

Hallucinations of a dying brain. Shepard's morality making her/him imagine those things as a coping mechanism as death encroaches.

Modifié par lookingglassmind, 11 mars 2012 - 02:05 .

[k8ee]

@Drewskii
Shep imagining the consequences... I mean, you see your LI on the ship - if you took them in the assault, then that idea is just wishful thinking. The star gazers? Shep's desire for future generations to never forget the sacrifice?

[Stalker]

What kinda makes me wonder:
Why is BioWare keeping so quiet about such an obvious flaw? I can't find a single comment on from them. Could this a possible sign that this theory might be correct? They would try to justify it, if that's the real ending, wouldn't they?

[Kitten Tactics]

Drewskii wrote...

- If it's all a hallucination and/or dream, then how can the "aftermath" be explained (Normandy crash, Mass Relays going boom, and "Stargazer").

So far my best guess is that showing the Normany crew (including members who were wiped out by Harbinger's laser) stepping on to a lush planet is the reapers putting Shepard's mind at ease.  It only makes the process easier.

The relays going boom are just a visual used because Shepard was told that was one of the consequences, so they show that too.

Stargazer has nothing to do with the ending.  I like to think of Stargzaer as a completely separate universe.  Maybe ours.  He's just relaying the story, as the story has been relayed to us.

[lookingglassmind]

humes spork wrote...

Son of a b*tch I just remembered something.

Vega constantly complains about that humming noise in the cargo bay that no one else seems to be able to hear. Every god damn time I heard that I made the joke somebody snuck a Reaper Indoctrination device onboard the Normandy, because Indoctrination is carried out through infrasound.

F*ck me sideways with a rubber hose.

....

Goddamn.

[Geda173]

MPSai wrote...

thePredator50 wrote...

Yuzna75 wrote...

If it was all indoctrination why didn't the VI react towards you but freaked out when Leng arrived? This might have been answered already, but thread is getting bloated. I like this theory in general, but I still think bioware screwed up and we are giving them away to fix it. There are just as many hints to the child just being the image of those shepard couldn't save, and that the force controlling the reapers just chose to appear as that form. I really hope you guys are right, but I am not convinced yet. Still a lot of holes that need stuffing.

The Prothean VI saying that he doesn't sense indoctrination in Shepard is the biggest wrench in this theory.

Then perhaps it could be that Shepard wasn't being indoctrinated until the end and the dreams were in her/his subconcious. People have said perhaps the last dream where the kid runs to Shepard and they both burn is a warning not to trust the AI that takes the kid's form. 

Or it's just foreshadowing that Shepard isn't likely to come out of this alive. Still if we're talking retcon it can still work

Indoctrination could be a very fragile thing, that can only have a grip around people that lack the will power to overcome it. When the reapers beam nearly kills Shepard he becomes unconscious. That could be the time Harbinger tries to overcome Shepard, presenting the 3 Choices. 2 of them ultimately leading to Shepards death (synthetic life - Reaper code. Controlling Reapers - best case: postponing the cycle for another 50000 years. What does it matter to machines. People will think the Reapers have been beaten. People will let their guard down because they believe the Reapers are history. Reapers come back 5000 years later doing a clean sweep).

The only decision that could break the framework of indoctrination that Harbinger tries to establish is destroying the Reapers. But also killing the Geth and damaging himself (implants) und a lot of the tech people are using is leaving a sour note, so its not appealing to him. The only time we see Shepard taking a breath in the rubble is when we choose the "renegade" ending. Destroying the reapers also destroys the indoctrination attempt and Shepard regains consciousness. Therefore he should be clear to go.

Oh my, I hope this makes sense. Somehow.

Modifié par Geda173, 11 mars 2012 - 02:06 .