57139 réponses à ce sujet

[lavosslayer]

lol now its time to go to bed again and dread the 50+ pages to read in the morning...oh Mass Effect...you own my soul!

[Tashakov]

Deviant Ingredient wrote...

Ok I've read that people think that 'destroy' means Shepard fought off indoctrination and 'control' means s/he was indoctrinated. What of merge? Would Shepard be like the new harbinger or freaky Illusive Man 2.0? Also what are the theories for if Shepard picked 'destroy' but died?

More akin to Saren. TIM wanted to Control the Reapers, flat-out simple. Saren believed that synthetics and organics could "coexist" and heavily augmented himself, turning into a sort of hybrid.

And as far as I'm concerned, Effective Military Strength isn't about how strong your army actually is, but how strong Shepard *feels* it is. Following that logic, having a high EMS allows Shepard to not only resist indoctrination, but also survive by having hope for the fight. Whereas with a low score, even resisting indoctrination, Shepard "gives up" the fight, feeling that the battle is already lost.

Parallel to that, having a very low EMS only offers Destroy as a mockery, since the Reapers have no need for Shepard if the battle is going so well. Only by becoming more of a threat do they see it as worth the effort to try, offering power in the form of Control and "peace" in the form of Synthesis.

That's my best attempt at reasoning the EMS factoring into the endings, when Shepard still makes it far enough to impress the Catalyst regardless.

Modifié par adrianlocke647, 13 mars 2012 - 09:51 .

[Auresta]

Going to bed. Reposting because it's important:

My advice to EVERYONE is this:

When you find evidence, find counter evidence and present both sides. It is not enough to say that Shepard gains strength in Destroy. He does, but he also does so in Control and Synthesis. It is not enough to say that the presence of trees on the run down are straight from the dream and thus must mean he is dreaming/hallucinating/indoctrinated. It could be simple oversight AND the presence of ****ed up trees is always in devastated areas.

Presenting both sides reminds us to keep things in perspective and strengthen our argument. I'm tired of seeing people post "evidence" without presenting the other side to look at. If you don't, people bandwagon on the evidence without ever considering the counterargument.

Someone presents the counterargument, it just gets buried.

[BigBossBoo]

Kioux wrote...

Only after my first playthrough did I stumble over the indoctrination theory and while I had difficulties to accept it at first - it actually does seem to make sense now.
I mean there were already a few parts that got my attention, like the symbolism of "walking into the light" an obvious temptation attempt. In the dreams, it wasn't just memories but also things the dead never said. And yes, the fact that we cannot turn away from the child but are forced in an unpleasant way (that's how I felt about it at least) to turn around is supporting the theory from my side as well. Additionally, and I only had this happen once so far, so I cannot confirm this for good - but when I was in the last dream sequence (after finally being with the LI again - in my case Kaidan) I was actually able to run a bit further away from the child and the further I got, the louder I heard Kaidan's voice calling "Shepard!" - as if it was the one good thing that tried to get him going - until the child forces us to turn around. I'll have to test that again though,
Then there is the thing with TIMs appearance - only a few hours before hitting earth, he seemed to look somewhat normal but on the Citadel he was so obviously changed that it seemed odd. Additionally - the vid at the Cerberus base - the last entry, moments where he supposedly got the implants... it is the only time where he seems actively aware of the camera and shuts it off. I can't pinpoint why this is bothering me but it is.Almost seems like a hint, or a call for help. There has been some moments when he actually seems... empathic? understanding? supporting? with Shepard. Maybe I'm reading too much into it - as if he is trying to warn Shepard without obviously doing so.
Anyway, thanks a lot for the input on Anderson, the black fog, and a lot of the other implications on the theory, it does help to cope with the ending atrocities. And if we actually get a 'real ending' DLC - it would just help everyone. Those who like the endings as they are could stick with them and those of us who want happy endings, the LI at the side and the look at my first Krogan godchild would finally be able to sleep with a smile again instead of clawing into the hope of having figured out the great cue behind those... those poor excuses.... Nyar!

Maybe TIM is being indoctrinated between ME2 and throughout ME3 because of the reaper heart/brain.  However TIM is trying to fight it off, due to his resolve to help humanity and strong will.  He may have even been fighting it earlier than ME2 as Javik said "every cycle has someone who wants to control the reapers."  Maybe he was pushing Shepard in the smaller ways as defiance to his indoctrination but couldn't fully beat it.

[MordiMoro]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

MordiMoro wrote...

If the ending is a hallucination / indoctrination ... because the last scene with the grandfather?

But he has one more story to tell...

And traumatize the child with the death of Shepard / destruction universe?
He may have been hasty ... but it is said that the ending is different...the grandfather says that travel between the stars ...  perhaps he has not told her everything, but the scene Normansdy/ jungle is the real final.

indoctrination theory ---> first person narrative
ending grandfather ---> third person narrative

makes no sense ...

Modifié par MordiMoro, 13 mars 2012 - 09:56 .

[Rolling Flame]

@Auresta, yeah, I know, but I was kinda worried about Garrus after finishing my playthrough yesterday, y'know, not being able to see them. Sort of makes me feel better and he and Liara were out of the way.

Anyway, if the endings were as is, and BioWare has gone into damage control, then all they have to do is look at this thread and the great ideas within to craft something pretty interesting!

[Gowienczyk]

Deviant Ingredient wrote...

Deviant Ingredient


Joined: 2011-07-31
Ok I've read that people think that 'destroy' means Shepard fought off indoctrination and 'control' means s/he was indoctrinated. What of merge? Would Shepard be like the new harbinger or freaky Illusive Man 2.0? Also what are the theories for if Shepard picked 'destroy' but died?

Sorry for repeating but I am curious.
 

some theories I've seen:

1) shep becomes fuel
2) shep becomes like the last protheans (collectors)
3) indoctrination #2

Modifié par Gowienczyk, 13 mars 2012 - 09:52 .

[Headshotmaster]

AllThatJazz wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

A few pages ago, someone mentioned that the 'fake ending' thing has been done before, in a graphic novel series (Sin City 4: That Yellow ****), in this case an apparent ending, followed by several pages of readers' letters, followed by the real ending. Isn't Mac Walters a huge comic book fan? Would stand to sense that he knows about the ending of this graphic novel if so, and maybe thought it would be a great idea for the game ... dunno, might lend further credence to the idea that Mass Effect 3 isn't done yet .... fingers crossed!x

Still poor delivery making us wait this long to get a proper ending. If they wanted to do something like that, they should have done it after our current closing cinematic, or at the latest, after the credits.

By making us wait this long, they are making us bitter, which will translate to our perception of the true ending they provide.

Thing is though, if the real ending had been tacked straight on to the end of the original game, then that ending would have been datamined/leaked, and wouldn't have been a surprise for anyone ... if they delay the release of the ending until after the game comes out in Asia, then everyone gets it at the same time (roughly) and they avoid the kind of horrific spoilage that's been happening over the past few months all over the internet.

Honestly, if they did this, I would not be bitter at all. I would be thrilled that Bio got one up on all the rear-ends who posted spoilers where anyone could find them (I'm not including Xoisite and Tank, obviously). And also thrilled that the game has actually ended much better than I originally thought.  I'm still angry at the idiot who posted end-game spoilers in the comments of an ME3 trailer on YouTube, which is how I found out how ME3 finished.

Eh, it's probably still wishful thinking anyway.

Sorry for the derailment. Indoctrination Hallucination FTW 

I think this might actually be what's going on.

I think that might be why werestart the game right before the cerberus base assault. So if there is an update, we dont have to sift through saves, and restart from scratch in order to get the proper ending.

But that's just me being hopeful.

[Dougremer]

[quote]AllThatJazz wrote...

[quote]Dougremer wrote...

[quote]SandTrout wrote...

[quote]AllThatJazz wrote...

By making us wait this long, they are making us bitter, which will translate to our perception of the true ending they provide.

[/quote]

I don't mind waiting. Cause I don't want this series to end

/D

[/quote]

It wasn't me that said I'm bitter, I'm wearing my hopeful hat!  And I totally agree with you, Mass Effect is just too good to end ... x

[/quote]

Hmm! Maybe the quote thing screw things up!
yeah, it's a grea series and I would love to see more to this last game

/D

[ShotyMcFat]

Here's something you may want to consider

Your told that the crucible has never been finished before and that nobody knows its exact functionality everyone just assumes its a weapon of sort which destroys the reapers. Shepard most likely believes that that's what it does which is why it is a weapon in the indoctrination. If it was an indoctrination its current functionality may still be unknown and it may not of been the weapon.

[Chatticus Maximus]

Deviant Ingredient wrote...

Deviant Ingredient


Joined: 2011-07-31
Ok I've read that people think that 'destroy' means Shepard fought off indoctrination and 'control' means s/he was indoctrinated. What of merge? Would Shepard be like the new harbinger or freaky Illusive Man 2.0? Also what are the theories for if Shepard picked 'destroy' but died?

Sorry for repeating but I am curious.
 

I put this in hoping you'd see it mate, so here's hoping you see it this time


In my humble opinion, I believe the following.

1. BLUE ENDING (bad in this case, as we all agree), you 'control' the Reapers. This means your mind is still strong POST Indoctrination, which means you will be a useful asset -like Saren, or TIM or Rana Thanopsis (don't forget what she did, and she had close to bugger all as much time with Reaper tech as we did!)

2. GREEN ENDING - You're indoctrinated, through and through... you think you're doing something big and brave, but really, your mind is a mess, and you're actually a gibbering, drooling mess post high-order indoctrination mindwipe. You stumble down your merry way to the processing factory, where you 'synthesise'... and promptly get mushed up to become part of the grey goop for Reaper-hull.

3. RED (good!) ending. You beat the system, you fight off the shackles and say no to your defeat, you take that mental gun and defy all the Reapers have put before you... you wake up, battered, bruised, but NOT broken back in the rubble of a laser strike/indoctrination beam blast.

EDIT:  As for Dying on RED, well that's because of a lower EMS... you took too long to get out of your mindwipe, and you have bled out from your self-inflicted wounds /fried your mind defeating the Indoctrination.

Modifié par Chatticus Maximus, 13 mars 2012 - 09:56 .

[holyshock18]

The only reason i am having doubts about the ending is simply beacuse. The lack of writing. How they magicly teleport up to the normandy and so on. Its simply to weird for me that. All of a sudden those writers who wrote the best story in a game ever. Just give up and write so many mistakes in the last 10 min. I just dont believe they would do that.

[Dougremer]

adrianlocke647 wrote...

Deviant Ingredient wrote...

Ok I've read that people think that 'destroy' means Shepard fought off indoctrination and 'control' means s/he was indoctrinated. What of merge? Would Shepard be like the new harbinger or freaky Illusive Man 2.0? Also what are the theories for if Shepard picked 'destroy' but died?

More akin to Saren. TIM wanted to Control the Reapers, flat-out simple. Saren believed that synthetics and organics could "coexist" and heavily augmented himself, turning into a sort of hybrid.

And as far as I'm concerned, Effective Military Strength isn't about how strong your army actually is, but how strong Shepard *feels* it is. Following that logic, having a high EMS allows Shepard to not only resist indoctrination, but also survive by having hope for the fight. Whereas with a low score, even resisting indoctrination, Shepard "gives up" the fight, feeling that the battle is already lost.

Parallel to that, having a very low EMS only offers Destroy as a mockery, since the Reapers have no need for Shepard if the battle is going so well. Only by becoming more of a threat do they see it as worth the effort to try, offering power in the form of Control and "peace" in the form of Synthesis.

That's my best attempt at reasoning the EMS factoring into the endings, when Shepard still makes it far enough to impress the Catalyst regardless.

A great theory! I like it, makes sense

[Deviant Ingredient]

@adrianlocke647: Thanks, it's been bugging me.

Was Udina indoctrinated? Or just a jerk? I could never figure out his motivation for joining Cerberus.

[Thomas477]

Agree with all the points re: hallucination.

Although if they did change it, I have to ask Bioware one serious question, why punish those who didn't look at the leaked script, especially those that actively avoided it so ME3 wouldn't be ruined?

Now I haven't played it since 07, in fact I picked it up in May, 2011, but I was still devastated, not so much by the ending, I can cope with sic-fi space magic crap (despite the massive plotholes it contained), but it was more the lack of closure of what happened to my squad mates and the other main characters. I followed paragon with 5,000+ EMS and was shown, assuming it was, Shepard living. WTF happened.

Now if they plan on releasing this through DLC, I seriously believe they need to release a statement outlining this, rather then let the anger build as more and more people "finish" (if you can call it finishing) the trilogy.

Again, the only thing that is getting me is the whole not knowing what happened to my squad mates and the rest of the galaxy, and the fact that Bioware hasn't addressed this issue. Also for those who read IGN, Moriaty's attack on those who would have liked closure on the series (as a trilogy should), I believe, was completely uncalled for (although I agreed with regard to DLC)

[RemorseLessXx]

People who think that was the real ending did not pick up on the clues at all.

[Chatticus Maximus]

Deviant Ingredient wrote...

@adrianlocke647: Thanks, it's been bugging me.

Was Udina indoctrinated? Or just a jerk? I could never figure out his motivation for joining Cerberus.

Nah, Udina just felt unloved and unwanted.  If you watch Shadow Broker DLC, and Anderson is your councillor of choice... you see him copping a fairly rough time at the hands of Anderson and drinking alone.  Pretty big signs of someone who feels dejected - mix in desperation and fear, and you have a man open to any half-baked plan if it sounds like it'll help and make him look the hero for once!

[Deviant Ingredient]

@Chatticus Maximus: Thanks! This thread moves really fast.

[Tashakov]

Deviant Ingredient wrote...

@adrianlocke647: Thanks, it's been bugging me.

Was Udina indoctrinated? Or just a jerk? I could never figure out his motivation for joining Cerberus.

I think it might be a bit too far down the rabbit hole to assume that his actions were a result of indoctrination, though I would by no means consider counting it out. More likely, I think his dealings with the Council were just very adversarial in nature, and being the under-dog, he sought help in the most pro-human organization out there.

Considering Cerberus managed to co-opt a Volus diplomat into working for them, subverting the human councillor seems like child's play in comparison.

EDIT; Gah! Fast thread is fast! Curse my slow typing skillz.

Modifié par adrianlocke647, 13 mars 2012 - 09:59 .

[LadyofRivendell]

BigBossBoo wrote...

Kioux wrote...

Only after my first playthrough did I stumble over the indoctrination theory and while I had difficulties to accept it at first - it actually does seem to make sense now.
I mean there were already a few parts that got my attention, like the symbolism of "walking into the light" an obvious temptation attempt. In the dreams, it wasn't just memories but also things the dead never said. And yes, the fact that we cannot turn away from the child but are forced in an unpleasant way (that's how I felt about it at least) to turn around is supporting the theory from my side as well. Additionally, and I only had this happen once so far, so I cannot confirm this for good - but when I was in the last dream sequence (after finally being with the LI again - in my case Kaidan) I was actually able to run a bit further away from the child and the further I got, the louder I heard Kaidan's voice calling "Shepard!" - as if it was the one good thing that tried to get him going - until the child forces us to turn around. I'll have to test that again though,
Then there is the thing with TIMs appearance - only a few hours before hitting earth, he seemed to look somewhat normal but on the Citadel he was so obviously changed that it seemed odd. Additionally - the vid at the Cerberus base - the last entry, moments where he supposedly got the implants... it is the only time where he seems actively aware of the camera and shuts it off. I can't pinpoint why this is bothering me but it is.Almost seems like a hint, or a call for help. There has been some moments when he actually seems... empathic? understanding? supporting? with Shepard. Maybe I'm reading too much into it - as if he is trying to warn Shepard without obviously doing so.
Anyway, thanks a lot for the input on Anderson, the black fog, and a lot of the other implications on the theory, it does help to cope with the ending atrocities. And if we actually get a 'real ending' DLC - it would just help everyone. Those who like the endings as they are could stick with them and those of us who want happy endings, the LI at the side and the look at my first Krogan godchild would finally be able to sleep with a smile again instead of clawing into the hope of having figured out the great cue behind those... those poor excuses.... Nyar!

Maybe TIM is being indoctrinated between ME2 and throughout ME3 because of the reaper heart/brain.  However TIM is trying to fight it off, due to his resolve to help humanity and strong will.  He may have even been fighting it earlier than ME2 as Javik said "every cycle has someone who wants to control the reapers."  Maybe he was pushing Shepard in the smaller ways as defiance to his indoctrination but couldn't fully beat it.

Although, I noticed earlier while on my second run that TIM already has the black husk-like markings on the corners of his face during the conversation on Mars. Yet I didn't notice them on my first game, maybe because I wasn't looking... Odd, I'll keep up on watching this as I continue playing.

[Grizzly2O]

What's this whole 1m1 thing again?

[Kalms]

Kioux wrote...

Then there is the thing with TIMs appearance - only a few hours before hitting earth, he seemed to look somewhat normal but on the Citadel he was so obviously changed that it seemed odd. Additionally - the vid at the Cerberus base - the last entry, moments where he supposedly got the implants... it is the only time where he seems actively aware of the camera and shuts it off. I can't pinpoint why this is bothering me but it is.Almost seems like a hint, or a call for help. There has been some moments when he actually seems... empathic? understanding? supporting? with Shepard. Maybe I'm reading too much into it - as if he is trying to warn Shepard without obviously doing so.

I'm also biting on this. There's a few things that sticks out: TIM keeps Kai Leng from killing Shepard. Also, the way he insists that Shepard should remain himself, without alteration, during Project Lazarus. It's almost like some part of him is struggling against himself. He would seem like the person who need the control Miranda suggested.

[Lurchibald]

TIM's eyes were just like Saren's eyes since you first see him TIM in ME2 (i could be wrong about the eye thing because I've never read any of the other ME material, Only played the games)

[Tashakov]

Grizzly2O wrote...

What's this whole 1m1 thing again?

A label to the left of your path on the final Citadel sequence reads "1M1". On the right, it is mirrored exactly, so that the 1's are backwards.

Don't read too much into it. Just an oddity, until proven otherwise. Interesting bit, nonetheless.

[MisterNugNug]

RemorseLessXx wrote...



If you have not seen this video please go watch it and its a good point. This guy might be right because it does make a lot of sense in my eyes.

Also this one is a little more detailed.

Okay lets say Bioware tried to be clever with the ending.  Where does that Leave US?  We still don't have a definitive end to the story.  Are they going to release the REAL endings via DLC?  Paid DLC?  WE have to pay more money to access the endings?  If Shep really is alive, why end the game at that point?  Why not make that whole sequence a test?  If Bioware needed more time to incorporate the TRUE endings, why not delay the release of the game?  

Well then you might say well, Bioware will get flack for delaying the game.  Well if it makes a better end product, fans won't complain.  What we have now is a majority of the fanbase who's left in limbo now because they're incredibly sour and outraged over the endings present in the game and now have to wait yet again (and perhaps fork over more money) to see a definitive end to their Sheppard's story.