57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Lambchopz]

adrianlocke647 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

There is zero evidence supporting an indoctrination theory. It could be a dream I suppose, but indoctrination? Please. The Prothian VI specifically mentions that Shepard is not indoctrinated. Not to mention that Indoctrination implies that the reaper child is stupid enough to give Shepard a way out by giving him the Destroy/wake up option.

It could be a dream/hallucination but that makes no sense from a storytelling standpoint and still makes a pretty terrible ending. Besides, what exactly does it being a dream accomplish? Are you guys all expecting Bioware to release a patch saying "you've been punked, here's what really happens at the end"? Because really, that's just taking denial and naivety to a whole new level.

Again.

It is Prothean.
Protheans had problems with indoctrination too.
Mainly, traitors like Cerberus.

Now, how do you have a traitor if you knew who they were all along?

The VI, in all likely cases, can only detect *full* indoctrination, like Kai Leng, who is serving the Reapers directly through TIM.
Otherwise, Javik's cycle WOULD NEVER HAVE HAD ANY PROBLEMS FINDING THE TRAITORS.

There's also the fact that the VI's security protocols were removed/hacked by Cerberus anyways, so by the time Shep gets to the Cerberus base, it wouldn't have mattered either way.

It wouldn't be all that hard of an issue to get around. Certainly not a plothole, certainly more forgiveable then "lol space magic"

[Rifneno]

Tsantilas wrote...

There is zero evidence supporting an indoctrination theory. It could be a dream I suppose, but indoctrination? Please. The Prothian VI specifically mentions that Shepard is not indoctrinated. Not to mention that Indoctrination implies that the reaper child is stupid enough to give Shepard a way out by giving him the Destroy/wake up option.

It could be a dream/hallucination but that makes no sense from a storytelling standpoint and still makes a pretty terrible ending. Besides, what exactly does it being a dream accomplish? Are you guys all expecting Bioware to release a patch saying "you've been punked, here's what really happens at the end"? Because really, that's just taking denial and naivety to a whole new level.

LOL.  Did anyone get further than the first sentence before bursting out laughing?

[Wattoes]

I will say that Gamble's quote referenced earlier:
"Hardest. Day. Ever. Seriously, if you people knew all the stuff we are planning...you'd, we'll - hold onto your copy of me3 forever."

... gave me hope. Not born out of disappointment, but because I want to know what happened next. I'm so invested in these characters and worlds, I want to know that what I did benefited them in some way.

He doesnt want you to trade it in immediately and cost them money.

[J4N3_M3]

Mallechai wrote...

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Darjeer wrote...

So how does the game over screen during the final choice fit to the theories about indoctrination / hallucination?

I mean after 5-7 minutes of not choosing any of the endings, you die and get message that The Crucible was destroyed. It would seem that if this really was case of indoctrination, then reapers wouldn't be in any hurry to make Shepard choose.

very interesting point but maybe also just a sign that the real Crucible was destroyed because that was all the time the Reapers needed to destroy it? After all, Hacket and his people bring the Crucible in secretely so the Reapers don't destroy it on the way to the Citadel. 

but that means the crucible is destroyed on its way to the citadel because in the indoctrination theory it never docks with the citadel,  as the arms are never opened by shephard

So then the crucible is destroyed and harvester rather then continueing the indoctrination just kills shephard

possible but would be pretty lame

dont have a fitting other explenation for the 5 min death though

well all we know is that the Crucible is a chance to destroy the Reapers. We do know the plan Hackett had so Shepard knew this. If it plays all in Shep's head, this only means certain things play out the way Shepard thought they would, with Reapers using what's already in Shepard's mind to make up for their own lack of knowledge. We don't know what the Crucible exactly does. I already mentioned earlier that it might also be possible that the child isn't the Catalyst at all. Or the Citadel but that it's Shepard or ONE person resisting the indoctrination and activating the Crucible. If Shepard is able to resist the indoctrination, maybe s/he can link to the Citadel through the Reaper's mind as well, which results in the Crucible being docked AND activated. 

it's only a theory

[Icinix]

Wattoes wrote...

I will say that Gamble's quote referenced earlier:
"Hardest. Day. Ever. Seriously, if you people knew all the stuff we are planning...you'd, we'll - hold onto your copy of me3 forever."

... gave me hope. Not born out of disappointment, but because I want to know what happened next. I'm so invested in these characters and worlds, I want to know that what I did benefited them in some way.

He doesnt want you to trade it in immediately and cost them money.

I'm hanging out hope this is a DLC or unlock or something about 3 months down the track so when everyone is in awe of the real endings they'll come out and say... "Hey! Aren't you glad you didn't trade in your copy for COD 67?"

[Darjeer]

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Darjeer wrote...

So how does the game over screen during the final choice fit to the theories about indoctrination / hallucination?

I mean after 5-7 minutes of not choosing any of the endings, you die and get message that The Crucible was destroyed. It would seem that if this really was case of indoctrination, then reapers wouldn't be in any hurry to make Shepard choose.

very interesting point but maybe also just a sign that the real Crucible was destroyed because that was all the time the Reapers needed to destroy it? After all, Hacket and his people bring the Crucible in secretely so the Reapers don't destroy it on the way to the Citadel. 

That was also my first reaction to that, but then I realized that you couldn't die from running out of time if you were still on Citadel part of the ending scene (at least I didn't die, might need someone to confirm this). I'm my mind that kinda points to that you were actually standing in the Crucible when reapers destroyed it.

On the other hand, this depends a lot on what would be the start of hallucination. If the hallucination starts after the TIM scene, then your explanation might be true. If the hallucination starts right after the laser, then I find this kinda odd, because why would the Crucible even be on our system if nobody hasn't made it to the Citadel yet?

[mr.surv]

http://imageshack.us.../834/4534n.jpg/

different endings

[Vyrii]

Darjeer wrote...

mr.surv wrote...

I'm just search game files for any clues.

For now, I found why our pistol have unlimited ammo.


http://imageshack.us...14/pistolq.jpg/

Btw. Wouldn't that infinite ammo be just to ensure you couldn't waste all your rounds before the end and then find yourself in situation where you couldn't shoot the power relay even if you wanted?

From a developing stand point that's probably the reason why they did it.  I can be tied into the indoctrination theory correctly, but I doubt that that was the initial reason to have the unlimited ammo pistol.
Players that do no use pistols and are forced to in the final moments will probably need more shots to kill the husks and the reaver.  You would need more shots if you shoot at the body and not at the head.  Not to mention that there are some people that are probably truly terrible at aiming.

It also wouldn't make sense to have thermal clips hanging out on the outside of the Citadel.

I'm playing devil's advocate!  I truely do believe that the Indoctrination theory is correct!  However, some things- such as the unlimited ammo pistol seem more like a development and game play thing than a clue to indoctrination.  I feel that there are more concrete clues than this to prove our point.

[VonJedi1]

Just a quick thing in terms of musical themes through out the game, which neither supports or refutes this, but would possibly show a link through out the game to certain events.

The song after the choice is made "An Ending Once and For All" follows a leit motif established in the first encounter with the child, the song labelled "Leaving Earth" which is also played whenever Shepard is dreaming. Knowing the way Clint Mansell writes his music (and looking at the composers for those two songs), it's relevant to think that the two events are clearly related.

Whether they reference Shepards mental state as he is clearly falling apart and hung up on the kid, or a running leit motif to subconsciously remind us this is a running theme, the kid is symbolic of something, whether it be Shepards inability to "save everyone" or Harbingers sick attempt to control him. Especially with the way the piano parts are written, Shepard is disconnected from the fight around him when he talks to the kid. Then pulled out of it when the big horns start (when the destroyer comes around the corner and targets the kid). The first event with the kid, discovering then him getting killed, is either pathetic cliche writing to get us emotionally invested and a starting point of sherpards mental degradation, or an extremely intelligent and well thought out ruse to screw with us. Time will tell I guess.

I may be stretching here, but I'm starting to think the music is playing a bigger part than we think.

[Lambchopz]

Wattoes wrote...

I will say that Gamble's quote referenced earlier:
"Hardest. Day. Ever. Seriously, if you people knew all the stuff we are planning...you'd, we'll - hold onto your copy of me3 forever."

... gave me hope. Not born out of disappointment, but because I want to know what happened next. I'm so invested in these characters and worlds, I want to know that what I did benefited them in some way.

He doesnt want you to trade it in immediately and cost them money.

Trading it in wouldn't cost BioWare money, this reasoning is a bit flawed.

It's likely he is trying to build up anticipation for some yet to be seen DLC, but that still doesn't mean it's going to be a new ending.

[DangerSandler]

 "Cerberus must have been tipped off. They got here too fast" - Garrus
"Every war has it's traitors." - Liara.
I find that that little point never got resolved, I mean, is it possible that Shepard could have been subconciously feeding TIM/ The Reapers info? All of our thoughts fit the theory of indoctrination, but lack necessary evidence to prove it. It's maddening. 

[Tsantilas]

adrianlocke647 wrote...

Again.

It is Prothean.
Protheans had problems with indoctrination too.
Mainly, traitors like Cerberus.

Now, how do you have a traitor if you knew who they were all along?

The VI, in all likely cases, can only detect *full* indoctrination, like Kai Leng, who is serving the Reapers directly through TIM.
Otherwise, Javik's cycle WOULD NEVER HAVE HAD ANY PROBLEMS FINDING THE TRAITORS.

Oh please... *full* indoctrination? What?  Also, it is a lot more likely that the VI was developed after it was already too late to do something about the traitors, rather than "it's indoctrination detection process only works SOMETIMES".  There are no signs in the game that even raise suspicion to the fact that the VI has foolproof detection protocals.  People just need to accept that it's simply bad writing.  If it ends up being explained that Shepard was indoctrinated I will eat my keyboard.

[JasonTan87]

Brownfinger wrote...

I thought it was a beautiful, if not bizarre, way to conclude the series. From tangible science fiction to something a bit more abstract and philosophical. It was interesting.

Though, I opted to destroy. It made the most sense to me, and Shepard lived.

I will say that Gamble's quote referenced earlier:
"Hardest. Day. Ever. Seriously, if you people knew all the stuff we are planning...you'd, we'll - hold onto your copy of me3 forever."

... gave me hope. Not born out of disappointment, but because I want to know what happened next. I'm so invested in these characters and worlds, I want to know that what I did benefited them in some way.

Abstraction and philosophical is fine. Suddenly dumping it on the player in the last 5 minutes is not.

[FGRaptor]

I just don't know. I like this theory, because it would make the ending worth more, but really, with all the other broken promises as well as what happened with DA2 and SW:TOR it seems more likely to just be a bad ending. There was a "confirmation" of a trial on earth, never happened, not even in a flashback. There's a dreadnought in atmosphere on Earth. There were supposed to be many endings, but there are only really 3. The game is also the shortest so far in the series. Dialogue is really awesome, but dialogue choices are definitely more sparse than before. All in all it just seems more likely that this is what we've got.

[frajerik]

mr.surv wrote...

http://imageshack.us.../834/4534n.jpg/

different endings

can you please upload it somewhere else? i cant zoom it

[Arian Dynas]

Jesus H Christ...

It just occurred to me.

What if this theory is absolutely correct...

And Bioware, not wanting to risk another leak of their ending has chosen instead to make it to where the ending is not part of the original game... until a patch comes in when it is available in every region?

Think about it, they radically changed the game from the leaked scripts, why didn't they change things when THE ENDING VIDEOS themselves were leaked? Why did they give a statement saying "yup, those are pretty much it."

Otherwise, why the silence, if they aren't planning something? Why the fact that they have barely let out any info, beyond cryptic hints of "Just wait and see, can't comment yet."

It might be wishful thinking, but right now, I believe that Bioware has the entire ending all set up and ready... to be released in a patch when the game itself has reached maximum saturation.

It's like a magic show, the magician seems competent up until the end, when suddenly he starts failing, badly, and then, at the last moment, to the entire audience's suprise, he pulls off his biggest trick yet, to roaring applause.

[Vyrii]

Darjeer wrote...

J4N3_M3 wrote...

Darjeer wrote...

So how does the game over screen during the final choice fit to the theories about indoctrination / hallucination?

I mean after 5-7 minutes of not choosing any of the endings, you die and get message that The Crucible was destroyed. It would seem that if this really was case of indoctrination, then reapers wouldn't be in any hurry to make Shepard choose.

very interesting point but maybe also just a sign that the real Crucible was destroyed because that was all the time the Reapers needed to destroy it? After all, Hacket and his people bring the Crucible in secretely so the Reapers don't destroy it on the way to the Citadel. 

That was also my first reaction to that, but then I realized that you couldn't die from running out of time if you were still on Citadel part of the ending scene (at least I didn't die, might need someone to confirm this). I'm my mind that kinda points to that you were actually standing in the Crucible when reapers destroyed it.

On the other hand, this depends a lot on what would be the start of hallucination. If the hallucination starts after the TIM scene, then your explanation might be true. If the hallucination starts right after the laser, then I find this kinda odd, because why would the Crucible even be on our system if nobody hasn't made it to the Citadel yet?

You could also turn this completely around and say that the Reapers WANTED Shepard on the Crucible to destroy them.  That's why the time limit is there, indoctrination or not the Reapers don't want Shepard alive.  It would be a simple thing to get them on the Crucible and simply destroy it.

They could think that Shepard standing around for minutes on end could simply be an indescision instead of the "correct" decision (control/merge) and decide to off Shepard when they have the chance.

[SadCommander]

I fully support the Dream/Hallucination/Indoctrination theory. The endings we have now don't had to be changed, the missing part is where shepards wake up (destroy,5k ems) and the battle goes on.

[JulienJaden]

How is ANYBODY supposed to keep up with this thread? I was just reading a post on page 294 a minute ago, refresh, and suddenly, four new pages. This is insane.

It's probably been mentioned before in one form or another, but I couldn't find it among the facts in the first post and I think it is a crucial fact: Shepard survives in the best variations of the destruction end. Nothing new here, it seems, BUT: How could Shepard survive, if it wasn't just a hallucination? He's on the citadel, in orbit, in what remains of his armor. If it explodes, he explodes with it. Even if he survived the initial detonation, there is NO WAY he'd survive the entry into Earth's atmosphere. Hell, that's what killed Shepard at the start of Mass Effect 2, and this time, he/she doesn't even have a functioning suit and would actually be buried under millions of tons of wreckage. And if that scene did take place on some part of the wreck of the Citadel, there'd be no air to breath. Without the citadel maintaining the atmosphere (remember that the part where Shepard met the Catalyst was open on all sides), that would be impossible.
So, I guess this is a pointer that Bioware might actually plan to add another "ballscrushingly-hard-to-get" end where this actually was only a hallucination. But then, I'd have to ask why they'd want to patch it in instead of including it on release, because it would be an absolutely dickish thing to make us pay for that.

Edit: Hold on, there was a time limit? Where?

Modifié par JulienJaden, 13 mars 2012 - 11:52 .

[Goddy10]

Tsantilas wrote...

adrianlocke647 wrote...

Again.

It is Prothean.
Protheans had problems with indoctrination too.
Mainly, traitors like Cerberus.

Now, how do you have a traitor if you knew who they were all along?

The VI, in all likely cases, can only detect *full* indoctrination, like Kai Leng, who is serving the Reapers directly through TIM.
Otherwise, Javik's cycle WOULD NEVER HAVE HAD ANY PROBLEMS FINDING THE TRAITORS.

Oh please... *full* indoctrination? What?

Obvious troll is obvious. Do you not pay attention to the lore of the game? Or are you one of those shooter dribblers that "Action Mode" was made for?

[Phydeaux314]

Mr. Surv, did you snag that with the UDK, or what?

[Vyrii]

Rifneno wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

There is zero evidence supporting an indoctrination theory. It could be a dream I suppose, but indoctrination? Please. The Prothian VI specifically mentions that Shepard is not indoctrinated. Not to mention that Indoctrination implies that the reaper child is stupid enough to give Shepard a way out by giving him the Destroy/wake up option.

It could be a dream/hallucination but that makes no sense from a storytelling standpoint and still makes a pretty terrible ending. Besides, what exactly does it being a dream accomplish? Are you guys all expecting Bioware to release a patch saying "you've been punked, here's what really happens at the end"? Because really, that's just taking denial and naivety to a whole new level.

LOL.  Did anyone get further than the first sentence before bursting out laughing?

No, I won't bother with people who don't read the first page.
I was actually considering replying, but then thought better of it.
I did get a good giggle out of it though

[VonJedi1]

DangerSandler wrote...

 "Cerberus must have been tipped off. They got here too fast" - Garrus
"Every war has it's traitors." - Liara.
I find that that little point never got resolved, I mean, is it possible that Shepard could have been subconciously feeding TIM/ The Reapers info? All of our thoughts fit the theory of indoctrination, but lack necessary evidence to prove it. It's maddening. 

I thought the traitor was Udina? Feeding them information.

I was starting to fear EDI had a bigger part to play in this.

There was a lot of weird information introduced that went no where in the Cerberus base, more to the point of why mention EDI was enhanced using Reaper technology? There has been AI of her intelligence created without it. It was an odd and out of place point to introduce that ultimately ended up irrelevant. As well as mentioning the whole "should never be unshackled" comment. I was half expecting EDI to turn at the end of the mission and for it to be revealed she was in fact working for Harbinger.

[Bigdoser]

mr.surv wrote...

http://imageshack.us.../834/4534n.jpg/

different endings

I don't get it what is image showing? 

Modifié par Bigdoser, 13 mars 2012 - 11:52 .

[Pelle6666]

Nightmare more likely! >.<

But it's hard to see how Bioware could end a 30h+ game epic with a cliffhanger. Not very likely.