57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Terran235]

What if it meant shepard can keep kicking reaper ass? and the next mass effect games are more about the overall war than just shepard? maybe that was the plan? Maybe we get to meet shepard in the next game, all scarred up still killing reapers.

[Darjeer]

Okay. Could someone explain to me how this fits in the whole "Shepard is hallucinating" -theory?

Shepard hallucinating everything after the laser:
I noticed last night that if you take too long during the final scene, you will get game over with the message reading "The Crucible has been destroyed". At first I was sure that this indicated that everything that happened was real. After playing the bit just before the final push to Conduit I realized that they actually bring The Crucible to Sol system before they storm the Conduit. So everything might be just hallucination after all and if Shepard takes too long breaking out of it, then reapers destroy The Crucible.

However, you can't run out of time during the part before TIM encounter (or at least I haven't been able to). Wouldn't the reapers still destroy The Crucible after some time regardless at what section of the Citadel your hallucination-avatar is on? 

The whole timelimit happens only during the last part. Doesn't this kinda indicate that reapers aren't aware of Crucible entering the Sol system or see it as a threat during the pre-TIM part, but become aware of it after it docks with Citadel. So someone must have "opened" the Citadel for Crucible to be able to dock, but if Shepard is still in Earth hallucinating, then who did this?

Shepard hallucinating everything after TIM:
Going with "Shepard is hallucinating after The Crucible docks" would be also be kinda impossible. If he's hallucinating from that point forward then he wouldn't wake up in Earth, but in rubble inside Citadel. But Citadel shouldn't be in that shape if we never chose the destroy option, right?

There's the possibility that while Shepard is hallucinating on the floor of Citadel, reapers came and destroyed the Crucible. But that would mean another game over -screen, so this can't be the case either.

Shepard being indoctrinated:
Also someone said earlier that Shepard might just be indoctrinated and Catalyst brought him to Citadel to die. So the reapers destroying the Crucible would be kind of plan B if Shepard picked up "wrong" choice or couldn't decide. This option is also kinda odd, if you take into account the rubble-scene. Everyone is saying it's clearly in London, but this is impossible in any scenario so Shepard must be waking in the Citadel.

This would also mean that everything that happened was real and it wasn't really that much indoctrination, but manipulation from Catalyst to ensure that reapers aren't destroyed.

Okay, so what am I missing?

Modifié par Darjeer, 13 mars 2012 - 04:04 .

[GunMoth]

Lost Cipher wrote...

njfluffy19 wrote...

GunMoth wrote...

More food for thought: Anyone else get the dialog with James Vega (he'll say it sometimes when he has nothing else to say) that says "Do you hear that humming noise? Or is that just me?".

This has been discussed. It's weird and so out of place that he says it, it's got to be significant.

They are in a cargo bay, where Cortez has been repairing stuff... like the Kodiak.

It makes more sense that he is just hearing work being done.

You'd figure he'd be aware of what the way a ship sounds. The only other time we hear "humming" complaints is on the deralict reaper that I can remember. (Recordings of scientists) 

[MRedfield]

kent80082006 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Ok so... Shepard passes out while talking to Hackett... and then the elevator thing takes Shepard up to where he meets the catalyst. Why not just let Shepard die where he passed out? The Catalyst has already won if he's supposedly this evil reaper god thing that lies to Shepard. It just doesn't make sense to me that it's all an elaborate scheme to trick him and indoctrinate him. Letting him die is a much easier solution.

For those who missed it, let me bring up something that is probably buried under about a hundred pages.

If you have a low EMS, the starchild says in an angry tone "Why are you here"
If you have a high EMS, the starchild says in a less intimidating tone "Wake up"


Makes sense?

Yeap. You get the high EMS, you get told to "Wake up", and if you choose destroy, you "Wake up" at the end. It's perfectly planned.

[Lost Cipher]

GunMoth wrote...

Lost Cipher wrote...

njfluffy19 wrote...

GunMoth wrote...

More food for thought: Anyone else get the dialog with James Vega (he'll say it sometimes when he has nothing else to say) that says "Do you hear that humming noise? Or is that just me?".

This has been discussed. It's weird and so out of place that he says it, it's got to be significant.

They are in a cargo bay, where Cortez has been repairing stuff... like the Kodiak.

It makes more sense that he is just hearing work being done.

You'd figure he'd be aware of what the way a ship sounds. The only other time we hear "humming" complaints is on the deralict reaper that I can remember. (Recordings of scientists) 

Throughout the entire game, Vega and Cortez are playing off each other in jokes and quips (excellent ones I might add).

[GunMoth]

MRedfield wrote...

kent80082006 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Ok so... Shepard passes out while talking to Hackett... and then the elevator thing takes Shepard up to where he meets the catalyst. Why not just let Shepard die where he passed out? The Catalyst has already won if he's supposedly this evil reaper god thing that lies to Shepard. It just doesn't make sense to me that it's all an elaborate scheme to trick him and indoctrinate him. Letting him die is a much easier solution.

For those who missed it, let me bring up something that is probably buried under about a hundred pages.

If you have a low EMS, the starchild says in an angry tone "Why are you here"
If you have a high EMS, the starchild says in a less intimidating tone "Wake up"


Makes sense?

Yeap. You get the high EMS, you get told to "Wake up", and if you choose destroy, you "Wake up" at the end. It's perfectly planned.

I wondered about this question too (why doesnt "Harbinger" just kill me?) I figured it has to do with Shepard being a stronger ally than dead. Waste of a resource. Not only that but the synthesis ending. Assuming that shepard is needed because of the augmentations. Shepard is the only person able to bring everyone in the galaxy to one spot to get harvested. I think? 

[jackncoke28]

k8ee wrote...

jackncoke28 wrote...

Just wanted to comment about the argument on why would reapers give you the option to destroy them. The indoctrination argument stipulates that shepard never actually got to the citadel, the choices are in your head. I would argue that the choices aren't really between controling, synthesizing, or destroying. They are basically
1. Giving in to reaper idiology while maintaining some of who you are (control)
2. Completely giving in to reaper ideology (synthesis)
3. Not giving in, and continuing to fight. (Destroy)
And by reaper idiology I mean there idea about the need for order in the universe (put forth by the "catalyst") and the inevitability of the organic's destruction by the harbingers of that synthetic order, the catalyst uses this argument to creat a sense of how useless it will be to keep fighting, and using the image of the boy has the added effect of reminding Shepard that he won't be able to save every one if he does continue to fight, an attempt to break his will. The first 2 choices, IMO, are shepard giving in to the arguments the reapers have made in ME1,2,and most of 3, via indoctrinated Saren, Sovereign, Harbinger, and indoctrinated TIM.

The reason for the indoctrination I believe, is to break the resistance of the allied forces. Shepard represents their hope, their belief that they can win this fight. We learned from javik that the prothean reaper war lasted his entire life, and the major disadvantage was that they were a homogeneous empire. So even with that disadvantage the held out for at least a couple decades. This cycle has multiple races fighting in tandem, and it has the catalyst weapon. This cycle has the best chance of defeating them and they know it. Martyring Shepard does not help their cause, they need him broken.
Wow, I didn't intend to go this far lol, I guess that's what great stories do to someone

Beautifully put.

Thank You

Also to add to argument against synthesis, wasnt synthesing and evolving into perfect being promised to the geth heratics by the reapers?

[Goikiu]

MRedfield wrote...

kent80082006 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Ok so... Shepard passes out while talking to Hackett... and then the elevator thing takes Shepard up to where he meets the catalyst. Why not just let Shepard die where he passed out? The Catalyst has already won if he's supposedly this evil reaper god thing that lies to Shepard. It just doesn't make sense to me that it's all an elaborate scheme to trick him and indoctrinate him. Letting him die is a much easier solution.

For those who missed it, let me bring up something that is probably buried under about a hundred pages.

If you have a low EMS, the starchild says in an angry tone "Why are you here"
If you have a high EMS, the starchild says in a less intimidating tone "Wake up"


Makes sense?

Yeap. You get the high EMS, you get told to "Wake up", and if you choose destroy, you "Wake up" at the end. It's perfectly planned.

It's a little hard to obtain these with an xbox like me (for the multiplayer), however it's possible.

[BlackDragonBane]

MRedfield wrote...

kent80082006 wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

Ok so... Shepard passes out while talking to Hackett... and then the elevator thing takes Shepard up to where he meets the catalyst. Why not just let Shepard die where he passed out? The Catalyst has already won if he's supposedly this evil reaper god thing that lies to Shepard. It just doesn't make sense to me that it's all an elaborate scheme to trick him and indoctrinate him. Letting him die is a much easier solution.

For those who missed it, let me bring up something that is probably buried under about a hundred pages.

If you have a low EMS, the starchild says in an angry tone "Why are you here"
If you have a high EMS, the starchild says in a less intimidating tone "Wake up"


Makes sense?

Yeap. You get the high EMS, you get told to "Wake up", and if you choose destroy, you "Wake up" at the end. It's perfectly planned.

This difference has to be significant, else why would devs bother making it so obvious when you have varying circumstances.

Was it proven that there's a companion's voice behind Catalyst's when saying 'wake-up' or did that turn out to just be wishful thinking?

[ArkkAngel007]

Ravax wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Ravax wrote...

http://www.examiner....effect-movement

WE ARE GETTING KNOWN!!

Also, if I search in google: "mass effect 3 endings"

these are the top results:

Why Mass Effect 3's Ending Was So Damn Terrible
Gamers Petition To Change Mass Effect 3 Ending - G4tv.com
Protests over ending of Mass Effect 3 show fan investment in story ...
Mass Effect 3 Endings Reception | Know Your Meme
Feature: Mass Effect 3's ending: Why the backlash is idiotic - but ...
The Mass Effect 3 Ending Backlash Continues To Gain Steam ...
Mass Effect 3 Ending: Retake Mass Effect movement - Honolulu ..

-------

So REGARDLESS if asia hasnt seen it released yet, all they have to do is google, and SHAZAAAAM, sales will go down because they will see the ending is a flop... granted it might be a minor decrease in sales, but its still money lost if they dare continue this sharade (granted they are 'tricking' us)

Just food for thought!

While congrats are in order in your goals beginning to be met, this isn't the point of this thread.  We already have about 20+ threads bashing the ending, and it can stay in those 20+ threads honestly.

The purpose here is to discuss the indoctrination theory about the endings.  If you don't agree, cool, it's good for there to be counter-arguments and what-not.  But spamming here with that just seems...out of place.

Not trying to be an **s, but it just doesn't seem to fit the discussion at all and just feels like spamming.

Mate, 90% of my posts on this thread were about the indoctrination theory which I support..
I dont see any harm in letting my fellow conspirators know the situation outside the confines of this particular thread if they hadnt found out..
Plus, the entire speculation behind this thread is built upon the premise that Bioware has yet to reveal the 'true' ending of ME3 (which is what we are all hoping for), and news like this just might be the beginning of a forcing hand for them to stop dancing around the tree and finally spit it out...

Well I apologize then; I didn't look at your post history or anything or really looked back at what you posted before or if you even had, so I must plead ignorance on your views.  Just the way it was worded seemed out of place and very....uh, strongly pointed, and that was all I had to go on at that moment.  But again sorry 

Anyways though, hey, it's good that people on the outside know that this was handled terribly regardless whether or not the indoctrination theory proves true.  While I think it's brilliant and that I wouldn't mind DLC to follow it up, I don't think it was the wisest decision.  Most consumers are not going to understand why they have to shell out more for an ending that should have been included in the product in the first place if this was the intention all along.  And as a few on here have said, it sets a bad presedence.  

[Wolf_in_the_Meadow]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Wolf_in_the_Meadow wrote...

This thread is growing too fast to read...

Anyway, in case this hasn't been mentioned, the art book which came with the N7CE has 3 pieces of information.

1) The final fight is supposed to be an actual fight, against a more Reaperised TIM.

2) Shepard never visits the keeper tunnels in ME3.

3) The Corridor of Death right after the beam was originally drawn up to be on TIM's station, right before you fight him.

Seems off if the final fight was changed randomly after the art book was finalised.


Also, don't know if this was mentioned, but why would all the humans in the Corridor of Death be dead and in piles if they were meant to be part of a Reaper? They melted them in ME2...

The art book states that they removed the TIM Monster and the Corridor of Death from Cronos Station.  I'm not quite sure where you are going with the keeper tunnel thing though.

It says, and I quote:

"One of the plans on the drawing board was to have the Illusive Man turn into a Reaper creature for the final battle. Eventually, this plan was scrapped, since we wanted to give players the satisfaction of fighting a character they know rather than a random creature."

It doesn't say they removed the fight only that the change in TIM was less extreme.

The art book doesn't actually say the CoD was ever on Chronos, only that it's what the room may have looked like if you'd fought TIM in space. The room before the final confrontation, which is kinda what it's still used for, but it doesn't have Cerberus bodies in it.

In regards to the Keeper Tunnels... well, you're in a tunnel which looks nothing like what Shepard has seen on the rest of the Citedal, and it has a Keeper in it. As the Keepers are in charge of maintianing the Citadel, it stands to reason they go everywhere in it. Thus, you are in a Keeper Tunnel. Possibly a bit of a stretch, but...

[njfluffy19]

Lost Cipher wrote...

njfluffy19 wrote...

GunMoth wrote...

More food for thought: Anyone else get the dialog with James Vega (he'll say it sometimes when he has nothing else to say) that says "Do you hear that humming noise? Or is that just me?".

This has been discussed. It's weird and so out of place that he says it, it's got to be significant.

They are in a cargo bay, where Cortez has been repairing stuff... like the Kodiak.

It makes more sense that he is just hearing work being done.

Why bother putting that in there? Kaidan said the same stuff by the relay in the Presidium. It's rather random to put that in there, if you ask me.

[Monochrome Wench]

One thing (as if there is *only* one thing) bugging me about the ending is the "Wake up" line. It makes NO sense. Let me show

First we have what Shepard looks like at the beginning of the section. Note she is kneeling with eyes open. She is not asleep.


She shakes her head and looks up. Again obviously not asleep


Child come over, and says wake up.


Doesn't it seem odd that the child would say "Wake Up" when Shepard is already awake. Well, turns out Shepard is not actually awake. The child is Shepards subconsious trying to get Shepard to wake up in the real world. The fight isn't over yet... WAKE UP!

[squee365]

The ending of ME3 is harbinger's plan C... It all makes sense.

[njfluffy19]

Monochrome Wench wrote...

Doesn't it seem odd that the child would say "Wake Up" when Shepard is already awake. Well, turns out Shepard is not actually awake. The child is Shepards subconsious trying to get Shepard to wake up in the real world. The fight isn't over yet... WAKE UP!

Good find. That would explain Shepard's voice (male and female) echoed within the child's.

[Wuyunk]

What if Ede was causing it unknowingly?

She used that Cerberus AI's body and who knows what tech was used to make it, although I'm sure Ede would have picked up on it.

But it was around Shep the whole time once they brought it back on board the Normandy.

I haven't put any real thought into that by the way >.> It just popped into my head so its probably completely wrong.

[Goikiu]

Monochrome Wench wrote...

One thing (as if there is *only* one thing) bugging me about the ending is the "Wake up" line. It makes NO sense. Let me show

First we have what Shepard looks like at the beginning of the section. Note she is kneeling with eyes open. She is not asleep.


She shakes her head and looks up. Again obviously not asleep


Child come over, and says wake up.


Doesn't it seem odd that the child would say "Wake Up" when Shepard is already awake. Well, turns out Shepard is not actually awake. The child is Shepards subconsious trying to get Shepard to wake up in the real world. The fight isn't over yet... WAKE UP!

As i've said with other info you've probably knocked out by the beam (when you're running towards the blue light).
So if you choose to fight you'll be able to fight until the end.

I do not know what's the truth anymore... 

[JasonTan87]

squee365 wrote...

The ending of ME3 is harbinger's plan C... It all makes sense.

As much as I want to believe in this, what makes sense to me is that we're mostly grasping at straws and making up in our heads the ending we really wanted Bioware to give us; an ending which they didn't because they dropped the ball and prefer to make MP DLC.

[Lost Cipher]

njfluffy19 wrote...

Lost Cipher wrote...

njfluffy19 wrote...

GunMoth wrote...

More food for thought: Anyone else get the dialog with James Vega (he'll say it sometimes when he has nothing else to say) that says "Do you hear that humming noise? Or is that just me?".

This has been discussed. It's weird and so out of place that he says it, it's got to be significant.

They are in a cargo bay, where Cortez has been repairing stuff... like the Kodiak.

It makes more sense that he is just hearing work being done.

Why bother putting that in there? Kaidan said the same stuff by the relay in the Presidium. It's rather random to put that in there, if you ask me.

Dialogue for the sake of dialogue... Make the world seem real by characters commenting about their enviroment.

[mmL]

Here's a completely different line of reasoning why this has to be true. Don't take it too seriously though

EA and Bioware are companies trying to make a profit.
How do you make profit? -> By selling DLCs. They have enough experience and numbers with all the Dragon Age and Mass Effect games to know how they can capitalize on these.
So from the start, ME3 must have been developed to sell future DLCs. If they had incorporated a very satisfactory ending, fewer people would have any reason to buy DLCs, the story would have been wrapped up anyway.
So they did the opposite: Give us an ending like the one we got, an charge money for the real and epic ending everyone wants. Chances are everyone will be buying it and everyone will be happy to throw the money at bioware just to find some closure.

Smart move, Bioware, smart move.
And damn you for all the future games with the same concept.

[IhateEA-Mask]

Sadly, this theory is so awesome that it will feel crushing when it turns out that its not true =/ Awesome fan theories are never true...

On James and humming voice: There IS humming voice in Shuttle bay. You also hear it in the engineering room near the core. Same in first game.

Modifié par IhateEA-Mask, 13 mars 2012 - 04:12 .

[Milvushina]

squee365 wrote...

The ending of ME3 is harbinger's plan C... It all makes sense.

Yes!  I think so.  I just wish it was stated in the game, for crying out loud.  It would at least give some closure and sense of accomplishment.  It's like if the end of the original KOTOR your identity was hinted at, but never revealed.  Think about how much less satisfying that would have been.  A little mystery is good, total lack of explanation is not.

[OriginalTibs]

Ravax wrote...

...So REGARDLESS if asia hasnt seen it released yet, all they have to do is google, and SHAZAAAAM, sales will go down because they will see the ending is a flop... granted it might be a minor decrease in sales, but its still money lost if they dare continue this sharade (granted they are 'tricking' us)

Just food for thought!

Naw: They are competitors. Sales will go up because they will want to do better than we did.

[Rob_K1]

Elendstourist wrote...

Rob_K1 wrote...

Wuyunk wrote...

Elendstourist wrote...

The last time I checked this thread about 15 hour ago it had 100 pages less. Could someone kindly give me a brief update? Last I read was the twitter post saying there was no ETA for the rubble in the ending scene to be removed. I dont have time to read the 100 pages

Did I miss something?

No major new news I don't think, we're still just brainstorming, but I missed the tweet about an ETA about the rubble scene being removed, what the hell was that about? :/ Why would they be removing the rubble scene? Don't get it.

Where exactly was it mentioned about the rubble scene being removed?

Nowhere.

The twitter post I refered to was:

Zach Naizer -

@masseffect Any idea when the debree on earth around the n7 armor is going to be removed?



Mass Effect-

@alaggyhost We have no ETA at this time


That sound like removing the rubble around the N7 armor --> Shepard under it

Cheers for the clarification.

[Fledgey]

cgrimm54 wrote...

AlphaDormante wrote...

I love the Indoctrination theory a lot, but this has been bothering me. ...if Destroy is the "break free" option, and Control is the "succumb" option, what is Synthesis construed as? More specifically, if Destroy lets you overcome indoctrination and Control lets you submit to it, what are Synthesis' consequences for real Shepard?

Presumably, Synthesis allows the Reapers to indoctrinate EVERYONE.
Real Shepard would probably just become the lead indoctrinatee.  The one who allowed the rest of the galaxy to crumble.  It's really sad, actually.

Incorrect. Basically Control leads you to be indoctrinated as the illusive man was, and synthesis leads you to be indoctrinated as saren was. Your actions in this dream world have no effect on anyone but shepard.