57139 réponses à ce sujet

[AvianCat]

Kloborgg711 wrote...

lavosslayer wrote...

Kloborgg711 wrote...

AvianCat wrote...
This thread has answers to some of this. The indoctrination begins in Arrival with Shepard being in the Project with Object Rho for 2 days. Bioware may release the real ending over the Alliance Network because of various marketing strategies against used games, piracy, etc. And everything after Shepard dies is just what Shepard wants to see being the savior of the galaxy. But this is all speculation and you may be right.

I really, really can't see something this elaborate being the case. It would be such a betrayal to the fan base to put such a complex hard-to-explain subplot underneath the entire game and only reveal it later via DLC. Again, you might be able to justify anything if you have enough time, but with so much to try and justify it's pretty clear (to me), it's a huge dose of wishful thinking. 

I responded your questions on page 29 and I don't see it as a betrayal...how would it be? I think it would be a betrayal if they left it as is with no real logical reason for the ending to be how it is...I think it does suck that it more then likely would be DLC but I don't think they will make us pay for it and even if they did I don't think it would be as expensive as Shadow Broker.  

There really is more evidence to prove the Indoctrination theory then there is to prove the current ending is truly happening in real time...there are just way too many open ended questions as it is but by objectively seeing the endings as part of indoctrination it begins to come together and make sense

You don't think lying to the entire fanbase and then requiring them later on to get more content is betrayal? Finishing ME3 gave me an empty feeling in my gut and got me depressed for a couple days. I would be pretty pissed if that was all part of some elaborate marketting scheme.

We are all mad about the ending, that is why we are trying to say that this ending is fake. We are making ourselves feel better with this doubt. You trying to poke holes in our theory is making people feel worse or just angry so could you just please drop it? You are not helping anyone.

[lookingglassmind]

But, Kloborgg711:

Imagine, for a moment, if it WAS indoctrination. If BioWare was trying to get us to fight indoctrination as players? Which may sound very weird, but hear me out.

In the ending, it seems as though the push for indoctrination is very strong. Throughout the series, the player has been united with Shepard. Our goal has been his/her goal: destroy the Reapers. S/he resists indoctrination throughout the series. It's not until the end that, when Shepard is confronted with Reaper Incarnate itself, that indoctrination becomes a very real threat. Shepard is injured, delirious. If s/he actually is in the presence of the Catalyst/Harbinger, s/he may be very vulnerable to the effects of this being. This is why the ending seems so... off. Indoctrination has been resisted throughout the series, and it is only until that moment that Shepard begins to feel it's pull.

And the player, along with Shepard, feels its pull. We are confronted with endings we never considered before. We hesitate. We waver. We agonize over the choice. Wouldn't that be a perfect set-up for implying player indoctrination? And if BioWare is silent on the issue until a majority of the choices are made (indoctrination is successful or resisted), would that not also make a beautiful theory?

I know it's likely not the case. I do not expect BioWare to have gone this metaphysical, weird, or outside of the box. It's definitely a limited theory, and myopic. But... it makes me grin, to think about it.

Modifié par lookingglassmind, 11 mars 2012 - 02:33 .

[JELLAQTP]

RussianOrc wrote...

its really strage how TIM died exactly like saren and that comment "looks like your description of the collector ship"

Shepard never asks anything about how TIM is there or why the crucible entity was the "boy" of his dreams, so many plotholes. 

The ending have so many dreamy features. 

I have very high hopes that Bioware is planning something with this ending. I really hope we can wake up from this kind of nightmare. If that´s their plan they are being very risky. Don´t remember any game developer doing something like this. 

Hope this details are not just us seeing channels on mars.   

[Asuka Bianchini]

 Taken from the other thread about this, I think this HIGHLY supports the indoctrination theory:

"

This is what I believed because Anderson never acknowledged the boy and it seemed like no one payed attention to him when he got on the shuttle. If you also notice when Anderson tells you come on when you see the boy at the beginning you hear a growling noise after you turn your attention away from the boy, which if I remember correctly from the third book (I can't seem to remember the name of it now) when Greyson resisted the reapers they would make a growling noise once they realized they didn't have him under complete control.

 here start after 00:43.
he's right.
the sound starts exactly after anderson call shepard. "

[humes spork]

Sajuro wrote...

coupled with the fact that even after Retribution the Alliance is still filled with Cerberus moles?

Yup. And, there's no real reason for Vega's complaints about hearing noises nobody else can in the shuttle bay...and nothing ever comes of it. It's too subtle yet conspicuous if you're diligent about talking to squaddies.

[Kloborgg711]

lavosslayer wrote...

I was totally speechless in a bad way when I finished the game two days ago...I couldn't even bring myself to look at the icon on my desktop it was so bad...then I saw this thread and begin objectively looking at the end and thinking about all I've read and seen throughout the game and the books and it all began to make sense.


I really hope that they won't charge for the addition as it is vital to the game and I don't think it would be good business. However the idea of setting the ending up this way is classic EA mixed with Bioware mischeviousness in their storytelling. Like I said in my reply to your large post on why this concept can't be true, they have done this kind of twist before and it made the game one of the most memorable games in gaming history because of it..whether you love it or hate it you won't forget it!

You don't need to tell me. I've been a mess since finishing. This was so so close to being my favorite story ever.. and to have it completely ruined in the final moments was shocking. I'm not out to ruin your hopes, I'm just trying to give my realistic input. Again, if this really ends up being the case, I'll be incredibly happy, because almost anything is better than being left with what they gave us. I would just be incredibly surprised. From a rational point of view, I think Bioware just messed up, and I just hope they have enough humility to give us new endings later on, hopefully for free.

[DubVee12]

I gotta say, I admire all the blind optimism that the ending was a hallucination. There's a quote from Eomer in The Two Towers about hope that sums up exactly how I feel: "do not trust to hope. It has forsaken these lands."

[lavosslayer]

Kloborgg711 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

If people sold their copies out of frustration, well they're guddamned adults and will live with the consequences of their  actions

It's that easy?
Person A is a fan of Mass Effect.
Person A buys ME3 on release date and eagerly plays through it all.
Person A is devastated by the ending, and regrets getting so invested in the series.
Person A sells ME3 while demand is high, and doesn't think they'll need to play it again.
Bioware announces "SURPRISE! That was a fake ending all along!"
Person A already lost money, and is now required to repurchase to game to see content they could've seen in the first place, because Bioware has some extremely elaborate and sadistic marketting scheme to mess with people's emotions.

And we all end up happy with no controversy? No. Stupid idea, sorry.

Sorry that bothers you so much...but the evidence in the game seems to be to the contrary...I feel bad for the person who sold the game out of frustration/saddness or whatever emotion it is that made them feel that was a good idea. However they should have waited a few weeks to see what Bioware's plans were before hocking it at the local gamestop...

[MPSai]

omgBAMF wrote...

The "secret" ending is one of the most telling parts. Shep is laying in a pile of concrete and mortar... definitely not what the citadel is made of (I imagine). Not to mention the catalyst kid tries to guilt him away form it by saying "even you are partly synthetic" (meaning you would die by choosing this) when referring to the death of all synthetics, but then Shepard somehow lives afterwards? I think the kid is full of it and trying to trick you... or at least I hope so.

The stargazer gramps did happen since Shepard is a legend after all... not just to humans, but also to Turians, Salarians, Quarians, Geth, *insert EVERY species in galactic space*. I think that part is true, coming after the credits and all.

Shep also seems to be lying next to the remains of an Alliance shuttle, not something like the transport ships on the Citadel. 

DubVee12 wrote...

I gotta say, I admire all the blind optimism that the ending was a hallucination. There's a quote from Eomer in The Two Towers about hope that sums up exactly how I feel: "do not trust to hope. It has forsaken these lands."

 

It's not blind, most of us would rather just make up a plausible explination for the ending that's satisfying. It would be amazing if Bioware ran with it in an expansion, though. 

Modifié par MPSai, 11 mars 2012 - 02:33 .

[krystalevenstar]

For those who aren't completely sold on the indoctrination theory, it doesn't necessarily mean that this isn't still a hallucination. Maybe it's simply Shepard's psyche trying to keep fighting past death. Maybe the laser hitting Shepard knocks him/her into a near-death state. In the words of Miracle Max, "There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive." That way, if Shepard is able to stick to his/her guns about destroying the reapers, they get the boost they need to come back and keep fighting (hense the sudden, gasping breath from the rubble). If Shepard wavers in his/her resolve, Shepard dies smack dab there in the battlefield where Harbinger struck him/her down, but Shepard's psyche is still going to try to resolve that they made the right choice, that the people they love are ok, that The Reapers have been stopped in some fashion or another.

So yeah, Shep doesn't necessarily have to be indoctrinated for this theory to work. (FTR, I think it is indoctrination)

[Kitten Tactics]

Believe me, I am slowly but surely coming down as well. As much sense as this all makes, I know it isn't the case. I know they just screwed up.

But at the same time...it makes so much sense.

[Kloborgg711]

AvianCat wrote...


We are all mad about the ending, that is why we are trying to say that this ending is fake. We are making ourselves feel better with this doubt. You trying to poke holes in our theory is making people feel worse or just angry so could you just please drop it? You are not helping anyone.

Are you serious? I'm not allowed to take a critical look at this conspiracy because it might hurt you? I'm just as hurt as anyone at what happened in the end, but I don't think wishful thinking is going to get us out of this. My skepticism will not affect the likelihood of whether or not Bioware is trolling us with this ending. I'm not going to stop being reasonable because it might hurt you, no, sorry.

[kyleh619]

I would of figured someone would of started digging through the game files already. In ME2 people were digging out squad member conversations in the game disk that were not in the game (such as some lines from Liara about the Shadow Broker and Katsumi information before she was available). I wonder if someone will find some yet-unused files for a clue of future DLC.

[Kloborgg711]

lookingglassmind wrote...

But, Kloborgg711:

Imagine, for a moment, if it WAS indoctrination. If BioWare was trying to get us to fight indoctrination as players? Which may sound very weird, but hear me out.

In the ending, it seems as though the push for indoctrination is very strong. Throughout the series, the player has been united with Shepard. Our goal has been his/her goal: destroy the Reapers. S/he resists indoctrination throughout the series. It's not until the end that, when Shepard is confronted with Reaper Incarnate itself, that indoctrination becomes a very real threat. Shepard is injured, delirious. If he actually is in the presence of the Catalyst/Harbinger, he may be very vulnerable to the effects of this being. This is why the ending seems so... off. Indoctrination has been resisted throughout the series, and it is only until that moment that Shepard begins to feel it's pull.

And the player, along with Shepard, feels its pull. We are confronted with endings we never considered before. We hesitate. We waver. We agonize over the choice. Wouldn't that be a perfect set-up for implying player indoctrination? And if BioWare is silent on the issue until a majority of the choices are made (indoctrination is successful or resisted), would that not also make a beautiful theory?

I know it's likely not the case. I do no expect BioWare to have gone this metaphysical, weird, or outside of the box. It's definitely a limited theory, and myopic. But... it makes me grin, to think about it.

From a strictly storytelling point of view, this might make sense. But this is the last Mass Effect, the end, according to all sources. I just cannot see a company withholding the ending of a game from the entire community. I really can't, sorry.

[Sajuro]

Kloborgg711 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

If people sold their copies out of frustration, well they're guddamned adults and will live with the consequences of their  actions

It's that easy?
Person A is a fan of Mass Effect.
Person A buys ME3 on release date and eagerly plays through it all.
Person A is devastated by the ending, and regrets getting so invested in the series.
Person A sells ME3 while demand is high, and doesn't think they'll need to play it again.
Bioware announces "SURPRISE! That was a fake ending all along!"
Person A already lost money, and is now required to repurchase to game to see content they could've seen in the first place, because Bioware has some extremely elaborate and sadistic marketting scheme to mess with people's emotions.

And we all end up happy with no controversy? No. Stupid idea, sorry.

Not saying we're all happy and there is no controversy, but yeah I meant it when I said it is their own fault, it's my fault that I sold the new prince of persia back because I thought it blew, and it is peoples fault if the sell ME3, a new game, because they didn't like the ending. If you are going to make a choice, you better be prepared to own up to it.

[humes spork]

FugitiveMind wrote...

early on in the story, you're getting ready for a mission, discussing it around the table and there's a few seconds of the cutscene that flashes outside the room to an almost through glass looking shot of someone(thing) sneaking around outside the room listening in.

I don't remember that, but I do remember Vega complaining about it as early as you get the Normandy.

[Foulpancake]

Kloborgg711 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

If people sold their copies out of frustration, well they're guddamned adults and will live with the consequences of their  actions

It's that easy?
Person A is a fan of Mass Effect.
Person A buys ME3 on release date and eagerly plays through it all.
Person A is devastated by the ending, and regrets getting so invested in the series.
Person A sells ME3 while demand is high, and doesn't think they'll need to play it again.
Bioware announces "SURPRISE! That was a fake ending all along!"
Person A already lost money, and is now required to repurchase to game to see content they could've seen in the first place, because Bioware has some extremely elaborate and sadistic marketting scheme to mess with people's emotions.

And we all end up happy with no controversy? No. Stupid idea, sorry.

what about that twitter quote we found the other day that was something along the lines of "You'll want to keep your ME3 copy...well forever"

[Kloborgg711]

lavosslayer wrote...


Sorry that bothers you so much...but the evidence in the game seems to be to the contrary...I feel bad for the person who sold the game out of frustration/saddness or whatever emotion it is that made them feel that was a good idea. However they should have waited a few weeks to see what Bioware's plans were before hocking it at the local gamestop...

Why should they have waited a few weeks? How often do publishers announce that their game is incomplete after release? The longer they wait, the less money they'll get from selling their copy back. Sure maybe, if they were one of the relative few who came to this thread and worked it all out like this they might consider keeping it, but most players obviously won't. For most it's

"I don't like this game. I will sell it"
not
"I don't like this game. I'll hold on to it for a month in the hope that the company was just lying to me and they'll give me what I really want"

[Sajuro]

FugitiveMind wrote...

humes spork wrote...

lookingglassmind wrote...

Good work, humes. You have been invaluable to this thread, I must say.

I'd bet cash there's an Indoctrination device on the Normandy. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense. For all the traffic, deliveries, overhauls, and such the SR-2 had underwent it would have been nothing for a sleeper or Cerberus agent to sneak one onboard.

ok, days old memory here...

early on in the story, you're getting ready for a mission, discussing it around the table and there's a few seconds of the cutscene that flashes outside the room to an almost through glass looking shot of someone(thing) sneaking around outside the room listening in.

the mission then goes south because cerberus was there with no way for them to have known what you were doing unless there was a mole.

if anyone can lay the specifics out on what I'm shoddily remembering it'd be appreciated, but I'd love to tie that in with the hidden indoctrination device.

I'd find it myself but I don't remember exactly where it was early on, and my wife is playing...

Are you talking about the Sur'Kesh mission? I always thought the mole was a salarian (and it might still be) but that would make a lot of sense.

[Drewskii]

Kloborgg711 wrote...

From a strictly storytelling point of view, this might make sense. But this is the last Mass Effect, the end, according to all sources. I just cannot see a company withholding the ending of a game from the entire community. I really can't, sorry

True, but on that same note I cannot see a company passing that ending through and being ok with it. So either way... lol

[Kloborgg711]

Sajuro wrote...
If you are going to make a choice, you better be prepared to own up to it.

Bull. You can't expect people to reason out that the product they bought is incomplete. 

[Fishbulb]

Shephard was just on a DMT trip.

[MPSai]

Sajuro wrote...

FugitiveMind wrote...

humes spork wrote...

lookingglassmind wrote...

Good work, humes. You have been invaluable to this thread, I must say.

I'd bet cash there's an Indoctrination device on the Normandy. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense. For all the traffic, deliveries, overhauls, and such the SR-2 had underwent it would have been nothing for a sleeper or Cerberus agent to sneak one onboard.

ok, days old memory here...

early on in the story, you're getting ready for a mission, discussing it around the table and there's a few seconds of the cutscene that flashes outside the room to an almost through glass looking shot of someone(thing) sneaking around outside the room listening in.

the mission then goes south because cerberus was there with no way for them to have known what you were doing unless there was a mole.

if anyone can lay the specifics out on what I'm shoddily remembering it'd be appreciated, but I'd love to tie that in with the hidden indoctrination device.

I'd find it myself but I don't remember exactly where it was early on, and my wife is playing...

Are you talking about the Sur'Kesh mission? I always thought the mole was a salarian (and it might still be) but that would make a lot of sense.

Huh, yeah there was talk about someone leaking information to Cerberus and then the subplot was just dropped. Unless Kai Leng was hanging out on the ship.. ugh.

Modifié par MPSai, 11 mars 2012 - 02:37 .

[FugitiveMind]

humes spork wrote...

FugitiveMind wrote...

early on in the story, you're getting ready for a mission, discussing it around the table and there's a few seconds of the cutscene that flashes outside the room to an almost through glass looking shot of someone(thing) sneaking around outside the room listening in.

I don't remember that, but I do remember Vega complaining about it as early as you get the Normandy.

I want to say it was right before Sur'kesh, but I can't remember. Now I need to troll youtube and hope against all hope I find something...

EDIT: or everyone could answer while I was responding LOL

Modifié par FugitiveMind, 11 mars 2012 - 02:39 .

[Sajuro]

Kloborgg711 wrote...

lavosslayer wrote...


Sorry that bothers you so much...but the evidence in the game seems to be to the contrary...I feel bad for the person who sold the game out of frustration/saddness or whatever emotion it is that made them feel that was a good idea. However they should have waited a few weeks to see what Bioware's plans were before hocking it at the local gamestop...

Why should they have waited a few weeks? How often do publishers announce that their game is incomplete after release? The longer they wait, the less money they'll get from selling their copy back. Sure maybe, if they were one of the relative few who came to this thread and worked it all out like this they might consider keeping it, but most players obviously won't. For most it's

"I don't like this game. I will sell it"
not
"I don't like this game. I'll hold on to it for a month in the hope that the company was just lying to me and they'll give me what I really want"

Still, their own perogative if they can't find anything good about the game to keep and I don't think they would buy DLC if they said "I don't like this game, I will sell it"