57139 réponses à ce sujet

[cobnut]

Darjeer wrote...

Okay. Could someone explain to me how this fits in the whole "Shepard is hallucinating" -theory?

Shepard hallucinating everything after the laser:
I noticed last night that if you take too long during the final scene, you will get game over with the message reading "The Crucible has been destroyed". At first I was sure that this indicated that everything that happened was real. After playing the bit just before the final push to Conduit I realized that they actually bring The Crucible to Sol system before they storm the Conduit. So everything might be just hallucination after all and if Shepard takes too long breaking out of it, then reapers destroy The Crucible.

However, you can't run out of time during the part before TIM encounter (or at least I haven't been able to). Wouldn't the reapers still destroy The Crucible after some time regardless at what section of the Citadel your hallucination-avatar is on? 

The whole timelimit happens only during the last part. Doesn't this kinda indicate that reapers aren't aware of Crucible entering the Sol system or see it as a threat during the pre-TIM part, but become aware of it after it docks with Citadel. So someone must have "opened" the Citadel for Crucible to be able to dock, but if Shepard is still in Earth hallucinating, then who did this?

Shepard hallucinating everything after TIM:
Going with "Shepard is hallucinating after The Crucible docks" would be also be kinda impossible. If he's hallucinating from that point forward then he wouldn't wake up in Earth, but in rubble inside Citadel. But Citadel shouldn't be in that shape if we never chose the destroy option, right?

There's the possibility that while Shepard is hallucinating on the floor of Citadel, reapers came and destroyed the Crucible. But that would mean another game over -screen, so this can't be the case either.

Shepard being indoctrinated:
Also someone said earlier that Shepard might just be indoctrinated and Catalyst brought him to Citadel to die. So the reapers destroying the Crucible would be kind of plan B if Shepard picked up "wrong" choice or couldn't decide. This option is also kinda odd, if you take into account the rubble-scene. Everyone is saying it's clearly in London, but this is impossible in any scenario so Shepard must be waking in the Citadel.

This would also mean that everything that happened was real and it wasn't really that much indoctrination, but manipulation from Catalyst to ensure that reapers aren't destroyed.

Okay, so what am I missing?

Shepard hallucinates everything after the laser beam due to his indoctrination and wakes up after he made the right choice and beats the reaper in his mind. Nothing you mentioned speaks against this theory.

[njfluffy19]

Lost Cipher wrote...

Dialogue for the sake of dialogue... Make the world seem real by characters commenting about their enviroment.

Commenting about their environment is a bit coincidental in this sense, but to each their own.

[Goikiu]

mmL wrote...

Here's a completely different line of reasoning why this has to be true. Don't take it too seriously though

EA and Bioware are companies trying to make a profit.
How do you make profit? -> By selling DLCs. They have enough experience and numbers with all the Dragon Age and Mass Effect games to know how they can capitalize on these.
So from the start, ME3 must have been developed to sell future DLCs. If they had incorporated a very satisfactory ending, fewer people would have any reason to buy DLCs, the story would have been wrapped up anyway.
So they did the opposite: Give us an ending like the one we got, an charge money for the real and epic ending everyone wants. Chances are everyone will be buying it and everyone will be happy to throw the money at bioware just to find some closure.

Smart move, Bioware, smart move.
And damn you for all the future games with the same concept.

How much is heavy a video file?
Want a Epilogue DLC be extreme large to be downloaded?
I Know a lot of people (a big lot) who don't buy dlc ... the prefer to  obtain them with other ways... so i do not think that dlc are the way... i've ended ME1 and ME2 a lot of time, i've taken the Dlc because i've really loved those two games... i won't take any GM Dlc (for sure) and i think a lot of people from Xbox world would do the same as me. 

[Turtlicious]

I mentioned that the crucible is a metaphor for your mind. The crucible being destroyed is simply the reapers tearing your mind apart with the force of of their might.

[RobT2012]

Tsantilas wrote...

RobT2012 wrote...

heard of a company called blizzard? They do this all the time with their wow expansions. Possibly first time its been done by a console game. It's frustrating as hell if true, but at the same time my elation in being able to get the ending i want at a delayed point in time would outweigh the frustration i am having right now.

False.  All WoW expansions to date have been wrapped up with a final encounter with the main antagonist of the expansion.  In fact I'd say they do the exact opposite, because when a new expansion is to be released they start building up towards it with patches before the expansion is even out.

In any case... a free patch that expands on the ending would be welcome, though I find it very unlikely that they planned it all along (if they even do release a patch or dlc with a different ending at all).  It's bad design imo.

As for the end of ME3 being a hallucination? Meh, I'm not completely rulling it out.  It seems very unlikely, and I dont find it any better than the plain old confusing space magic interperetation with the plot holes and unanswered questions.  Especially if it's all just a way to sell more DLC.

Sorry you are wrong here. They release the expanion and you get immediate access to lots more play areas. However the final boss encounter of the entire expansion is tucked away somewhere safe from the mobs of Alliance and Horde. Slowly over the course of months, wow open up the raids expansions, finally opening up the last major boss battle about a year after the expansions have been released.

They did this with Wrath of the Lich King, waited for abosultely ages to have the chance to finally defeat him, and they did the same with Cataclysm. Played through all the additional content of the expansion very early on, but Blizzard did not allow us to tank him straigh after that took forever. In fact i stopped playing wow in september after i did the firelands raids, at that point the patch update for the deathwing encounter had still not been released then.

Point being, perhaps yeah it was all available in the orginal content purchased, and the updates were just wow rebalancing game mechanics and removing locks. Or they streamed the extra content when they wanted. Either way it doesnt matter, they actively limit how fast a player can move through their expansion material to the final boss fight,

[ArkkAngel007]

JasonTan87 wrote...

squee365 wrote...

The ending of ME3 is harbinger's plan C... It all makes sense.

As much as I want to believe in this, what makes sense to me is that we're mostly grasping at straws and making up in our heads the ending we really wanted Bioware to give us; an ending which they didn't because they dropped the ball and prefer to make MP DLC.

Multiplayer DLC is considerably easier to create and implement than campaign DLC, especially in a game like this.  Hopefully we will hear something at PAX (odd that ME will be given a presence after it's release anyways, even if it's only been about a month).

It's only been 4-5 days since the game went world-wide, and you have to give people time to go through it.  If we don't hear anything by PAX regarding the issue, well, I suppose we're all dead in the water on this.

[Kioux]

J4N3_M3 wrote...

as far as we know, no one has ever resisted direct indoctrination yet so no one really knows what this could cause to the Reapers. We also don't have any idea how the Crucible is supposed to work. What if the Catalyst isn't the child but actually Shepard resisting the indoctrination, hereby activating the Crucible to destroy the Reapers by releasing some form of virus or something among the Reapers?

just thinking out loud xD

Actually, when I went to sleep this morning ( thanks by the way, this thread kept me up way too long) I couldn't drift off, because my mind was wrapping around that.
What if Shepard was part of the catalyst... or the one thing activating it? After all, the Citadel was also a means to signal and communicate among the Reapers, yes? So, what if Shepard's decision - be it by the means of technology within him, the fact that he was "virtualized" before, or because - as shallow as it may sound - s/he is the chosen one (or simply different from anyone else: cipher, resurrected, killed sovereign, delayed the inevitable) is magnified by the Citadel/conduit and sent throughout the relay net? The godchild could be the Reaper's last attempt to influence Shepard, either by indoctrination or by gaining some small access to the proccesses of the Citadel.
I know there isn't much - if anything - to support this, but concering some of the plotholes, it is as good as any other ending, heh, well at least for me. So, the simple thing is that there is so much mentioning that nobody knows how it works - only that it could be able to destroy the Reapers - that there has to be more to it, and I certainly don't like the idea of the middle path!

Ah well, it's becoming a path of seeing signs and clawing my way away from the endings.

[Gowienczyk]

Goikiu wrote...

mmL wrote...

Here's a completely different line of reasoning why this has to be true. Don't take it too seriously though

EA and Bioware are companies trying to make a profit.
How do you make profit? -> By selling DLCs. They have enough experience and numbers with all the Dragon Age and Mass Effect games to know how they can capitalize on these.
So from the start, ME3 must have been developed to sell future DLCs. If they had incorporated a very satisfactory ending, fewer people would have any reason to buy DLCs, the story would have been wrapped up anyway.
So they did the opposite: Give us an ending like the one we got, an charge money for the real and epic ending everyone wants. Chances are everyone will be buying it and everyone will be happy to throw the money at bioware just to find some closure.

Smart move, Bioware, smart move.
And damn you for all the future games with the same concept.

How much is heavy a video file?
Want a Epilogue DLC be extreme large to be downloaded?
I Know a lot of people (a big lot) who don't buy dlc ... the prefer to  obtain them with other ways... so i do not think that dlc are the way... i've ended ME1 and ME2 a lot of time, i've taken the Dlc because i've really loved those two games... i won't take any GM Dlc (for sure) and i think a lot of people from Xbox world would do the same as me. 

This xbox user says he is not of this opinion. 

[BlackDragonBane]

BlackDragonBane wrote...

 

Going to analyze somethings that have been brought up before, but bear repeating.

0:40 - you hear, I'm assuming, Coates over the comm channel go 'God... they're all gone.'

0:46 - you hear the following conversation:
- Female voice: Did we get anyone to the beam?
- Coates; Negative. Our entire force was decimated

Now, if this was reality, Coates would have seen Shepard get up from where they had fallen and approaching the beam. Such is not the case. The comm link just goes silent from that point.

at about 1:00, Shepard picks up the magic infinte god pistol



If you look behind you, the ENTIRE background is blurred beyond recognition and much of the area you JUST passed through appears to be missing. There is also the two dead trees that were not there during the mad dash approach to the Conduit.

2:31 - You hear Anderson over the comm link, yet if Coates is correct and the team is wiped out, how is Anderson contacting Shepard?

2:55 - When asked if he is up in the Citadel as well, Anderson says he followed Shepard up, yet we did not see him ANYWHERE on the battlefield. Plus, he says 'we' distinctly, meaning others made it on the Citadel, yet we don't see them and they supposedly were dropped off somewhere else by the Conduit.

3:30 - Shepard picks up ANOTER infite god-pistol. What happened to the one he/she just had? If you noticed before, the first pistol is mysteriously gone.

4:56 - The movine panels bear a striking resemblence to the engine system on the Shadow Broker's ship. This may be just level design but if you look on either side, it goes as far as you can see and you see no other avenues of reaching the console room.

6:00 - Somehow, Anderson beats Shepard to the console room despite there being no other paths and not seeing Anderson either behind or in front of you until this point.

6:13 - The Huskified Illusive Man is suddenly right behind you and there was no indication he was even ON the Citadel. You also begin to hear whispers as he talks and the oily black shadows appear on the edges of the screen. You will also hear a Reaper like deep trilling noise accompanying this.

8:15 - TIM forces Shepard to shoot Anderson. Jump to 8:22 and pay VERY CLOSE attention to where Anderson has their hand.



Notice where Shepard's arm is and the fact that she is suddenly bleeding profusely when she wasn't moments prior to shooting Anderson? Look again when Shepard is outside the Citadel and talking to Catalyst.



Notice the blood on her arm is suddenly gone?

There are WAY too many inconsistences in just the scene leading up to meeting Catalyst for it not to be anything more than an indoctrinated halluciation. There's is symbolism in the conversaiton with Anderson and TIM, missing envrionments and added elements that weren't there before. There is too much 'wrong' with this whole sequence for it to be oversight on Bioware developers. SOMETHING is going on here beyond what we've seen.

For the non-believers, new comers, and those that might have missed it.

I'm going to be working on my own little vid once I have all the footage compiled of the application of the indoctrination theory through all the games and DLC.

[ba0987]

 Can totally see this the ending made no sense but fits the description of indoctrination.... 

Bioware love twists like this and so do i, if what you guys are saying comes through them I would be made up!!!

After all look what they did with KOTOR... No one saw that coming
 

[Goikiu]

Gowienczyk wrote...

Goikiu wrote...

mmL wrote...

Here's a completely different line of reasoning why this has to be true. Don't take it too seriously though

EA and Bioware are companies trying to make a profit.
How do you make profit? -> By selling DLCs. They have enough experience and numbers with all the Dragon Age and Mass Effect games to know how they can capitalize on these.
So from the start, ME3 must have been developed to sell future DLCs. If they had incorporated a very satisfactory ending, fewer people would have any reason to buy DLCs, the story would have been wrapped up anyway.
So they did the opposite: Give us an ending like the one we got, an charge money for the real and epic ending everyone wants. Chances are everyone will be buying it and everyone will be happy to throw the money at bioware just to find some closure.

Smart move, Bioware, smart move.
And damn you for all the future games with the same concept.

How much is heavy a video file?
Want a Epilogue DLC be extreme large to be downloaded?
I Know a lot of people (a big lot) who don't buy dlc ... the prefer to  obtain them with other ways... so i do not think that dlc are the way... i've ended ME1 and ME2 a lot of time, i've taken the Dlc because i've really loved those two games... i won't take any GM Dlc (for sure) and i think a lot of people from Xbox world would do the same as me. 

This xbox user says he is not of this opinion. 

Sorry, i where talking about Multi-player Dlc 

[Elenterx]

Oh boy.
http://xbox360.ign.c.../1220617p1.html

[Gowienczyk]

Oh, I don't give a frack about multiplayer.

[solidsnake78]

May not mean anything, but when when get hit by the beam it fades to white, in films and tv dosent that usually mean dream? Like at the end of Total Recall?

[keith123456789]

all we can do is hope right

[Dessalines]

cobnut wrote...

Darjeer wrote...

Okay. Could someone explain to me how this fits in the whole "Shepard is hallucinating" -theory?

Shepard hallucinating everything after the laser:
I noticed last night that if you take too long during the final scene, you will get game over with the message reading "The Crucible has been destroyed". At first I was sure that this indicated that everything that happened was real. After playing the bit just before the final push to Conduit I realized that they actually bring The Crucible to Sol system before they storm the Conduit. So everything might be just hallucination after all and if Shepard takes too long breaking out of it, then reapers destroy The Crucible.

However, you can't run out of time during the part before TIM encounter (or at least I haven't been able to). Wouldn't the reapers still destroy The Crucible after some time regardless at what section of the Citadel your hallucination-avatar is on? 

The whole timelimit happens only during the last part. Doesn't this kinda indicate that reapers aren't aware of Crucible entering the Sol system or see it as a threat during the pre-TIM part, but become aware of it after it docks with Citadel. So someone must have "opened" the Citadel for Crucible to be able to dock, but if Shepard is still in Earth hallucinating, then who did this?

Shepard hallucinating everything after TIM:
Going with "Shepard is hallucinating after The Crucible docks" would be also be kinda impossible. If he's hallucinating from that point forward then he wouldn't wake up in Earth, but in rubble inside Citadel. But Citadel shouldn't be in that shape if we never chose the destroy option, right?

There's the possibility that while Shepard is hallucinating on the floor of Citadel, reapers came and destroyed the Crucible. But that would mean another game over -screen, so this can't be the case either.

Shepard being indoctrinated:
Also someone said earlier that Shepard might just be indoctrinated and Catalyst brought him to Citadel to die. So the reapers destroying the Crucible would be kind of plan B if Shepard picked up "wrong" choice or couldn't decide. This option is also kinda odd, if you take into account the rubble-scene. Everyone is saying it's clearly in London, but this is impossible in any scenario so Shepard must be waking in the Citadel.

This would also mean that everything that happened was real and it wasn't really that much indoctrination, but manipulation from Catalyst to ensure that reapers aren't destroyed.

Okay, so what am I missing?

Shepard hallucinates everything after the laser beam due to his indoctrination and wakes up after he made the right choice and beats the reaper in his mind. Nothing you mentioned speaks against this theory.

If you are alive, and you do not enter the beam, you see yourself fall out do to your wounds. You get a critical mission failure. I don't think you die in the Citadel either because of your wounds. Honestly, I think that that is the only time in the game that actually explains to you why you did not win. The Reapers are aware of the crucible. They even state that Harbringer is coming to the Citadel to defend it.

[Gowienczyk]

Elenterx wrote...

Oh boy.
http://xbox360.ign.c.../1220617p1.html

$$$$$

I do like the idea of playing a batarian and geth, though. Maybe it'll make me give a frack about multiplayer.

[MDT1]

Another question, where did Anderson come from? I saw exactly one way up to the platform.

[Kikaaa]

Gowienczyk wrote...

Oh, I don't give a frack about multiplayer.

This. 

[Shikua]

I dearly hope this is true. Hope is all we organics have after all.

[Darjeer]

cobnut wrote...

Darjeer wrote...

Okay. Could someone explain to me how this fits in the whole "Shepard is hallucinating" -theory?

Shepard hallucinating everything after the laser:
I noticed last night that if you take too long during the final scene, you will get game over with the message reading "The Crucible has been destroyed". At first I was sure that this indicated that everything that happened was real. After playing the bit just before the final push to Conduit I realized that they actually bring The Crucible to Sol system before they storm the Conduit. So everything might be just hallucination after all and if Shepard takes too long breaking out of it, then reapers destroy The Crucible.

However, you can't run out of time during the part before TIM encounter (or at least I haven't been able to). Wouldn't the reapers still destroy The Crucible after some time regardless at what section of the Citadel your hallucination-avatar is on? 

The whole timelimit happens only during the last part. Doesn't this kinda indicate that reapers aren't aware of Crucible entering the Sol system or see it as a threat during the pre-TIM part, but become aware of it after it docks with Citadel. So someone must have "opened" the Citadel for Crucible to be able to dock, but if Shepard is still in Earth hallucinating, then who did this?

Shepard hallucinating everything after TIM:
Going with "Shepard is hallucinating after The Crucible docks" would be also be kinda impossible. If he's hallucinating from that point forward then he wouldn't wake up in Earth, but in rubble inside Citadel. But Citadel shouldn't be in that shape if we never chose the destroy option, right?

There's the possibility that while Shepard is hallucinating on the floor of Citadel, reapers came and destroyed the Crucible. But that would mean another game over -screen, so this can't be the case either.

Shepard being indoctrinated:
Also someone said earlier that Shepard might just be indoctrinated and Catalyst brought him to Citadel to die. So the reapers destroying the Crucible would be kind of plan B if Shepard picked up "wrong" choice or couldn't decide. This option is also kinda odd, if you take into account the rubble-scene. Everyone is saying it's clearly in London, but this is impossible in any scenario so Shepard must be waking in the Citadel.

This would also mean that everything that happened was real and it wasn't really that much indoctrination, but manipulation from Catalyst to ensure that reapers aren't destroyed.

Okay, so what am I missing?

Shepard hallucinates everything after the laser beam due to his indoctrination and wakes up after he made the right choice and beats the reaper in his mind. Nothing you mentioned speaks against this theory.

Nothing? I thought I was pretty clear about what speaks against it, namely the whole "Crucible has been destroyed" -part.

[ShepardSpectre]

Hello! Any answers from bioware yet?

[Terran235]

Shikua wrote...

I dearly hope this is true. Hope is all we organics have after all.

Says the geth.

[ComfortablyNumb]

LadyAly wrote...

I really would like to have a proof if the *rubble Scene* still exists. I ended my playthrough last night and I didn't get it - even with all the the necessary points I didn't get it.
And what would it mean if they removed the scene ?

I finished it about 3 hours ago and got the scene. I had a little over 4k points, shot TMI and chose "Destroy". It's really strange, that people with (theoretically) better stats didn't get it...

[byne]

One thing I forgot completely about until EDI just brought it up is the Reaper IFF installed aboard the Normandy.

Not sure if someone else has already brought it up, but is it possible that the IFF itself could be indoctrinating the crew of the Normandy?

It could explain why Shepard slowly gets more indoctrinated over the course of the game, and doesnt start off indoctrinated: until the Reapers invaded you were grounded and not aboard the Normandy. You only actually had the IFF for a very short time in ME2, but its mentioned when you talk to your squad on Earth for the last time that its been months since you left Earth, which seems like plenty of time for the 'slow, patient indoctrination' mentioned in the codex.

Modifié par byne, 13 mars 2012 - 04:25 .