57139 réponses à ce sujet

[mmL]

Also with low EMS, Earth gets destroyed as well, or heavily devastated. So if Shep wakes up, he might think twice about destroying the reapers. If he wakes up.

[Lambchopz]

savionen wrote...

Synthesis is definitely not the "best ending".

Saren tried to do Synthesis and look where that went. It also completely denies the entire galaxy of free will AND you don't know what actually happens to the Reapers.

Doesn't mean the writers didn't see it that way. Wouldn't be the first time BioWare made a misguided story decision that made no sense.

I like this theory and I think it's the best alternative at the moment, I think people need to stop asserting that there is no other alternative though. Really doesn't do the theory any good.

[Noob451]

Capeo wrote...

Dessalines wrote...

Capeo wrote...

There is no hallucination. The Synergy ending opens last. It's easier to get control and destroy. The leaked script goes so far to say that the Synergy ending is the "perfect ending" that you're working towards. Not to mention the epilogue fires no matter what and it clearly shows that the Reapers have been defeated and the relays are gone. None of that would make sense if were an indoctrinated hallucination.

Actually, the shepard lives in the hardest to get.

So?  That doesn't mean it's the "perfect ending".  That ending is in the script, yet the script is clear that the "perfect ending", in those exact words, is the Synergy Ending.  Why do you think they went through so much trouble to humanize synthetics?  The "perfect ending" in BW's view is the one where organics and synthetics are forever joined removing the worry about a singularity ever again.

so the "Perfect ending" is doing what the reapers wanted to do all along?   no.

[k8ee]

kent80082006 wrote...

Auresta wrote...

No one addressed this person's question and I'd like to see insight, in relation to low EMS and high EMS affecting the star-brat's dialogue and choices offered:

"Yes, it does, but I've also heard that if you saved the collector base in ME2 that the only default option you get with a low EMS on the citadel is Control, whereas if you don't save the base your only low EMS option is Destroy. Has anyone personally seen this proved?"

You're right someone need to examine that.

I haven't seen it personally but from what I heard it seems that the destroy option is always available along side with the control option, whereas the destroy option could appear alone. So the player is never forced to choose the control option. 

But we need confirmation

I have seen a video of this, where you can only pick destroy... I will see if I can find the video....

Also, be sure to check out this. It is a great way to make the retake ME3 cause seem less negative and gets back a the articles about us being whiny children.

[Bigdoser]

Words of renegade shep 

As my renegade Shepard said "Trying to comprimise or understand the reapers is a sure fire way to get yourself indoctrinated!, I am going to send the reapers straight to hell!".

This was when talking to TIM its not the exact words but its close.

Just to let you lot know getting that scene at the end is actually the hardest since it requires 4000 ems if you "saved" anderson and if you did not it requires 5000+ ems. The reason why I think only destory is there with low ems is cause the reapers raped you there is no point in indoctrinating shepard since the reapers has pretty much messed up hammer and sword. Also lets not forget if your ems is low the catalyst says "Why are you here?" and if it is high it says "Wake up". 

When he says wake up to me that seems like desperation. 

Modifié par Bigdoser, 13 mars 2012 - 05:38 .

[Terran235]

Fledgey wrote...

https://twitter.com/...620565160706048
I... erm... well...

Damn developers and their code talk.

[Black Raptor]

squee365 wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...

The ending can't be a hallucination

Certain choices you make along the way make certain "choices" at the end impossible.

Some scenarios exist where the only option available to Shepard is Destroy. Why would the indoctrination only give one option in that case?

We've explained this before...

Lower EMS = less time, less effect of indoctrination, less leeway to convince shepard other options.

Higher EMS = more time, more effect of indoctrination, shepard easily convinced by other options.

Except you have the exact same number of dreams either way.
This "explaination" as to why some playthroughs only get destroy then doesn't explain why some playthroughs only get control.
"Not enough time" to convince him to not destroy the Reapers?

[zezia]

if you have very low ems you can only get the destroy. if you have low ems and chosen the destroy ending you see people disintegrating by the blast so maybe the reapers trick shep into doing the only ending to kill organics

[mmL]

Capeo wrote...

Dessalines wrote...

Capeo wrote...

There is no hallucination. The Synergy ending opens last. It's easier to get control and destroy. The leaked script goes so far to say that the Synergy ending is the "perfect ending" that you're working towards. Not to mention the epilogue fires no matter what and it clearly shows that the Reapers have been defeated and the relays are gone. None of that would make sense if were an indoctrinated hallucination.

Actually, the shepard lives in the hardest to get.

So?  That doesn't mean it's the "perfect ending".  That ending is in the script, yet the script is clear that the "perfect ending", in those exact words, is the Synergy Ending.  Why do you think they went through so much trouble to humanize synthetics?  The "perfect ending" in BW's view is the one where organics and synthetics are forever joined removing the worry about a singularity ever again.

Perhaps the script was leaked intentionally to INDOCTRINATE everyone that Synthesis was the good ending. Just think about it...

[Dessalines]

Why is "changed " in quotations? Lol, does that mean it was always a crappy ending?

[Naahka]

Hmm... I thought, at first, that these hallucination-theories are crazy. But... After reading a few posts... and after looking a few videos... I think that I believe this. Or maybe I am just in denial.

Modifié par Naahka, 13 mars 2012 - 05:38 .

[holyshock18]

Smiley556 wrote...

http://social.biowar...ex/9872108&lf=8
check the link he refers to

Isent that kinda what we are thinking here. And dosent a Bioware employer Speficaly point him to that theory?? So what does that mean. Does that mean we really nailed it or?

Hmm

[savionen]

Lambchopz wrote...

savionen wrote...

Synthesis is definitely not the "best ending".

Saren tried to do Synthesis and look where that went. It also completely denies the entire galaxy of free will AND you don't know what actually happens to the Reapers.

Doesn't mean the writers didn't see it that way. Wouldn't be the first time BioWare made a misguided story decision that made no sense.

I like this theory and I think it's the best alternative at the moment, I think people need to stop asserting that there is no other alternative though. Really doesn't do the theory any good.

I also meant that it's only middle the road on how easy it is to get. Synthesis is actually one of the easier "positive" endings. Doing the Destroy option and living requires the highest EMS score. In both ME1 and ME2 getting the best endings required the best choices.

[Lost Cipher]

Its also possible that this theory is right, but the ending won't arrive until 2014 in Mass Effect 4.

[Capeo]

Evil_medved wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Descedent wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Neuthung wrote...

Tsantilas wrote...

RobT2012 wrote...

Just a thought...... even if the citadel has some sort of spooky science magic, that would allow a person to freefal from space and survive..... what the hell are the chances of you falling all the way from that distance back to london streets? 

How do we know he lands in london?  All we see in the cinematic is rubble and a bit of burnt armor.  It could be anywhere.

It has to be because it's the only thing that makes sense. The Citadel was high in the atmosphere of Earth, if Shep was really there, there's no way he re-enters earth with half of his pressurized suit destroyed and no helmet. The ONLY viable explanations are the indoctrination theory or studio oversight by Bioware.

It's just an Easter Egg tossed in for people who get their EMS very high.  It makes no more or less sense than anything else in the debacle that is these endings.

agreed, considering control can be the only ending you can get if you don't do enough.

Exactly.  And Synergy is the last to unlock and it also outright called the "perfect ending" you are working for in the leaked script.  The script also has the conversations with TIM and the Guardian and mentions nothing about hallucinations or indoctrination except in regards to TIM.

Nope, synergy is easy to get.

You're wrong.  Synergy opens last at 2800.  You can get Destroy and Control at the minimum of 1750.  Just because you get an Easter Egg for getting a super high EMS doesn't make it the perfect ending.

The script also outright says Synergy is the perfect ending and the entire galaxy is saved.  This is BWs words.

[Noob451]

Naahka wrote...

Hmm... I thought, at first, that these hallucination-theories are crazy. But... After reading a few posts... and after looking a few videos... I think that I believe this. Or maybe I am just in denial.

nothing wrong with having hope and hey, if we're wrong, this will be my true ending.

[BlackDragonBane]

Ok, I'm seeing this 'indoctrination doesn't work because EMS scores give you different options' This was already discussed and I'm just going to go over it again in a very simple manner.

EMS not only determines the amount of resources available and the size of the fleets and ground forces at Shepard's command, but also how LONG it takes you to get them.

Rushed Play-through: Low EMS Score = very weak military force, small fleets, missing a lot of resources.
--- Using the Indoctrination Theory with this scenario, the indoctrination has had little time to manifest itself in Shepard's mind BUT when having the dream/hallucination, you are presented with only Destroy (or Control from what I'm hearing) option because there is no hope. The Reapers KNOW you don't have the firepower or troops to be a real threat, so they won't bother convincing Shepard to their side, they'll give Shepard the illusion of hope and when (or if) Shepard wakes up, the Reapers will utterly crush the resistence and continue the cycle.

Inversely, with Control the Reapers feel you are too weak willed to resist them and use Control as an appealing choice, making you believe you can send the Reapers back to Dark Space and end the war. No, you can't, the Reapers are tricking you into becoming their slave wililngly and likely would use Shepard as their vanguard to sabatoge and destroy the resistence from within, provided Shepard even survives which does not seem like the case at all.

Complete Play-through: High EMS score = strong military force, powerful fleets, plenty of available resources.
---- Under the indoctrination theory with this scenario, the indoctrination has had a much longer time to manifest in Shepard's psyche, but also the Reapers must now contend with a much more powerful resistence force. Self-preservation kicks in for the Reapers and they present Shepard with multiple choices. IF you pay attention to Catalyst, he deliberately makes an effort to paint Destroy in a horrible light and steer Shepard from making the choice.

Catalyst also emphasizes that Control or Synthesis are noble sacrifices for Shepard and that Control will mean Shepard can keep the cycle from happening again or Synthesis would neutralize the purpose of the Reapers, prevent war between synthetics and organics, and bring ever-lasting peace.

THESE ARE ALL REAPER LIES. Control and Synthesis are the final attempts at Indoctironation by Harbinger. IT wants Sheaprd to willingly pick to succumb so they can use Shepard to destroy the resistence. Who would excpect the hero of the galaxy to become a Reaper sleeper agent after all? It's the perfect trap and asset for the Reapers to ensure their cycle continues.

Synthesis is the option Saren chose in ME1 and it lead to his indoctrination. He believed the Reapers would spare all organics if everyone willingly submitted to them.
Control is the option TIM tries to chose in ME3 and it leads to his (likely) indoctrination and Cerebrus's repeated attempts at thwarting Shepard while TIM keeps believing he is doing 'what is best'

Indoctrination is well supported by details from the game. Anderson and TIM are only representations of Shepard's resolve and Harbinger's indoctrination and the choices at the end ONLY affect if Shepard becomes indoctrionated or resists, either resulting in them becoming a sleeper agent, dying on the battlefield from the mental strain, or waking up to continue the fight.

[Descedent]

Lost Cipher wrote...

Its also possible that this theory is right, but the ending won't arrive until 2014 in Mass Effect 4.

screams mass effect 4, and also screams prequels

[jackncoke28]

Dessalines wrote...

Why is "changed " in quotations? Lol, does that mean it was always a crappy ending?

Could be leaving the door open. By putting change in quotations seems to be saying, ending is different, but not cus we 'changed' anything, moreso cus there is more to it. wishful thinking on my part

[balance5050]

Bigdoser wrote...

Words of renegade shep 

As my renegade Shepard said "Trying to comprimise or understand the reapers is a sure fire way to get yourself indoctrinated!, I am going to send the reapers straight to hell!".

This was when talking to TIM its not the exact words but its close.

Just to let you lot know getting that scene at the end is actually the hardest since it requires 4000 ems if you "saved" anderson and if you did not it requires 5000+ ems. The reason why I think only destory is there with low ems is cause the reapers raped you there is no point in indoctrinating shepard since the reapers has pretty much messed up hammer and sword. Also lets not forget if your ems is low the catalyst says "Why are you here?" and if it is high it says "Wake up". 

When he says wake up to me that seems like desperation. 

Whether the ending is backwards or meant to confuse, the end should show that renegade Shep would last longer then "let's compromise with the enemy " paragon Shep.

[Elendstourist]

Fledgey wrote...

https://twitter.com/...620565160706048
I... erm... well...

Is that good or bad for the indoctrination theory?

[RobT2012]

mscotch wrote...

Descedent wrote...

unless it's space magic, he didn't fall from space and land on his back on earth without burning up entering the earths atmosphere, you would splatter into a million pieces, given your body even made it past the atmosphere.

Anderson says before you even start the earth mission, that the beam is used to transport organics from earth to the citadel. Shepard could have just used the beam to transport back to earth. 

except you limped a great deal of distance from where you landed supposedly landed at the citadel, then a magic platform took you for a ride after you pretty much collapsed and died. If this was all real, how the hell could a nearly dead shep leg it all that distance back lol

[PrivateFrost]

110 pages to read... oh god what. Did Bioware say anything?

[Capeo]

Noob451 wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Dessalines wrote...

Capeo wrote...

There is no hallucination. The Synergy ending opens last. It's easier to get control and destroy. The leaked script goes so far to say that the Synergy ending is the "perfect ending" that you're working towards. Not to mention the epilogue fires no matter what and it clearly shows that the Reapers have been defeated and the relays are gone. None of that would make sense if were an indoctrinated hallucination.

Actually, the shepard lives in the hardest to get.

So?  That doesn't mean it's the "perfect ending".  That ending is in the script, yet the script is clear that the "perfect ending", in those exact words, is the Synergy Ending.  Why do you think they went through so much trouble to humanize synthetics?  The "perfect ending" in BW's view is the one where organics and synthetics are forever joined removing the worry about a singularity ever again.

so the "Perfect ending" is doing what the reapers wanted to do all along?   no.

Dude, I'm just telling you what the script says not what I think.  All the endings suck in my view.  This is also the reason why control and destroy open before Synergy.  

[Lambchopz]

Black Raptor wrote...

squee365 wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...

The ending can't be a hallucination

Certain choices you make along the way make certain "choices" at the end impossible.

Some scenarios exist where the only option available to Shepard is Destroy. Why would the indoctrination only give one option in that case?

We've explained this before...

Lower EMS = less time, less effect of indoctrination, less leeway to convince shepard other options.

Higher EMS = more time, more effect of indoctrination, shepard easily convinced by other options.

Except you have the exact same number of dreams either way.
This "explaination" as to why some playthroughs only get destroy then doesn't explain why some playthroughs only get control.
"Not enough time" to convince him to not destroy the Reapers?

I think the explanation is fine here. By having lower EMS, you have less resistance to the Reapers outside of Shep and his crew. That would make it much easier for them to have their way with Shepard without resistance.

At the very least, with a high EMS, this becomes harder because they are either getting destroyed or are just super annoyed.

That also makes EMS feel SLIGHTLY more important outside of just being a mathematical rep of how good your ending will be.

So yeah, if you are trying to prove this theory or argue for it, that is a fine explanation.

Most people in this theory are simply rejecting the current cinematics as any more then a hallucination or a simple placeholder, so I think to some the cinematics are irrelevant for now. The ones who like this theory at least.