Aller au contenu

Photo

Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


57139 réponses à ce sujet

#826
omgBAMF

omgBAMF
  • Members
  • 392 messages

Kloborgg711 wrote...

omgBAMF wrote...
@kloborgg I would also add that EA would love to see a jump in used game sales.  That would mean MORE online passes to be sold, which equals more money for investers.  Also, there was that tweet about "holding on to your ME3 copy".

Again, that tweet means next to nothing, and I still won't buy that any company would think such an outrageous lie could be a good idea. You're implying that EA wants people to sell used copies by witholding information about the real ending? What a despicable idea. I don't think you truly believe this either.

Oh no, I'm not implying that this is/was EA's idea or intention, but they won't complain when ppl rush back to but used coppies and have to shell out more money for a pass.  Nor do I think it was part of their initial business strategy.

One thing is true though, if this is the case... then its one hell of a ballsy move by a game dev and publisher.  What I dont believe is that they would have it end like this since ME is a giant franchise.  They still want people to buy the ME gear (clothes, bags, trinkets, etc.) and nobody will if the last thing they have to see is this crap ending.

Thanks for your level-headedness, though.  Its certainly a thought-anchor needed here.

#827
Kloborgg711

Kloborgg711
  • Members
  • 833 messages

Kitten Tactics wrote...

Kloborgg711 wrote...

It's clear many people here honestly believe this is the case, it's not like people are RPing here. I'm sorry if I'm shattering your fantasy here, but I'm having a conversation about reality.

From the bottom of my heart, thank you for your comments, truly.  I got a *bit* too wrapped up in it.  Although it makes a lot of sense in certain areas, I sort of need to get back to realizing that they just messed up.  I want it to be something it's probably not.

And if it is, awesome!  But I am getting too excited for something it's not.  I still never saw Shepard stand up to the Catalyst or the Reapers.  I still never got my closure.  Bioware still screwed me.


Thank you, though I also apologize because I know it's not a very nice sort realization. I honestly didn't come here to hurt anyone, I just offered my perspective on this discussion. I think the most effective thing to do in this scenario is focus on accepting that Bioware screwed up, and get them to know that we're not happy about it. Our best chance, from what I can see, is still to make as loud a voice as we can and get our Shepard's the finale they deserve.

#828
Ghrelt

Ghrelt
  • Members
  • 413 messages
New theory on why they released a false ending: we in North America got the game on tuesday. Europe got it on friday. Now say they put a really cool and unexpected twist in the game. There's a very real chance many European gamers could get spoiled. This way, everyone gets the ending at the same time. And the people who haven't had as long with the game actually have the advantage of being horrified by the ending for a shorter period of time.

#829
lavosslayer

lavosslayer
  • Members
  • 294 messages

Kloborgg711 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Again, I don't think someone who didn't play the first two would be nearly as outraged by the ending or have the yearning for more DLC
I got rid of New Vegas before three DLCs came out, and at least one of them was a subplot cut from the main game, I dealt with it.


A subplot is not a "real ending to substitute the fake one we gave you". What about someone who did play the first two, and loved them, but doesn't participate on these forums? Someone who simply believed Bioware made a gigantic creative mistake, and sold their game because they honestly believed that was it. Maybe they're in a bad money situation, and every little bit counts. Believe me, if Bioware does try something like this, there will be lawsuits.


I understand your distraught just like most of us about the whole ending issue being what it is but seriously...lawsuits? on what grounds? false advertisement? how can they prove that? its not like the game in all intents and purposes wasn't complete...it just wasn't complete to the liking of the player...which is where the choice to purchase the DLC comes in and its perfectly legal...

#830
humes spork

humes spork
  • Members
  • 3 338 messages

Daedrus_0837 wrote...

Please elaborate. I always kill Kaiden in ME1 because i'm apparently p*-whipped by sexy pixels.


If you talk to Kaiden in front of the "mass relay monument" (read, the Conduit) he complains about hearing a hum. And his teeth tingling, or something similar. He whines about some weirdo phenomenon he only senses in front of and emanating from the "monument" is the point. And, being a biotic, well...

#831
DadeLeviathan

DadeLeviathan
  • Members
  • 678 messages
 To be quite honest, this surprisingly makes sense. The citadel blew up in the endings, so the breathing scene with Shepard after the destroy ending should be impossible. Even if he were able to survive an explosion, he's in space, with destroyed armor. He would be killed almost instantly because of the vacuum. As such, the only possible explanation for the breathing scene is that Shepard is still on earth.

#832
Ghrelt

Ghrelt
  • Members
  • 413 messages
I'd consider sending Bioware a bill for therapy, but lawsuit? No. (Not me personally, anyway.)

#833
FugitiveMind

FugitiveMind
  • Members
  • 167 messages

Ellythe wrote...

New theory on why they released a false ending: we in North America got the game on tuesday. Europe got it on friday. Now say they put a really cool and unexpected twist in the game. There's a very real chance many European gamers could get spoiled. This way, everyone gets the ending at the same time. And the people who haven't had as long with the game actually have the advantage of being horrified by the ending for a shorter period of time.


This also makes sense in a very twisted way...

#834
MPSai

MPSai
  • Members
  • 1 366 messages

Ellythe wrote...

New theory on why they released a false ending: we in North America got the game on tuesday. Europe got it on friday. Now say they put a really cool and unexpected twist in the game. There's a very real chance many European gamers could get spoiled. This way, everyone gets the ending at the same time. And the people who haven't had as long with the game actually have the advantage of being horrified by the ending for a shorter period of time.


Doubt they put that much thought into it really. 

#835
Sajuro

Sajuro
  • Members
  • 6 871 messages

Kloborgg711 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Again, I don't think someone who didn't play the first two would be nearly as outraged by the ending or have the yearning for more DLC
I got rid of New Vegas before three DLCs came out, and at least one of them was a subplot cut from the main game, I dealt with it.


A subplot is not a "real ending to substitute the fake one we gave you". What about someone who did play the first two, and loved them, but doesn't participate on these forums? Someone who simply believed Bioware made a gigantic creative mistake, and sold their game because they honestly believed that was it. Maybe they're in a bad money situation, and every little bit counts. Believe me, if Bioware does try something like this, there will be lawsuits.

I will sympathize with them if that's the case, but if they are in a bad enough money situation they could have just waited until it is used. I know that might sound callus but I don't have much disposable income and I buy all of my games, or nearly all, used. The only recent exceptions were Kingdom Hearts Re:coded(target gift card) and Mass Effect 3 (trade ins from used games and a little bit of my own money because I was so excited). I got in money trouble before because I bought a lot of games, and I know it is my fault, but I still will replay Mass Effect 3 and if they come out with a new ending, yay.
They can sue Bioware, but I don't know how far they will go. And like Kitten said, thank you for being the Devil's advocate so to speak.

#836
byne

byne
  • Members
  • 7 811 messages

Kloborgg711 wrote...

Kitten Tactics wrote...

Kloborgg711 wrote...

It's clear many people here honestly believe this is the case, it's not like people are RPing here. I'm sorry if I'm shattering your fantasy here, but I'm having a conversation about reality.

From the bottom of my heart, thank you for your comments, truly.  I got a *bit* too wrapped up in it.  Although it makes a lot of sense in certain areas, I sort of need to get back to realizing that they just messed up.  I want it to be something it's probably not.

And if it is, awesome!  But I am getting too excited for something it's not.  I still never saw Shepard stand up to the Catalyst or the Reapers.  I still never got my closure.  Bioware still screwed me.


Thank you, though I also apologize because I know it's not a very nice sort realization. I honestly didn't come here to hurt anyone, I just offered my perspective on this discussion. I think the most effective thing to do in this scenario is focus on accepting that Bioware screwed up, and get them to know that we're not happy about it. Our best chance, from what I can see, is still to make as loud a voice as we can and get our Shepard's the finale they deserve.


We do need someone like you in this thread, lest we all become absorbed in just confirming our own ideas and handing out self-congratulations on how smart we all are.

We've got to have critical people to at least force us to consider things from every side.

#837
Hanabii

Hanabii
  • Members
  • 365 messages
I am of the Hallucination theory you may have seen gabbed on about in other threads.

The whole game Commander Shepard was getting more and more stressed, as time went on she became less and less 'human'. In a way.

When you first get onto the Citadel it feels like a dream. You're crawling through a hallway of your own dead. Mysteriously faced with the Illusive man with no hint at how he got there. When he commands you, you put a bullet in Anderson and are using all your might to resist.

The bodies are like the phantoms in her dreams that she'd been having. They didn't seem real. Her mental state is weakened by blood loss, consistent exposure to indoctrination. They might not have even been real.

Let's use other examples of other people who'd felt it.

Saren said Indoctrination was subtle and crafty. The Illusive Man didn't even know he was indoctrinated unless you Paragon'd the HELL out of him. Rana Thanoptist (Get out of here before I blow up Vermire Girl.) who had a weak mind committed suicide after even her relatively small exposure compared to Shepard. Shialla (Green Girl) was only freed from it by the effects of the Thorien and was Mindlinked to the Feros Collenists who made a suprising effective force. I believe Shialla's mind-link allowed other's minds to stabilize and counter re-indoctrination, that and the exposure to the Thorian's mind.

Shepard in the dream chases the kid, a dream that started as Post Traumatic Stress from watching a kid die, a cross of guilt to bare. But as the game went on Shepard kept being exposed to the Reapers more and more and more, destroying them, getting close. Others even with no reapers around were getting taken over and killing each other.

In the dark dream Shepard is warned, as she runs chasing the phantom she sees herself hugging the child, smiling creepily as they both burn, a forewarning of what lies ahead. That the reapers are riding on an image of her guilt as 'The Catalyst' of her indoctrination.

"Good Endings." -
Finally Shepard stands at the end face to face with her nightmarish guilt. Having made it so far only through the will to beat the reapers. She is offered three choices by the Catalyst.

One is to Control the Reapers, to become them. However as I was hinted, she is indoctrinated herself in the final throws. This destroys the Mass Relays and causes the reapers to withdraw.

Second is the Biomerge of Technology using her as the Palate. Everyone in the universe is made into a Cyborg. Including Synthetics who are Augmented with organic. The Reapers Withdraw.

The Last is to carry on strong, We win or we die! You destroy the reapers once and for all. However the cost will be the death of the Geth (Who would willingly make the sacrifice to save organics if you persuaded them.) and EDI (Who was always ready to die to help Shepard.)

The Catch 22.
I theorize the Catalyst ISN'T what it seems. It the Catalyst of Shepard's Indoctrination. That in each ending Shepard does not die a true death.

Ending 1 and 2, Shepard's mind is overthrown, Shepard is indoctrinated and is now controlled, Shepard thinks (S)he is dead. Now a tool of the reapers who is still alive. The Mass Relays are gone, but the reapers are infinitely patient and truly unknowable.

The Illusive Man's path of control means Shepard didn't stop the reapers and now the universe is stuck without the Mass Relays and the reapers are infinitely patient.

The Biomerge Path, means all life has been given the ideal form for indoctrination of all. Shepard's indoctrinated energy is in all life, organic or not. And the reapers are a part of everyone now. Allowing them to begin a mass indoctrination beyond scale.

The Destruction Path, Shepard destroys the reapers. Overcoming the indoctrination. Waking up amidst the rubble on earth. (Shep is a sturdy SOB to take so much damage.) The Indoctrination attempt failed Shepard's conviction held through to the end and even in an unstable condition Shepard was able to hold to "We fight or we die."

Both other endings Shepard stops fighting and sees Her/Himself die. Stop fighting and die.
However is Shepard dead? Or is Shepard walking indoctrinated while the true ending is under design?

"The Bad Ending" -
Shepard quickly before everyone is ready, before the Crucible is perfected rushes to fight the reapers. The Crucible is incapable of the Technomerge and Outright Indoctrinating Shepard isn't an option.

With some Resistance left (Due to shorter exposure time) Shepard destroys the reapers, the unfinished Crucible destroys the planet, the reapers, everyone on earth and Shepard. Shepard never gave into the Indoctrination and was too strong at the time to ever do so. Too much resistance left.

---
The Joker Vision

A final glimpse at what is going on, Joker crashing down somewhere. Is it a vision to placate Shepard? Is Joker lost and stranded with a need to be picked up?

The Reapers died, but so did the earth.

---

The Possible Future.
"Can you tell me another story about the Shepherd?"

At some point Shepard is required, if (s)he is indoctrinated (Blue/Green) Ending. She awakens to learn the reapers are still out there. That doom is still upon them. And that through the sacrifices of others His/Her indoctrination was broken.

If Shepard destroyed the Reapers, Shepard awakens. Having destroyed the Reapers and fought off the Indoctrination. The Reaper Tech is gone. However Shepard is alive. (Shepard is very largely Cyborg, grey muscles, wires, AKA Lazarus Project Cyborg.) Meaning that the Geth also possibly survived.

The new Mission Either way involves coping with the change to the universe. Tracking down the lost. Picking up the peaces and building a new path.

"I need to find my people.", "I need to know that (Love Interest) is okay." At your side you have your people. "I need to get the Quarian's Home." "Wrex's Family needs him." "The Asari need to return to Thessia."

"We are all together now, our enemy is gone, but we are stranded away from home. We need to rebuild, but we, all the people of this Galaxy, stand together to rebuild. We will do on our own what we always have. We will forge our own path."

#838
mupp3tz

mupp3tz
  • Members
  • 2 469 messages
The weird "hum" Kaidan hears might be related to his L2 implants that causes neurological damage to the user. This was mentioned in the beginning of ME1 during his first few conversations and also in talking with Chakwas.

#839
lookingglassmind

lookingglassmind
  • Members
  • 420 messages
^^ Kloborgg: We are grateful for your voice. Don't be put off, please. :)

#840
krystalevenstar

krystalevenstar
  • Members
  • 319 messages
Honestly though, initially this might have just been us all being in denial and trying to cope, but there's too much evidence now to the contrary. Something is amiss. Bioware is pulling a ballsy PR stunt that will forever mark this game as unique in it's execution. Whether you love it or you hate it when it's all over, you'll never forget it (I believe someone else mentioned this too)

On another, more wistful thinking note, that 'wanting to keep the game, well, forever...' tweet would be fantastic if it hinted that the ME team is just going to keep supporting the story for the foreseeable future with DLC. As Shepard sees how the galaxy has changed and help recover different civilizations from the Reaper aftermath. I did notice that there was no 'The End' or anything similar in the credits. XD

#841
Sajuro

Sajuro
  • Members
  • 6 871 messages

Ellythe wrote...

New theory on why they released a false ending: we in North America got the game on tuesday. Europe got it on friday. Now say they put a really cool and unexpected twist in the game. There's a very real chance many European gamers could get spoiled. This way, everyone gets the ending at the same time. And the people who haven't had as long with the game actually have the advantage of being horrified by the ending for a shorter period of time.

I heard that Japan gets it the 15th, so maybe thats when they will release it.

#842
AvianCat

AvianCat
  • Members
  • 26 messages

MPSai wrote...

Kitten Tactics wrote...

Kloborgg711 wrote...

It's clear many people here honestly believe this is the case, it's not like people are RPing here. I'm sorry if I'm shattering your fantasy here, but I'm having a conversation about reality.

From the bottom of my heart, thank you for your comments, truly.  I got a *bit* too wrapped up in it.  Although it makes a lot of sense in certain areas, I sort of need to get back to realizing that they just messed up.  I want it to be something it's probably not.

And if it is, awesome!  But I am getting too excited for something it's not.  I still never saw Shepard stand up to the Catalyst or the Reapers.  I still never got my closure.  Bioware still screwed me.


Yeah but a little willful fan amnesia never hurt anyone. 


Agreed.

And Kloborgg, I'm sorry if I'm being unrealistic, but
still your conversation about whether this is really happening or not is
incredibly off topic about whether the ending is a hallucination or
not. Some of your original comments may have reflected this better but
your later ones are not. In fact alot of us are off topic, so it would be nice if we could get back to the actual topic of the thread. And it is true Bioware screwed up BIG TIME.

Modifié par AvianCat, 11 mars 2012 - 02:59 .


#843
SandTrout

SandTrout
  • Members
  • 4 171 messages

Ellythe wrote...

New theory on why they released a false ending: we in North America got the game on tuesday. Europe got it on friday. Now say they put a really cool and unexpected twist in the game. There's a very real chance many European gamers could get spoiled. This way, everyone gets the ending at the same time. And the people who haven't had as long with the game actually have the advantage of being horrified by the ending for a shorter period of time.

I really, truely, hope to god that you are correct, and the paranoid side of my brain thought up a similar theory that this is a huge Troll by BioWare before the release the actual, proper, ending of the game.

#844
Kloborgg711

Kloborgg711
  • Members
  • 833 messages

lavosslayer wrote...

I understand your distraught just like most of us about the whole ending issue being what it is but seriously...lawsuits? on what grounds? false advertisement? how can they prove that? its not like the game in all intents and purposes wasn't complete...it just wasn't complete to the liking of the player...which is where the choice to purchase the DLC comes in and its perfectly legal...


I don't think it's such a far cry that some people would be outraged enough at having an obviously incomplete product that they'd pursue legal action. There's no doubt in my mind that such a thing would cause incredible controversy. I know the old saying is all publicity is good publicity.. but in this case they would really alienate a lot of people. The last thing they need is controversy after the whole day-1 DLC debacle.

#845
Odd Bet

Odd Bet
  • Members
  • 153 messages

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

The weird "hum" Kaidan hears might be related to his L2 implants that causes neurological damage to the user. This was mentioned in the beginning of ME1 during his first few conversations and also in talking with Chakwas.


He specifically relates it to the Conduit, though, indicating that he can somehow sense the latent mass effect technology.

#846
FugitiveMind

FugitiveMind
  • Members
  • 167 messages
We're not off topic, we're all incredibly meta...

Discussing our own hallucinations about the game's hallucinations

#847
Kloborgg711

Kloborgg711
  • Members
  • 833 messages

AvianCat wrote...


And Kloborgg, I'm sorry if I'm being unrealistic, but
still your conversation about whether this is really happening or not is
incredibly off topic about whether the ending is a hallucination or
not. Some of your original comments may have reflected this better but
your later ones are not. In fact alot of us are off topic, so it would be nice if we could get back to the actual topic of the thread. And it is true Bioware screwed up BIG TIME.


I don't see how what I said was in any way "off-topic". The topic asks if the ending was a hallucination or not. My stance is "probably not because it's unrealistic for these reasons...". 

#848
lookingglassmind

lookingglassmind
  • Members
  • 420 messages

FugitiveMind wrote...

We're not off topic, we're all incredibly meta...

Discussing our own hallucinations about the game's hallucinations


Hah hah! Counterpoint, and match. :D

#849
AvianCat

AvianCat
  • Members
  • 26 messages

Kloborgg711 wrote...

AvianCat wrote...


And Kloborgg, I'm sorry if I'm being unrealistic, but
still your conversation about whether this is really happening or not is
incredibly off topic about whether the ending is a hallucination or
not. Some of your original comments may have reflected this better but
your later ones are not. In fact alot of us are off topic, so it would be nice if we could get back to the actual topic of the thread. And it is true Bioware screwed up BIG TIME.


I don't see how what I said was in any way "off-topic". The topic asks if the ending was a hallucination or not. My stance is "probably not because it's unrealistic for these reasons...". 


I figured but now you are kind of bashing the thought of it being dlc or not. Not whether the ending is a hallucination.

#850
humes spork

humes spork
  • Members
  • 3 338 messages

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

The weird "hum" Kaidan hears might be related to his L2 implants that causes neurological damage to the user. This was mentioned in the beginning of ME1 during his first few conversations and also in talking with Chakwas.

That's the thing -- Kaiden mentions he only gets migraines, and no other side effects of L2 implantation which range up to and including schizophrenia. Chakwas confirms Kaiden's story. He only hears that hum in front of the relay monument, and he's the only person who picks up on it despite at least two other biotics in the party and potentially including Shepard, who's either an L2 like Kaiden or an L3 (the game never clarifies to the best of my knowledge).

Either way, the details about it are insignificant. The important part is that Kaiden complains about hearing humming, and at the time it seems out of place and random for him to say something like that. Turns out Kaiden's minor, blink-and-you-miss-it, oddly-placed complaints foreshadow something way bigger.

...and Vega does the same thing. A throwaway comment like that wouldn't be in the game unless it hinted at or foreshadowed something way more important. Otherwise, why even waste the time putting it in the game?

Modifié par humes spork, 11 mars 2012 - 03:06 .