57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Reptilian Rob]

This is just getting ridiculous, someone at Bioware needs to say something.

It's either they are planning the greatest twist in gaming history, or they ****ed up something fierce.

[Thermorium]

anarch1888 wrote...

Well, from all that I gathered from the course of the previous 2 games:
Each Reaper is a unique being. Just remember the "human" Reaper that the Collectors were building and Sovereign saying "We are <...> each a nation" at the krogan facility in ME1. So, basically, each Reaper represents a former species that was harvested during previous "harvests".

Considering the unique attributes of each of the species it's plausible to infer that each Reaper has:

1) varying limits to their power. Compare Sovereign and Harbinger, for example. The difference is quite obvious (Harbinger being able to control thousands just on a whim). So, theoretically, a Reaper made from asari should kick the living **** out of a salarian Reaper when it comes to mind control.

2) varying nature of that power. For example, the distance at which victims can be controlled, the nature of the bonding between the slave and the master (one-way or both), etc.

Personally, I think that Harbinger could be a Prothean Reaper since mind-linking for Protheans comes just as natural as breathing as explained by your Prothean squadmate. That would actually open up new venues for many things, this theory included.

Just some food for thought (hopefully useful).
Sorry, if someone else already mentioned this - scanning through 340+ pages is a bit too much for me.

But hasn´t this been addressed in ME2, were it was said that the protheans weren´t suitable to be made into a Reaper, and were all indoctrinated in the end to make the Collectors?

[RobT2012]

Little Lummo wrote...

Lurchibald wrote...

so wait, how did the reapers move the citadel to Earth again? The citadel doesn't have any propulsion of its own, I don't know, I just can't see them being able to use the mass relay to move it (Though I'm not an expert on what the mass relays can actually do lol)

I thought that aswell, and what was the point of us even improving the Citadel Defense Force?! Whole lotta good that done lol, why couldn't they even seal the citadel when the Reapers approached it? Unless it was GC done something(in which case why didn't he take control in ME1). 

I also thought in ME1 that Vigil gave Shep some file to override the Citadels security systems to open the arms again, why wasn't that needed this time? 

The Citadel is a giant mass relay, the biggest in the galaxy, as its supposed to not connect systems, but reach out into dark space and haul the repears in. A Mass Effect Relay that powerful could jump itself around the system. Precedent for this is the Normandy herself, she generates a Mass Effect field around, that causes her to continuously fall into a gravity well providing her propulsion. Citadel could do this.

[iSpitfireee]

Once Shepard gets to the citadel, all the bodies have had their eyes ripped out and their heads shaved. Also they all have "plain" faces, kind of like doll faces. This may be dream evidence some how. Also how are there bodies on the chasm when there is a door? + You can hear a door open when Anderson says "I found a way out" but the sound is coming from on top of you.

Sorry for the overload of new info but im not done yet

When you are talking to TIM and Anderson you can hear the vibration sound in the back ground, then it hits Shepard. It seems like something in the room is creating that sound and making Shepard do that action, it might not be TIM?

Go here and go to 0:25 and stay focused on Shepards body. Notice that the tank explodes Shepard is no where to be found?

One last thing. go here watch from 0:43 - 0:45 and focus on the boy. When he disappears a more adult size aspiration makes an appearance for a brief second. Maybe if we use Shepard and the Boy as a template from the dream we can place the young boy as a Shepard when he was a young kid?

[JeffZero]

That pic was confirmed as early concept art for the Reaper IFF mission ages ago.

[Rheinlandman]

Deitylink wrote...

Again. The reversed 1M1 could just be a warning/sign. Everything is reversed. Destroy is seen as renegade and made to believe thats it's the wrong option.

I had thought that it was tied to the fiscal year (UK personal fiscal years starting on April 6th (PAX East Panel date)) but I am not sure if Canadians share the same date.  I am talking about non-gov't fiscal year, which would indeed start on April 1st, not 6th. (Canadians being part of the Commonwealth)

However if this does turn out to be the case, 1M1 denotes 1st Month 1st day of the fiscal year, April 6th the same date as a the Pax East Panel.

Of course this is purely speculation.

Modifié par Rheinlandman, 13 mars 2012 - 08:01 .

[JFedora]

Kayjin23 wrote...

Vlta wrote...

If this theory or the indoctrination proves true I doubt it would be because it was Bioware's plan all along. It would probably be more likely that they just used this idea to appease the masses and the three half baked endings really were their endings.

(If the theory really is their idea then after I get my real ending I'm done with Bioware, getting trolled is bad enough, being forced to purchase the real ending for a game is ridiculous)

These are my thoughts exactly. Why everyone is painting Bioware as heroes if this is actually true is beyond me. You're all really happy that they could've planned to troll us all along? I get the feeling everyone is just desperate enough to look for any escape to the terrible endings we got and so flocked to this.

I can't speak for everybody, but I don't see it as a troll - I see it as incredibly innovative storytelling. The whole point of mass effect has been to engage and involve the player in the story. Doing this is an really interesting way of putting the player into the game, by actually tricking US, rather than just tricking Shepard. On the one hand, whenever I leave this thread and look at some others (like ones talking about why the endings are perfectly fine as they are), I get a little depressed again, because this theory is really, really far-fetched. Even if Bioware planned to do this, why wouldn't they have the "real" endings on the disk AFTER this? That would have been really interesting - the game could end after you choose synthesis and control, and you wouldn't know the difference until other people starting talking about the REAL ending after you choose destroy with high EMS. There's no real reason why they would cut off an additional ending from the rest of the game.

But the alternative to this theory is believing that Bioware royally screwed up. Is it easier to believe that Bioware successfully produced an otherwise incredible game but left a ton of plot holes at the end, or that they're not quite done yet? I'm pretty sure we all know that this theory is a long shot at best, but until I'm told by bioware "shut your crazed whinings already, you're wrong", I'm going to hold out for more.

[njfluffy19]

luukee wrote...

anarch1888 wrote...

Well, from all that I gathered from the course of the previous 2 games:
Each Reaper is a unique being. Just remember the "human" Reaper that the Collectors were building and Sovereign saying "We are <...> each a nation" at the krogan facility in ME1. So, basically, each Reaper represents a former species that was harvested during previous "harvests".

Considering the unique attributes of each of the species it's plausible to infer that each Reaper has:

1) varying limits to their power. Compare Sovereign and Harbinger, for example. The difference is quite obvious (Harbinger being able to control thousands just on a whim). So, theoretically, a Reaper made from asari should kick the living **** out of a salarian Reaper when it comes to mind control.

2) varying nature of that power. For example, the distance at which victims can be controlled, the nature of the bonding between the slave and the master (one-way or both), etc.

Personally, I think that Harbinger could be a Prothean Reaper since mind-linking for Protheans comes just as natural as breathing as explained by your Prothean squadmate. That would actually open up new venues for many things, this theory included.

Just some food for thought (hopefully useful).
Sorry, if someone else already mentioned this - scanning through 340+ pages is a bit too much for me.

I've been thinking this for a while, especially more since we know what an actual prothean looks like.


If you compare these two pictures of Harbinger and a Prothean, you'll notice both have four eyes, both have that ridge like thing on the "head", and as far as I know Harbinger is also the only one to look like this.

I also think you're right about them wanting Shepard for the reaper base because s/he's the best example of humanity and their resitance agaisnt the Reapers, so why not turn that determination, power and attitude into a reaper?

It was stated in ME2 that it was inlikely the Reapers were able to make a Reaper of the Protheans. Remember on the Collector ship? They were performing tests on the Collectors against that of humanity to see if humans were a viable source to reproduce with. That was EDI's hypothesis, anyway.

Modifié par njfluffy19, 13 mars 2012 - 07:59 .

[Zulmoka531]

anarch1888 wrote...

Personally, I think that Harbinger could be a Prothean Reaper since mind-linking for Protheans comes just as natural as breathing as explained by your Prothean squadmate. That would actually open up new venues for many things, this theory included.

Unfortunetly, dialogue with EDI in ME2, right before the human reaper boss fight, claims that they tried to build a prothean reaper, but failed for some reason.

[Rammiecakes]

njfluffy19 wrote...

Rammiecakes wrote...

I would like to say a few things.. actually, about the voice actors and their responses to the game.

Martin Sheen said "I'm not done yet" This could be relative to the near ending/choices of ME3 where you decide the fate of the galaxy or it could be something else!

All other VAs have commented on how this game is phenomenal and will throw its players for a spin.
I think they themselves would have been in a tizzy if it truly ended the way it did. I know for a fact Jennifer Hale would have been pissed.

Brandon Keener said something along the lines of Garrus' story isn't done yet a year or so ago. That could always just be wishful thinking for Garrus.

Well Sheet, thar you go. I really only.. kinda follow Hale and Hillis, but Hillis is sort of mum on the whole thing (Bioware, y u no show Hillis in many interviews?)

[Saile]

Leafs43 wrote...

VironZ wrote...

The kid suggests that if you kill all synthetics, that you are also synthetic, so therefore you will die if you chose that path, so he's obviously upto something

I hadn't even thought about this....

Destroy is the only ending Shepherd survives when the kid clearly implies that if Shepherd chooses this option Shepherd will also die.

This is a big enough idea for its own thread.

If I'm not mistaken, the Star Kid says "you will become one with the machine" about the other two options, which is basically saying the same thing. But yeah- the biggest difference is that Shepard survives while the kid says he/she dies.

Modifié par Sailers, 13 mars 2012 - 08:00 .

[Little Lummo]

Somebody mentioned the Citadel is a mass relay which i forgot. Even though its highly unlikely... Any chance that as the beam fired or something, Shepard got shot to a different planet by the relay? Lol i'm just throwing any idea out there

[CptData]

Noob451 wrote...

also if the gun is shepards willpower, you'll notice destroying the reapers is the only one that involves shooting it, showing that shepard is breaking free from indoctrination?  wheras the other 2 choices you are simply submitting.

The gun may indeed be Shepard's fighting spirit.

Keep in mind: Control & Merge endings are solutions brought up by Shepard's foes: Merge is the option Saren would take, Control is the one for TIM. The third option is Shepard's very own decision and it looks as if it's the one with the worst consequences.

Right?

Funny thing: we only have that kid's word the Geth and EDI may die if you pick that option. But how can you be sure he's not lying? After all, it's quite obvious he wants to preserve the Reapers, either in a Control Ending or in the Merge Ending, so he presents them as the better alternatives while "Destruction" seems to be the one he fears most.

So if Shepard picks that Destruction Ending, it's the only one Shepard truly picks while the other two are "forced" on him by either Saren or TIM. Picking the Destruction Ending might also be the only way to keep Shepard's character intact and if s/he got indoctrinated, then s/he might be able to break the indoctrination that way.

The Normandy's fate happens only in Shepard's mind - all Shepard wants is to know his/her ship & crew is safe. In reality, the Normandy is still in Sol System.

[LillyRascal]

wrong thread and language ^^

Modifié par LillyRascal, 13 mars 2012 - 08:04 .

[Rheinlandman]

ignore post

Modifié par Rheinlandman, 13 mars 2012 - 08:01 .

[jackncoke28]

savionen wrote...

Noob451 wrote...

Elanor1 wrote...

Noob451 wrote...

jackncoke28 wrote...

Has the magic unlimited amo gun you get, after harbinger blast, been explained?

discussed and thought about, yes.

explained? no.

some think the gun = shepards willpower.

Another proof that it didn't really happened?

also if the gun is shepards willpower, you'll notice destroying the reapers is the only one that involves shooting it, showing that shepard is breaking free from indoctrination?  wheras the other 2 choices you are simply submitting.

You have infinite ammo at the beginning of the game as well. You don't actually "run out of ammo" until a certain spot, regardless of how much ammo you actually use.

There's many other games that have done this as well. It's a designer choice, so that the player doesn't break a game mechanic.

arent you forced to at least reload in the beginning of the game? plus you 2 shot kill a bullet sponge in that scene after the blast

[Zulmoka531]

Here you go, video link with the conversation (starts at roughly 1:20):

[Bigdoser]

Prince Keldar wrote...

G0thicRhino wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

Credits to Mr Gogeta34 for the post here is what he put down in another topic.

More fuel for the Hallucination/Indoctrination Theory fire:

Collector's tried to take Shepard's body under Harbinger in ME2. "Preserve Shepard's body if possible" is a line by Harbinger that proves that the Reapers wanted Shepard for a long time... and perhaps even anticipated that Shepard would be their final element necessary for victory.
"We are the beginning, you are the end."
"Why do you resists us, Shepard?"
"I am the Harbinger of your perfection."
"I am the Harbinger of your ascendance."
"You cannot escape your destiny, Shepard."

Naturally though, that didn't work out...
"You have failed... we will find another way..." - Harbinger (ME2)

In Arrival, Harbinger makes it clear (under no uncertain terms) that he wants Shepard's mind. Object Rho did render Shepard unconscious and apparently, prior to that, Harbinger was trying to indoctrinate Shepard... but his will had been too strong.

"Struggle if you wish... your mind will be mine" - Harbinger (Arrival)

Shepard could've very well been "infected" by Rho's final shockwave, and when he came to... indoctrination began seeping in (with the ME3 Kid being its very first real manifestation). However this too, ultimately failed in its intention.

"Shepard, you have become an annoyance. You fight against inevitability... dust struggling against cosmic winds." -Harbinger (Arrival


"Know this as you die in vain... your time will come. Your species will fall." -Harbinger
(kinda sounds like some of ME3's endings)


So Harbinger tries something more creative to Indoctrinate Shepard... one that he may have learned from The Illusive Man... appealing to his compassionate side via child and his own sense of morality (Paragon/Renegade).

Also note that the same Renegade choice (Destroy ending) can play out in 2 unique ways... Whereas one is the "best" ending (with Shepard surviving)... the other Renegade choice kills everyone and obliterates everything. Such unique endings from the same choice only furthers the likelyhood of illusion.

This is some really good investigative work. 

It is.  I guess I have always assumed Harbinger was talking about Humanity or organic life as a whole, but maybe he was talking directly to and about Shepard.  Interesting.

Indeed harbinger really wants shepard. 

[WE_Belisarius]

Prince Keldar wrote...

G0thicRhino wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

Credits to Mr Gogeta34 for the post here is what he put down in another topic.

More fuel for the Hallucination/Indoctrination Theory fire:

Collector's tried to take Shepard's body under Harbinger in ME2. "Preserve Shepard's body if possible" is a line by Harbinger that proves that the Reapers wanted Shepard for a long time... and perhaps even anticipated that Shepard would be their final element necessary for victory.
"We are the beginning, you are the end."
"Why do you resists us, Shepard?"
"I am the Harbinger of your perfection."
"I am the Harbinger of your ascendance."
"You cannot escape your destiny, Shepard."

Naturally though, that didn't work out...
"You have failed... we will find another way..." - Harbinger (ME2)

In Arrival, Harbinger makes it clear (under no uncertain terms) that he wants Shepard's mind. Object Rho did render Shepard unconscious and apparently, prior to that, Harbinger was trying to indoctrinate Shepard... but his will had been too strong.

"Struggle if you wish... your mind will be mine" - Harbinger (Arrival)

Shepard could've very well been "infected" by Rho's final shockwave, and when he came to... indoctrination began seeping in (with the ME3 Kid being its very first real manifestation). However this too, ultimately failed in its intention.

"Shepard, you have become an annoyance. You fight against inevitability... dust struggling against cosmic winds." -Harbinger (Arrival


"Know this as you die in vain... your time will come. Your species will fall." -Harbinger
(kinda sounds like some of ME3's endings)


So Harbinger tries something more creative to Indoctrinate Shepard... one that he may have learned from The Illusive Man... appealing to his compassionate side via child and his own sense of morality (Paragon/Renegade).

Also note that the same Renegade choice (Destroy ending) can play out in 2 unique ways... Whereas one is the "best" ending (with Shepard surviving)... the other Renegade choice kills everyone and obliterates everything. Such unique endings from the same choice only furthers the likelyhood of illusion.

This is some really good investigative work. 

It is.  I guess I have always assumed Harbinger was talking about Humanity or organic life as a whole, but maybe he was talking directly to and about Shepard.  Interesting.

And then, there is the prothean VI on Thessia...
Long term indoctrination theories collide with the Thessia plot.

[CptData]

LillyRascal wrote...

Hm..ich glaub die Indoktrinierungstheorie.. hatte gerade Gespräch mit Edi auf der Brücke.. und sie meinte, die Reaper haben den Erdregierungen Einladungen für Gespräche gesandt, Frieden ect.. da meinte Shepi selbst.. jeder der an Bord eines Reaper geht,wird indoktriniert.. ist mir vorher nie aufgefallen.. aber man kann doch sehr sehr viel ins Spiel hinein interprtieren.. richtig schöne Verschwörungstheorie..müsst mal bei den Amis gucken,die packen die wüstesten Vermutungen aus..

Maybe you should stick with English here ^^

And dunno if your theory works. It's interesting, but doesn't really play out in the ending.

[njfluffy19]

CptData wrote...

Noob451 wrote...

also if the gun is shepards willpower, you'll notice destroying the reapers is the only one that involves shooting it, showing that shepard is breaking free from indoctrination?  wheras the other 2 choices you are simply submitting.

The gun may indeed be Shepard's fighting spirit.

Keep in mind: Control & Merge endings are solutions brought up by Shepard's foes: Merge is the option Saren would take, Control is the one for TIM. The third option is Shepard's very own decision and it looks as if it's the one with the worst consequences.

Right?

Funny thing: we only have that kid's word the Geth and EDI may die if you pick that option. But how can you be sure he's not lying? After all, it's quite obvious he wants to preserve the Reapers, either in a Control Ending or in the Merge Ending, so he presents them as the better alternatives while "Destruction" seems to be the one he fears most.

So if Shepard picks that Destruction Ending, it's the only one Shepard truly picks while the other two are "forced" on him by either Saren or TIM. Picking the Destruction Ending might also be the only way to keep Shepard's character intact and if s/he got indoctrinated, then s/he might be able to break the indoctrination that way.

The Normandy's fate happens only in Shepard's mind - all Shepard wants is to know his/her ship & crew is safe. In reality, the Normandy is still in Sol System.

I have a question-- if you choose to sacrfice the Geth for the Quarians, does the dialogue at the end change at all? Why would you care if syntehtics are obliterated if you already killed them by your own volition?

[Schief724]

savionen wrote...

Noob451 wrote...

Elanor1 wrote...

Noob451 wrote...

jackncoke28 wrote...

Has the magic unlimited amo gun you get, after harbinger blast, been explained?

discussed and thought about, yes.

explained? no.

some think the gun = shepards willpower.

Another proof that it didn't really happened?

also if the gun is shepards willpower, you'll notice destroying the reapers is the only one that involves shooting it, showing that shepard is breaking free from indoctrination?  wheras the other 2 choices you are simply submitting.

You have infinite ammo at the beginning of the game as well. You don't actually "run out of ammo" until a certain spot, regardless of how much ammo you actually use.

There's many other games that have done this as well. It's a designer choice, so that the player doesn't break a game mechanic.

You might have infinite thermal clips, but not infinite ammo. In the beginning of the game you still have to eject thermal clips if you shoot all the rounds it can fire.

Now I don't think I fired the gun in the ending enough to test if it had to eject a thermal clip or not though.

Modifié par Schief724, 13 mars 2012 - 08:04 .

[RobT2012]

Descedent wrote...

Elanor1 wrote...

Noob451 wrote...

jackncoke28 wrote...

Has the magic unlimited amo gun you get, after harbinger blast, been explained?

discussed and thought about, yes.

explained? no.

some think the gun = shepards willpower.

Another proof that it didn't really happened?

no ui for the gun, so I just kept reloading it cause I was thinking small clips lol. Did not know it was unlimited.

Just a reminder, in the "reality of the game" guns do not use Ammo. Guns have replaceable heatsinks, as when the weapon overheats (as it did in ME1) the only option was to wait for it too cool down to use it again. In later games what we see as Ammo is really an indicator of how much heat has built up and therefore need to replace the heatsink. When ammo reachs zero weapon is too hot to fire again. So its not an inifinite ammo pistol as ammo is long removed in the game. Instead we do not see a counter as well its intended only to fure a few shots, so its not going to be used to the extent it is in missions where it would overheat and need heat sink replacing.

[MatthewGold]

iSpitfireee wrote...

Once Shepard gets to the citadel, all the bodies have had their eyes ripped out and their heads shaved. Also they all have "plain" faces, kind of like doll faces. This may be dream evidence some how. Also how are there bodies on the chasm when there is a door? + You can hear a door open when Anderson says "I found a way out" but the sound is coming from on top of you.

Sorry for the overload of new info but im not done yet

When you are talking to TIM and Anderson you can hear the vibration sound in the back ground, then it hits Shepard. It seems like something in the room is creating that sound and making Shepard do that action, it might not be TIM?

Go here and go to 0:25 and stay focused on Shepards body. Notice that the tank explodes Shepard is no where to be found?

One last thing. go here watch from 0:43 - 0:45 and focus on the boy. When he disappears a more adult size aspiration makes an appearance for a brief second. Maybe if we use Shepard and the Boy as a template from the dream we can place the young boy as a Shepard when he was a young kid?

FemShep wouldn't be a young boy, though. 

[Tsantilas]

Noob451 wrote...

luukee wrote...

I've been thinking this for a while, especially more since we know what an actual prothean looks like.

http://images3.wikia...er_278x449.jpg 

http://images1.wikia...ean_Profile.png

If you compare these two pictures of Harbinger and a Prothean, you'll notice both have four eyes, both have that ridge like thing on the "head", and as far as I know Harbinger is also the only one to look like this.

I also think you're right about them wanting Shepard for the reaper base because s/he's the best example of humanity and their resitance agaisnt the Reapers, so why not turn that determination, power and attitude into a reaper?

the protheans were also an empire of different races, according to javik.

The codex says that harbinger is believed to be the oldest and largest reaper, so... no?