57139 réponses à ce sujet

[balance5050]

Leafs43 wrote...

Tygur wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

 Ok, I have not managed to finish the game yet, but I have watched all the endings, and I think, or at least hope, that that makes me qualified to comment.

I was originally thinking about Anderson, and I wondered if he represented part of Shepard's mind in this context.  Think, for a moment, about what Anderson means to Shepard.  He was there through all three games, he was the man who originally brought Shepard abord the Normandy, and, perhaps most importantly, he was the only one who believed Shepard from the beginning.  His faith in Shepard never wavered.  So, maybe Anderson sort of plays the Horatio to Shepard's Hamlet, the only thing that keeps him anchored to sanitiy.  When Anderson dies in the "hallucination" (I only put it in quotes because Bioware has not said yea or nea to the idea) Shepard then goes to the Crucible.  At that point, it is likely that Shepard is at his weakest moment mentally.  Therefore, the Reapers now have their chance to try and take over.  Now, the destroy ending is the ending indicated by Anderson's image, right?  So, maybe that is Shepard's mind's way of saying, "This is what you should do".  Also, as pointed out by others, this is the ending indicated by the "kid" as having the worst consequences; Geth destroyed, EDI dead, Shepard possibly dead as well.  It would seem likely that the "kid" is trying to get Shepard not to take this option because the part of Shep's mind represented by Anderson, possibly the only person who has never faltered in his belief in Shepard and who Shepard has never faltered in his belief in, is telling him this is the right move.  Sorry if this got a little long winded, but I figured it was worth pointing out.  Any thoughts fellow BSN members? 

No, that seems right. The first time I got to the end and was presented with the choices, I literally said to myself "I'm going to pick destroy, because thats what Anderson wanted, and he was always there and always right and good.

How does Shepherd survive the destroy option with all his synthetic implants?

Sighh... dude... it all happened in his head, the rammification of the choices don't happen because those choices don't exist, the only choice is fight or die.

[panamakira]

Little Lummo wrote...

panamakira wrote...

Milvushina wrote...

panamakira wrote...

Did the "perfect ending" had your teammates dead in front of you when you wake up from the blast?

I has 4700+ EMS and 71% readiness....and I saw the bodies of Kaidan and Garrus before me. Anyone know?

Did you get the "perfect ending"?

I thought you had to have a very low EMS to see the dead squadmates, and a very high EMS to see the perfect ending.

Was Kaidan your LI?  If so was he still on the jungle planet even though you saw his body?

I had assumed I had enough for a perfect ending. Yes, Kaidan was LI and to be honest I couldn't recognize the body of Garrus anywhere but assumed that the body in front of Kaidan was Garrus but I couldn't really tell. Kaidan was dead in front of me when I woke up, a pool of blood under him. This was the only really "negative" aspect I got in the ending, all the other scenes with the soldiers cheering, didn't see anyone else die. Shep lived in my Destroy ending.

And yeah Kaidan comes out like he just had a shower and a shave out of the Normandy in the jungle, followed by the missing Garrus. That's just weird. I could understand your squadmates "maybe" appearing on the Normandy if you didn't see their bodies but Kaidan was pretty dead when I woke up from the beam blast.

Are you definitely sure it was Kaidan? Not somebody who looked similar? Was it anybody in this clip 

No I'm 100% sure it was Kaidan. He had the blue armor that's distinguishable in your avatar. He was in the same position as the London officer that's shown in the video @0:52 looking equally dead. But everything else in my ending matches with people's perfect ending except Kaidan's corpse being there. 

Modifié par panamakira, 13 mars 2012 - 08:51 .

[JeffZero]

Thank you, hex.

[kent80082006]

Seriously if the indoctrination theory is not true to some extent I really can't think of other reasons why the star child says "wake up" instead of "why are you here" if you have different EMS, "wake up" can apply to both cases, why change it if it's not of some significance?

[Rip504]

Leafs43 wrote...


Or the control or synthesize options, which both lean heavily into becoming part of the machine, are actually the indoctrination options.  

Destroy is Shepherd breaking free of the indoctrination attempt. As it makes sense because star child says you will die if you choose the destroy option but you obviously survive if you have enough EMS.

You have to remember, if its all hallucination, it all plays out in Sheperd's mind.

We are talking about destroy,In one Shep armor hits the ground(High EMS). In the other Shepard armor does not (low EMS)

So???? He is indoctrinated and doesn't picture hiself surviving unless I get a high number?
Or could your Happy/good ending be you seeing the armor and pretending...
So if I have a low EMS and Shep does not see the N7 armor,what I never woke up from indoctrination? Reapers win after 5 years and 3 games? Really?

[BlackDragonBane]

RobT2012 wrote...

anarch1888 wrote...

RobT2012 wrote...

the collector general was sat in a base built of reaper tech, that was actually building a human reaper. So the collector general really couldnt any closer than that to a reaper indoctrination field. I dont think it points to a greater mind bending power that harbinger has over all other reapers. Its still a local effect. Harby just uses a quantum entangler to end his thoughts to the collector base, and the local idoc field does the rest,

Well, even if he did do it through the QED, there's still the difference in sheer numbers that Harbinger and Sovereign controlled. The Geth in ME1 were there on their own free will if I remember it correctly.

-Draikin- wrote...

I'm surprised at how many people are clinging to this theory for hope that the endings weren't the real deal. Can I just ask this to the people who believe this theory: am I correct when I say you believe that in a week or so Bioware is actually going to come out and say "hey guys, it was all just a dream, here's the real ending for free"?

Dunno. I'm here just for the kicks of speculation.

The Geth prior to ME3 do not really have a conscious mind to control. Their programs operate on consensus getting progressively smarter the larger the geth platform becomes, as each program ads to the total processing power as a whole. They wanted a super structure to house all programs to reach their own perfection. ME1 Geth split from the main hive as they were promised a reaper construct to achieve this, they were not indoctrinated at all, they were bribed. The Geth do ascend to true conscious AI status en masse untill the events of ME3. In ME3 the geth working for the reapers, are still not actually indoctrinated, they were being attacked by Quarians, had their own super vessel destroyed and partnered with the repears willingly. The reaper code increased their processing power, to allow to them to function better, it does not say this is indoctrination.

Also doesn't say it isn't indoctrination, but in a different manner.

In ME2, I believe that Legion explains the difference between the Geth and the Heretics comes down to a difference in coding. Sovereign was found in the Perseus Veil, which the Geth called home and we all know the Reapers emit a signal that cause the indoctrination in organics, which slowly changes and breaks down the mind.

What's not to say that being organic and machine, the Reaper indoctrination signal carries an underlying transmisisoin that is capable of hacking AIs and implanting a virus that slowly modifies their coding just like indoctrination changes an organic's mind?

Granted I really have nothing to really support this thought aside from Legion's short dialogue in ME2, but I'm just throwing it out there.

[Leafs43]

Rip504 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...


Or the control or synthesize options, which both lean heavily into becoming part of the machine, are actually the indoctrination options.  

Destroy is Shepherd breaking free of the indoctrination attempt. As it makes sense because star child says you will die if you choose the destroy option but you obviously survive if you have enough EMS.

You have to remember, if its all hallucination, it all plays out in Sheperd's mind.

We are talking about destroy,In one Shep armor hits the ground(High EMS). In the other Shepard armor does not (low EMS)

So???? He is indoctrinated and doesn't picture hiself surviving unless I get a high number?
Or could your Happy/good ending be you seeing the armor and pretending...
So if I have a low EMS and Shep does not see the N7 armor,what I never woke up from indoctrination? Reapers win after 5 years and 3 games? Really?

Maybe you didn't have enough resources for an extraction because the Reapers were able to overwhelm the forces due to low EMS.

[Reptilian Rob]

JeffZero wrote...

Here's another one: why does Shepard still bother dreaming up the Normandy crash after resisting indoctrination and choosing Destroy?

Also, why is that Stargazer scene always there?

Why does the congratulatory message (truly the closest thing to Word of God in the game) tell you the Reapers were defeated regardless of your choice?

Listen, there people here are just trying to find an "out" to the horrible endings we got from Bioware. Look at how much thought and preocess has been put into this theory, three hundred plus pages worth. Do any of you REALLY think the same company who made Dragon Age 2 and TORtanic could pull off a twist of for the ages like this?

Dream on.

[kyrieee]

kent80082006 wrote...

Seriously if the indoctrination theory is not true to some extent I really can't think of other reasons why the star child says "wake up" instead of "why are you here" if you have different EMS, "wake up" can apply to both cases, why change it if it's not of some significance?

Why would he want you to wake up though?

[UrdnotGrunty2]

So I guess nobody got what I said that if they do make a DLC for this the right option (meaning break indoctrination) will be none of the three the reaper gives you. I will re-copy and paste what I said below

If they added a free indoctrination DLC that comes after the game is released in every continent then I guess you should be given a fourth choice which ignores all three of the choices and Shepard calls out the kid on his crap. Meaning of the three original choices, none of them are right.

Would remind me of Ender's Game when he was playing the Fantasy Game with the Giant, no matter what cup he drank from he died, there was no right option, no way to win. So instead of picking an option the giant (the reaper in ME3's case) was giving him, he simply ignored the options and did the unexpected winning the Fantasy Game (which wasn't meant to be won).

So I think if a DLC is added it will give a fourth option which leads to the DLC content and the 'good endings' where the other three presented by the reaper all lead to defeat. No way to win it but to deny the Reaper's options which all lead to indoctrination

[Elendstourist]

It must be such a joy for the BioWare guys to follow this thread, seeing us discussing our butts off. It is like we are some sort of ant colony.

[JeffZero]

So ME3 ends for approximately a quarter of the player base that even beats the game with Shepard resisting indoctrination.

Uh, congratulations. If it winds up true this is possibly even worse. One choice is correct and there truly, unequivocally, inarguably is no closure whatsoever.

[BeardedPuma]

wryan2011 wrote...

wryan2011 wrote...

seitani wrote...

De1ta G wrote...

wryan2011 wrote...

 With this forum moving so fast it's hard to tell if this has been said before, but I noticed that when the Illusive Man makes you shoot Anderson on the citadel(the first time, not the shot that kills him instantely) Shepherd shoots Anderson in the lower right abdomen.  Then just after Anderson dies(if you get the 'I'm proud of you' talk) Shepherd is holding his right abdomen which is bleeding badly.(no evidence as to why that specific spot)  

What I'm getting at is the symbolism of Shepherd shooting 'himself', or part of himself is pretty strong.  This ties in with the theory that Anderson is Shepherd's human side and the Ilussive Man represents his cybernetic side.  

Now that I think about it, I think your right. Shepard wasn't bleeding there before he shot Anderson. Nice observation.

shepard was shot  just before he entered in the beam

I may be wrong, but I could sware he was shot in the shoulder and not the abdomen before entering the beam.  I need to see if I can find this on youtube. 

yep, he gets shot in the shoulder not the abdomen.    check at about 1:50

It it most likely his shoulder,  but even if not it's also the opposite side from where he bleeds and holds his hand later. So he is bleeding from where he shot Anderson. 

[Madkipz]

Further proof that TIM and Anderson are just projections of your mind. Hinging on memories you have from your encounters with them and previous information you have acquired / associate with the two.

When you shoot Anderson in the gut, there's no blood anywhere, except when you are done chatting with Anderson, you are bleeding from the gut.

TIM's gun is the exact same type as yours.

[Rip504]

Wow LoL so low EMS,one that saves Earth and all crew members,but kills me and lets the Reapers win.
LoL this is what you are saying to me?

[Little Lummo]

panamakira wrote...

Little Lummo wrote...

panamakira wrote...

Milvushina wrote...

panamakira wrote...

Did the "perfect ending" had your teammates dead in front of you when you wake up from the blast?

I has 4700+ EMS and 71% readiness....and I saw the bodies of Kaidan and Garrus before me. Anyone know?

Did you get the "perfect ending"?

I thought you had to have a very low EMS to see the dead squadmates, and a very high EMS to see the perfect ending.

Was Kaidan your LI?  If so was he still on the jungle planet even though you saw his body?

I had assumed I had enough for a perfect ending. Yes, Kaidan was LI and to be honest I couldn't recognize the body of Garrus anywhere but assumed that the body in front of Kaidan was Garrus but I couldn't really tell. Kaidan was dead in front of me when I woke up, a pool of blood under him. This was the only really "negative" aspect I got in the ending, all the other scenes with the soldiers cheering, didn't see anyone else die. Shep lived in my Destroy ending.

And yeah Kaidan comes out like he just had a shower and a shave out of the Normandy in the jungle, followed by the missing Garrus. That's just weird. I could understand your squadmates "maybe" appearing on the Normandy if you didn't see their bodies but Kaidan was pretty dead when I woke up from the beam blast.

Are you definitely sure it was Kaidan? Not somebody who looked similar? Was it anybody in this clip 

No I'm 100% sure it was Kaidan. He had the blue armor that's distinguishable in your avatar. He was in the same position as the London officer that's shown in the video @0:52 looking equally dead. But everything else in my ending matches with people's perfect ending except Kaidan's corpse being there. 

That's strange, i remember seeing all them dead bodies in the clip, but no Kaidan/James (i specifically looked because i was worried they had died)

[balance5050]

JeffZero wrote...

Here's another one: why does Shepard still bother dreaming up the Normandy crash after resisting indoctrination and choosing Destroy?

Also, why is that Stargazer scene always there?

Why does the congratulatory message (truly the closest thing to Word of God in the game) tell you the Reapers were defeated regardless of your choice?

He does see that... but then he wakes up, he was/ still pretty close to death.

[JeffZero]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Here's another one: why does Shepard still bother dreaming up the Normandy crash after resisting indoctrination and choosing Destroy?

Also, why is that Stargazer scene always there?

Why does the congratulatory message (truly the closest thing to Word of God in the game) tell you the Reapers were defeated regardless of your choice?

Listen, there people here are just trying to find an "out" to the horrible endings we got from Bioware. Look at how much thought and preocess has been put into this theory, three hundred plus pages worth. Do any of you REALLY think the same company who made Dragon Age 2 and TORtanic could pull off a twist of for the ages like this?

Dream on.

Yeah, this is why I'm still not inclined to believe it, lol.

[savionen]

BeardedPuma wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

Revan87 wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

I don't think there's some devious plan to sell a "true" ending as DLC or that the end is a dream. I think it's just lousy writing. I think they had no idea how the series was going to end until it was time to write ME3 and this is what they came up with.

You don't start to write a series if you don't know how to end it!

It happens all the time. Ever watch Lost? They had a 7-season build up to a nonsensical ending that was even worse than ME3's.

If ME3's ending doesn't end up being indoctrination theory and we have to take it as is.
Then I think it is a much worse ending than Lost's miserable one. 

Lost's ending was also much more logical/relevant to the series. The entire show was about mystery. The last 10 minutes of Mass Effect seeminly come out of nowhere. There is no foreshadowing to God-Kid.

[Reptilian Rob]

BIG flaw in the logic of this thread.

So, only one ending is the correct one? Only one ending, that maybe only 35% of the player-base will actually attain is the continuing point?

LOL no.

[DvkZ2]

It still bugs me that the ghost child's clothes look EXACTLY as the one on earth.... and since shepard is the only one who has seen that child on earth.. well...

[Sl4sh3r]

Bigdoser wrote...

Credits to Mr Gogeta34 for the post here is what he put down in another topic.
Reposting in case people missed it

More fuel for the Hallucination/Indoctrination Theory fire:

Collector's tried to take Shepard's body under Harbinger in ME2. "Preserve Shepard's body if possible" is a line by Harbinger that proves that the Reapers wanted Shepard for a long time... and perhaps even anticipated that Shepard would be their final element necessary for victory.
"We are the beginning, you are the end."
"Why do you resists us, Shepard?"
"I am the Harbinger of your perfection."
"I am the Harbinger of your ascendance."
"You cannot escape your destiny, Shepard."

Naturally though, that didn't work out...
"You have failed... we will find another way..." - Harbinger (ME2)

In Arrival, Harbinger makes it clear (under no uncertain terms) that he wants Shepard's mind. Object Rho did render Shepard unconscious and apparently, prior to that, Harbinger was trying to indoctrinate Shepard... but his will had been too strong.

"Struggle if you wish... your mind will be mine" - Harbinger (Arrival)

Shepard could've very well been "infected" by Rho's final shockwave, and when he came to... indoctrination began seeping in (with the ME3 Kid being its very first real manifestation). However this too, ultimately failed in its intention.

"Shepard, you have become an annoyance. You fight against inevitability... dust struggling against cosmic winds." -Harbinger (Arrival


"Know this as you die in vain... your time will come. Your species will fall." -Harbinger
(kinda sounds like some of ME3's endings)


So Harbinger tries something more creative to Indoctrinate Shepard... one that he may have learned from The Illusive Man... appealing to his compassionate side via child and his own sense of morality (Paragon/Renegade).

Also note that the same Renegade choice (Destroy ending) can play out in 2 unique ways... Whereas one is the "best" ending (with Shepard surviving)... the other Renegade choice kills everyone and obliterates everything. Such unique endings from the same choice only furthers the likelyhood of illusion.

It's crazy how all of this fits perfectly into this Theory.

I know a lot of people are still skeptical but it really does seem like this is what BW was going for.

[cerberus1701]

draken-heart wrote...

perhaps everything we are seeing in the endings and all, is actually Bioware big wigs (if they still have any that aren't working under the EA banner) trying to get back at EA for forcing them to rush DA2, ruining one of the greatest franchises they made.

DA2 was rushed, no doubt. But it didn't ruin the franchise for the simple fact that the franchise is still moving forward. They have a chance to correct the errors,

So, when it's all over you'll probably be able to call 2 the weakest entry, but it's unfair at this point to say that it "ruined" DA.

[Dwailing]

JeffZero wrote...

Here's another one: why does Shepard still bother dreaming up the Normandy crash after resisting indoctrination and choosing Destroy?

Also, why is that Stargazer scene always there?

Why does the congratulatory message (truly the closest thing to Word of God in the game) tell you the Reapers were defeated regardless of your choice?

Well, for point one, it is still possible that Shepard was still at least a little caught up in the hallucination/indoctrination and his mind was trying to find a way for them to survive.

For point two, it would make sense that after the war there would be a grandfather and his grandkid talking about the way things were, and that it is possible that the old man is mearly talking about what will happen to this kid when he grows up and can travel into space.

Last point, well, I'll leave that one up to others who have wittnessed the ending first hand.

[Outlaw704]

I said this in my earlier post but I will reinstate this to see what yall think, what if Shepards god child indoctrination sequence wasn't unique at all.. what if the reapers do this to every candidate they see if they can become useful Reaper Agents? Using Saren, TIM and Anderson as examples... What if the reapers saw all 3 as viable agents and presented them with 3 choices, (Destroy - to fight off indoctrination, Control - To manipulate a persons greed - this turns the potential agent into a reaper slave, Synthesis - give up, feel that we should obey to reapers inorder not to perish.. I think its possible that these 3 were all given the choice and they all decided accordingly.. this is why it shows TIM and Anderson as picking their choices.. And Merging/working with the reapers was obviously Sarens choice, it makes sense to me atleast lol