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[JeffZero]

Evil_medved wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

So ME3 ends for approximately a quarter of the player base that even beats the game with Shepard resisting indoctrination.

Uh, congratulations. If it winds up true this is possibly even worse. One choice is correct and there truly, unequivocally, inarguably is no closure whatsoever.

You sure try hard to kill every bit of hope we have. Let us see the light while it lasts, k? When bio will burst our bubble, well have more then enough depression anyway.

Are you kidding? I've been actively collecting data participating in the fan campaign to deliver some form of decency to the endings. I just don't for a second believe this is how it's going to go down. And it hurts a lot more to fall down from higher ledges. Always best to be open to everything.

Which is why while I don't believe this I'll be happy if I'm wrong. And accept that it is still a possibility.

[Burgerkrieg]

Also a pretty nice indicator for the child not being real: When it climbs up the Alliance Shuttle at the beginning of the game, the alliance soldier next to it is doing... nothing. I mean, it's a ****ing kid, he could just lift it with one finger. but instead the kid has a pretty hard time to get on that shuttle.

Another point that speaks for sheps indoctrination: He has been around object Rho for two days, sedated. I don't know if sedatives make indoctrination easier, but TIM wanted the operation of his implants to be without sedatives, maybe to resist indoctrination attempts.

On ething that speaks against the indoctrination is that neither Javik nor the prothean VI on Thessia notice indoctrination on Shepard. They are however, capable of detecting indoctrination.

[Sl4sh3r]

Rip504 wrote...

Shared wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...


Or the control or synthesize options, which both lean heavily into becoming part of the machine, are actually the indoctrination options.  

Destroy is Shepherd breaking free of the indoctrination attempt. As it makes sense because star child says you will die if you choose the destroy option but you obviously survive if you have enough EMS.

You have to remember, if its all hallucination, it all plays out in Sheperd's mind.

We are talking about destroy,In one Shep armor hits the ground(High EMS). In the other Shepard armor does not (low EMS)

So???? He is indoctrinated and doesn't picture hiself surviving unless I get a high number?
Or could your Happy/good ending be you seeing the armor and pretending...
So if I have a low EMS and Shep does not see the N7 armor,what I never woke up from indoctrination? Reapers win after 5 years and 3 games? Really?

Why not? If you ****ed upp in ME 2, you die... So lets say this isnt the end of the game, and its just what we think it is, in his head. And you **** upp. You die, and its game freaking over. Your choices actually cause you to die! You loose reapers win (or offcourse you become indoctrinated). If you however see through the ruse, you live and get to defeat them

LoL Where do you live and defeat them???
In the same ending you say I messed up on and died,while the Reapers won.
Because of a few points? My EMS(2nd playthrough) Was over 3k just under 4k.

Wow, you're so ****ing ignorant.

Go to the original post. If you have over 5k EMS at the end of the game and you choose the destroy option there is a "secret" ending where someone (assuming Shepard) in an N7 suit takes a breath of air.

The entire game is based around getting EMS, and you think it plays a small part in the story?

Loyalty missions in ME2 played a huge part.

EMS in ME3 plays a huge part.

At least have some understanding of the game you're playing. Holy ****.

[RobT2012]

BlackDragonBane wrote...

RobT2012 wrote...

anarch1888 wrote...

RobT2012 wrote...

the collector general was sat in a base built of reaper tech, that was actually building a human reaper. So the collector general really couldnt any closer than that to a reaper indoctrination field. I dont think it points to a greater mind bending power that harbinger has over all other reapers. Its still a local effect. Harby just uses a quantum entangler to end his thoughts to the collector base, and the local idoc field does the rest,

Well, even if he did do it through the QED, there's still the difference in sheer numbers that Harbinger and Sovereign controlled. The Geth in ME1 were there on their own free will if I remember it correctly.

-Draikin- wrote...

I'm surprised at how many people are clinging to this theory for hope that the endings weren't the real deal. Can I just ask this to the people who believe this theory: am I correct when I say you believe that in a week or so Bioware is actually going to come out and say "hey guys, it was all just a dream, here's the real ending for free"?

Dunno. I'm here just for the kicks of speculation.

The Geth prior to ME3 do not really have a conscious mind to control. Their programs operate on consensus getting progressively smarter the larger the geth platform becomes, as each program ads to the total processing power as a whole. They wanted a super structure to house all programs to reach their own perfection. ME1 Geth split from the main hive as they were promised a reaper construct to achieve this, they were not indoctrinated at all, they were bribed. The Geth do ascend to true conscious AI status en masse untill the events of ME3. In ME3 the geth working for the reapers, are still not actually indoctrinated, they were being attacked by Quarians, had their own super vessel destroyed and partnered with the repears willingly. The reaper code increased their processing power, to allow to them to function better, it does not say this is indoctrination.

Also doesn't say it isn't indoctrination, but in a different manner.

In ME2, I believe that Legion explains the difference between the Geth and the Heretics comes down to a difference in coding. Sovereign was found in the Perseus Veil, which the Geth called home and we all know the Reapers emit a signal that cause the indoctrination in organics, which slowly changes and breaks down the mind.

What's not to say that being organic and machine, the Reaper indoctrination signal carries an underlying transmisisoin that is capable of hacking AIs and implanting a virus that slowly modifies their coding just like indoctrination changes an organic's mind?

Granted I really have nothing to really support this thought aside from Legion's short dialogue in ME2, but I'm just throwing it out there.

I get what you are saying and its not possible to say for certain whether right or wrong. What I am saying is that the Geth with the exception of Legion who was built wholly differently for his recon mission, do not need to be indoctrinated like organics. They are by and large giant logic programs. They make the logical choice to partner with the dominating force, they dont need to be forced to it in the way humans do. Not saying im right either. I am just using this to say that the amount of Geth forces under sovereign and harbingers control is not going to be a good indicator of who had the strongest indoctriation skills, as machines would have logically joined for survival, in fact doesnt legion say exactly that, that the geth joined Harby to save themselves from the Quarian onslaught?

[ReclaimedHavoc]

Hey people.

[savionen]

JeffZero wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Here's another one: why does Shepard still bother dreaming up the Normandy crash after resisting indoctrination and choosing Destroy?

Also, why is that Stargazer scene always there?

Why does the congratulatory message (truly the closest thing to Word of God in the game) tell you the Reapers were defeated regardless of your choice?

Well, for point one, it is still possible that Shepard was still at least a little caught up in the hallucination/indoctrination and his mind was trying to find a way for them to survive.

For point two, it would make sense that after the war there would be a grandfather and his grandkid talking about the way things were, and that it is possible that the old man is mearly talking about what will happen to this kid when he grows up and can travel into space.

Last point, well, I'll leave that one up to others who have wittnessed the ending first hand.

But if the Stargazer scene always happens, the Reapers somehow always failed at annihilating everyone. Even when Shepard 'fails to resist indoctrination'. Or are post-credits scenes now part of his hopes as well? Well then why does this play even after Shepard wakes up?

Doesn't it show Shepard waking up AFTER Stargazer?

[JeffZero]

squee365 wrote...

"Struggle if you wish... your mind will be mine" - Harbinger (Arrival)

If that doesn't convince people, I don't know what will.

A more fittingly-flavored Harbinger insult from a largely-maligned DLC isn't making me bat a lash.

[ArkkAngel007]

lookingglassmind wrote...

hex23 wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

BIG flaw in the logic of this thread.

So, only one ending is the correct one? Only one ending, that maybe only 35% of the player-base will actually attain is the continuing point?

LOL no.

What? lol....seriously?

The whole point of the series is to destroy the Reapers. During the last 3 games, they beat you over the head with that message. It's driven home especially hard in part 3.

So in light of that why are you surprised that the only correct answer is "DESTROY THE REAPERS"? There is only one possible answer....The Illusive Man shows you how working with the Reapers, or trying to control them, turns out directly before you're give the decision.

Sorry, hex, but did you read the theory at all? Or even Page 1 of this thread?

Read it, and come back and defend your statement.

I think Hex is agreeing with the theory actually.  He's just explaining how it's weird that people think that there is only one solution when the other two have been proven to be dead-ends throughout the series.

[MissMaster_2]

savionen wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Here's another one: why does Shepard still bother dreaming up the Normandy crash after resisting indoctrination and choosing Destroy?

Also, why is that Stargazer scene always there?

Why does the congratulatory message (truly the closest thing to Word of God in the game) tell you the Reapers were defeated regardless of your choice?

Well, for point one, it is still possible that Shepard was still at least a little caught up in the hallucination/indoctrination and his mind was trying to find a way for them to survive.

For point two, it would make sense that after the war there would be a grandfather and his grandkid talking about the way things were, and that it is possible that the old man is mearly talking about what will happen to this kid when he grows up and can travel into space.

Last point, well, I'll leave that one up to others who have wittnessed the ending first hand.

But if the Stargazer scene always happens, the Reapers somehow always failed at annihilating everyone. Even when Shepard 'fails to resist indoctrination'. Or are post-credits scenes now part of his hopes as well? Well then why does this play even after Shepard wakes up?

Doesn't it show Shepard waking up AFTER Stargazer?

yes...I think

[De1ta G]

JeffZero wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Here's another one: why does Shepard still bother dreaming up the Normandy crash after resisting indoctrination and choosing Destroy?

Also, why is that Stargazer scene always there?

Why does the congratulatory message (truly the closest thing to Word of God in the game) tell you the Reapers were defeated regardless of your choice?

Listen, there people here are just trying to find an "out" to the horrible endings we got from Bioware. Look at how much thought and preocess has been put into this theory, three hundred plus pages worth. Do any of you REALLY think the same company who made Dragon Age 2 and TORtanic could pull off a twist of for the ages like this?

Dream on.

Yeah, this is why I'm still not inclined to believe it, lol.

I think we understand you don't believe it. Ok. Cool. You can leave now.

[Revan87]

It seems nobody looked at my post. Just look at the game folder of your harddisk and compare it with the files on the second dvd... And as far as I know 8GB from the first DVD + 6.*GB from the second one is 14GB. But there are only 12GB...

[v0rt3x22]

You know - I support the 'Indoctrination' Theory and consider this:

For a guy that's been a survivor throughout 3 games - manages to bring down Sovereign, killed Saren, survived the collectors, survived a 1:1 fight with a Reaper - I honestly think this is an absolutely great plot twist.

Consider the fact that when the Asari World is lost - we see a completely new side to Shepard.
He's sick of Cerberus, he's sick of the War - he's in need of a much deserved break - and he even gets sick at Jeff's Jokes.

Shepard is exhausted - and not that 'Super Hero'-I Survive-Everything - kind of guy anymore.

To have him (in a way) 'finally' succumb to the Reapers through indoctrination - and thereby highlighting the fact that Shepard always was 'Just Human' - is - for me - such a way better ending than what we all came to expect -> Go to the Citadel, Activate the Crucible -> War over.

It would have been almost predictable.

I'm happy with the way things seem to play out at the moment - if there's any truth to this theory.

[iwillkillfortali]

savionen wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Here's another one: why does Shepard still bother dreaming up the Normandy crash after resisting indoctrination and choosing Destroy?

Also, why is that Stargazer scene always there?

Why does the congratulatory message (truly the closest thing to Word of God in the game) tell you the Reapers were defeated regardless of your choice?

Well, for point one, it is still possible that Shepard was still at least a little caught up in the hallucination/indoctrination and his mind was trying to find a way for them to survive.

For point two, it would make sense that after the war there would be a grandfather and his grandkid talking about the way things were, and that it is possible that the old man is mearly talking about what will happen to this kid when he grows up and can travel into space.

Last point, well, I'll leave that one up to others who have wittnessed the ending first hand.

But if the Stargazer scene always happens, the Reapers somehow always failed at annihilating everyone. Even when Shepard 'fails to resist indoctrination'. Or are post-credits scenes now part of his hopes as well? Well then why does this play even after Shepard wakes up?

Doesn't it show Shepard waking up AFTER Stargazer?

No because this scene is after the "normandy scene"

[Shared]

Rip504 wrote...

Shared wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...


Or the control or synthesize options, which both lean heavily into becoming part of the machine, are actually the indoctrination options.  

Destroy is Shepherd breaking free of the indoctrination attempt. As it makes sense because star child says you will die if you choose the destroy option but you obviously survive if you have enough EMS.

You have to remember, if its all hallucination, it all plays out in Sheperd's mind.

We are talking about destroy,In one Shep armor hits the ground(High EMS). In the other Shepard armor does not (low EMS)

So???? He is indoctrinated and doesn't picture hiself surviving unless I get a high number?
Or could your Happy/good ending be you seeing the armor and pretending...
So if I have a low EMS and Shep does not see the N7 armor,what I never woke up from indoctrination? Reapers win after 5 years and 3 games? Really?

Why not? If you ****ed upp in ME 2, you die... So lets say this isnt the end of the game, and its just what we think it is, in his head. And you **** upp. You die, and its game freaking over. Your choices actually cause you to die! You loose reapers win (or offcourse you become indoctrinated). If you however see through the ruse, you live and get to defeat them

LoL Where do you live and defeat them???
In the same ending you say I messed up on and died,while the Reapers won.
Because of a few points? My EMS(2nd playthrough) Was over 3k just under 4k.

Yes, you didnt do enough. If you get over 4k you can survive, if you get over 5k you will survive, but only if you see through the ruse and choose correctly. Why not make it "increadibly" hard to actually have a chance at defating the reapers. This offcourse depends on this actually beeing how alot of ppl think it is. But thats what this thread is all about. So basically, go unprepeared (if you see you cross 4 or 5k, it says the match/odds are eaven in the warrom. Never before this. It says you might possibly make it, dont remember the exact words, but i noticed this on my second playthourgh what it says changes as you get higher EMS, and only when u pass this barrier you get the you might actually have a chance description there! Check it out next time!! ).

[LenabotSE]

There are holes in both the "real" endings and the indoctrination endings. And I didn't believe the indoctrination theory at first, either - also dismissing it as wishful thinking. But there are fewer holes in the indoctrination theory than in the real endings. Well, maybe not fewer holes. But fewer gigantic gaping holes that a semi could plow through.

Like how Shepard wakes up in a pile of rubble that, as logic and observation would dictate, is still London.

Like how the Normandy makes an impossible landing on an uncharted planet with my squad mates from the final battle somehow on board. Which is a scene that appears BEFORE Shepard wakes up.

Or how Anderson gets in the beam after you and ends up in front you, with narration that makes it impossible for you not to see him (in the dark hallway with bodies, you should be seeing the doors open to access the catwalk if he's legitimately ahead of you - bright light would be pouring in). Especially after the Alliance withdraw order.

Most of the little issues that are being used to gun down the indoc theory have already been discussed and have fairly logical - if sometimes reaching - explanations. But the holes are smaller than what you get in the real endings.

[BlackDragonBane]

This thread is getting out of control with all the disgruntled fans who come in here and trying to punch holes in it without actually backing themselves up and sticking to the 'bioware sucks' argument and the fact that things keep getting repeated by new comers

Perhaps we should be working together to make a complete compendium on all the evidence for the theory to help Byne (OP) out instead of feeding the people looking for a fight and fighting among ourselves.

If this truly was far-fetched, the thread would likely not have exploded as it has and we wouldn't have game evidence to support the theory at all. The bottom line is, the game itself is providing all the proof that is needed for this theory, from the VERY first game with Saren. We aren't a bunch of grieving fans grasping for a better explanation for what we got in the end of ME3, we're analyzing the hints and clues and information the game itself presents to us as it's presented to us.

Do not be so quick to bash us unless you have done your own in-depth analysis of the themes of the games.

[Dwailing]

Outlaw704 wrote...

I said this in my earlier post but I will reinstate this to see what yall think, what if Shepards god child indoctrination sequence wasn't unique at all.. what if the reapers do this to every candidate they see if they can become useful Reaper Agents? Using Saren, TIM and Anderson as examples... What if the reapers saw all 3 as viable agents and presented them with 3 choices, (Destroy - to fight off indoctrination, Control - To manipulate a persons greed - this turns the potential agent into a reaper slave, Synthesis - give up, feel that we should obey to reapers inorder not to perish.. I think its possible that these 3 were all given the choice and they all decided accordingly.. this is why it shows TIM and Anderson as picking their choices.. And Merging/working with the reapers was obviously Sarens choice, it makes sense to me atleast lol

This makes so much sense.  And as for people who think that Bioware can't pull a twist this big off, need I remind you all of Mass Effect 1 with the Reaper discovery and the famous Vermire twist, Mass Effect 2 with the Prothean/Collector discovery and the Human Reaper discovery, and, last but not least, the discoveries in KOTOR that you are really Revan and the twist with Bastila turning on you.  Bioware has made a career of massive twists in their games, this could just be the biggest one EVER.  (I have not finished DA:O and it has been a while since I read the synopsis, but I can only assume that there was a massive twist in there, too.)

Edit: Looking back, this doesn't make quite as much sense, (the part about giving the offer to everyone) but I maintain the other part about the twist.

Modifié par Dwailing, 13 mars 2012 - 09:17 .

[CreepingGeth]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

BIG flaw in the logic of this thread.

So, only one ending is the correct one? Only one ending, that maybe only 35% of the player-base will actually attain is the continuing point?

LOL no.

Yes, only one ending is the correct one, because only one ending has you waking up. How are you saying lolno to a fact?

[JeffZero]

savionen wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Here's another one: why does Shepard still bother dreaming up the Normandy crash after resisting indoctrination and choosing Destroy?

Also, why is that Stargazer scene always there?

Why does the congratulatory message (truly the closest thing to Word of God in the game) tell you the Reapers were defeated regardless of your choice?

Well, for point one, it is still possible that Shepard was still at least a little caught up in the hallucination/indoctrination and his mind was trying to find a way for them to survive.

For point two, it would make sense that after the war there would be a grandfather and his grandkid talking about the way things were, and that it is possible that the old man is mearly talking about what will happen to this kid when he grows up and can travel into space.

Last point, well, I'll leave that one up to others who have wittnessed the ending first hand.

But if the Stargazer scene always happens, the Reapers somehow always failed at annihilating everyone. Even when Shepard 'fails to resist indoctrination'. Or are post-credits scenes now part of his hopes as well? Well then why does this play even after Shepard wakes up?

Doesn't it show Shepard waking up AFTER Stargazer?

If so then I partially retract this one. Still seems silly to flavor even post-credits with a very particular element though.

[Ona Demonie]

SWaTrus wrote...

Ona Demonie wrote...

Rob_K1 wrote...

camcon2100 wrote...

Not sure if you guys heard this but you hear a reaper shout at 4:34 here
here
Also when Shepard is looking for the kid at 0:56 seconds 
here
Hmm interesting they sound very familiar and if anything prove that when Shep wakes up there are still reapers around!

Bingo! I think? 

That doesn't sound like a reaper shout. 

It looks like[color=rgb(51, 51, 51)"> ] [/color]reinforcing steel.[color=rgb(51, 51, 51)"> ] [/color]the citadel[color=rgb(51, 51, 51)"> ]from this material[/color][color=rgb(51, 51, 51)"> ] [/color]your opinion?[color=rgb(51, 51, 51)"> ] [/color]space station! 

No, no. I'm just saying the sound itself doesn't sound like a reaper shout. I know Shepard is back on Earth; I have been defending that claim. It sounds more like the creaking of steel, kind of like that sound when you're on the sidemission in ME2 and you're exploring this huge ship that tilts the more Shepard moves toward the front.

Please do not jump to conclusions when I haven't even stated things that would imply something entirely different than what I am saying.

[Saile]

MissMaster_2 wrote...

savionen wrote...


Doesn't it show Shepard waking up AFTER Stargazer?

yes...I think

Nope, stargazer is after the credits. Shepard wakes up after the Normandy crashes.

Modifié par Sailers, 13 mars 2012 - 09:06 .

[BeardedPuma]

Dessalines wrote...

kent80082006 wrote...

Seriously if the indoctrination theory is not true to some extent I really can't think of other reasons why the star child says "wake up" instead of "why are you here" if you have different EMS, "wake up" can apply to both cases, why change it if it's not of some significance?

Exactly, he is either acting like you are friends or he is a jerk. There are bunch of different dialogue changes. It is not base on your EMS. It is base on your paragon/renegade or something else. I am not sure. I have over 4,000 but not 5,000, an he said wake up.

Did you save Anderson? and have the "I'm proud of you" conversation. 

If so, then 4000+ EMS is all that is needed to have the "perfect ending" where Shepard lives.

In that case the "Wake Up" line makes sense, since you have a chance to live. (If you have over 5000+ EMS, then even is Anderson dies, it doesn't matter, you can still live after the destroy option.)

[Outlaw704]

JeffZero wrote...

Evil_medved wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

So ME3 ends for approximately a quarter of the player base that even beats the game with Shepard resisting indoctrination.

Uh, congratulations. If it winds up true this is possibly even worse. One choice is correct and there truly, unequivocally, inarguably is no closure whatsoever.

You sure try hard to kill every bit of hope we have. Let us see the light while it lasts, k? When bio will burst our bubble, well have more then enough depression anyway.

Are you kidding? I've been actively collecting data participating in the fan campaign to deliver some form of decency to the endings. I just don't for a second believe this is how it's going to go down. And it hurts a lot more to fall down from higher ledges. Always best to be open to everything.

Which is why while I don't believe this I'll be happy if I'm wrong. And accept that it is still a possibility.

You seem to be taking a defeatist stance, if you are campaginign  for a ending change why are you taking such a hardliner against the indoctrination theory? atleast for that it wouldn't require a huge retcon and would fit nicely into an more fitting ending

[bankesrule]

I another proof to an indoctrination is this video:
if you watch and get to 1:41 does it not sound what the codex says for indoctrination?
I think it does, and if this the true than when Shepard gets unconscious from the lack of blood with TIM died and or Anderson, he wakes up to complete the indoctrination, just giving ideas on how this might work.