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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#876
humes spork

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FugitiveMind wrote...

And he's the only one.... why?

The chilling thought is that he's the only one of your main crew with no previous reaper contact.

Everyone else seems to have a moment or two of disillusionment and despair. There's a lot more "we might fail" out of the crew than in any of the games before, and struck em as a bit off.

A device on the normandy could account for all that, and lead us towards that path of hallucination.


Yeah, most definitely. More chilling than that is everyone onboard the Normandy had been there as a part of the refit project. Vega's the only FNG.

#877
lookingglassmind

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humes spork wrote...

FugitiveMind wrote...

And he's the only one.... why?

The chilling thought is that he's the only one of your main crew with no previous reaper contact.

Everyone else seems to have a moment or two of disillusionment and despair. There's a lot more "we might fail" out of the crew than in any of the games before, and struck em as a bit off.

A device on the normandy could account for all that, and lead us towards that path of hallucination.


Yeah, most definitely. More chilling than that is everyone onboard the Normandy had been there as a part of the refit project. Vega's the only FNG.


Oh, man! I love this! What an excellent extrapolation.

#878
k8ee

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I think it's only natural that Shep would imagine Joker and your LI crashing safely off on some untouched paradise. Idealistic and unreal, and totally unbelievable as anything other than wishful thinking on Shep's part as she considers the consequences of her actions - which she is driven to make by the people she cares about.

#879
k8ee

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I wasn't sold on the vega hearing a hum... but now... now... I'm not so sure. You guys could be on to something. Maybe it's not just random chatter, I mean why would they write that if it was just randomness and not something that means something...

Modifié par k8ee, 11 mars 2012 - 03:31 .


#880
FugitiveMind

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humes spork wrote...

FugitiveMind wrote...

And he's the only one.... why?

The chilling thought is that he's the only one of your main crew with no previous reaper contact.

Everyone else seems to have a moment or two of disillusionment and despair. There's a lot more "we might fail" out of the crew than in any of the games before, and struck em as a bit off.

A device on the normandy could account for all that, and lead us towards that path of hallucination.


Yeah, most definitely. More chilling than that is everyone onboard the Normandy had been there as a part of the refit project. Vega's the only FNG.


Poke holes in my own theory, but the other additions would be Ken and Gabby, but they spend all day next to that loud as heck drive core, and Chakwas.

Come to think of it, those 3 definitely had reaper contact if they're alive...

So yeah, Vega is the only new variable on the ship, everyone else has been exposed to the reapers or indoctrination in some form or another ASSUMING there's a device on the ship

Modifié par FugitiveMind, 11 mars 2012 - 03:33 .


#881
Polat995

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Ok, let's say it is the real ending. Then how the hell can I fire normal pistol more than 50 times without changing thermal clip?

#882
DXLelouch15

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something is definately amiss here

#883
MPSai

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Polat995 wrote...

Ok, let's say it is the real ending. Then how the hell can I fire normal pistol more than 50 times without changing thermal clip?


If everything from the approach to the beam on is Vanilla Sky'd then it makes sense still.

If the ending isn't a hallucination... creative license? Speaking of which the fact you can die in the slow motion walk to the beam kind of takes away from the epicness of it, Bioware.

#884
Ormeriel

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byne wrote...

DerNix wrote...

The hallucination thing would fit to the breathing vid where all over is concrete. I doubt that the citadel was build of it.... oh hope...


Exactly, and the reason you only get that video if you choose destroy the Reapers is because thats the only choice where Shepard keeps his resolve to defeat the Reapers no matter what. In the other two he gives up, and decides some form of compromise would be best.


This actually makes sense. I certainly hope that's the case.

#885
HydraNiel

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I just want to know one thing.

After being beamed up to the Citadel where we supposedly see literally everything dead and torn. Why the hell are the keepers still alive and moving?

#886
FugitiveMind

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Polat995 wrote...

Ok, let's say it is the real ending. Then how the hell can I fire normal pistol more than 50 times without changing thermal clip?


Pistol Magazine Upgrade LXII

#887
erikage

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Please Bioware, make this happen. And quick. If this actually was all planned by Bioware, kudos to them. It's genius. The only issue though, I'm afraid it would be paid dlc.

#888
lookingglassmind

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Dezu wrote...

I just want to know one thing.

After being beamed up to the Citadel where we supposedly see literally everything dead and torn. Why the hell are the keepers still alive and moving?


Because this is Shepard's interpretation of what s/he is seeing. Everything is an archetype. The Catalyst is an archetype, and takes the form of someone Shepard saw. The Citadel has vivsected bodies in it because that's what the Reapers mean to Shepard. The Keepers are still moving because that's how Shepard always saw them. Etc, etc, etc.

Modifié par lookingglassmind, 11 mars 2012 - 03:37 .


#889
monkspider

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I posted this on another forum and it is probably familiar ground to all of you, but I thought I would share my summary of the strongest evidence of the hallucination theory.

There is a theory going around that the entire ending after Shepard was blasted by Sovereign was a hallucination, either from a dying Shepard or from Harbinger indoctrination. The key evidence is as follows:

-When you are running to the beam of light, the voice on the radio says that everyone was wiped out. You would think they would have noticed Anderson and Shepard were still going. It is also odd that Anderson somehow makes it there before you even though you never see him.

-You are wearing different clothes and have a different gun that now has infinite ammo.

-The entire Citadel sequence is ethereal and dreamlike, with the talk about the Citadal changing shape and emerging through a dark tunnel. TIM and Anderson may represent different parts of Shepard's conscious.

-It would be impossible for Shepard to have a conversation with the Starchild and survive in the vacuum of space without a helmet.

-The Starchild is either a hallucination or Harbinger attempting to indoctrinate you. Note that the choice he leads you to believe is the worst is the one that you had always set out to do and throughout the game considered to be the only realistic option, destroying the Reapers. The other two represent the choices of either Saren (synthesis) or TIM (control). If you choose either of these two your Shepard appears to be briefly huskified, but this doesn't happen with Destroy. Destroy is also the only way to unlock the secret ending that shows Shepard alive (provided you have a high enough military strength).

-Oh, and about that secret ending, Shepard wakes up not in what appears to be the ruins of the Citadel, but in a pile of concrete and rebar. In other words, Shepard wakes up back in London where he was after the Harbinger blast.

#890
k8ee

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Dezu wrote...

I just want to know one thing.

After being beamed up to the Citadel where we supposedly see literally everything dead and torn. Why the hell are the keepers still alive and moving?


That's the thing...

Who's to say you reach the Citadel and Shep isn't just seeing what he/she expects to see? Who says we even made it anywhere after we were blasted by harby?

#891
cannedcream

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I would pay any money for a DLC that says that ending wasn't real.

#892
humes spork

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lookingglassmind wrote...

Oh, man! I love this! What an excellent extrapolation.

Now that I'm thinking about it, it does raise some questions about Vega.

He does mention his father's name was Sanders, though he's pretty quick to disclaim relation to Kahlee. Might explain why Anderson paid so much attention to him and put him in charge of guarding Shepard...which raises another big one. There's still not much in the way of exposition on Shepard's detainment, though we know Shepard's been kept out of the general population and under the close watch of the military. And, Vega's practically a krogan, if anybody that could stand a chance at taking down Shepard if s/he went rogue, it'd be him...

And hell, BW bent over backwards to point Vega out as the FNG with the fresh perspective who hasn't any particular historical connection to Shepard.

Modifié par humes spork, 11 mars 2012 - 03:39 .


#893
lavosslayer

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MPSai wrote...

Polat995 wrote...

Ok, let's say it is the real ending. Then how the hell can I fire normal pistol more than 50 times without changing thermal clip?


If everything from the approach to the beam on is Vanilla Sky'd then it makes sense still.

If the ending isn't a hallucination... creative license? Speaking of which the fact you can die in the slow motion walk to the beam kind of takes away from the epicness of it, Bioware.



Well if it is a process of indoctrination then if Shepard dies at any point it just means he's given into it...

#894
Polat995

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FugitiveMind wrote...

Polat995 wrote...

Ok, let's say it is the real ending. Then how the hell can I fire normal pistol more than 50 times without changing thermal clip?


Pistol Magazine Upgrade LXII


I've never used magazine update on pistol.

How can we defeat Marauder so easily with pistol?

#895
MPSai

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monkspider wrote...


-When you are running to the beam of light, the voice on the radio says that everyone was wiped out. You would think they would have noticed Anderson and Shepard were still going. It is also odd that Anderson somehow makes it there before you even though you never see him.


Come to think of it after Anderson dies isn't it Hackett that tells Shepard the thing isn't working? Did Shepard radio in to say they made it on there? S/he probably did am I'm just forgetting... otherwise it's a massive plothole. Or supports the indoctrination/hallucination theory.

#896
Ormeriel

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monkspider wrote...

I posted this on another forum and it is probably familiar ground to all of you, but I thought I would share my summary of the strongest evidence of the hallucination theory.

There is a theory going around that the entire ending after Shepard was blasted by Sovereign was a hallucination, either from a dying Shepard or from Harbinger indoctrination. The key evidence is as follows:

-When you are running to the beam of light, the voice on the radio says that everyone was wiped out. You would think they would have noticed Anderson and Shepard were still going. It is also odd that Anderson somehow makes it there before you even though you never see him.

-You are wearing different clothes and have a different gun that now has infinite ammo.

-The entire Citadel sequence is ethereal and dreamlike, with the talk about the Citadal changing shape and emerging through a dark tunnel. TIM and Anderson may represent different parts of Shepard's conscious.

-It would be impossible for Shepard to have a conversation with the Starchild and survive in the vacuum of space without a helmet.

-The Starchild is either a hallucination or Harbinger attempting to indoctrinate you. Note that the choice he leads you to believe is the worst is the one that you had always set out to do and throughout the game considered to be the only realistic option, destroying the Reapers. The other two represent the choices of either Saren (synthesis) or TIM (control). If you choose either of these two your Shepard appears to be briefly huskified, but this doesn't happen with Destroy. Destroy is also the only way to unlock the secret ending that shows Shepard alive (provided you have a high enough military strength).

-Oh, and about that secret ending, Shepard wakes up not in what appears to be the ruins of the Citadel, but in a pile of concrete and rebar. In other words, Shepard wakes up back in London where he was after the Harbinger blast.


This sounds sensible, and I certainly hope that's the case.

#897
MPSai

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lavosslayer wrote...

MPSai wrote...

Polat995 wrote...

Ok, let's say it is the real ending. Then how the hell can I fire normal pistol more than 50 times without changing thermal clip?


If everything from the approach to the beam on is Vanilla Sky'd then it makes sense still.

If the ending isn't a hallucination... creative license? Speaking of which the fact you can die in the slow motion walk to the beam kind of takes away from the epicness of it, Bioware.



Well if it is a process of indoctrination then if Shepard dies at any point it just means he's given into it...



I just meant the coolness of the scene is kind of diminished if you keep getting interrupted because you're not sure what to do or what you can do. 

#898
Hanabii

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I am of the Hallucination theory you may have seen gabbed on about in other threads.

The whole game Commander Shepard was getting more and more stressed, as time went on she became less and less 'human'. In a way.

When you first get onto the Citadel it feels like a dream. You're crawling through a hallway of your own dead. Mysteriously faced with the Illusive man with no hint at how he got there. When he commands you, you put a bullet in Anderson and are using all your might to resist.

The bodies are like the phantoms in her dreams that she'd been having. They didn't seem real. Her mental state is weakened by blood loss, consistent exposure to indoctrination. They might not have even been real.

Let's use other examples of other people who'd felt it.

Saren said Indoctrination was subtle and crafty. The Illusive Man didn't even know he was indoctrinated unless you Paragon'd the HELL out of him. Rana Thanoptist (Get out of here before I blow up Vermire Girl.) who had a weak mind committed suicide after even her relatively small exposure compared to Shepard. Shialla (Green Girl) was only freed from it by the effects of the Thorien and was Mindlinked to the Feros Collenists who made a suprising effective force. I believe Shialla's mind-link allowed other's minds to stabilize and counter re-indoctrination, that and the exposure to the Thorian's mind.

Shepard in the dream chases the kid, a dream that started as Post Traumatic Stress from watching a kid die, a cross of guilt to bare. But as the game went on Shepard kept being exposed to the Reapers more and more and more, destroying them, getting close. Others even with no reapers around were getting taken over and killing each other.

In the dark dream Shepard is warned, as she runs chasing the phantom she sees herself hugging the child, smiling creepily as they both burn, a forewarning of what lies ahead. That the reapers are riding on an image of her guilt as 'The Catalyst' of her indoctrination.

"Good Endings." -
Finally Shepard stands at the end face to face with her nightmarish guilt. Having made it so far only through the will to beat the reapers. She is offered three choices by the Catalyst.

One is to Control the Reapers, to become them. However as I was hinted, she is indoctrinated herself in the final throws. This destroys the Mass Relays and causes the reapers to withdraw.

Second is the Biomerge of Technology using her as the Palate. Everyone in the universe is made into a Cyborg. Including Synthetics who are Augmented with organic. The Reapers Withdraw.

The Last is to carry on strong, We win or we die! You destroy the reapers once and for all. However the cost will be the death of the Geth (Who would willingly make the sacrifice to save organics if you persuaded them.) and EDI (Who was always ready to die to help Shepard.)

The Catch 22.
I theorize the Catalyst ISN'T what it seems. It the Catalyst of Shepard's Indoctrination. That in each ending Shepard does not die a true death.

Ending 1 and 2, Shepard's mind is overthrown, Shepard is indoctrinated and is now controlled, Shepard thinks (S)he is dead. Now a tool of the reapers who is still alive. The Mass Relays are gone, but the reapers are infinitely patient and truly unknowable.

The Illusive Man's path of control means Shepard didn't stop the reapers and now the universe is stuck without the Mass Relays and the reapers are infinitely patient.

The Biomerge Path, means all life has been given the ideal form for indoctrination of all. Shepard's indoctrinated energy is in all life, organic or not. And the reapers are a part of everyone now. Allowing them to begin a mass indoctrination beyond scale.

The Destruction Path, Shepard destroys the reapers. Overcoming the indoctrination. Waking up amidst the rubble on earth. (Shep is a sturdy SOB to take so much damage.) The Indoctrination attempt failed Shepard's conviction held through to the end and even in an unstable condition Shepard was able to hold to "We fight or we die."

Both other endings Shepard stops fighting and sees Her/Himself die. Stop fighting and die.
However is Shepard dead? Or is Shepard walking indoctrinated while the true ending is under design?

"The Bad Ending" -
Shepard quickly before everyone is ready, before the Crucible is perfected rushes to fight the reapers. The Crucible is incapable of the Technomerge and Outright Indoctrinating Shepard isn't an option.

With some Resistance left (Due to shorter exposure time) Shepard destroys the reapers, the unfinished Crucible destroys the planet, the reapers, everyone on earth and Shepard. Shepard never gave into the Indoctrination and was too strong at the time to ever do so. Too much resistance left.

---
The Joker Vision

A final glimpse at what is going on, Joker crashing down somewhere. Is it a vision to placate Shepard? Is Joker lost and stranded with a need to be picked up?

The Reapers died, but so did the earth.

---

The Possible Future.
"Can you tell me another story about the Shepherd?"

At some point Shepard is required, if (s)he is indoctrinated (Blue/Green) Ending. She awakens to learn the reapers are still out there. That doom is still upon them. And that through the sacrifices of others His/Her indoctrination was broken.

If Shepard destroyed the Reapers, Shepard awakens. Having destroyed the Reapers and fought off the Indoctrination. The Reaper Tech is gone. However Shepard is alive. (Shepard is very largely Cyborg, grey muscles, wires, AKA Lazarus Project Cyborg.) Meaning that the Geth also possibly survived.

The new Mission Either way involves coping with the change to the universe. Tracking down the lost. Picking up the peaces and building a new path.

"I need to find my people.", "I need to know that (Love Interest) is okay." At your side you have your people. "I need to get the Quarian's Home." "Wrex's Family needs him." "The Asari need to return to Thessia."

"We are all together now, our enemy is gone, but we are stranded away from home. We need to rebuild, but we, all the people of this Galaxy, stand together to rebuild. We will do on our own what we always have. We will forge our own path."

Always remember it is a vast universe, there is still Dark Energy out there. There is still many enemies waiting in the universe. What new threats await when the Mass Relays aren't around to guide you?

#899
FugitiveMind

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Polat995 wrote...

FugitiveMind wrote...

Polat995 wrote...

Ok, let's say it is the real ending. Then how the hell can I fire normal pistol more than 50 times without changing thermal clip?


Pistol Magazine Upgrade LXII


I've never used magazine update on pistol.

How can we defeat Marauder so easily with pistol?


In my best EDI voice:
It was a joke

#900
CommanderSmacker

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If this theory is true it would certainly explain why we needed to keep our ME3 saves. Because of what ending we chose :D