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[lookingglassmind]

humes spork wrote...

He does mention his father's name was Sanders, though he's pretty quick to disclaim relation to Kahlee. Might explain why Anderson paid so much attention to him and put him in charge of guarding Shepard...which raises another big one. There's still not much in the way of exposition on Shepard's detainment, though we know Shepard's been kept out of the general population and under the close watch of the military. And, Vega's practically a krogan, if anybody that could stand a chance at taking down Shepard if s/he went rogue, it'd be him...

And hell, BW bent over backwards to point Vega out as the FNG with the fresh perspective who hasn't any particular historical connection to Shepard.

You know what? I am going to strike that one as odd. It could be explained away by the nature of the plot (imminent war and annihilation), but ME has always been very careful to explain where Shepard has been when s/he has been out of commission. Even if it is uncertain to Shepard himself/herself, or even if Shepard (or others) doubt the story, a relatively detailed one has been given. This time around, it was: "I've been out of comission. Under watch." And that's sort of it.

[cannedcream]

monkspider wrote...

I posted this on another forum and it is probably familiar ground to all of you, but I thought I would share my summary of the strongest evidence of the hallucination theory.

There is a theory going around that the entire ending after Shepard was blasted by Sovereign was a hallucination, either from a dying Shepard or from Harbinger indoctrination. The key evidence is as follows:

-When you are running to the beam of light, the voice on the radio says that everyone was wiped out. You would think they would have noticed Anderson and Shepard were still going. It is also odd that Anderson somehow makes it there before you even though you never see him.

-You are wearing different clothes and have a different gun that now has infinite ammo.

-The entire Citadel sequence is ethereal and dreamlike, with the talk about the Citadal changing shape and emerging through a dark tunnel. TIM and Anderson may represent different parts of Shepard's conscious.

-It would be impossible for Shepard to have a conversation with the Starchild and survive in the vacuum of space without a helmet.

-The Starchild is either a hallucination or Harbinger attempting to indoctrinate you. Note that the choice he leads you to believe is the worst is the one that you had always set out to do and throughout the game considered to be the only realistic option, destroying the Reapers. The other two represent the choices of either Saren (synthesis) or TIM (control). If you choose either of these two your Shepard appears to be briefly huskified, but this doesn't happen with Destroy. Destroy is also the only way to unlock the secret ending that shows Shepard alive (provided you have a high enough military strength).

-Oh, and about that secret ending, Shepard wakes up not in what appears to be the ruins of the Citadel, but in a pile of concrete and rebar. In other words, Shepard wakes up back in London where he was after the Harbinger blast.

Which are all pretty compelling to me.

There's also something off about Anderson's voice up until you see him. Why is he whispering like that?

[k8ee]

MPSai wrote...

Come to think of it after Anderson dies isn't it Hackett that tells Shepard the thing isn't working? Did Shepard radio in to say they made it on there? S/he probably did am I'm just forgetting... otherwise it's a massive plothole. Or supports the indoctrination/hallucination theory.

Hacket could very well be part of Shep's subconscious. It's hard to say... or maybe he really is radioing her and she can hear it, but he can't hear her answers back because she is actually knocked out.

[lavosslayer]

MPSai wrote...

monkspider wrote...


-When you are running to the beam of light, the voice on the radio says that everyone was wiped out. You would think they would have noticed Anderson and Shepard were still going. It is also odd that Anderson somehow makes it there before you even though you never see him.

Come to think of it after Anderson dies isn't it Hackett that tells Shepard the thing isn't working? Did Shepard radio in to say they made it on there? S/he probably did am I'm just forgetting... otherwise it's a massive plothole. Or supports the indoctrination/hallucination theory.

Nope...nobody was contacted...thing is they would know he or someone got there by the arms opening which is why Hackett just assumes its Shepard. I don't think this part is really significant though because he would be expecting Hackett to be the one contacting him if this was really happening anyway.

[littleork]

I followed this thread since the first page and really happy to see thats now at 36 pages, didnt read the last 15 pages but glad that people like it, i replay the ending in my head and i think to see shepard open his eyes after normandy crash fit so well with the music, like he is NO...IM NOT LETTING MY PEOPLE DIE, time to resist and finish that ****.

[Kingthlayer]

This is my opinion on the matter. After taking the beam up and hearing Anderson saying Shepard a few times I was expecting to wake up. And then again when Hackett was calling my name after Anderson died. But it just keeps going on and going on.

I finished the game and not once did I feel that it ended. The ending is just so different from the rest of the game, I truly believe that it was a dream, and that Shepard is on the Normandy when it crashes because there is no other reason for Kaiden to be there if Shepard isn't.

That or Harbinger killed Shepard on Earth when running to the portal.

I won't accept any other answer, the whole Shepard/TIM/Anderson/God Kid scene doesn't exist because none of it makes any sense. FFS that scene is a mirror of the Saren scene, clearly something Shepard dug out of his brain.

[humes spork]

k8ee wrote...

I wasn't sold on the vega hearing a hum... but now... now... I'm not so sure. You guys could be on to something. Maybe it's not just random chatter, I mean why would they write that if it was just randomness and not something that means something...

Yeah, that's definitely a deliberate move. Something like that doesn't just turn out to be nothing in a BW game. Hell, look at KoTOR and the fact they were practically waving the fact the PC was Revan in our faces the whole damn game through little odd throwaway lines.

There's no doubt in my mind there's an Indoctrination device on the Normandy, and Vega being the FNG is the only one paying attention or even noticing it, and that's a part of something way bigger that will be exposited or revealed.

[Hanabii]

I am of the Hallucination theory you may have seen gabbed on about in other threads.

The whole game Commander Shepard was getting more and more stressed, as time went on she became less and less 'human'. In a way.

When you first get onto the Citadel it feels like a dream. You're crawling through a hallway of your own dead. Mysteriously faced with the Illusive man with no hint at how he got there. When he commands you, you put a bullet in Anderson and are using all your might to resist.

The bodies are like the phantoms in her dreams that she'd been having. They didn't seem real. Her mental state is weakened by blood loss, consistent exposure to indoctrination. They might not have even been real.

Let's use other examples of other people who'd felt it.

Saren said Indoctrination was subtle and crafty. The Illusive Man didn't even know he was indoctrinated unless you Paragon'd the HELL out of him. Rana Thanoptist (Get out of here before I blow up Vermire Girl.) who had a weak mind committed suicide after even her relatively small exposure compared to Shepard. Shialla (Green Girl) was only freed from it by the effects of the Thorien and was Mindlinked to the Feros Collenists who made a suprising effective force. I believe Shialla's mind-link allowed other's minds to stabilize and counter re-indoctrination, that and the exposure to the Thorian's mind.

Shepard in the dream chases the kid, a dream that started as Post Traumatic Stress from watching a kid die, a cross of guilt to bare. But as the game went on Shepard kept being exposed to the Reapers more and more and more, destroying them, getting close. Others even with no reapers around were getting taken over and killing each other.

In the dark dream Shepard is warned, as she runs chasing the phantom she sees herself hugging the child, smiling creepily as they both burn, a forewarning of what lies ahead. That the reapers are riding on an image of her guilt as 'The Catalyst' of her indoctrination.

"Good Endings." -
Finally Shepard stands at the end face to face with her nightmarish guilt. Having made it so far only through the will to beat the reapers. She is offered three choices by the Catalyst.

One is to Control the Reapers, to become them. However as I was hinted, she is indoctrinated herself in the final throws. This destroys the Mass Relays and causes the reapers to withdraw.

Second is the Biomerge of Technology using her as the Palate. Everyone in the universe is made into a Cyborg. Including Synthetics who are Augmented with organic. The Reapers Withdraw.

The Last is to carry on strong, We win or we die! You destroy the reapers once and for all. However the cost will be the death of the Geth (Who would willingly make the sacrifice to save organics if you persuaded them.) and EDI (Who was always ready to die to help Shepard.)

The Catch 22.
I theorize the Catalyst ISN'T what it seems. It the Catalyst of Shepard's Indoctrination. That in each ending Shepard does not die a true death.

Ending 1 and 2, Shepard's mind is overthrown, Shepard is indoctrinated and is now controlled, Shepard thinks (S)he is dead. Now a tool of the reapers who is still alive. The Mass Relays are gone, but the reapers are infinitely patient and truly unknowable.

The Illusive Man's path of control means Shepard didn't stop the reapers and now the universe is stuck without the Mass Relays and the reapers are infinitely patient.

The Biomerge Path, means all life has been given the ideal form for indoctrination of all. Shepard's indoctrinated energy is in all life, organic or not. And the reapers are a part of everyone now. Allowing them to begin a mass indoctrination beyond scale.

The Destruction Path, Shepard destroys the reapers. Overcoming the indoctrination. Waking up amidst the rubble on earth. (Shep is a sturdy SOB to take so much damage.) The Indoctrination attempt failed Shepard's conviction held through to the end and even in an unstable condition Shepard was able to hold to "We fight or we die."

Both other endings Shepard stops fighting and sees Her/Himself die. Stop fighting and die.
However is Shepard dead? Or is Shepard walking indoctrinated while the true ending is under design?

"The Bad Ending" -
Shepard quickly before everyone is ready, before the Crucible is perfected rushes to fight the reapers. The Crucible is incapable of the Technomerge and Outright Indoctrinating Shepard isn't an option.

With some Resistance left (Due to shorter exposure time) Shepard destroys the reapers, the unfinished Crucible destroys the planet, the reapers, everyone on earth and Shepard. Shepard never gave into the Indoctrination and was too strong at the time to ever do so. Too much resistance left.

---
The Joker Vision

A final glimpse at what is going on, Joker crashing down somewhere. Is it a vision to placate Shepard? Is Joker lost and stranded with a need to be picked up?

The Reapers died, but so did the earth.

---

The Possible Future.
"Can you tell me another story about the Shepherd?"

At some point Shepard is required, if (s)he is indoctrinated (Blue/Green) Ending. She awakens to learn the reapers are still out there. That doom is still upon them. And that through the sacrifices of others His/Her indoctrination was broken.

If Shepard destroyed the Reapers, Shepard awakens. Having destroyed the Reapers and fought off the Indoctrination. The Reaper Tech is gone. However Shepard is alive. (Shepard is very largely Cyborg, grey muscles, wires, AKA Lazarus Project Cyborg.) Meaning that the Geth also possibly survived.

The new Mission Either way involves coping with the change to the universe. Tracking down the lost. Picking up the peaces and building a new path.

"I need to find my people.", "I need to know that (Love Interest) is okay." At your side you have your people. "I need to get the Quarian's Home." "Wrex's Family needs him." "The Asari need to return to Thessia."

"We are all together now, our enemy is gone, but we are stranded away from home. We need to rebuild, but we, all the people of this Galaxy, stand together to rebuild. We will do on our own what we always have. We will forge our own path."

Always remember it is a vast universe, there is still Dark Energy out there. There is still many enemies waiting in the universe. What new threats await when the Mass Relays aren't around to guide you?

[rogueagent6]

Posted this over in the ending thread as an addition to Kitten Tactics' post.

rogueagent6 wrote...

Kitten Tactics wrote...

Please
indulge us crazies for a moment. The following is a partial list of
reasons we believe the ending is a hallucination. I promise if you read
it, it will make more sense than you think.

-The endgame
scenario is Indoctrination/Manipulation from the Reapers (Harbinger)
trying to force you into choosing to let the Reapers live. Shepard is
not awake during the final scenes.

-Choosing Control - You can not control them, they control you. Shepard says as much to the Illusive Man moments earlier.

-Choosing
Synthesis - Allows everyone in the galaxy to be manipulated by Reaper
code, like they have done to the Geth multiple times now.

-Choosing Destroy - Breaks the hold the reapers have on Shepard's mind.

-Choosing
to destroy all synthetic life option is more Renegade in appearence.
Controlling the Reapers is more Paragon in appearence. The Illusive
Man's choice should not be Paragon colors, just as Anderson's choice
should not be Renegade. The reapers are saying that Destroy is the
worst, Control is worse, and Synthesis is the best. They want you to
fail.

-Stating that all sythetic life will be destroyed will
give you pause; destroying the Geth can force you to a different
conclusion. This choice exists for the illusion of choice; the other
choices are ment to sound better.

-In Synthesis and Control, the
various energies cause Shepard to turn black and start to appear VERY
husk-like. This does not happen in Destroy because Destroy is the only
option in which Shepard is not falling under Reaper control.

-Shepard
wakes up after Destroy, because the Reaper's hold is diminished.
Shepard does not awake in the other 2 "endings" because you are fully
indoctrinated by the choices you made to allow the Reapers to win.
"Assuming Control!"

-How would the reapers (or anything really) know to use the image of the child unless they were inside Shepard's head?

-The
child does not actually exist. He is an attempt to indoctrinate
Shepard. Nobody but Shepard ever sees or interacts with the child.

-When
Anderson calls for Shepard at the beginning of the game, when Shepard
is talking to the child, Shepard turns back and the child is gone.
Shepard has been "snapped out of it".

-When Shepard turns towards
Anderson after being "snapped out of it", a growl is heard. In the
third novel, when Greyson resisted the reapers they would make a
growling noise once they realized they didn't have him under complete
control.

-During Shepard's final dream with the child, chatter
can be heard over the radio about nobody making it to the beam. Shepard
is still in London.

-When Shepard catches the child in the final
dream, they are both engulfed in flame. Going with the child (the
reapers) means Shepard's destruction.

-Shepard has spent alot of
time around Reapers. Soveriegn, various Reaper artifacts, the Human
Reaper, 2 Reaper destroyers, the Artifact from "The Arrival." Its
foolish to assume there is not some level of indoctrination.

-When Shepard wakes up at the end of Destroy, he/she is waking up in London, after being hit with the laser.

If you would like to discuss/contribute, please visit the thread listed here:

http://social.biowar.../index/9727423/

This.

The
whole ending sequence makes sence if it was a mental battle within
Shepards mind. And because of this I did go back and play the start to
get to the kid. You do indeed hear a growl when Anderson snaps you out
of it, what you don't hear is the kid moving backwards into the duct.

Also,
it is stated throughout all the games and novels that ANY reaper tech
can indoctrinate, and throughout the entire series Shepard is exposed to
reaper tech all the time. I don't know how many reaper sheild boosters I
destroyed throughout ME3. That also would explain why you only get the
ending with Shepard partially burried in rubble when you chose destroy,
because only in destroy do you win the mental battle.

Lastly, when talking to James Vega, he does ask you if you hear that humming...

Hoping this is the direction they went.

[Raveyn]

I see that some people are talking about an "Indoctrination Device" onboard the Normandy.

Anyone ever consider if that "Device" might be EDI herself?

It's mentioned a few times in the game that she is using Reaper programming similar to what happens with the Geth. Since both the Geth and EDI embrace this Reaper code, wouldn't that actually make them a new form of Reaper? (Without their knowledge at this point....)

And wouldn't that fit into the "Destroy" ending and explain why they would be wiped out along with the Reapers?

Just some more food for thought. This whole thread has restored a small iota of hope that maybe, just maybe Bioware has something up their sleeve.

The Normandy fleeing scene is just so far out from reality that it can't be real. (If that makes sense?  ) Same goes for Sheperd taking a breath after the "Good" Destroy ending. Only way that happens is if he never left Earth to begin with.  Say what you will about Bioware, but they couldn't have made a story this good end that bad with so many obvious plot holes...could they?

That said, I still can't get around why the Citadel was moved to Earth, but yeah.....

I Hope. Maybe I can do that NG+ game now to see if I'm the one thats dreaming or if there really is something there.

/Bravo Thread

Modifié par Raveyn, 11 mars 2012 - 03:52 .

[Polat995]

Well, Paul Grayson in book become more susceptible the Reaper indoctrination because of Red Sand. Could stress make us like him?

[krystalevenstar]

MPSai wrote...

monkspider wrote...


-When you are running to the beam of light, the voice on the radio says that everyone was wiped out. You would think they would have noticed Anderson and Shepard were still going. It is also odd that Anderson somehow makes it there before you even though you never see him.

Come to think of it after Anderson dies isn't it Hackett that tells Shepard the thing isn't working? Did Shepard radio in to say they made it on there? S/he probably did am I'm just forgetting... otherwise it's a massive plothole. Or supports the indoctrination/hallucination theory.

Oh damn, no you're right. Unless Anderson radioed off screen, then Hackett had no way to know whether or not they made it. Coats was claiming no one made it to the beam. Shepard never called in to anyone, Anderson just pops in over the comm knowing Shepard came through because he supposedly came in behind her.

[Leiha]

Alright guys, I've collected my thoughts after entering full rage mode from the crappy ending.
For me, there are three obvious "signs" that it's a hallucation.

1. In my playthrough, I brought Garrus with me for the final battle. He walked off the ship there in the end.. How did he get there? I'd say from you enter the portal/beam till you finish there's a time gap of about 10 minutes or so. I don't think Joker would've had enough time to swoop down to rescue Garrus.
(Would anyone mind checking if you always see someone from your squad in the final battle exit the Normandy? It was the case with both of my playthroughs)

As for the other two.. I forgot them while writing this reply. Dang.

Oh yeah, 2. The only ending where Shepard wakes up again is from the destroy ending. The Citadel would've been no more. How exactly did Shep survive the destruction of the Citadel?

Maybe I'm just rambling.

[lavosslayer]

humes spork wrote...

k8ee wrote...

I wasn't sold on the vega hearing a hum... but now... now... I'm not so sure. You guys could be on to something. Maybe it's not just random chatter, I mean why would they write that if it was just randomness and not something that means something...

Yeah, that's definitely a deliberate move. Something like that doesn't just turn out to be nothing in a BW game. Hell, look at KoTOR and the fact they were practically waving the fact the PC was Revan in our faces the whole damn game through little odd throwaway lines.

There's no doubt in my mind there's an Indoctrination device on the Normandy, and Vega being the FNG is the only one paying attention or even noticing it, and that's a part of something way bigger that will be exposited or revealed.

Not to mention, anyone that read the books knows that when Grayson was first being indoctrinated that he was having excruciating headaches as the Reapers bored into his mind. Makes sense that Vega would be experiencing the same thing...although I doubt Shepard is still on the Normandy as others have suggested. I do think he is still laying in the crater he fell in after Harbinger blew the crap out of Hammer squad...

[humes spork]

lookingglassmind wrote...

You know what? I am going to strike that one as odd. It could be explained away by the nature of the plot (imminent war and annihilation), but ME has always been very careful to explain where Shepard has been when s/he has been out of commission. Even if it is uncertain to Shepard himself/herself, or even if Shepard (or others) doubt the story, a relatively detailed one has been given. This time around, it was: "I've been out of comission. Under watch." And that's sort of it.

That could just be laziness on the part of the writers, but it certainly doesn't damage the notion that Vega's perpetually attached to Shepard's hip "just in case".

[Flapperrr]

I had even more mad thought - that if the hallucinations of Sheppard caused by Reapers, begin not in London, and from the game beginning when he hit a head, on court?

[CommanderSmacker]

Raveyn wrote...

I see that some people are talking about an "Indoctrination Device" onboard the Normandy.

Anyone ever consider if that "Device" might be EDI herself?

It's mentioned a few times in the game that she is using Reaper programming similar to what happens with the Geth. Since both the Geth and EDI embrace this Reaper code, wouldn't that actually make them a new form of Reaper? (Without their knowledge at this point....)

And wouldn't that fit into the "Destroy" ending and explain why they would be wiped out along with the Reapers?

Just some more food for thought. This whole thread has restored a small iota of hope that maybe, just maybe Bioware has something up their sleeve.

The Normandy fleeing scene is just so far out from reality that it can't be real. (If that makes sense? ) Same goes for Sheperd taking a breath after the "Good" Destroy ending. Only way that happens is if he never left Earth to begin with.

Still can't get around why the Citadel was moved to Earth, but yeah.....

Hope. I can finally do that NG+ now to see if I'm the one that dreaming or if there really is something there.

/Bravo Thread

Yeah totally makes sense!!

[lookingglassmind]

Raveyn wrote...

I see that some people are talking about an "Indoctrination Device" onboard the Normandy.

Anyone ever consider if that "Device" might be EDI herself?

It's mentioned a few times in the game that she is using Reaper programming similar to what happens with the Geth. Since both the Geth and EDI embrace this Reaper code, wouldn't that actually make them a new form of Reaper? (Without their knowledge at this point....)

Hmm. I'm trying to think what some of the crew responses to EDI were when she first arrived in ME2, and when she put herself into Dr. Eva's body in ME3... wonder if there is anything hinted at in the dialogue there about this.

[Sajuro]

MPSai wrote...

monkspider wrote...


-When you are running to the beam of light, the voice on the radio says that everyone was wiped out. You would think they would have noticed Anderson and Shepard were still going. It is also odd that Anderson somehow makes it there before you even though you never see him.

Come to think of it after Anderson dies isn't it Hackett that tells Shepard the thing isn't working? Did Shepard radio in to say they made it on there? S/he probably did am I'm just forgetting... otherwise it's a massive plothole. Or supports the indoctrination/hallucination theory.

I don't think Shepard called in that he made it, or if he did he didn't get a confirmation.
Another thing was when Anderson was talking to you, you could see the stairs before he said he was going up I think, and even as dark as it was, you should have been able to see a shadow against the light, or even the light from the stairs for when the walls opened up for Anderson.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

[humes spork]

lavosslayer wrote...

Not to mention, anyone that read the books knows that when Grayson was first being indoctrinated that he was having excruciating headaches as the Reapers bored into his mind. Makes sense that Vega would be experiencing the same thing...although I doubt Shepard is still on the Normandy as others have suggested. I do think he is still laying in the crater he fell in after Harbinger blew the crap out of Hammer squad...

Yeah...to what end is not terribly clear, unless it's somehow an inroad for the Reapers to seal the deal with Shepard and crew during the battle for London.

[rogueagent6]

Polat995 wrote...

Well, Paul Grayson in book become more susceptible the Reaper indoctrination because of Red Sand. Could stress make us like him?

If you listen to the test results in sanctuary they do talk about using red sand initially, but switch to adrenaline and it alien equivalent because it works much better.

How often do you think you are under adrenaline's affects throughout the series?

Food for thought...

[Polat995]

Leiha wrote...

Alright guys, I've collected my thoughts after entering full rage mode from the crappy ending.
For me, there are three obvious "signs" that it's a hallucation.

1. In my playthrough, I brought Garrus with me for the final battle. He walked off the ship there in the end.. How did he get there? I'd say from you enter the portal/beam till you finish there's a time gap of about 10 minutes or so. I don't think Joker would've had enough time to swoop down to rescue Garrus.
(Would anyone mind checking if you always see someone from your squad in the final battle exit the Normandy? It was the case with both of my playthroughs)

As for the other two.. I forgot them while writing this reply. Dang.

Oh yeah, 2. The only ending where Shepard wakes up again is from the destroy ending. The Citadel would've been no more. How exactly did Shep survive the destruction of the Citadel?

Maybe I'm just rambling.

I brought Ashley and Liara to the last mission... Well, Ashley came out of Normandy when it crash land...

[humes spork]

lookingglassmind wrote...

Hmm. I'm trying to think what some of the crew responses to EDI were when she first arrived in ME2, and when she put herself into Dr. Eva's body in ME3... wonder if there is anything hinted at in the dialogue there about this.

I don't think there was anything suspicious regarding EDI, but on the other hand when she took over Eva's body and got to the point she was personally interacting with the crew she was acting really oddly with Shepard, with her nonstop probing questions.

Though on the other hand, if there's an Indoctrination device onboard the Normandy, surely to god EDI would have been able to detect infrasonic transmissions on the ship.

[lookingglassmind]

rogueagent6 wrote...

If you listen to the test results in sanctuary they do talk about using red sand initially, but switch to adrenaline and it alien equivalent because it works much better.

How often do you think you are under adrenaline's affects throughout the series?

Food for thought...

Yes! And especially at the end, where there is a direct threat to Shepard's life -- s/he has bodily injuries that look close to fatal. Imagine the stress hormones that must be pumping just to keep his/her vital signs stable enough to get him to Harbinger... a whole bunch of adrenaline.

[humes spork]

rogueagent6 wrote...

How often do you think you are under adrenaline's affects throughout the series?

Every power cooldown.