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[Rifneno]

thePredator50 wrote...

And we're sure his eyes don't change during the Destroy ending?

Secondly, it was my understanding that TIMs eyes were like that due to technological implants, ever since the start of ME2 they looked like that. I honestly doubt he was indoctrinated back then.

No, we don't see his eyes in the destroy ending.  His back is facing us as he shoots the machine, then it blows up and engulfs him in flame.

As for TIM, he's been moderately indoctrinated since the First Contact War where he was exposed to a Reaper artifact while fighting turians.  It only got way out of hand when the Reapers invaded.  Similar to Rana Thanopsis, who was slightly indoctrinated on Saren's lab in Virmire but only went crazy when the Reapers invaded.

[balance5050]

smah wrote...

smah wrote...

 I'm really hoping this theory to be true, but my practical sense tells me Bioware/EA just goofed. All these points brought up are extremely valid though, which is why I somewhat believe this to be possible. Just playing devil's advocate, but I have to point out possibilities for why the breath scene is not indicative of the whole thing being hallucinations/indoctrination as well as some other objections.

1) Destroy only eradicates synthetics and Shep is only PARTIALLY synthetic. It's not impossible that he's barely holding onto his life briefly without his synths, like someone who's pacemaker failed or something? And we don't even know WHICH part of him is synth other than part of his spine, his eyes, and some bones.

2) In the other two choices, Shep's body is completely disintegrated, so of course there can't POSSIBLY be a scene with him breathing. Again, this is only if we take the endings at face value.

3) Shepard looking "huskified" in the control and synthsis could be explained by the fact that he is, again, partly synthetic, and the disintegration of his body is revealing those synthetic partswhich were there all along.

4) Why, if Shep never left London, do we not hear gunfire. If he never made it to the Citadel, then the Allied forces would still be fighting the reapers. (Harby's blast possibly messed up hearing temporarily)

5) Again, if we take endings at face value, it's an unlikely possibility, but a possibility nontheless, that either the Citadel or the Crucible strcutures shielded him from burning up in the atmosphere. 

All of these points are things that I though of in opposition to points brought up in this thread. Please, don't flame as I do wish the Indoctrination theory to be correct and I'm just playing devil's advocate, but these are just some possible counter arguments. If anybody could respond to these that would be great.

Y U NO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS?! 
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) 

Look at the OP, we have already taken it at face value an it doesn't make sense, thats why we are looking at it beyond face value.

His eyes have always glowed red from the synthetics, the only other things with glowing blue aye are husks and Saren.

[savionen]

JFedora wrote...

Rifneno wrote...


Hopefully this helps convince someone that doesn't believe the eye evidence, which I personally consider to be the strongest evidence of the indoctrination theory.

I'm a little iffy on the eye evidence, because there's absolutely nothing to suggest that TIM was indoctrinated during ME2. In fact, if you watch all the videos in the Cerberus base before facing him, you actually see the doctor and him talking just before he gets his reaper implants, suggesting that he is only indoctrinated afterwards. So I think his eyes are simply normal, human implants which he got because he's the freaking illusive man and he wanted to. Moreover, just because Shepard's eyes look like his doesn't necessarily prove anything either - maybe that's just how eye implants look, or maybe the developers just didn't want to create an entirely new design for Shepard's eyes that are only going to be vaguely visible for a few seconds.

As stated above, at least based upon lore he was indoctrinated before ME2.

[Simodon]

every day more information... this thread is really amazing

[TheMadBlimper]

Here's the bottom line: either Bioware purposefully executed the ending as such that it plays out like this theory suggests, or Bioware has an unprecedented chance at redeeming Mass Effect and changing it into one of the single greatest cinematic masterpieces of all time. Either way, things are looking up from this vantage point. Now we need only wait to see what they do about all this.

[Pathero]

And we're sure his eyes don't change during the Destroy ending?

Secondly, it was my understanding that TIMs eyes were like that due to technological implants, ever since the start of ME2 they looked like that. I honestly doubt he was indoctrinated back then.

I think it is in one of the books, he is definaitly indoctrinated.

[ArkkAngel007]

IndelibleJester wrote...

thePredator50 wrote...

Traderjoeeeee wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I know the subject of the eyes has been brought up a lot.  But I've talked to quite a few people who don't see it, or don't think they're really what we think they are.  So I got some screenshots and when necessary magnified them so you can see them better.


That's the Illusive Man's eye in ME2. Note the pattern: an inner circle, an outer circle, and two orb shapes on the bottom left and right.


This is Saren's eye in ME1 right before he ragequits existence. It's different, but similar in a way. A large glowing center, an inner ring, a much smaller outer ring, and some wavy designs coming out of them.


This is Shepard's eye right after his face turned black in the control ending. This is the exact same pattern as the Illusive Man's. The only difference is the color. Which is similar to Saren's. I'll also note that the rest of the scene he seemed to be in immense pain as he's gripping the handles. After he turns like this, he simply looks deadpan and emotionless.


This is Shepard's eye during the synthesis ending. He's further from the camera and a lot of the time it's distorted by the green pulses, but this is still a clear enough shot to tell, without a doubt, that he has the same eyes here as in control.

Hopefully this helps convince someone that doesn't believe the eye evidence, which I personally consider to be the strongest evidence of the indoctrination theory.

Bravo rif!

And we're sure his eyes don't change during the Destroy ending?

Secondly, it was my understanding that TIMs eyes were like that due to technological implants, ever since the start of ME2 they looked like that. I honestly doubt he was indoctrinated back then.

TIM was indoctrinated at the same time as Saren according to the comics/books.

Uh...when and how?  Saren didn't have direct contact with the object that was brought to Palaven, but Harper did.  Saren was indoctrinated by Sovereign during the years between finding Sovereign and his attack on Eden Prime.

[Pyewacket]

Mr. Mistake wrote...

With the endings, it's like having to choose between an apple pie, a lemon pie and a dirt pie.

If you eat the dirt pie no one is going to respect you.
If you eat the lemon pie all your friends go to jail and you uninvent the wheel.
If you eat the apple pie you die, but you get an awesome collection of GI Joes.

GI Joes?  Why it's hardly a choice at all!

[Rahabzu]

JFedora wrote...

Rifneno wrote...


Hopefully this helps convince someone that doesn't believe the eye evidence, which I personally consider to be the strongest evidence of the indoctrination theory.

I'm a little iffy on the eye evidence, because there's absolutely nothing to suggest that TIM was indoctrinated during ME2. In fact, if you watch all the videos in the Cerberus base before facing him, you actually see the doctor and him talking just before he gets his reaper implants, suggesting that he is only indoctrinated afterwards. So I think his eyes are simply normal, human implants which he got because he's the freaking illusive man and he wanted to. Moreover, just because Shepard's eyes look like his doesn't necessarily prove anything either - maybe that's just how eye implants look, or maybe the developers just didn't want to create an entirely new design for Shepard's eyes that are only going to be vaguely visible for a few seconds.

They're not implants, they appear because of choosing those endings.

[blooregard]

Abdul_777 wrote...

guys,i dont know if its a bug or not but i alt tabbed to check something (related to a gfx bug i had) at the part where youre talking with the prothean VI at cerberus base,after tim goes away stating you shouldnt overstay your welcome.
When i came back,there was no music and theres constant speaking in the background,it sounds like speech being rewinded from different people,maybe a stretch but i can hear some words with similar tone to harbringer also,anyhow feel free to check it yourselves,just let it idle at a choice

if this is true it may prove that shepard was already in the process of being indoctronated by the time he got to the cerberus base after all TIM did have the prothean VI hacked so he could get the information perhaps shepard was reaching the noticable levels of indoctronation by that point but the prothean VI's indoctronation sensor was disabled and thus couldn't tell he was indoctronated

[krystalevenstar]

Wow! The eye thing is blowing my mind. Anything else major in the last 100 or so pages since last night?

[panamakira]

LenabotSE wrote...

Look, guys, I very much believe in the theory, but it's not a good thing to get really defensive if someone take a more pessimistic stance about the endings. They are not obligated to write a whole thesis with evidence and extensive counter-arguments. Again, I believe the theory, but it's good to not get your hopes up for this.

Taking the endings at face value is a very rational approach to the situation, as something like the indoc. theory has - as far as I can recall - never really been done before, and especially not in a blockbuster title. It makes a lot of sense, but even in the best of circumstances, there's only a small chance of this being true. Significantly less chance of there being DLC/extra content in the near future, though the missing disc data does have me curious.

Just don't treat the theory as an IV that's keeping you alive. Be kind, no growling.

Agreed. I feel strongly about this theory too but even if there are people disagreeing on the thread or the intentions of it it's still  a public thread and we shouldn't get too defensive about it because we don't even know if what we're discussing is right and just giving BW waaay too much credit. For all we know they'll leave it as it is and move with other DLC or projects not related to the endings.

[IndelibleJester]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

IndelibleJester wrote...

thePredator50 wrote...

Traderjoeeeee wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I know the subject of the eyes has been brought up a lot.  But I've talked to quite a few people who don't see it, or don't think they're really what we think they are.  So I got some screenshots and when necessary magnified them so you can see them better.


That's the Illusive Man's eye in ME2. Note the pattern: an inner circle, an outer circle, and two orb shapes on the bottom left and right.


This is Saren's eye in ME1 right before he ragequits existence. It's different, but similar in a way. A large glowing center, an inner ring, a much smaller outer ring, and some wavy designs coming out of them.


This is Shepard's eye right after his face turned black in the control ending. This is the exact same pattern as the Illusive Man's. The only difference is the color. Which is similar to Saren's. I'll also note that the rest of the scene he seemed to be in immense pain as he's gripping the handles. After he turns like this, he simply looks deadpan and emotionless.


This is Shepard's eye during the synthesis ending. He's further from the camera and a lot of the time it's distorted by the green pulses, but this is still a clear enough shot to tell, without a doubt, that he has the same eyes here as in control.

Hopefully this helps convince someone that doesn't believe the eye evidence, which I personally consider to be the strongest evidence of the indoctrination theory.

Bravo rif!

And we're sure his eyes don't change during the Destroy ending?

Secondly, it was my understanding that TIMs eyes were like that due to technological implants, ever since the start of ME2 they looked like that. I honestly doubt he was indoctrinated back then.

TIM was indoctrinated at the same time as Saren according to the comics/books.

Uh...when and how?  Saren didn't have direct contact with the object that was brought to Palaven, but Harper did.  Saren was indoctrinated by Sovereign during the years between finding Sovereign and his attack on Eden Prime.

You don't have to have direct contact to be indoctrinated, I doubt the guards in the arrival base all touched the reaper artifact and went ooo shiny. Them being in the same room was likely enough, and I know Saren's brother was indoctrinated, too.

[Mr. Mistake]

blooregard wrote...

Mr. Mistake wrote...

With the endings, it's like having to choose between an apple pie, a lemon pie and a dirt pie.

If you eat the dirt pie no one is going to respect you.
If you eat the lemon pie all your friends go to jail and you uninvent the wheel.
If you eat the apple pie you die, but you get an awesome collection of GI Joes.

I don't understand your suggestions

With the endings, it's like having to choose between an apple pie, a lemon pie and a dirt pie.

If you eat the dirt pie no one is going to respect you. (Synthesis)
If you eat the lemon pie all your friends go to jail and you uninvent the wheel. (Destruction)
If you eat the apple pie you die, but you get an awesome collection of GI Joes. (Control)

I hope it's clear now.

[Rip504]

Renegade Shepard has red eyes,guess that means Renegades are indoctrinated...
It is the synthetic implants from the Lazarus project. IMO

[Golferguy758]

well, it's almost 10 AM on the 14th for japan, so world wide release is almost here.

[Pathero]

krystalevenstar wrote...

Wow! The eye thing is blowing my mind. Anything else major in the last 100 or so pages since last night?

Why don't you go and look...

Just kidding, by the time you go through the 100 odd posts it'll be another 100 to go through!.  This thread is going CRAZY!

Major thing has been the eyes (TOP MARKS TO THAT MAN!)  and @masseffect posting some seriosuly teasing tweets

Modifié par Pathero, 14 mars 2012 - 12:43 .

[Rifneno]

JFedora wrote...

I'm a little iffy on the eye evidence, because there's absolutely nothing to suggest that TIM was indoctrinated during ME2. In fact, if you watch all the videos in the Cerberus base before facing him, you actually see the doctor and him talking just before he gets his reaper implants, suggesting that he is only indoctrinated afterwards. So I think his eyes are simply normal, human implants which he got because he's the freaking illusive man and he wanted to. Moreover, just because Shepard's eyes look like his doesn't necessarily prove anything either - maybe that's just how eye implants look, or maybe the developers just didn't want to create an entirely new design for Shepard's eyes that are only going to be vaguely visible for a few seconds.

The books indicate he was indoctrinated for years, as mentioned.  But the latter argument makes me rofl.  They didn't want to create an entirely new design for Shepard's eyes?  Then why did they give them to him at all?  I had to go frame-by-frame from a 1080 recording to find very evidence of the eye pattern at all.  You think they went to the trouble of giving him implants for that very brief window and then decided to be lazy and use an old model?  Nonsense.

[Rahabzu]

Rip504 wrote...

Renegade Shepard has red eyes,guess that means Renegades are indoctrinated...
It is the synthetic implants from the Lazarus project. IMO

Why do they appear as blue during the control and synthesis endings?

[prizm123]

i need to know something..... i remember Anderson saying something about the Reapers were planning something big in London, it was also the first place they attacked..... why is that?

i don't think the endings are actual endings now.... and that they were all just indoctrinations and breaking the indoctrination....no, the whole London thing was just left dangling, we don't know why they were all going there...

[balance5050]

Rip504 wrote...

Renegade Shepard has red eyes,guess that means Renegades are indoctrinated...
It is the synthetic implants from the Lazarus project. IMO

Red eyes have nothing to do with this theory, it's the blue eyes man... the blue eyes.

[BlackDragonBane]

In case others have missed it, if you are tired of all the fighting that has infected this thread, several of us are migrating over to a more neutral and controlled environment for TRUE discussion and debate.

If you'd like to continue participating and avoid all the drama that is slowly eating away at this thread, PM me and I will direct you to where we are relocating and continuing byne's work.

[Rip504]

Rahabzu wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

Renegade Shepard has red eyes,guess that means Renegades are indoctrinated...
It is the synthetic implants from the Lazarus project. IMO

Why do they appear as blue during the control and synthesis endings?

Ask Bioware. Maybe they are shutting down etc.

[Asakawa]

Larkas Galanodel asked me to post this:

"Don't know if it was mentioned before, but have you guys noticed that the ending, the place where you make the ultimate choice, is like a giant "choice wheel" when viewed from above? What's more, and this support the theories here presented, the "Renegade"/Destroy choice is at where Paragon choices would usually be, and vice versa! If this was intended, aside from being a great design choice, it would be an awesome metalanguage example! And, after being presented to so many other choice wheels, it only begs asking: what happens after this choice? "

[Reptilian Rob]

I truly feel like I'm indoctrinated right now, going between cynicism and hope. I don't think my mind is my own right now. If by some miracle long shot that was Biowares plan, simply amazing.