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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#9851
MysticFred

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Icinix wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Supposedly the reason the Catalyst, as it calls itself, can't take action is supposedly that the Crucible is causing interference. That's what it states in the script anyways.


..which maybe is the only thing the Crucible needs to do...

Without Reapers being controlled, communicated by a central source, they can be divided and conquered like any foe, they might lose control of their husks and other abominations.

The indoctrination scene could be the one last attempt at getting control of Shep.


That actually makes a lot of sense, Crucible as a jamming device.

#9852
Kashiin

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About the indoctrination: Indeed Javik can sense a lot of thing, but Shepard is rebuilt from (almost) scratch and have synthetic implant in him. I'm not sure Javik can sense Shepard like he could do with most biological life. That would explain why Javik doesn't sense the indoctrination process in Shepard. We also know that TIM have an synthetic implant in him (one of the journal entries in TIM base) which was suppose to allow him to control the reapers. Maybe Shepard have one too in his brain (when 100% renegade, he does look like a cyborg so why not? Shepard was supposed to play a part in TIM plan after all). The cerberus's soldiers are brain washed and they look kinda familiar to the 100% R Shepard when you think about it.

#9853
FLYING GRENADE11

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Golferguy758 wrote...

I'm desperately trying to hold onto hope, but I just feel taxed by it. really hope that my faith isn't misplaced.

And this is coming form one of the hardcore defenders of this theory, too. hah.

All is right my child.

#9854
TheGoddess0fWar

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NeoMan5 wrote...

TheGoddess0fWar wrote...

From the codex:

"Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind"

1. James comments on a hum when you speak to him asking "Is it just me?"
2. Ghostly presences as well as voices are seen/heard in Shepard's dreams
3. The same trees from Shepard's dreams are seen when they get up after being blasted by Harbinger and going towards the Crucible

Based on this, I'm all for the Hallucation/Indoctrination theory.


Those trees are there on the approach as well and don't just "show up" after you get blown away.


Um no they are not

Modifié par TheGoddess0fWar, 14 mars 2012 - 03:24 .


#9855
JFedora

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ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Wow this thread turned into a mess, didn't it?

The Stargazer scene is the only one that blocks this theory. At that point, the Shepard lives scene has already played out. Therefore, it is assumed that no matter what happens, this scene will play out. Obviously, if Shepard dies or is assimilated, this wouldn't be the case.

Supposedly the reason the Catalyst, as it calls itself, can't take action is supposedly that the Crucible is causing interference. That's what it states in the script anyways.

Now, I see lazy writing thrown around a lot. Sorry, no pun intended, that is one of the laziest excuses I've heard from fans. They don't know what goes on in the board room, or through that writing process. If this happens to be true, it's the exact opposite of lazy writing; it's one of the most brilliant and ballsy moves in the industry.

However, the marketing aspect is a disaster still if this proves true and is offered as as paid DLC. This is a part of the narrative of ME3, the conclusion of that narrative, and that should have been retained within the full narrative arc. Telling people to pay more for the real final battle for Earth is just asking for a permanent shun.


I agree entirely - but you're making the assumption that I've seen constantly in arguments in these forums: why does it have to be paid DLC? There is such thing as FREE DLC.

On top of that, i've heard (so far) unconfirmed rumours that the console disks have something like 6GB more data on them than the PC version. The DLC for consoles might just be unlocking the hidden parts already on the disk, which were taken off the PC version to prevent anyone from unlocking them early.  I admit I know next to nothing about how the technical stuff works, and I'll repeat that these are unconfirmed rumours - but it does make you think.

#9856
ArkkAngel007

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Sajuro wrote...

NightAntilli wrote...

If you wait long enough at the end without making a choice, you'll eventually get a mission failure screen saying the crucible has been destroyed, so, I doubt it's indoctrination.

Think of it like this, if you break out of indoctrination then that sends a shock up Harbinger's spine and that is translated to the rest of the Reapers since he is the leader and that'll give the Alliance some extra time so Shepard can get to da beam and open the Citadel arm for real so they can dock that badboy.


In other words, the Crucible is under threat of attack back in reality, as it is now in the system and awaiting Hammer to open the arms.

#9857
Noob451

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was doing some school work, did i miss anything important, lots of pages since i left...

#9858
BlackDragonBane

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for all the serious theroists in this thread, if you'd like to continue discussion without all the drama and fan-bashing, many of us have migrated over to a more neutral and controlled environment to carrying on our discussions as well as start new ones. If you're interested, PM me and I will direct you to our new home.

#9859
LenabotSE

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Good thing to see the vent scene again. The "Reaper growl" isn't just background noise -- it happens at a very defined spot when Shepard's attention is drawn away.  And it isn't made to sound like it's coming from "outside" off one particular speaker.  It's enveloped around you.

Modifié par LenabotSE, 14 mars 2012 - 03:27 .


#9860
panamakira

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Golferguy758 wrote...

Okay, one more thing to point out about the kid at the start. I'm convinced he's a ninja as well. After Anderson goes through the door that Shepard is holding open and is now alone the only reason Shepard turns back is because of the sound of metal bending (kid crawling in the duct). This is important because there is not a single sound of the kid actually leaving the duct when Anderson calls for Shepard.

The "kid" made a hell of a lot of noise getting Shepard's attention, but turns into an assassin of the night when he leaves? yea, I know sound designers. They don't mess things like that up accidentally.


Yep! This bugged me too. First time I played the demo it was kinda suspicious, but I knew there was something "supernatural" going on for sure with that kid when at the end of the intro he's by himself all the way down there by the shuttle. Not one adult picks him or helps him get into the one leaving? Sorry, everybody no matter what type of emergency, you're always looking out for children, etc.....

Modifié par panamakira, 14 mars 2012 - 03:27 .


#9861
ShepGep

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I like the idea of Shepard breaking free of indoctrination in the hallucination while still back on Earth but...what's with the weird old-man/kid dialogue at the end of the credits? Also...what happened to the rest of the crew and galaxy then? There's absolutely 0 closure.

#9862
slyko227

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TheGoddess0fWar wrote...

NeoMan5 wrote...

TheGoddess0fWar wrote...

From the codex:

"Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind"

1. James comments on a hum when you speak to him asking "Is it just me?"
2. Ghostly presences as well as voices are seen/heard in Shepard's dreams
3. The same trees from Shepard's dreams are seen when they get up after being blasted by Harbinger and going towards the Crucible

Based on this, I'm all for the Hallucation/Indoctrination theory.


Those trees are there on the approach as well and don't just "show up" after you get blown away.


Um no they are not

the trees are there they just move from the right side of the hill when runing, to the left side in the "dream"

#9863
Fledgey

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TheGoddess0fWar wrote...

NeoMan5 wrote...

TheGoddess0fWar wrote...

From the codex:

"Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind"

1. James comments on a hum when you speak to him asking "Is it just me?"
2. Ghostly presences as well as voices are seen/heard in Shepard's dreams
3. The same trees from Shepard's dreams are seen when they get up after being blasted by Harbinger and going towards the Crucible

Based on this, I'm all for the Hallucation/Indoctrination theory.


Those trees are there on the approach as well and don't just "show up" after you get blown away.


Um no they are not

There's some over there on the right side, but that's not the side they're on after you get hit.

#9864
kent80082006

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I really should stop looking at this thread, I don't know what's real anymore, I think I'm just one step away from the funny farm :o

Modifié par kent80082006, 14 mars 2012 - 03:28 .


#9865
Repossessor

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TheGoddess0fWar wrote...

NeoMan5 wrote...

TheGoddess0fWar wrote...

From the codex:

"Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind"

1. James comments on a hum when you speak to him asking "Is it just me?"
2. Ghostly presences as well as voices are seen/heard in Shepard's dreams
3. The same trees from Shepard's dreams are seen when they get up after being blasted by Harbinger and going towards the Crucible

Based on this, I'm all for the Hallucation/Indoctrination theory.


Those trees are there on the approach as well and don't just "show up" after you get blown away.


Um no they are not


Yes there are, 51 seconds, before getting blown away.

#9866
Neuthung

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TheGoddess0fWar wrote...

NeoMan5 wrote...

TheGoddess0fWar wrote...

From the codex:

"Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind"

1. James comments on a hum when you speak to him asking "Is it just me?"
2. Ghostly presences as well as voices are seen/heard in Shepard's dreams
3. The same trees from Shepard's dreams are seen when they get up after being blasted by Harbinger and going towards the Crucible

Based on this, I'm all for the Hallucation/Indoctrination theory.


Those trees are there on the approach as well and don't just "show up" after you get blown away.


Um no they are not


<3

#9867
NeoMan5

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TheGoddess0fWar wrote...

NeoMan5 wrote...

TheGoddess0fWar wrote...

From the codex:

"Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately, the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind"

1. James comments on a hum when you speak to him asking "Is it just me?"
2. Ghostly presences as well as voices are seen/heard in Shepard's dreams
3. The same trees from Shepard's dreams are seen when they get up after being blasted by Harbinger and going towards the Crucible

Based on this, I'm all for the Hallucation/Indoctrination theory.


Those trees are there on the approach as well and don't just "show up" after you get blown away.


Um no they are not


Yes, they are:
http://oi40.tinypic.com/2nib18o.jpg

#9868
comanche warior

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I agree the state of mind that shepards in isnt right especially with the voices.

#9869
NightAntilli

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Sajuro wrote...

NightAntilli wrote...

If you wait long enough at the end without making a choice, you'll eventually get a mission failure screen saying the crucible has been destroyed, so, I doubt it's indoctrination.

Think of it like this, if you break out of indoctrination then that sends a shock up Harbinger's spine and that is translated to the rest of the Reapers since he is the leader and that'll give the Alliance some extra time so Shepard can get to da beam and open the Citadel arm for real so they can dock that badboy.

I'm talking about when you need to make a choice, not when you just woke up after being blasted. In other words, the scene with the Catalyst presenting itself as the kid.

Modifié par NightAntilli, 14 mars 2012 - 03:30 .


#9870
Super G

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I don't know if this has already been raised but I'm going to mention it anyway.
The 2 endings where Shep dies would make it impossible for DLC to make any logical sense involving Shepard as he is dead unless of course this was a figment of imagination too...
Which then means the only way you can play the DLC is if you chose to "destroy" which leaves a huge gap in the thousands of players who did not chose this option.
So for me the idea of follow on content is very unlikely.
Rather it just seems the writers didn't do a very good job of wrapping things up.

#9871
ArkkAngel007

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JFedora wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Wow this thread turned into a mess, didn't it?

The Stargazer scene is the only one that blocks this theory. At that point, the Shepard lives scene has already played out. Therefore, it is assumed that no matter what happens, this scene will play out. Obviously, if Shepard dies or is assimilated, this wouldn't be the case.

Supposedly the reason the Catalyst, as it calls itself, can't take action is supposedly that the Crucible is causing interference. That's what it states in the script anyways.

Now, I see lazy writing thrown around a lot. Sorry, no pun intended, that is one of the laziest excuses I've heard from fans. They don't know what goes on in the board room, or through that writing process. If this happens to be true, it's the exact opposite of lazy writing; it's one of the most brilliant and ballsy moves in the industry.

However, the marketing aspect is a disaster still if this proves true and is offered as as paid DLC. This is a part of the narrative of ME3, the conclusion of that narrative, and that should have been retained within the full narrative arc. Telling people to pay more for the real final battle for Earth is just asking for a permanent shun.


I agree entirely - but you're making the assumption that I've seen constantly in arguments in these forums: why does it have to be paid DLC? There is such thing as FREE DLC.

On top of that, i've heard (so far) unconfirmed rumours that the console disks have something like 6GB more data on them than the PC version. The DLC for consoles might just be unlocking the hidden parts already on the disk, which were taken off the PC version to prevent anyone from unlocking them early.  I admit I know next to nothing about how the technical stuff works, and I'll repeat that these are unconfirmed rumours - but it does make you think.


I said IF it is offered as paid DLC.  I hope for their sake that it's free.  Honestly, I'd pay if the process it was developed is justifiable, but I don't think it is.  And I doubt even in that case if many owners of the game would be willing to pay without any major backlash that would be fully justified.

I don't own a console version, and have only dipped into the PC one.  Will see if a friend will allow me to dive into their 360 copy to confirm, but I doubt I'll get that chance any time soon...at least to where it will still matter.

#9872
N3vDawg

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Has anyone wondered why the painting on the gun is orange? I thought the m-6(?) was red... WIsh I could examine the 3d model.

#9873
Ravax

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Hey, Casey gave a response regarding the endings:

Check this thread:

http://social.biowar...5/index/9900809

#9874
balance5050

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Super G wrote...

I don't know if this has already been raised but I'm going to mention it anyway.
The 2 endings where Shep dies would make it impossible for DLC to make any logical sense involving Shepard as he is dead unless of course this was a figment of imagination too...
Which then means the only way you can play the DLC is if you chose to "destroy" which leaves a huge gap in the thousands of players who did not chose this option.
So for me the idea of follow on content is very unlikely.
Rather it just seems the writers didn't do a very good job of wrapping things up.


Theres a quicksave right before the end, if they get indoctrinated the first time they can just reload and make the "right" choice.

#9875
acManic

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Yeah I actually saw the trees too, replaying the last hour or two. But they seem in a different location after getting blasted. Not to mention basically all the stuff surrounding the trees is gone (presumably from the blast) but the trees are still there? Some pretty tough trees...