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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#9951
Golferguy758

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Sharkey1337 wrote...

AlphaDormante wrote...

I just noticed this right now...don't know if anyone's mentioned this already or if it's been explained, but I thought I'd bring it up.

So you know that oddly colorful rubble that's littered around the Makos near the beam?



Yeah, that crap looks weird. PC, I'm ashamed of you and those textures.

...hey, wait a minute.



Are those BODIES?

Yes. As you can clearly see, there are faces, torsos, and legs in that pile of low-res polygons. Now, why it's so low-res I don't know; that might really be an issue with my computer. But I've never had this level of terrible with any other texture in the game...and you have to admit, seeing it so blurry and awful-looking lends it a very eerie quality.

Besides that, why are there SO MANY? There were absolutely not that many people running for the beam. And even if there were, how did they all end up in neat little piles off to the sides? And, most importantly...

Take a closer look at the bodies pink and purple circles. Look familiar?





...how about now?


Actually, the reason those are there is because the Reapers are using London to harvest human bodies, so all of those are just waiting to be tossed into the beam to be sent to the Citadel.


Actually. 
 

Look at the piles of rocks that the bodies are piled on in the still caps. Look at the piles of rocks in the runnign scene. No bodies. At least i didn't see any

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#9952
blooregard

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ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Wow this thread turned into a mess, didn't it?

The Stargazer scene is the only one that blocks this theory. At that point, the Shepard lives scene has already played out. Therefore, it is assumed that no matter what happens, this scene will play out. Obviously, if Shepard dies or is assimilated, this wouldn't be the case.

Supposedly the reason the Catalyst, as it calls itself, can't take action is supposedly that the Crucible is causing interference. That's what it states in the script anyways.

Now, I see lazy writing thrown around a lot. Sorry, no pun intended, that is one of the laziest excuses I've heard from fans. They don't know what goes on in the board room, or through that writing process. If this happens to be true, it's the exact opposite of lazy writing; it's one of the most brilliant and ballsy moves in the industry.

However, the marketing aspect is a disaster still if this proves true and is offered as as paid DLC. This is a part of the narrative of ME3, the conclusion of that narrative, and that should have been retained within the full narrative arc. Telling people to pay more for the real final battle for Earth is just asking for a permanent shun.




the star gazer scene always struck me as off I mean we have a mountain of evidence that supports the indoctronation theory but buzz ****ing aldrin is blocking this theory I'm grasping at straws on this one for sure but maybe bioware threw that in as a place holder for all 3 endings just to throw off the indoctronation theory supporters

#9953
Fledgey

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Drewskii wrote...

Just FYI,

@JessicaMerizan I get there is a bigger plan, a twist, a retcon coming. But it's not in the game I spent 30 hours with.

@AlexTravaligno it's in there if you look.

Cryptic, I suppose, but that looks like a pretty strong acknowledgment that there is in fact a twist within the ending. /gives you all grains of salt

IE: the ending is what you make of it. Like we've been told. This is disappointing.

#9954
Ona Demonie

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panamakira wrote...

Hamskillet wrote...

Just saw this on Mike Gamble's Twitter Feed: Hardest. Day. Ever. Seriously, if you people knew all the stuff we are planning...you'd, we'll - hold onto your copy of me3 forever.


Ugh.....I support this thread's theory but I don't want to get my hopes up and be dissappointed afterwards. There's something going on. All the tweets from devs are cryptic as hell.

Sounds more like "If you people know all the DLCs we are planning, you'd, we'll - hold onto your copy of me3 forever". 

Kidding. I have faith in them.

#9955
N3vDawg

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camcon2100 wrote...

@JessicaMerizan ... then I want to SEE that he was lying. I want to get up and finish the fight with Commander Shepard. Then retire.

@Xarathos augh. want. to. discuss! Staying spoiler free for now :P

Sounds like she wants to say something

Jessica is starting to become my favorite community manager. I love all the teasing.

#9956
Mallissin

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I'd like to provide a counterpoint to the "Indoctrination" theory. I think the last choice is very literal.

In ME1, our enemy was the Reapers and Geth. We're told the Geth were synthetics that rebelled against their creators and forced them to flee their worlds in fear. The conflict was organic versus synthetic and only option to win seemed to be completely destroying the Reapers (the only ending was the destruction of Sovereign).

In ME2, our enemy was solely the Reapers. We learn more of the sub-plot with the Geth, Tali's father and Xen are trying to find ways to bring them under control. We see hints of the origin of the conflict with Legion, starting to doubt if the Geth are really enemies. The conflict is still organic versus synthetic, but becomes a part of us as wake up to find we are now part synthetic and we are in a sense "losing ourselves" as humans are being kidnapped by the Reapers. We ally ourselves with the Illusive Man with little other choice and whose intentions are unknown for most of the game. Everyone thinks we're under his control, either because we've allied ourselves with him or because of the implants. We never kill a Reaper, aside from the Human Reaper, and the final choice is whether to give TIM more power or not.

But in ME3, we learn we can make peace between the Geth and Quarians, after we learn the truth behind the origins of the conflict. The Quarians could not see a future with the Geth because they feared them too much, but it took your influence to bring an end and bring the two together for a future neither could have imagined. Only you could have made that happen.

Also, keep in mind, all three final choices stop the Reapers, but each change the aftermath.

You can choose to destroy the Reapers, which is Anderson's choice and an analogue for the choice of the first game but also the Quarian/Geth peace options to stop the code update (which ends destroying all Geth).

We can choose to control the Reapers, which is TIM's choice but also an analogue for the choice of the second game and the Quarian's work to try to take the Geth back without destroying them. It's the "conquer without losses" option.

Or we can choose the option never considered with Synthesis, where both organic and synthetic not only live in peace but become equals. It's an option of trust, since we know the Reapers won't be destroyed but they will be affected by you much like Legion's upload to the Geth.

I think the special movie with Shepard waking after the blast was simply added to give completionists something to nibble on while the DLCs are being prepared.

Oh, and I think the old man in the final movie is Joker telling stories to his grandchild (since he and EDI can finally make teh babies after Synthesis).

#9957
Roll Equals Cute

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Stargazer ending.

"Tell me another story about the Shepard"

Maybe an implication to play through NewGame+. Maybe something different happens, or something changes, or just...SOMETHING.

#9958
Amialis666

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MysticFred wrote...

I just re-played the last mission so my little brother could watch it live. (he missed it the first time I did it, but he has watched me play ME2 and 3 entirely, and he's 11 if that matters?)
I chose to destroy the reapers, got the "perfect" ending where Shepard is seen covered by rubble.

What does he tell me after watching all that? "Oh, I think it's all real, it's only missing the part where joker picks shepard up and they try escape the relay explosion, he probably ran out of medi-gel and is in the med-lab recovering that's why he doesn't come out when they land and his companions look happy"
Then right at the beginning of the Stargazer scene, he says "Oh look, they (stargazer and kid) are on the same planet the Normandy landed on, see the two planets on the sky?

I think I read every page on this thread and didn't see anything like this.

Occam's razor, anyone? :mellow:



Except doesn't the cutscene with shepard gasping occur after their crash landing?

#9959
Repossessor

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AlphaDormante wrote...

Sharkey1337 wrote...

Actually, the reason those are there is because the Reapers are using London to harvest human bodies, so all of those are just waiting to be tossed into the beam to be sent to the Citadel.


Ordinarily I might agree with you...but look closer at the pile of bodies. Almost all of them are wearing Ash's and Kaidan's armor.

LenabotSE wrote...

Can you enhance the faces any? They
even look like Kaidan and Ashley zombie-fied. It looks like there's a
difference between the one in the red circle and the one next to the
Phoenix armor.


I don't have the tools for that, I'm afraid; if anyone wants to give it a shot, though, feel more than free.


This was brought up much earlier in this topic.  They used the same Ashley and Kaiden style armor for misc. bodies in the Collector ship in ME2.  There's nothing to be read into there; it's just a pile of bodies.

#9960
ArkkAngel007

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Maybe I should explain why I believe this theory, which I was not aware of until a couple of hours after beating the game and seeing the actual fallout on here with a clear head.

When I read the script, I read the "Perfect Ending" designation on the Synthesis ending. I figured I might as well shoot for it. Sure, things were a bit weird after Harbringer busted me up, but I chalked it up to severe injuries and TIM using Reaper influence to control me. In other words, I was taking everything at face-value while still having a feeling things were off.

Yet, I reach the Guardian, and it starts explaining how it's the Catalyst and that it was pushing the options that, following the TIM fight, I realized were in line with the past two antagonists in the series. Yet, I still pushed on, believing I could do better, and I was taking what I knew from the script at heart and couldn't undo all the good I accomplished in the galaxy to going after only destruction.

When I jumped into that beam though, and Shepard's skin began to burn away and the unsettling glow of Reaper technology made itself present, I realized I made a mistake. Right then and there, in the moment I should feel like I saved the galaxy for the rest of its natural run, I was in despair. I knew what had happened; how I allowed myself to be deceived.

That's why this theory resonates with me. It isn't because I'm clinging to hope for a better ending, or I'm just trying to be in denial. That moment my choice was executed told me that I made a bad decision. And this is the reason behind why I did. Whether it's true or not remains to be seen, but I shouldn't have felt that way in that moment if it was otherwise.

#9961
Vikali

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Amialis666 wrote...

Except doesn't the cutscene with shepard gasping occur after their crash landing?


You're correct.

#9962
panamakira

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Ona Demonie wrote...

panamakira wrote...

Hamskillet wrote...

Just saw this on Mike Gamble's Twitter Feed: Hardest. Day. Ever. Seriously, if you people knew all the stuff we are planning...you'd, we'll - hold onto your copy of me3 forever.


Ugh.....I support this thread's theory but I don't want to get my hopes up and be dissappointed afterwards. There's something going on. All the tweets from devs are cryptic as hell.

Sounds more like "If you people know all the DLCs we are planning, you'd, we'll - hold onto your copy of me3 forever". 

Kidding. I have faith in them.


I want to. I probably do but I'm like in the middle of the bridge not knowing which options is better for my sanity or in this case "indoctrination". To accept the endings as they are or hope that what we're picking up actually MEANS something!

I love the fact I'm not the only delusional fan out there who feel like there's something more going on. Whether is what we want, we'll have to see. When is the release of ME3 in Asia anyway?

#9963
Handren

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https://twitter.com/...777892744564736

This made my heart jump. It's the best evidence YET. Even better it corroborates the "hardest day ever" one!

#9964
ArkkAngel007

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Amialis666 wrote...

MysticFred wrote...

I just re-played the last mission so my little brother could watch it live. (he missed it the first time I did it, but he has watched me play ME2 and 3 entirely, and he's 11 if that matters?)
I chose to destroy the reapers, got the "perfect" ending where Shepard is seen covered by rubble.

What does he tell me after watching all that? "Oh, I think it's all real, it's only missing the part where joker picks shepard up and they try escape the relay explosion, he probably ran out of medi-gel and is in the med-lab recovering that's why he doesn't come out when they land and his companions look happy"
Then right at the beginning of the Stargazer scene, he says "Oh look, they (stargazer and kid) are on the same planet the Normandy landed on, see the two planets on the sky?

I think I read every page on this thread and didn't see anything like this.

Occam's razor, anyone? :mellow:



Except doesn't the cutscene with shepard gasping occur after their crash landing?


Yes, but still before the credits.  The Stargazer scene is after the credits.

#9965
Teh Tux

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In reguards to the Stargazer scene; It is meaningless. In my opnion.
If the indoctronation theory is true, it can still happen. Someone on a planet somwhere in the galaxy is talking about shepard's exploits.
If its false, then it would be exactly the same.

I think the stargazer scene is being looked into far too much.

Kind of ironic im saying that though, especially due to the nature of the thread... <____<

#9966
squee365

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Wow almost 400 pages. I'm loving all these revelations.

Modifié par squee365, 14 mars 2012 - 04:16 .


#9967
AlphaDormante

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Repossessor wrote...

This was brought up much earlier in this topic.  They used the same Ashley and Kaiden style armor for misc. bodies in the Collector ship in ME2.  There's nothing to be read into there; it's just a pile of bodies.


I disagree. As someone showed above in a video, the bodies weren't there before the beam hit. Even besides that, the implication that it's meaningful is meant as a supplement to the rest of the evidence here, not to stand on its own.

#9968
Turtlicious

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How do you allow/post images?

#9969
MysticFred

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Amialis666 wrote...

MysticFred wrote...

I just re-played the last mission so my little brother could watch it live. (he missed it the first time I did it, but he has watched me play ME2 and 3 entirely, and he's 11 if that matters?)
I chose to destroy the reapers, got the "perfect" ending where Shepard is seen covered by rubble.

What does he tell me after watching all that? "Oh, I think it's all real, it's only missing the part where joker picks shepard up and they try escape the relay explosion, he probably ran out of medi-gel and is in the med-lab recovering that's why he doesn't come out when they land and his companions look happy"
Then right at the beginning of the Stargazer scene, he says "Oh look, they (stargazer and kid) are on the same planet the Normandy landed on, see the two planets on the sky?

I think I read every page on this thread and didn't see anything like this.

Occam's razor, anyone? :mellow:



Except doesn't the cutscene with shepard gasping occur after their crash landing?


Yup it does. I just typed in exactly what he said. I still believe the ID/hallucination theory fits best.

Modifié par MysticFred, 14 mars 2012 - 04:19 .


#9970
HydeEx1

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While unrelated, the charity drive just broke 20k. Thought you should know.

#9971
Icinix

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I like her little comment regarding someone asking about not being able to question or rebuttal the Guardian...

"I think some people in the community have discussed why that might be"


Sure its not an answer either way - but she could have ignored the question all together.

#9972
blooregard

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Mallissin wrote...

I'd like to provide a counterpoint to the "Indoctrination" theory. I think the last choice is very literal.

In ME1, our enemy was the Reapers and Geth. We're told the Geth were synthetics that rebelled against their creators and forced them to flee their worlds in fear. The conflict was organic versus synthetic and only option to win seemed to be completely destroying the Reapers (the only ending was the destruction of Sovereign).

In ME2, our enemy was solely the Reapers. We learn more of the sub-plot with the Geth, Tali's father and Xen are trying to find ways to bring them under control. We see hints of the origin of the conflict with Legion, starting to doubt if the Geth are really enemies. The conflict is still organic versus synthetic, but becomes a part of us as wake up to find we are now part synthetic and we are in a sense "losing ourselves" as humans are being kidnapped by the Reapers. We ally ourselves with the Illusive Man with little other choice and whose intentions are unknown for most of the game. Everyone thinks we're under his control, either because we've allied ourselves with him or because of the implants. We never kill a Reaper, aside from the Human Reaper, and the final choice is whether to give TIM more power or not.

But in ME3, we learn we can make peace between the Geth and Quarians, after we learn the truth behind the origins of the conflict. The Quarians could not see a future with the Geth because they feared them too much, but it took your influence to bring an end and bring the two together for a future neither could have imagined. Only you could have made that happen.

Also, keep in mind, all three final choices stop the Reapers, but each change the aftermath.

You can choose to destroy the Reapers, which is Anderson's choice and an analogue for the choice of the first game but also the Quarian/Geth peace options to stop the code update (which ends destroying all Geth).

We can choose to control the Reapers, which is TIM's choice but also an analogue for the choice of the second game and the Quarian's work to try to take the Geth back without destroying them. It's the "conquer without losses" option.

Or we can choose the option never considered with Synthesis, where both organic and synthetic not only live in peace but become equals. It's an option of trust, since we know the Reapers won't be destroyed but they will be affected by you much like Legion's upload to the Geth.

I think the special movie with Shepard waking after the blast was simply added to give completionists something to nibble on while the DLCs are being prepared.

Oh, and I think the old man in the final movie is Joker telling stories to his grandchild (since he and EDI can finally make teh babies after Synthesis).




the geth and quarians conflict is a bit different  the geth never attacked the quarians just got scared that they made an AI and chose to attempt to destroy it in short that entire rivalry was really just the quarians being too afraid of the geth to think of anything but murder them

the reapers have been killing anything squishy for the past billion or so years they don't want organtics to understand them nor do they try and understand organtics they simply show up kill them then leave they aren't like the geth at all who have for the most part been observing organtic life peacfully

as to the stargazer scene and that its joker you also have to consider that synthesis is the only ending where EDI and joker could "make teh babies".

ultimately bioware either doesn't realize what they did adding the stargazer scene in or they just did it to watch us suffer

#9973
AlphaDormante

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Turtlicious wrote...

How do you allow/post images?


Write [ img] [/ img] tags without the spaces around the image location (which you can find by right clicking on the image > Copy Image Location). Just make sure you're not posting from imgur, as it doesn't agree with BSN very well.

#9974
Repossessor

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AlphaDormante wrote...

Repossessor wrote...

This was brought up much earlier in this topic.  They used the same Ashley and Kaiden style armor for misc. bodies in the Collector ship in ME2.  There's nothing to be read into there; it's just a pile of bodies.


I disagree. As someone showed above in a video, the bodies weren't there before the beam hit. Even besides that, the implication that it's meaningful is meant as a supplement to the rest of the evidence here, not to stand on its own.


I wasn't takling about whether they were there before or not, just simply that they're the same models used in ME2 of people wearing Ashely and Kaiden's armor --and that should not be read into.

#9975
Auresta

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Just letting everyone know that the trees that are proof of the dream are also there on your run down to the beam.