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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#1051
lookingglassmind

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keginkc wrote...

Practical real-world question: if the end is really a red herring, how will you get to the 'real' end later? You can't save for, what, 20 minutes of the game, and your auto-save will get written over when you re-appear back on the normandy prior to the mission. So where would you start if there's more later? Back just before you beam up to the Citadel, which is where I think the chapter restart sends you? If so, that's going to be frustrating, because you literally cannot skip a second of the game from that point until the credits roll. Maybe you could somehow start from your NG+ save?


To be honest, and practical, I am not certain if any of these theories make it so that there is room for a 'real' ending. I believe that the endings that are there are the real ones. But having a deeper knowledge of their meaning may make way for post-ending DLC that does not negate the endings (augments them in some way).

#1052
DXLelouch15

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are we forgetting our old pal Saren heard whispers when he was being indoctrinated
and guess what Shepard hears in the dream sequences
WHISPERS!!!
DUN DUN DUN

#1053
littleork

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Keep in mind tho, hallucination wont mean that it will be a happy ending, dont get me wrong, i want this hallucination sotry, but god if they make your choice really matter after you wake up and makes u feel that you dying or living really worth it and gives me closure, then i will be the happiest fan ever. As long as they do a good job with that new ending/dlc whaterver it end up being, I will forgive them.

Evil plan bioware but I kinda love it.WAiting for my bf to finish the game to share the idea with him

#1054
GBGriffin

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Ormeriel wrote...

I just reread the indoctrination codex entry.

Indeed it describes exactly the dream and hallucination Shepard has, as well as the pain and headache he seems to have in ME 3.

It would also explain the humming Vega mentions as it is part of the indoctrination process.


I'm actually intrigued by this.

Without going through the thread...could someone possibly tell me at which point the humming is mentioned? I'd like to be on the lookout for indoctrination moments.

#1055
krystalevenstar

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FugitiveMind wrote...

If i recall, the last mission restart save is right before the walk towards the light


Correct. I loaded it 3 times and played it to compare all the choices.

#1056
GHernandez18

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If there isnt a DLC with the real ending, how do they explain the scene after the credits when theres an old man talking with his son/grandson?

Stargazer Child: Can you tell me another story about the Shepard?
Stargazer: It's getting kind of late, but okay.... one more story.

P.S.- I didnt see the Breathing scene after I beat the game. (N7 chest piece) Howd yall unlock that?

#1057
humes spork

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lookingglassmind wrote...

I'm gonna peruse. :) Wonder how many naysayers you had at that time.


Ha. I laid that out over on the Escapist's forums and killed an entire thread dead in its tracks on it. That I can find easily enough.

I wrote...

My perfect ending?The eleventh-hour revelation is that between exposure to Saren and Sovereign, Cerberus having unlimited access to Shepard's body during Project Lazarus, exposure to the Collector base, and exposure to all the other Reapers in ME3, Shepard him/herself has become Indoctrinated as a sleeper agent, was activated during the Reaper invasion, and been subconsciously sabotaging the war effort in very subtle ways from the beginning. Like the infamous Revan plot twist, but way[/b] more insidious.The whole thing comes to a head when Ashley or Kaiden, and/or Shepard's main love interest, is forced to confront them just before the point of no return which triggers the true ending sequence the backdrop of which (and red herring for) is the final battle, based upon whether:

1. (Paragon) Shepard surrenders and removes him/herself from command, breaks out of the Indoctrination thanks in no small part to his/her squadmates, and uses the Reapers' own strategies and tactics against them to advise Hackett, Anderson and the rest of the Council to victory. Who lives and who dies, and how well the battle ultimately goes, depends on Shepard's previous choices in the first two games.

2. (Neutral) Shepard commits suicide to prevent doing any more damage, bookending and completing the parallels developed between Shepard and Saren over the course of the trilogy. The player takes over the part of Kaiden/Ashley or the LI for the final sequence, the outcome of which depends on galactic readiness and Shepard's decisions in the first two games, still leaving Shepard to be the ultimate mover and shaker in the conflict but ultimately a tragic figure.

3. (Renegade) Shepard murders his love interest, Kaiden/Ashley, and sets the Normandy to self-destruct while escaping in a shuttle. Shepard docks with the Councils' flagship (Destiny Ascension or whatever else), assassinates Hackett, Anderson, Udina, and the rest of the Council, and turns the flagship's guns against the rest of the fleet under the auspice that Indoctrinated people have infiltrated the Council fleet (it's super-ironic!). With the fleet in disarray, the Reapers clean house and complete the cycle of extinction. Shepard is rewarded by becoming the dominant personality of the next Reaper and the vanguard of the next cycle, replacing Sovereign.


I wrote...

Why, thanks.The thing is, you could pull some serious Fight Club/MGS2/Silent Hill psychological horror, fourth-wall annihilating mindf*ckery on that and Bioware has the writing chops to pull it off.

Start it out subtle, with a crew member or two acting suspicious and having optional objectives and sub quests that look[/i] like Shepard's doing the right thing but really they're subconsciously helping the Reapers. Something like a side quest that pops out of nowhere involving making sure the Citadel's mainframe is secure. It looks like Shepard's checking it out and making sure, but really they're downloading the Citadel's database and forwarding it to the Reapers.

Over the course of the game, start ramping it up. Clue the player in that one of the Normandy's crew is Indoctrinated, and have the squadmate who will later confront Shepard start acting really suspiciously -- off-log data transmissions and communications, sneaking around the ship, shadowing Shepard, et cetera. It looks like they're secretly helping the Reapers, but they're really keeping an eye on Shepard and attempting to dispel their suspicions.Then, right before the point of no return, the squadmate shows up for "the Bioware cliche pre-ending sequence talk/nookie time"...and pulls a gun on Shepard[/i].

Work the player's expectations, especially the metagame expectations of Bioware titles, against them. And that's where it would get really cool.Because, the player thinks that[/i] character is the Indoctrinated one. They can either trust the NPC and surrender, or attack and kill that NPC which initiates a sequence where the Normandy's crew turns against Shepard, trying to talk him or her down but attempting to kill him/her if they must, and really[/i] pulling the rug out from under the player. Don't even make it anviliciously obvious that Shepard really is[/i] Indoctrinated until s/he's murdered his/her way through at least half the crew.

Shepard can surrender at any time during the dialogue, but if Shepard gets killed by their squad mates and/or Normandy crew the player doesn't get the "critical mission failure" screen, it goes straight into the "Shepard dies" ending -- and that's true from every point on.If Shepard surrenders at any point on the Normandy, it goes into a sequence where the squad tries to break Shepard out of the Indoctrination. That boils down to what squad mates are still alive, who's loyal, and Shepard's mental state up to that point. If Shepard can't break out of the Indoctrination, Shepard either kills him/herself or has to be put down by the crew and queue the "Shepard dies" ending.


Modifié par humes spork, 11 mars 2012 - 05:00 .


#1058
lookingglassmind

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GBGriffin wrote...

Without going through the thread...could someone possibly tell me at which point the humming is mentioned? I'd like to be on the lookout for indoctrination moments.


With Kaidan in ME1, and with Vega in ME3.

#1059
keginkc

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GBGriffin wrote...

Without going through the thread...could someone possibly tell me at which point the humming is mentioned? I'd like to be on the lookout for indoctrination moments.


It's one of the random "I don't have anything more to say" comments that Vega makes in the shuttle bay.  He said it several different times during my playthrough.  I didn't really read anything into it at the time.

#1060
comrade gando

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I'm all on board for a hallucination explanation. Would work perfectly, they could just add the extra content at the end of the "original" ending as to what REALLY happened. The hints are all over the place, stated in other posts as to why it is so dream-like, why we see shepard's ARMORED chest move at the end, he just got hit by harbinger he's waking up. It's so clear now!

#1061
rogueagent6

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GBGriffin wrote...

I'm actually intrigued by this.

Without going through the thread...could someone possibly tell me at which point the humming is mentioned? I'd like to be on the lookout for indoctrination moments.


If I remember correctly it was one of the first times after "dancing" with him. It will be the last statement he makes in the series and is the one he will repeat if you keep pressing him.

#1062
lookingglassmind

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humes spork wrote...

3. (Renegade) Shepard murders his love interest, Kaiden/Ashley, and sets the Normandy to self-destruct while escaping in a shuttle. Shepard docks with the Councils' flagship (Destiny Ascension or whatever else), assassinates Hackett, Anderson, Udina, and the rest of the Council, and turns the flagship's guns against the rest of the fleet under the auspice that Indoctrinated people have infiltrated the Council fleet (it's super-ironic!). With the fleet in disarray, the Reapers clean house and complete the cycle of extinction. Shepard is rewarded by becoming the dominant personality of the next Reaper and the vanguard of the next cycle, replacing Sovereign.


I am a serious fan of your renegade ending. I believe it should be a playable DLC, stat.

#1063
Rheinlandman

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When I read the topic title I thought bullsh*t.

But after reading some of your arguments here I can't deny they have merit. If it is a hallucination as Shepard is dying, maybe the act of Destroy (with Sheps survival) is an act of galvanizing his resolve and refusing to die. Where as Control and Synthesis are two degrees of giving in/accepting his death/defeat.

This also would make Bioware the greatest trolls to ever grace the digital wasteland of the internet.

#1064
Auresta

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rogueagent6 wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

I'm actually intrigued by this.

Without going through the thread...could someone possibly tell me at which point the humming is mentioned? I'd like to be on the lookout for indoctrination moments.


If I remember correctly it was one of the first times after "dancing" with him. It will be the last statement he makes in the series and is the one he will repeat if you keep pressing him.


iirc it was the last statement he made to me before going into the final mission stuff.

#1065
Elenterx

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The only annoying part is the last sequence with the grandpa talking to the grandson or whatever the hell is going on there.

I feel like they legit went with what we saw..I hope not.

#1066
Ahms

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Rheinlandman wrote...

When I read the topic title I thought bullsh*t.

But after reading some of your arguments here I can't deny they have merit. If it is a hallucination as Shepard is dying, maybe the act of Destroy (with Sheps survival) is an act of galvanizing his resolve and refusing to die. Where as Control and Synthesis are two degrees of giving in/accepting his death/defeat.

This also would make Bioware the greatest trolls to ever grace the digital wasteland of the internet.


Which would make them my internet heroes.

#1067
GBGriffin

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rogueagent6 wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

I'm actually intrigued by this.

Without going through the thread...could someone possibly tell me at which point the humming is mentioned? I'd like to be on the lookout for indoctrination moments.


If I remember correctly it was one of the first times after "dancing" with him. It will be the last statement he makes in the series and is the one he will repeat if you keep pressing him.


So, the indoctrination begins that early in the game? Are they even close to the Reapers by this point? What would be indoctrinating them? Just the continued run-ins with the Reapers and it happens over time>

#1068
lookingglassmind

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Ahms wrote...

Which would make them my internet heroes.


Hah! Amen!

#1069
humes spork

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keginkc wrote...

It's one of the random "I don't have anything more to say" comments that Vega makes in the shuttle bay.  He said it several different times during my playthrough.  I didn't really read anything into it at the time.


Hell I did. I immediately came to the conclusion there was an Indoctrination device on the Normandy and spent the better part of an hour going over every explorable inch of that ship trying to find it, thinking it was a breadcrumb to a side quest arc or companion assignment. I played BG1/2, KoTOR, JE, ME1, and DA:O enough times to know that kind of crap is how BioWare rolls. After I didn't find it, I wrote it off as an abandoned plot hook and went about playing the game figuring I hadn't progressed far enough for the Indoctrination device to rear its ugly head as a plothook. After a while I just forgot about it completely.

#1070
lavosslayer

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Elenterx wrote...

The only annoying part is the last sequence with the grandpa talking to the grandson or whatever the hell is going on there.

I feel like they legit went with what we saw..I hope not.


I really think that whole scene is the reaffirmation that what we've seen so far isn't the end of Shepard's story...

#1071
rogueagent6

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Auresta wrote...

iirc it was the last statement he made to me before going into the final mission stuff.


:lol:

In any event, it will be the last statements he makes in one of the conversations you have with him.

:P

#1072
Fat Headed Wolf

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Hmm... This humming thing has me hoping. I do not remember Kaiden in Me1 but I'll take your guy's word for it.

Funny story to liven up the tension. I invited my dad over to my wife and my house to watch me play the ending (he loves ME even though he can't play it due to severe arthritis. He loves watching me play, so, whenever the games came out I'd invite him from across town to see it. Especially endings) I think it's a testament to the strength of the series that he could enjoy it without playing at all (in fact, he was heavily invested).

Anyway, Shep starts the Crucible and gets beamed up. And my dad just says "I don't understand... what the..."

Then we talk to the Star Child/ God and he says, "Why is he... Huh?"

Then I jump into the light and do... something... to combine organics and synthetic, followed by the crashing of Normandy on the planet.

He stands up, says, "What the hell was that?!", grabs a beer from the refrigerator, and drinks it in five seconds.

#1073
GBGriffin

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[quote]Rheinlandman wrote...

When I read the topic title I thought bullsh*t.

But after reading some of your arguments here I can't deny they have merit. If it is a hallucination as Shepard is dying, maybe the act of Destroy (with Sheps survival) is an act of galvanizing his resolve and refusing to die. Where as Control and Synthesis are two degrees of giving in/accepting his death/defeat.

This also would make Bioware the greatest trolls to ever grace the digital wasteland of the internet.[/quote]



[/quote]

I was skeptical too, but now....unlike a lot of the other theories, I can actually see how this *could* work.

#1074
Guest_Captain Brad_*

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I personally think there is something more going on here. Bioware is up to something.....The hallucination seems to be the best explanation. Hope Bioware totally mindblow everyone! Either way the whole game up to that point was epic!!! Just the last bit is just "hmmmm something dosen't feel right"

#1075
Elenterx

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If Bioware just came out with a strong hint that they have been trixy hobbits then I would pop ME3 back in and start playing again.

I just don't have that feel right now :( Ending drained me of all want.