57139 réponses à ce sujet

[NICKjnp]

I say again...he is immune to indoctrination. It was established in ME2. And he isn't controlling Shepard's thoughts...he is controlling his actions. There is a big difference between the two. I dislike the ending like everyone else but this idea that Shepard is indoctrinated goes against stated lore about Shepard.

[Dessalines]

Phobius9 wrote...

Tailen wrote...

TL;DR -- Without the turn that it took and the lack of traditional closure, it never could have had this impact.  It never would have made us feel.

This.

When Thane dies, and my renagade Femshep asks why did the passage state she, and Thane's son states the prayer was for you. That made me feel. I am even reflected that my femshep had push that guy out the window on the mission to recruit Shep. I was not mad about Thane. Artistically, It was amazing.?
When Mordin dies, and he is singing his song. It made me feel. I know I could not story, but I was wondering if I made had told Mordin sooner he could have figured out something to save his life. instead it had to be him.  I am not mad about that choice. Artistically, It was amazing.?
When Kelly chambers died, because I forgot tell her to change her name, and I over hear people talking about how she was shot in the face by cerebus that even made me feel?
When Mirada dies that made me feel. That dam genetic Cerebus cheerleader.
Being able to kill Kei Lang was even better than allowing Alistair to be executed in Dragon Age.
From Kitsume asking if Jacob was back on the Normady, because she would come back for him,and basically all of her cameos, from all the cameos with your team from Mass Effect 2, and being able to talk to all of them that survive before your final battle in Mass Effect 3,  All of those scenes made me feel a little bit.
When you tell Garrus that even in heaven you have his back.....that was a good scene
For me, I am not looking for a happy ending. It just you have so many scenes that are constructed beautifully and then you have this ending that is not.
So, basically we have been Biowared. 

[Syphirr]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Syphirr wrote...

 A user requested I share this with you. A pretty interesting find, I think, fits in with all the 1M1s. OR it's just laziness, reuse of textures.

http://tinypic.com/v...?pic=aaei40&s=5

Uuuuuh.. I don't get it.. where do you see anything interesting on Joker's chair?

there's both a normal and reversed "TX-08" on his chair, the same as on that tech in the picture.

Modifié par Syphirr, 14 mars 2012 - 02:29 .

[Syphirr]

NICKjnp wrote...

I say again...he is immune to indoctrination. It was established in ME2. And he isn't controlling Shepard's thoughts...he is controlling his actions. There is a big difference between the two. I dislike the ending like everyone else but this idea that Shepard is indoctrinated goes against stated lore about Shepard.

Can you give us an actual quote that he is immune? All I can remember is that Harbinger wanted his body because he found it interesting in that Shepard was the instigator of the events that lead to Sovereign's death.

[Earthborn_Shepard]

Syphirr wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Syphirr wrote...

 A user requested I share this with you. A pretty interesting find, I think, fits in with all the 1M1s. OR it's just laziness, reuse of textures.

http://tinypic.com/v...?pic=aaei40&s=5

Uuuuuh.. I don't get it.. where do you see anything interesting on Joker's chair?

there's both a normal and reversed "TX-08" on his chair, the same as on that tech in the picture.

The ****! I don't see anything on his chair

[Elscotto1989]

"In the first one we had Saren. In the second one, we wanted to introduce some mystery into who’s doing what, and that was supposed to be the Illusive Man. In the third game, yeah, I think we’re introducing a clearer target for Shepard, a clearer foil." i see this quote in the game informer interview and i can only think...why is baby jesus so pissed about us breaking his toys...seriously...thats what the ending to me seems to amount too a pissed off godchild making you kill yourself in exchange for his toys...

[ixcruz]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Syphirr wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Syphirr wrote...

 A user requested I share this with you. A pretty interesting find, I think, fits in with all the 1M1s. OR it's just laziness, reuse of textures.

http://tinypic.com/v...?pic=aaei40&s=5

Uuuuuh.. I don't get it.. where do you see anything interesting on Joker's chair?

there's both a normal and reversed "TX-08" on his chair, the same as on that tech in the picture.

The ****! I don't see anything on his chair

 

I didn't at first. Zoom in!

Modifié par ixcruz, 14 mars 2012 - 02:34 .

[ArkkAngel007]

Stated it a bit further back but here:

Shepard, when fully aware of his surroundings and in an uncompromised mental state, is resistant to Reaper indoctrination. This is due to his strong will, driven by his goal in destroying the Reapers. Unlike control or synthesis, Shepard's goal of destroying the Reapers (no compromises, excuses, etc) isn't malleable.

However, when Shepard is asleep, or compromised mentally in some fashion (such as the trauma from Harbringer's attack), indoctrination can take place.

[VonJedi1]

NICKjnp wrote...

I say again...he is immune to indoctrination. It was established in ME2. And he isn't controlling Shepard's thoughts...he is controlling his actions. There is a big difference between the two. I dislike the ending like everyone else but this idea that Shepard is indoctrinated goes against stated lore about Shepard.

Being that nobody really understands the indoctrination process that much, and Liara said it was a possibility, not a certainty that he was immune and only ever speculated as to why they wanted his body. Could just be that he was a fine example of a human being, that he himself is the catalyst and Harbinger knew it, or that he would be an amazingly useful piece on the chess board, especially on his side. To flat out say he is immune to it, without ever giving a proper explaination would be down right stupid story telling.

Speaking of, nobody else found it odd they introduced new facts about EDI in the Cerebrus base? Namely the fact that she was enhanced with "reaper tech recovered from the Citadel" which could only be Sovereign, awfully specific information to introduce that late in the game, being that she is indeed the ship's AI and was unshackled by Joker, which they also made mention of.

[arkhine]

Ravax wrote...
Which book?

I read REVELATION / ASCENSION / RETRIBUTION, and absolutely LOVED all 3 of them... if you are referring to the latest ME book, which was supposed to gap between ME2 and ME3, called DECPTION, that was written by William Deltz.. i didnt read that one, because i was afraid the litterary style difference between the two authors would put me off...

Drew is referring to Revan, not any of the ME series books.

[Smiley556]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Stated it a bit further back but here:

Shepard, when fully aware of his surroundings and in an uncompromised mental state, is resistant to Reaper indoctrination. This is due to his strong will, driven by his goal in destroying the Reapers. Unlike control or synthesis, Shepard's goal of destroying the Reapers (no compromises, excuses, etc) isn't malleable.

However, when Shepard is asleep, or compromised mentally in some fashion (such as the trauma from Harbringer's attack), indoctrination can take place.

Key word is resistant. Immune/resistant, know the difference.

[Broham]

Tailen wrote...

Pelleran wrote...

variobunz wrote...

That's true. BW wanted to create memorable ending that sticks with you.
But the problem is it's not memorable because it's amazing. It's controversy.

True. This is what made me believe in that they have an ace up their sleeves. I just don't get to wrap my head around the fact that Bioware might actually want to be remembered for controversy.

I think it's amazing and controversial.  Why can't it be both?

My opinion is that the ending as it stands now could not have had the desired impact if it was handled any differently.  I have felt very strongly that their intentions were to find a way to make us feel exactly the struggle that Shepard would be feeling.  To face down indoctrination, to make the choice like it was our own, to see that choice play out and actually feel the weight of your decision.

It sounds good on paper -- in fact, it sounds an awful lot like the "signifigance of player choice" mantra we always hear from BioWare with their games -- but has it ever really had this kind of impact?  Has it ever really made you feel?

That being my opinion, I was delighted to bump in to this little tidbit from Casey Hudson:

We end up exploring some spaces that maybe have never been done before. Because interactive storytelling is still kind of new, there are neat things to try. One of the things we’re trying in Mass Effect 3 is the idea that we can let you feel something that is part of that character’s experience versus strictly getting you to react to things that you see and experience. We’re trying to tell a little bit of the story Shepard would feel and seeing if the player feels that as well. You saw that on the Earth mission, and you see it throughout the game. It’s insight into how Shepard feels. I think that’s going to be one of the things people remember.

That came from here: http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=2 

Now, I mentioned above "the ending as it stands now".  He mentions in the quote that there are "neat things to try" because "interactive storytelling is still kind of new".  I really think a big part of that is having the ability to break the mold, and leave a cliffhanger (my word of choice here -- others clearly say "unsatisfying and riddled with plot holes") for a brief period.  Long enough, say, to get crazy amounts of attention and unite their raging fanbase against them.  Bold move.

And then -- via a free DLC, or time-locked content, or a 20 minute cinematic, or whatever means they've had planned all along -- give us the answer we're all waiting for with bated breath.

I love the indoctrination theory.  I fully support it, and it leaves me satisfied with the state of the ending for my Shepard's story.  I would be fine without any further explanation, or even any real confirmation.

However, I think what looks crazy to everyone now is going to end up setting a major precedent in storytelling.  I think they're breaking the mold, and I wouldn't be surprised in the least to have the rest of the ending opened up to us shortly.

TL;DR -- Without the turn that it took and the lack of traditional closure, it never could have had this impact.  It never would have made us feel.

Well sai!

With all the "theories" and "revelations" these last 1-2 days; this is exactly my thoughts. Bioware planned this.

The loopholes and randomness of the ending.
The small hints at the end.
The nagging feeling something isn't quite as it seems throughout the game.
That "seemingly in poor taste" message about continuing Shepard's legend in future DLC at the end...

I think Bioware is knowingly setting a new precedence and making gaming history here

[Hurricane Brad]

NICKjnp wrote...

Shepard is immune to indoctrination. It was the reason why the collectors wanted his body for study (Liara said this in ME2).

Liara said that they wanted his body for study, but I don't recall her saying anything about him being immune to indoctrination.  There's no reason he would be, he's only human.  An exceptional human sure, but that doesn't mean he's immune.  The Illusive Man and Saren were both exceptional individuals, portrayed as both intelligent and powerful.  Both become indoctrinated.

I will repost this since I didn't notice any responses and I think it's a good point in favour of the indoctrination theory:

Shepard has never had to struggle with indoctrination in the series. It seems logical to assume that he would have to face this at some point considering the role he has taken in opposing the reapers and all his exposure to reapers and reaper artifacts; it fits the narrative.  With the importance that indoctrination has had in the story, it would be quite odd if Shepard never had to overcome indoctrination himself.  It would be like the Star Wars Trilogy coming to a close without Luke facing and overcoming the temptation of the dark side.

[Golferguy758]

The people who ae using that interview really ned tostop. He's dodging the question because he and bioware still have tricks. Read jessic's twitter. Look beyond what is directly in front of you

[redBadger14]

NICKjnp wrote...

I say again...he is immune to indoctrination. It was established in ME2. And he isn't controlling Shepard's thoughts...he is controlling his actions. There is a big difference between the two. I dislike the ending like everyone else but this idea that Shepard is indoctrinated goes against stated lore about Shepard.

He is not immune, only highly resistant when in a state of awareness. There is a huge difference.

[Icinix]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Stated it a bit further back but here:

Shepard, when fully aware of his surroundings and in an uncompromised mental state, is resistant to Reaper indoctrination. This is due to his strong will, driven by his goal in destroying the Reapers. Unlike control or synthesis, Shepard's goal of destroying the Reapers (no compromises, excuses, etc) isn't malleable.

However, when Shepard is asleep, or compromised mentally in some fashion (such as the trauma from Harbringer's attack), indoctrination can take place.

Indeed. Paul Grayson resisted indocrination for a long time - and that was arguably much more agressive attempts at indoctrination - it was only after severe drugging that the indoctrination begun to take affect, and even then he put up one hell of a fight.

[Dessalines]

You know I am just playthrough one more time and see if I get something that takes it from bad writing or bad business practice, and find something that one smoking gun.

[X2-Elijah]

My quick two cents: imo, the ending is *not* a hallucination. Yes, when the ending-sequence starts, you have a blurry screen and an echo-ey sound. However, both of those go away and only crop up in more 'cinematic' moments. Compare it to the previous dream-scenes in the game, where the echoes were far more pronounced, the edge-blur was far greater, and the effects never cut out as long as the dream continued. In fact, most of the ending sequence has the exact same sharpness, colour filtering and clarity as regular game scenes.

Another thing... that 'ruined armor' bit. Well, here's the thing.. It's just enforced to let us see Shep battered, that's it. For instance - I had the Blood Dragon Armor when running towards the portal. Ofc, as the ending started, my Shep was in a battered N7 armour. So obviously, there's a disconnect. But - that disconnect is merely lack of development, not a hint of anything. When I tried the "red" ending, the one after which Shep is seen among rubble and draws breath, he *still had a battered N7 armour set*. If the whole armour-swap was meant to be a hint, then surely the armours would be swapped back. If, however, it was just a limitation of Bioware's "cinematic railroading", then it makes sense and does not imply anything about hallucinating.

And finally... Eh, after replaying the endings and keeping the hallucination theory in mind.. It just didn't *feel* like a hallucination. There's a lot of stuff shown wthout any dream-cues (sound, visuals, effects), there's a lot of stuff shown from non-Shepard perspective, it doesn't end at a logical place (defeating the indoctrination of mind, or making a resolute choice), and some stuff is clearly made to be shown to the player, without Shepard's point-of-view at all (e.g. Stargazer).

If Bioware really did intend for players to see through the ending as a hallucination, then they really failed at getting the hints and point across. If they didn't inted it, then the ending is simply a sci-fi trope, paired with consequences of rewrites and edits (which is clearly how the whole Normandy-crash scene was included) which are all-too-common in game development.

Modifié par X2-Elijah, 14 mars 2012 - 02:41 .

[ArkkAngel007]

Smiley556 wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

Stated it a bit further back but here:

Shepard, when fully aware of his surroundings and in an uncompromised mental state, is resistant to Reaper indoctrination. This is due to his strong will, driven by his goal in destroying the Reapers. Unlike control or synthesis, Shepard's goal of destroying the Reapers (no compromises, excuses, etc) isn't malleable.

However, when Shepard is asleep, or compromised mentally in some fashion (such as the trauma from Harbringer's attack), indoctrination can take place.

Key word is resistant. Immune/resistant, know the difference.

That was my point 

[Syphirr]

redBadger14 wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

I say again...he is immune to indoctrination. It was established in ME2. And he isn't controlling Shepard's thoughts...he is controlling his actions. There is a big difference between the two. I dislike the ending like everyone else but this idea that Shepard is indoctrinated goes against stated lore about Shepard.

He is not immune, only highly resistant when in a state of awareness. There is a huge difference.

This.

[Icinix]

Casey Hudson from Tailens post...

"Mass Effect 3 is the idea that we can let you feel something that is part of that character’s experience "

Mission Accomplished.

In a sense - that feeling of hopelessness - that feeling of no control...not being able to ask questions (the developers have abandoned the forums and twitter is cryptic at best and really only "glad you enjoyed it!" promo). Ultimately that feeling that what we did means nothing. Just like Shep would be feeling.

Every emotion we have as players right now - is the same emotions that Shep would be going through during this indoctrination process.

Quite frankly if this is what he meant, and I really believe it is, its brilliant. Risky and bat**** crazy...but brilliant.

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

Where does he say that, Icinix?

[Descedent]

NICKjnp wrote...

I say again...he is immune to indoctrination. It was established in ME2. And he isn't controlling Shepard's thoughts...he is controlling his actions. There is a big difference between the two. I dislike the ending like everyone else but this idea that Shepard is indoctrinated goes against stated lore about Shepard.

nononono... shep has never been this close to Harbinger before. It is quite possible especially with shepard being injured and dieing.  Thats why it's an Hallucination in which we believe harbinger is taking advantage of.

[Icinix]

PKchu wrote...

Where does he say that, Icinix?

Tailen quoted it all just a bit further up from my post - there is a link to the comments he made in it.

Modifié par Icinix, 14 mars 2012 - 02:45 .