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[lookingglassmind]

Fat Headed Wolf wrote...

Funny story to liven up the tension. I invited my dad over to my wife and my house to watch me play the ending (he loves ME even though he can't play it due to severe arthritis. He loves watching me play, so, whenever the games came out I'd invite him from across town to see it. Especially endings) I think it's a testament to the strength of the series that he could enjoy it without playing at all (in fact, he was heavily invested).

Anyway, Shep starts the Crucible and gets beamed up. And my dad just says "I don't understand... what the..."

Then we talk to the Star Child/ God and he says, "Why is he... Huh?"

Then I jump into the light and do... something... to combine organics and synthetic, followed by the crashing of Normandy on the planet.

He stands up, says, "What the hell was that?!", grabs a beer from the refrigerator, and drinks it in five seconds.

LAWL. Cheers to your Dad. +1.

[lavosslayer]

GBGriffin wrote...

rogueagent6 wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

I'm actually intrigued by this.

Without going through the thread...could someone possibly tell me at which point the humming is mentioned? I'd like to be on the lookout for indoctrination moments.

If I remember correctly it was one of the first times after "dancing" with him. It will be the last statement he makes in the series and is the one he will repeat if you keep pressing him.

So, the indoctrination begins that early in the game? Are they even close to the Reapers by this point? What would be indoctrinating them? Just the continued run-ins with the Reapers and it happens over time>

well the indoctrination of Shepard seems to have begun when he was exposed to object Rho in the Arrival DLC for ME2...someone else posted about how in the Sanctuary mission in ME3 they establish that adrenaline is used to speed up the process so ever since that mission in Arrival, Shepard has been slowly plodding towards being fully indoctrinated and being the events of ME3 happen so shortly afterwards all the adrenaline needed to fight back surely has taken its toll by the assualt to retake earth.

Modifié par lavosslayer, 11 mars 2012 - 05:14 .

[littleork]

GBGriffin wrote...

rogueagent6 wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

I'm actually intrigued by this.

Without going through the thread...could someone possibly tell me at which point the humming is mentioned? I'd like to be on the lookout for indoctrination moments.

If I remember correctly it was one of the first times after "dancing" with him. It will be the last statement he makes in the series and is the one he will repeat if you keep pressing him.

So, the indoctrination begins that early in the game? Are they even close to the Reapers by this point? What would be indoctrinating them? Just the continued run-ins with the Reapers and it happens over time>

There is 2 theories, its either in the ship or after the beam hit shepard, harbinger was there so he could have been indoctrinated at this point. Indoctrinations or ddream, it kinda lead to the same thing, i like indoctrination better since its like a boss fight with shepard'S mind instead of his guns

[FugitiveMind]

humes spork wrote...

keginkc wrote...

It's one of the random "I don't have anything more to say" comments that Vega makes in the shuttle bay.  He said it several different times during my playthrough.  I didn't really read anything into it at the time.

Hell I did. I immediately came to the conclusion there was an Indoctrination device on the Normandy and spent the better part of an hour going over every explorable inch of that ship trying to find it, thinking it was a breadcrumb to a side quest arc or companion assignment. I played BG1/2, KoTOR, JE, ME1, and DA:O enough times to know that kind of crap is how BioWare rolls. After I didn't find it, I wrote it off as an abandoned plot hook and went about playing the game figuring I hadn't progressed far enough for the Indoctrination device to rear its ugly head as a plothook. After a while I just forgot about it completely.

Reminds me of the conversation with EDI as to whether or not she had anything to talk about, was she sure, maybe a bad father figure, and how over time Shepard learned he had to ask about these things

[GBGriffin]

Elenterx wrote...

If Bioware just came out with a strong hint that they have been trixy hobbits then I would pop ME3 back in and start playing again.

I just don't have that feel right now Ending drained me of all want.

I'll admit...I'm almost tempted to do it now. I mean, this, more than anything I've seen since the week prior to launch, has given a new way to headcanon it, even hope. It's utterly ridiculous if it turns out to be true, but I guess we'll see.

I actually have no clue how I feel about this at the moment, lol. It's a mix of emotions over this, IF this indeed turns out to have any value.

[lookingglassmind]

GBGriffin wrote...

I'll admit...I'm almost tempted to do it now. I mean, this, more than anything I've seen since the week prior to launch, has given a new way to headcanon it, even hope. It's utterly ridiculous if it turns out to be true, but I guess we'll see.

I actually have no clue how I feel about this at the moment, lol. It's a mix of emotions over this, IF this indeed turns out to have any value.

Even if we get proof that we were wrong and the endings stand as presented (however that is), then f*ck it. I'm just going to headcanon it this way until I die.

[KimGulch]

As I was reading this thread, one thing that struck me as odd with the indoctrination theory was that if the reapers are trying to win by either fully controlling (control ending) or somehow merging with/assimilating (synthesis ending) Shepard, why would they give him the option to break free (destroy ending) even if they make sound less appealing than the other two. Then I remembered something I learnt a little while ago about a real world research and experiments into human behaviour, choice and control, and the results were that people would be more susceptible and willing to agree to something if it was presented as a choice rather than an order or a demand. This, coupled with the fact that one of both the biggest selling points and central themes of the ME series has always been choice, well...

[GBGriffin]

lookingglassmind wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

I'll admit...I'm almost tempted to do it now. I mean, this, more than anything I've seen since the week prior to launch, has given a new way to headcanon it, even hope. It's utterly ridiculous if it turns out to be true, but I guess we'll see.

I actually have no clue how I feel about this at the moment, lol. It's a mix of emotions over this, IF this indeed turns out to have any value.

Even if we get proof that we were wrong and the endings stand as presented (however that is), then f*ck it. I'm just going to headcanon it this way until I die.

Honestly....yeah. Does the indoctrination account for the fate of the Normandy crew, though? Or is that not a dream and Joker really is an idiot

I mean, if surviving it implies Shepard lives, then maybe a reunion is still possible.

I may start considering this wth more weight.

Modifié par GBGriffin, 11 mars 2012 - 05:16 .

[littleork]

KimGulch wrote...

As I was reading this thread, one thing that struck me as odd with the indoctrination theory was that if the reapers are trying to win by either fully controlling (control ending) or somehow merging with/assimilating (synthesis ending) Shepard, why would they give him the option to break free (destroy ending) even if they make sound less appealing than the other two. Then I remembered something I learnt a little while ago about a real world research and experiments into human behaviour, choice and control, and the results were that people would be more susceptible and willing to agree to something if it was presented as a choice rather than an order or a demand. This, coupled with the fact that one of both the biggest selling points and central themes of the ME series has always been choice, well...

They also made the destroy sound bad, by killing geths and edi, especially if you made sure to put them on your side, so the harbinger made it sound like a bad decision in some ways.

[krystalevenstar]

Ah! Finally, I found where the codex entry got posted here

[keginkc]

Hmm... This humming thing has me hoping. I do not remember Kaiden in Me1 but I'll take your guy's word for it.

As I recall (and I could be wrong) he says it on the Citadel when standing near the relay monument that's really the Conduit.

Didn't the Protheans actually build that?  I could swear that wasn't a reaper device at all, but something the Ilos scientists created.     Been too long since I played the original game.  If that's the case, there really wouldn't be any kind of connection between that and an indoctrination device or even reaper tech.

I think I just took Vega's hum sound as him hearing the ship's drive, and a random thing he says.  But maybe there's more to it.  I could be completely off my rocker; as I say it's been too long since I played the original.

[Polat995]

KimGulch wrote...

As I was reading this thread, one thing that struck me as odd with the indoctrination theory was that if the reapers are trying to win by either fully controlling (control ending) or somehow merging with/assimilating (synthesis ending) Shepard, why would they give him the option to break free (destroy ending) even if they make sound less appealing than the other two. Then I remembered something I learnt a little while ago about a real world research and experiments into human behaviour, choice and control, and the results were that people would be more susceptible and willing to agree to something if it was presented as a choice rather than an order or a demand. This, coupled with the fact that one of both the biggest selling points and central themes of the ME series has always been choice, well...

Simple, isn't it? Otherwise, you would understand something is wrong. And that god kiddo tried stopping us from destroying synthetics by saying that we would destroy Geths and our synthetic parts too..

[lavosslayer]

littleork wrote...

KimGulch wrote...

As I was reading this thread, one thing that struck me as odd with the indoctrination theory was that if the reapers are trying to win by either fully controlling (control ending) or somehow merging with/assimilating (synthesis ending) Shepard, why would they give him the option to break free (destroy ending) even if they make sound less appealing than the other two. Then I remembered something I learnt a little while ago about a real world research and experiments into human behaviour, choice and control, and the results were that people would be more susceptible and willing to agree to something if it was presented as a choice rather than an order or a demand. This, coupled with the fact that one of both the biggest selling points and central themes of the ME series has always been choice, well...

They also made the destroy sound bad, by killing geths and edi, especially if you made sure to put them on your side, so the harbinger made it sound like a bad decision in some ways.

He also said that it would kill Shepard too...not to mention this was also the "red" choice...while the "blue" choice was control a la TIM's method of thinking...

[krystalevenstar]

lavosslayer wrote...

littleork wrote...

KimGulch wrote...

As I was reading this thread, one thing that struck me as odd with the indoctrination theory was that if the reapers are trying to win by either fully controlling (control ending) or somehow merging with/assimilating (synthesis ending) Shepard, why would they give him the option to break free (destroy ending) even if they make sound less appealing than the other two. Then I remembered something I learnt a little while ago about a real world research and experiments into human behaviour, choice and control, and the results were that people would be more susceptible and willing to agree to something if it was presented as a choice rather than an order or a demand. This, coupled with the fact that one of both the biggest selling points and central themes of the ME series has always been choice, well...

They also made the destroy sound bad, by killing geths and edi, especially if you made sure to put them on your side, so the harbinger made it sound like a bad decision in some ways.

He also said that it would kill Shepard too...not to mention this was also the "red" choice...while the "blue" choice was control a la TIM's method of thinking...

Right. They didn't outright say it would kill Shepard, but the starchild goes say 'You yourself are partially synthetic. Could you imagine your life without them?" definitely trying to shy Shepard away from that choice.

[GBGriffin]

littleork wrote...

There is 2 theories, its either in the ship or after the beam hit shepard, harbinger was there so he could have been indoctrinated at this point. Indoctrinations or ddream, it kinda lead to the same thing, i like indoctrination better since its like a boss fight with shepard'S mind instead of his guns

Rewatching Shepard take a breath, the rubble would seem to suggest that Shep was knocked out on Earth, unless those same building materials are in place in the Crucible or something. The debris looks like concrete, not whatever the Crucible or Citdael were made out of...

Damn it. My hopes...must keep them down >:|

[Sajuro]

keginkc wrote...

Hmm... This humming thing has me hoping. I do not remember Kaiden in Me1 but I'll take your guy's word for it.

As I recall (and I could be wrong) he says it on the Citadel when standing near the relay monument that's really the Conduit.

Didn't the Protheans actually build that?  I could swear that wasn't a reaper device at all, but something the Ilos scientists created.     Been too long since I played the original game.  If that's the case, there really wouldn't be any kind of connection between that and an indoctrination device or even reaper tech.

I think I just took Vega's hum sound as him hearing the ship's drive, and a random thing he says.  But maybe there's more to it.  I could be completely off my rocker; as I say it's been too long since I played the original.

Remember, Tali said in ME1 that the Core Drive was silent (too quiet for her to sleep), and didn't make a comment about the drive in ME2 producing any noise, so I assume it didn't.

[littleork]

GBGriffin wrote...

littleork wrote...

There is 2 theories, its either in the ship or after the beam hit shepard, harbinger was there so he could have been indoctrinated at this point. Indoctrinations or ddream, it kinda lead to the same thing, i like indoctrination better since its like a boss fight with shepard'S mind instead of his guns

Rewatching Shepard take a breath, the rubble would seem to suggest that Shep was knocked out on Earth, unless those same building materials are in place in the Crucible or something. The debris looks like concrete, not whatever the Crucible or Citdael were made out of...

Damn it. My hopes...must keep them down >:|

I know Shep is like a superhero for us but he is still human, do you seriously think he could survive a fall like that with no helmet/armor on? Nope he couldnt so he was dreaming/indoctrinated , and like you just said, didnt look like citadel debris

[lookingglassmind]

GBGriffin wrote...

Honestly....yeah. Does the indoctrination account for the fate of the Normandy crew, though? Or is that not a dream and Joker really is an idiot

I mean, if surviving it implies Shepard lives, then maybe a reunion is still possible.

I may start considering this wth more weight.

My headcanon works a little differently. I believe Shepard was hallucinating up until s/he meets the Catalyst. I am not certain if the meeting with the Catalyst is metaphysical in nature, or rooted in reality, but it doesn't really matter. The meeting with the Catalyst may be a hallucination as well (although the "breathing" ending after Destroy with a high EMS level lends an unfavourable air to this aspect), but if indoctrination is attempted, then I think it happens during this meeting (as evidenced by all of the symptoms that Shepard experiences during this time, as well as the presence of the seemingly highly jarring and out-of-context choices). I think the fact of indoctrination occurring or not depends on player choice. It's really the ultimate form of choice that BioWare's given us: we decide if we fall prey to the Reapers.

If Shepard was actually indoctrinated, I think the Prothean VI on Thessia would have recognized this in Shepard, as it did in Kai Leng. This didn't happen, which to me, is the strongest evidence we have in-game (other than our intimate knowledge of Shepard's immense mental resistance throughout the series) of Shepard being free of indoctrination.

So, for me: Shepard is hallucinating. I chose to Destroy, so Shepard was never indoctrinated by Harbinger. Those that chose Control or Synthesis may have been (Control, definately).

[GBGriffin]

littleork wrote...

I know Shep is like a superhero for us but he is still human, do you seriously think he could survive a fall like that with no helmet/armor on? Nope he couldnt so he was dreaming/indoctrinated , and like you just said, didnt look like citadel debris

I said keep hope down damnit! >:|

Like I said, I have no clue what to think about this. I mean...at best, it's the truth and they should clarify it immediately, in which case, to quote Yahtzee, "THERE IS NO MIDDLE FINGER BIG ENOUGH!"

At worst, it actually gives me a much better headcanon than ever before.

I'm intrigued.

[littleork]

lookingglassmind wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

Honestly....yeah. Does the indoctrination account for the fate of the Normandy crew, though? Or is that not a dream and Joker really is an idiot

I mean, if surviving it implies Shepard lives, then maybe a reunion is still possible.

I may start considering this wth more weight.

My headcanon works a little differently. I believe Shepard was hallucinating up until s/he meets the Catalyst. I am not certain if the meeting with the Catalyst is metaphysical in nature, or rooted in reality, but it doesn't really matter. The meeting with the Catalyst may be a hallucination as well (although the "breathing" ending after Destroy with a high EMS level lends an unfavourable air to this aspect), but if indoctrination is attempted, then I think it happens during this meeting (as evidenced by all of the symptoms that Shepard experiences during this time, as well as the presence of the seemingly highly jarring and out-of-context choices). I think the fact of indoctrination occurring or not depends on player choice. It's really the ultimate form of choice that BioWare's given us: we decide if we fall prey to the Reapers.

If Shepard was actually indoctrinated, I think the Prothean VI on Thessia would have recognized this in Shepard, as it did in Kai Leng. This didn't happen, which to me, is the strongest evidence we have in-game (other than our intimate knowledge of Shepard's immense mental resistance throughout the series) of Shepard being free of indoctrination.

So, for me: Shepard is hallucinating. I chose to Destroy, so Shepard was never indoctrinated by Harbinger. Those that chose Control or Synthesis may have been (Control, definately).

Thats a good point, i thought that if she was indoctrinated, it was after the beam, so either she wasnt indoctrinated or she was dreaming. im ok with both choices.

[Golferguy758]

Assuming the ending that we got was a hallucination. I have a list of questions that I would like to be clarified.
When exactly does the hallucination take place? When you get lifted to the god-child/harbinger/whatever? Or when he gets hit by the laser?

A lot of people have been saying that Shepard has been indoctrinated. Exactly when does this take place. It can't be before thessia otherwise the Prothean Vi would not have appeared to help.

The whole Normandy crash landing fiasco. Was that part of the dream, or was that somethign that actually happened.

The destruction of the relays. Happen or not?


Would appreciate a few clarifications on this. As it stands it does make sense to me on a base level. But would definitely appreciate some clarification on those finer points.

On one hand this does seem a bit brilliant. on the other hand, my more cynical nature just says that people are tryign to rationalize those endings and are trying to make the evidence fit the conclusion instead of drawing a conclusion from the evidence.

[Sajuro]

Wait, if the dream was after you got hit, it makes sense that Harbinger would have shown you that he left since if Harbinger was still there and Shepard was able to get to the light, he would have known something was up.

[keginkc]

Sajuro wrote...

Remember, Tali said in ME1 that the Core Drive was silent (too quiet for her to sleep), and didn't make a comment about the drive in ME2 producing any noise, so I assume it didn't.

Yeah.  I'm just trying to disconnect the Kaiden comment in ME1 from the equation.  There's plenty of other evidence for indoctrination just in ME3 itself, starting with the wacky, completely-out-of-left-field dreams starting at basically the very beginning of the game. And that end sequence is quite reminicent of those dream sequances.

Not that I necessarily think there's anything to it.  People do tend to see what they want/hope to see, and I think a lot of people at this point are really invested in proving to themselves that the game's ending can't possibly be the game's ending.

[humes spork]

keginkc wrote...

Didn't the Protheans actually build that?  I could swear that wasn't a reaper device at all, but something the Ilos scientists created.     Been too long since I played the original game.  If that's the case, there really wouldn't be any kind of connection between that and an indoctrination device or even reaper tech.

No, when I put that piece of information forward I was not suggesting the relay monument in any way was an Indoctrination device nor was Kaiden or anyone else in the squad being Indoctrinated during ME1.

I brought up Kaiden and the relay monument specifically to demonstrate how BW foreshadows events, revelations and plot twists through minor, out of place and more importantly optional dialog. As was the case in KoTOR in dialog prior to the Revan reveal, or in BG1 in dialog prior to the Bhaalspawn reveal.

In essence, I'm saying that what Kaiden's dialog was to the Conduit, Vega's dialog could very well be to an Indoctrination device aboard the Normandy.

Kaiden:Conduit::Vega:Indoctrination device

Modifié par humes spork, 11 mars 2012 - 05:29 .

[GBGriffin]

lookingglassmind wrote...

My headcanon works a little differently. I believe Shepard was hallucinating up until s/he meets the Catalyst. I am not certain if the meeting with the Catalyst is metaphysical in nature, or rooted in reality, but it doesn't really matter. The meeting with the Catalyst may be a hallucination as well (although the "breathing" ending after Destroy with a high EMS level lends an unfavourable air to this aspect), but if indoctrination is attempted, then I think it happens during this meeting (as evidenced by all of the symptoms that Shepard experiences during this time, as well as the presence of the seemingly highly jarring and out-of-context choices). I think the fact of indoctrination occurring or not depends on player choice. It's really the ultimate form of choice that BioWare's given us: we decide if we fall prey to the Reapers.

If Shepard was actually indoctrinated, I think the Prothean VI on Thessia would have recognized this in Shepard, as it did in Kai Leng. This didn't happen, which to me, is the strongest evidence we have in-game (other than our intimate knowledge of Shepard's immense mental resistance throughout the series) of Shepard being free of indoctrination.

So, for me: Shepard is hallucinating. I chose to Destroy, so Shepard was never indoctrinated by Harbinger. Those that chose Control or Synthesis may have been (Control, definately).

I forgot about that VI. You're right. It would have picked up if Shep was indoctrinated. At the end, though, so close to Sovereign and totally worn down....I could see it happening, either indoctrination or hallucination.

****. I'm going to have to play it again