57139 réponses à ce sujet

[ArkkAngel007]

byne wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

I already said it and I'll say it again, if the indoctrination theory is NOT what BioWare had in mind, they managed to miss the most awesome explanation.

Naw,

the indoctrination theory make almost as little sense as the endings we have.

No theory will work unless the Cataylst is gone.

Coincidentally, according to the indoctrination theory, the catalyst kid is all just in your head, so he never actually existed.

And that the true Catalyst is Shepard, as...who is our resident scribe?  Bring forth the holy dictionary!

[HairyMadDog1010]

killnoob wrote...

byne wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

I already said it and I'll say it again, if the indoctrination theory is NOT what BioWare had in mind, they managed to miss the most awesome explanation.

Naw,

the indoctrination theory make almost as little sense as the endings we have.

No theory will work unless the Cataylst is gone.

Coincidentally, according to the indoctrination theory, the catalyst kid is all just in your head, so he never actually existed.

And why would the kid be in here?

If Shepards indoctrinated, it means the reapers put him there.

And why would the kid give Shepard the option to destroy reapers if the reapers put him there?

I don't wanna be mean, but can you srsly connect the dots on your own please?

The general thought is.

It is all in his head and he never got up from being blasted by harby.

Controll/Synth Is shep losing his will by compromising opening him up to indoctrination (Supported by shep having TIm's eyes a moment before disolving).

Controll is shep staying resolute by killing the reapers thus breaking the reapers attempts of controll. supported by the fact that shep only wakes up is distroy.

[Fledgey]

Syphirr wrote...

"Did you ever seen inception? The ideas have to be coherent and consistent for your subconscious to accept it. Seeing as that option was the ultimate goal, shepard is more likely to argue and fight it off herself if the option she's been fighting for this whole time is mysteriously absent."

A THOUSAND TIMES THIS

It's why it's there. It is literally inception. The kid guides you toward the other two and throws negatives at you for the destroy option, but it's just there for consistency. It makes a lot of sense.

[Hurricane Brad]

killnoob wrote...

ixcruz wrote...

 Indoctrination codex entry: A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies  or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe.  

A Reaper's "suggestions" - The three ending choices, it cannot force a decision, only suggest.can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies - explains why Anderson is considered the renegade option and TIM as supposedly paragon. The Star Child makes out the Reapers are only trying to do whats best for the galaxy.or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious (an irrational belief arising from ignorance or fear) awe - Shepard sees the Reaper AI as Star Child and instantly seems to trust it without question.

So the reaper SUGGEST Shepard to destroy the reapers?

Riiight.

You're not listening.  You don't manipulate somebody by completely denying them their options.  You do it by making your own goals seem more appealing.  If the catalyst kid simply told Shepard "nope, you can't destroy the reapers" then it would be pretty easy to tell that something fishy was going on.

[byne]

killnoob wrote...

byne wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

I already said it and I'll say it again, if the indoctrination theory is NOT what BioWare had in mind, they managed to miss the most awesome explanation.

Naw,

the indoctrination theory make almost as little sense as the endings we have.

No theory will work unless the Cataylst is gone.

Coincidentally, according to the indoctrination theory, the catalyst kid is all just in your head, so he never actually existed.

And why would the kid be in here?

If Shepards indoctrinated, it means the reapers put him there.

And why would the kid give Shepard the option to destroy reapers if the reapers put him there?

I don't wanna be mean, but can you srsly connect the dots on your own please?

I can indeed connect dots on my own, but as I just woke up and am tired, and since you seem to have a firm handle on things, I'd prefer to let you do it for me.


Anyway, I dont really think the Reapers crafted the entirety of the vision Shepard is having, I think they are simply trying to indoctrinate Shepard, and the vision is more Shepard's mind's way of envisioning the struggle against becoming indoctrinated.

You apparently disagree though, and thats fine, I respect your opinion.

[Earthborn_Shepard]

Hey.. maybe we should write kind of an "indoctrination-wiki"? So newcomers can just read everything up without browsing through 400+ pages...

[killnoob]

Syphirr wrote...

killnoob wrote...

ixcruz wrote...

 Indoctrination codex entry: A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies  or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe.  

A Reaper's "suggestions" - The three ending choices, it cannot force a decision, only suggest.can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies - explains why Anderson is considered the renegade option and TIM as supposedly paragon. The Star Child makes out the Reapers are only trying to do whats best for the galaxy.or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious (an irrational belief arising from ignorance or fear) awe - Shepard sees the Reaper AI as Star Child and instantly seems to trust it without question.

So the reaper SUGGEST Shepard to destroy the reapers?

Riiight.

The child does everything in it's power to guide him AWAY from the destroy option. THE FACT IS: The destroy option is the only one that sees shepard wake up. If you can somehow explain that, then as others have said, we will all give up this theory.

Does EVERYTHING he can means "Gives him the option and watch him decide and repsect his choice after he's made the decision?"

Okay sure I'll give it a try.

1. In control: You sacrificed your body, and fused into the crucible and the catalyst, which will control the reapers

2. In synergy: you sacrificed your body and let the beam release it into space which turn everyone into synthetics.
(This is obviously the official setting, which sucks. So how about, "Shepard dies because he's dumb enough to jump off the ledge into a beam several kilometers tall?")

3 In destroy; Shepard shot up the console. The reaper got killed. The citadel is gone but Shepard miraculously survived in the wreckage.


That work for you?

[Pelleran]

killnoob wrote...

byne wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

I already said it and I'll say it again, if the indoctrination theory is NOT what BioWare had in mind, they managed to miss the most awesome explanation.

Naw,

the indoctrination theory make almost as little sense as the endings we have.

No theory will work unless the Cataylst is gone.

Coincidentally, according to the indoctrination theory, the catalyst kid is all just in your head, so he never actually existed.

And why would the kid be in here?

If Shepards indoctrinated, it means the reapers put him there.

And why would the kid give Shepard the option to destroy reapers if the reapers put him there?

I don't wanna be mean, but can you srsly connect the dots on your own please?

The kid gives Shepard the option to destroy the Reapers, sure. But that would also cost Shepard dearly, as the kid makes abundantly clear. It would kill all synthetics, including the Geth and EDI. Even if you allowed the Quarians to destroy the Geth, there is still the point that EDI would be gone.

I can only talk for my Shepard, though, and he would certainly try to save EVERY race and not sacrifice and ENTIRE race only to destroy the reapers. He would try to think of a different way to solve that. And that is exactly why the god kid gives the option.

Given all the choices Shepard can make - the logical assumption if he brought EVERYONE to the final battle would be that he is hesitant to make necessary sacrifices. At least that's my idea of the topic.

[Fledgey]

Hurricane Brad wrote...

killnoob wrote...

ixcruz wrote...

 Indoctrination codex entry: A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies  or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe.  

A Reaper's "suggestions" - The three ending choices, it cannot force a decision, only suggest.can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies - explains why Anderson is considered the renegade option and TIM as supposedly paragon. The Star Child makes out the Reapers are only trying to do whats best for the galaxy.or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious (an irrational belief arising from ignorance or fear) awe - Shepard sees the Reaper AI as Star Child and instantly seems to trust it without question.

So the reaper SUGGEST Shepard to destroy the reapers?

Riiight.

You're not listening.  You don't manipulate somebody by completely denying them their options.  You do it by making your own goals seem more appealing.  If the catalyst kid simply told Shepard "nope, you can't destroy the reapers" then it would be pretty easy to tell that something fishy was going on.

Bingo. I think our biggest connected dots right now are the fact that synthesis = saren and control = TIM and if you chose those your eyes actually look like Saren/TIM's. How is that not a GIANT clue?

[Noob451]

killnoob wrote...

byne wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

I already said it and I'll say it again, if the indoctrination theory is NOT what BioWare had in mind, they managed to miss the most awesome explanation.

Naw,

the indoctrination theory make almost as little sense as the endings we have.

No theory will work unless the Cataylst is gone.

Coincidentally, according to the indoctrination theory, the catalyst kid is all just in your head, so he never actually existed.

And why would the kid be in here?

If Shepards indoctrinated, it means the reapers put him there.

And why would the kid give Shepard the option to destroy reapers if the reapers put him there?

I don't wanna be mean, but can you srsly connect the dots on your own please?

because it's an ATTEMPT at indoctrination, that part about destroying the reapers is SHEPARD FIGHTING IT  the other options are put there to guide him away.... control.. the illusive man wanted this guess what?  he was indoctrinated! 

and synthesis, is eerily close to what Saren proposed, guess what?  Indoctrinated!     and something is said along the lines of "Synthesis will cause all organics to ASCEND to the last stage of evolution"    what does harbinger say in ME2 about the colonists?  oh right... "prepare the humans for ascension"

Modifié par Noob451, 14 mars 2012 - 03:44 .

[prag16]

killnoob wrote...

Syphirr wrote...

C Trayne wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

C Trayne wrote...

i have a question... it may have been answered here but I dont really want to go through 400 pages of forum at 3 am... sorry
let me first say that i too find the endings atrocious and would love for this theory to be true... that being said i feel i must play devils advocate here to ask this

The one thing that strikes me odd about this theory is if shepard was being indoctrinated and this was all going on inside shepards head why did he need to see or why did the reapers need to portray the mass relays being destroyed??? I feel as though it would have had the exact same effect if the blast just jumped from system to system destroying/controlling/synthesizing everything in them... IDK just seems odd they would show the relays being destroyed. Maybe they just wanted more destruction and depression idk

It's Shep's mind formulating a closure, just like with the Normandy and his squad mates.  In Synthesis, Shep would expect to see Joker and EDI happy together, and no matter what would want to see his/her LI alive and well.

I can accept that.... but if he wnats closure in his mind why would he want to see the relays destroyed?  If he wants to see his crew safe wouldn't he want to see the rest of the species safe? B/c if the relays are destroyed they're all pretty much screwed...

Because the child firmly states that the relays will all be destroyed, this is again probably to make shpard feel the options are genuine, and that his decisions really do carry a weight for the galaxy.

That's called "grasping straws".

His decision would've made a impact whether or not if the child told him about the relays.
They're just about to destroy the reapers...

As I said at this point it's about Harbinger trying to make Shepard see Destroy as the worst option.

[kent80082006]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

byne wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

I already said it and I'll say it again, if the indoctrination theory is NOT what BioWare had in mind, they managed to miss the most awesome explanation.

Naw,

the indoctrination theory make almost as little sense as the endings we have.

No theory will work unless the Cataylst is gone.

Coincidentally, according to the indoctrination theory, the catalyst kid is all just in your head, so he never actually existed.

And that the true Catalyst is Shepard, as...who is our resident scribe?  Bring forth the holy dictionary!

The catalyst cannot be shepherd, the use of the catalyst was implemented a few cycles ago and it has always been the citadel according to the Prothean VI, just maybe without the god child in it

Modifié par kent80082006, 14 mars 2012 - 03:43 .

[killnoob]

byne wrote...

killnoob wrote...

byne wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

I already said it and I'll say it again, if the indoctrination theory is NOT what BioWare had in mind, they managed to miss the most awesome explanation.

Naw,

the indoctrination theory make almost as little sense as the endings we have.

No theory will work unless the Cataylst is gone.

Coincidentally, according to the indoctrination theory, the catalyst kid is all just in your head, so he never actually existed.

And why would the kid be in here?

If Shepards indoctrinated, it means the reapers put him there.

And why would the kid give Shepard the option to destroy reapers if the reapers put him there?

I don't wanna be mean, but can you srsly connect the dots on your own please?

I can indeed connect dots on my own, but as I just woke up and am tired, and since you seem to have a firm handle on things, I'd prefer to let you do it for me.


Anyway, I dont really think the Reapers crafted the entirety of the vision Shepard is having, I think they are simply trying to indoctrinate Shepard, and the vision is more Shepard's mind's way of envisioning the struggle against becoming indoctrinated.

You apparently disagree though, and thats fine, I respect your opinion.

And I respect yours. I just don't like people when they try so hard to fill up some holes for bioware who clearly fked up on the ending.

[Golferguy758]

Read the theory before you make baseless assumptions without providing any countering evidence beyond"bioware is the dumb"

****ing nitwit.

If it's wrong.oh well. At least there is evidence on this end

[cobnut]

killnoob wrote...

Bobrzy wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Elenterx wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Why the hell would people even consider this a viable theory?

If Shepard's hallucinating/indoctrinated, why would the space god gives him the option to destroy reapers?

To make him give up/give in, obviously.

So....

He says to him: 'hey this button destroy the reapers but don't touch it you should just give up?'

 That's why they give him a choice, and make the ultimately good choice seem as the most evil one

Play this two scenrio out in your head.

Scenrio 1

Shepard: Mannn where the hell am I? Looks like im in something big...

God Child: You're in the crucible, and you have now 3 options. You can control reapers, create synergy, or you can destroy them, which will destroy all that good synthetics. You don't really want that right?


Shepard: I'm okay with that.

God Child; .... WAIT NEVERMIND I TAKE THAT BACK DONT DO IT I DONT WANNA DIE


Scenrio 2:

Shepard: Mann where the hell am I?

God Child: I donno.  (Troll face)


-------------------------------

Get it?

If the purpose of indoctrination is to stop Shepard from killing the reapers, then it makes no sense why the reapers would plant a haullcination in his head which "guide' him towards destroy the reapers.

Also,

If he's indoctrinated, what makes you think choosing the destroy option will make him wake up?
And if that would happen, why would the space god "TELL HIM " about the destroy option? To help me wake up?

Srsly that make no sense.

It's not that they can prevent shepard from choosing destruction. It's a battle of willpower. If his will is strong enough he can break the indoctrination. All the other stuff is just a visualization of this battle.

[PyroByte]

killnoob wrote...

byne wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

I already said it and I'll say it again, if the indoctrination theory is NOT what BioWare had in mind, they managed to miss the most awesome explanation.

Naw,

the indoctrination theory make almost as little sense as the endings we have.

No theory will work unless the Cataylst is gone.

Coincidentally, according to the indoctrination theory, the catalyst kid is all just in your head, so he never actually existed.

And why would the kid be in here?

If Shepards indoctrinated, it means the reapers put him there.

And why would the kid give Shepard the option to destroy reapers if the reapers put him there?

I don't wanna be mean, but can you srsly connect the dots on your own please?

What part of hallucination do you not understand? None of the options the kid gives are reality they are just playing out in shepards head and the destroy option being an allegory for his will to continue fighting the reapers. Hence this is the only ending you see shepard breathing again.

[Sheparded]

But what if the Godchild is actually Shepard kid which he had with Ashley.....DUN DUN DUN

[IhateEA-Mask]

And doesn't renegade Shepard say something like that trying to compromise with reapers will just lead to indoctrination?

[Fledgey]

byne wrote...

killnoob wrote...

byne wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

I already said it and I'll say it again, if the indoctrination theory is NOT what BioWare had in mind, they managed to miss the most awesome explanation.

Naw,

the indoctrination theory make almost as little sense as the endings we have.

No theory will work unless the Cataylst is gone.

Coincidentally, according to the indoctrination theory, the catalyst kid is all just in your head, so he never actually existed.

And why would the kid be in here?

If Shepards indoctrinated, it means the reapers put him there.

And why would the kid give Shepard the option to destroy reapers if the reapers put him there?

I don't wanna be mean, but can you srsly connect the dots on your own please?

I can indeed connect dots on my own, but as I just woke up and am tired, and since you seem to have a firm handle on things, I'd prefer to let you do it for me.


Anyway, I dont really think the Reapers crafted the entirety of the vision Shepard is having, I think they are simply trying to indoctrinate Shepard, and the vision is more Shepard's mind's way of envisioning the struggle against becoming indoctrinated.

You apparently disagree though, and thats fine, I respect your opinion.

Ooooh I like that, Byne. I hadn't thought of it that way. That's extremely plausible.

[Syphirr]

killnoob wrote...

Syphirr wrote...

killnoob wrote...

ixcruz wrote...

 Indoctrination codex entry: A Reaper's "suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies  or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe.  

A Reaper's "suggestions" - The three ending choices, it cannot force a decision, only suggest.can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting enemies - explains why Anderson is considered the renegade option and TIM as supposedly paragon. The Star Child makes out the Reapers are only trying to do whats best for the galaxy.or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious (an irrational belief arising from ignorance or fear) awe - Shepard sees the Reaper AI as Star Child and instantly seems to trust it without question.

So the reaper SUGGEST Shepard to destroy the reapers?

Riiight.

The child does everything in it's power to guide him AWAY from the destroy option. THE FACT IS: The destroy option is the only one that sees shepard wake up. If you can somehow explain that, then as others have said, we will all give up this theory.

Does EVERYTHING he can means "Gives him the option and watch him decide and repsect his choice after he's made the decision?"

Okay sure I'll give it a try.

1. In control: You sacrificed your body, and fused into the crucible and the catalyst, which will control the reapers

2. In synergy: you sacrificed your body and let the beam release it into space which turn everyone into synthetics.
(This is obviously the official setting, which sucks. So how about, "Shepard dies because he's dumb enough to jump off the ledge into a beam several kilometers tall?")

3 In destroy; Shepard shot up the console. The reaper got killed. The citadel is gone but Shepard miraculously survived in the wreckage.


That work for you?

As so many of us have already asserted, Shepard is shown waking up amongst the rubble in London, on Earth. unless we bring more space magic into this, the 3 choices cannot physically have been real. You're either trolling, or just aren't taking the time to listen to what the comunity has pretty much reached consensus on. regardless, you're entitled to your opinion, there's just no need to act so aggressively with it. Just my opinion.

Modifié par Syphirr, 14 mars 2012 - 03:46 .

[ArkkAngel007]

I gotta say, the only thing that bothers me is the "kid was never real" argument. Yeah, the soldiers don't help him get on the shuttle, nor does Anderson see the kid or realize Shepard was talking to it, but that one is a huge stretch. Those could be explained by the troops helping the injured and rushing to dust-off, and Anderson being in the other room and fiddling with the door.

It could be an apparition, but highly doubtful in that aspect. It makes more sense that the kid was real and affected Shepard enough that it resonated with him/her on the situation on Earth and his/her failings, to where it becomes a suitable projection of his/her subconscience. My thought anyways. Doesn't really make it fact in any way.

[ArkkAngel007]

Sheparded wrote...

But what if the Godchild is actually Shepard kid which he had with Ashley.....DUN DUN DUN

FemShep is confused...

[Earthborn_Shepard]

Shepard being the Catalyst would definately make a hundred percent more sense than that little brat. It would fit the actual meaning of the word, meaning Shep's ability to inspire and encourage people. All other civilisations just didn't have some kind of leader like that, so they perished.

[Noob451]

ArkkAngel007 wrote...

I gotta say, the only thing that bothers me is the "kid was never real" argument. Yeah, the soldiers don't help him get on the shuttle, nor does Anderson see the kid or realize Shepard was talking to it, but that one is a huge stretch. Those could be explained by the troops helping the injured and rushing to dust-off, and Anderson being in the other room and fiddling with the door.

It could be an apparition, but highly doubtful in that aspect. It makes more sense that the kid was real and affected Shepard enough that it resonated with him/her on the situation on Earth and his/her failings, to where it becomes a suitable projection of his/her subconscience. My thought anyways. Doesn't really make it fact in any way.

how do you explain the kid running into the builing through a locked door and seconds later a reaper destroys the building and then the kid is somehow in the vents of ANOTHER building, making lots of noise getting your attention, and then when anderson gets your attention, you hear a reaper growl and the kid is gone without a sound?

Modifié par Noob451, 14 mars 2012 - 03:48 .