57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Candidate 88766]

Fledgey wrote...
Now you're arguing semantics, bro. Here. Let me fix our theory for you. So the destroy option represents shepard's will to live, causing her to RESIST the indoctrination and wake up from being knocked unconscious. There. All patched up.

But Shepard is still so indoctrinated that the Reapers can cause him to imagine entire situations in his mind. There's no going back from that. The Reapers could just seize control of his mind again with no trouble. If they have indoctrinated him this much, willpower alone isn't going to stop them controlling Shepard.

[prag16]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

The theory relies on there being a point in the story where things suddenly stop being real and start being an illusion, but the time most people have settled on (just after Harbinger shoots you) doesn't work. 

Nobody has sufficiently demonstrated that it doesn't work.  Every point has been refuted.  More than any other point in the game(s), THAT is the point where things really got weird.  It's very obvious.  It may end up being not true.  But you can't deny the evidence.

[Noob451]

I'm starting to feel like this thread has become similar to Shepard trying to tell everyone about the reapers, and everyone else just dismissing it with no actual counter argument.  (in most cases anyway, I have seen some well thought out counter arguments)

Modifié par Noob451, 14 mars 2012 - 04:23 .

[Candidate 88766]

Kioux wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Two things.

Firstly, if a person running high with adrenaline can indoctrinated within minutes just by being close to the Reapers, then virtually every single human would have been indoctrinated on day one of the invasion. Giant machines from space have just landed on your planet and are obliterating your cities - to a normal person, that is going to generate a serious amount of adrenaline. Given that there are multiple Reapers in each city, the vast majority of the population would be indoctrinated in no time at all. This is not the case - the people brought to the prison areas set up by the Reapers are described as still having free will in most cases as they commit acts of kindness to each other.

Secondly, indoctrination is not something you can simply overcome. The ME3 codex states that it is achieved through 'electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal method'. You cannot overcome these forces with willpower. You can't simply choose to stop the signals entering your mind.  

And yet we, or at least I , had Saren as well as TIM defy the indoctrination at the end by killing themselves. So, that theory does not work to a 100% either from where I see it. And as far as I know, there are different sorts of Reapers with different ways to go about the invasion. And once they decide to harvest the species and they find out that - all in all - those humans can't really do anything about it, why waste time on indoctrinating? The only actual danger is Shepard and those that are going for the single way to destroy all of them, no?

Death is the only method we've seen so far that can overcome indoctrination (except becoming a Thorian thrall).

Why spend months, or maybe even years, harvesting people if you can indoctrinate them in the first few hours?

[blooregard]

Noob451 wrote...

prag16 wrote...

Machines Are Us wrote...

Fascinating read, but too much has been read into it, and too much expectation on Bioware to be subtle where all evidence points to the contrary.

But that's just it...

Most in-game evidence indicates the indoctrination theory as being more probable than the "face value" theory.

The leading evidence for the "face value" theory is people assuming there's no Bioware can be this deep/clever/meta.

They're probably right.  But there's not enough evidence to dismiss the indoctrination theory out of hand.

these guys are beginning to sound like the Turian Councilor, we all know how that ended up.

ah yes "indoctronation theory" the thought that bioware intentionally gave us a poor ending just release a DLC for the real ending at a later date. we have dismissed this claim

[byne]

Noob451 wrote...

HairyMadDog1010 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I know the subject of the eyes has been brought up a lot.  But I've talked to quite a few people who don't see it, or don't think they're really what we think they are.  So I got some screenshots and when necessary magnified them so you can see them better.


That's the Illusive Man's eye in ME2. Note the pattern: an inner circle, an outer circle, and two orb shapes on the bottom left and right.


This is Saren's eye in ME1 right before he ragequits existence. It's different, but similar in a way. A large glowing center, an inner ring, a much smaller outer ring, and some wavy designs coming out of them.


This is Shepard's eye right after his face turned black in the control ending. This is the exact same pattern as the Illusive Man's. The only difference is the color. Which is similar to Saren's. I'll also note that the rest of the scene he seemed to be in immense pain as he's gripping the handles. After he turns like this, he simply looks deadpan and emotionless.


This is Shepard's eye during the synthesis ending. He's further from the camera and a lot of the time it's distorted by the green pulses, but this is still a clear enough shot to tell, without a doubt, that he has the same eyes here as in control.

Hopefully this helps convince someone that doesn't believe the eye evidence, which I personally consider to be the strongest evidence of the indoctrination theory.

Page 383...

i was looking for this

As was I! 

Now to add it to the first post!

[Candidate 88766]

Fledgey wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
*Bull*****

All of these have been answered in the thread. Read moar.

Charming.

If you know for a fact that they have all been refuted, then I'd love to see the counter-arguments.

[HairyMadDog1010]

People if even the eye evidence can't convince you I have lost all hope.

[kent80082006]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Fledgey wrote...
Now you're arguing semantics, bro. Here. Let me fix our theory for you. So the destroy option represents shepard's will to live, causing her to RESIST the indoctrination and wake up from being knocked unconscious. There. All patched up.

But Shepard is still so indoctrinated that the Reapers can cause him to imagine entire situations in his mind. There's no going back from that. The Reapers could just seize control of his mind again with no trouble. If they have indoctrinated him this much, willpower alone isn't going to stop them controlling Shepard.

LISTEN! The whole point is that the whole thing is an ATTEMPT
to indoctrinate Shepherd, if he's already deeply indoctrinated as you
said do you think he will still have a chance to make choices? NO!

[prag16]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

The theory relies on Shepard going from a point of being very indoctrinated to a point of being virtually free of it, which is impossible. The level of indoctrination cannot decreas - as the codex says, the changes to the mind caused by these signals are permanent.

NO IT DOESN'T.  The theory relies on no such thing.

The theory relies on the premise that everything thus far as been an indoctrination ATTEMPT.  Not actual successful indoctrination.  Successful indoctrination only occurs if the player is deluded into thinking that blue or green or all of a sudden "good" after thinking contrary for 99.9% of the series!

[MintyCool]

Almost 500 posts...Seriously, some of you should take a step back and rethink your priorities in life...

We already won, the terrific finally to the Mass Effect saga will not be changed. Accept that.

My suggestion, it's Spring, maybe take in a little sun.

Vocal minorities always lose. Always. social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9870213/1

Modifié par MintyCool, 14 mars 2012 - 04:27 .

[JulienJaden]

prag16 wrote...

Machines Are Us wrote...

Fascinating read, but too much has been read into it, and too much expectation on Bioware to be subtle where all evidence points to the contrary.

But that's just it...

Most in-game evidence indicates the indoctrination theory as being more probable than the "face value" theory.

The leading evidence for the "face value" theory is people assuming there's no Bioware can be this deep/clever/meta.

They're probably right.  But there's not enough evidence to dismiss the indoctrination theory out of hand.

Well, it comes down to this: Either they are trolling us until they're ready to tell us how it's really going to end or Bioware has done an extremely sloppy job, because everything in the game and surrounding the endings points towards something bigger and suggests that it's not over yet. If all of that is really just a remnant of something that was planned before, or if they just went berserk writing stuff with no regards to what plotholes it would create if they were left unanswered, Mass Effect 3 is definitely unworthy of the series because it significantly devalues what quality there is.

[prag16]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

And while these points alone aren't enough to 100% disprove the theory for some people, they are surely enough to call it into serious doubt at least.

Most of that has already been shot down in the thread.  And for whatever semi valid points exist within that list... that's still far less "problems" and "holes" than the "face value" theory causes.

[Noob451]

MintyCool wrote...

Almost 500 posts...Seriously, some of you should take a step back and rethink your priorities in life...

We already won, the terrific finally to the Mass Effect saga will not be changed. Accept that.

My suggestion, it's Spring, maybe take in a little sun.

Vocal minorities always lose. Always. social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9870213/1

the point of your post was....?

[redBadger14]

MintyCool wrote...

Almost 500 posts...Seriously, some of you should take a step back and rethink your priorities in life...

We already won, the terrific finally to the Mass Effect saga will not be changed. Accept that.

My suggestion, it's Spring, maybe take in a little sun.

Vocal minorities always lose. Always. social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9870213/1

Thanks for your opinion. Also, its spelled "finale."

For the record I get outside and see plenty of sun every day. 

Modifié par redBadger14, 14 mars 2012 - 04:29 .

[njfluffy19]

MintyCool wrote...

Almost 500 posts...Seriously, some of you should take a step back and rethink your priorities in life...

We already won, the terrific finally to the Mass Effect saga will not be changed. Accept that.

My suggestion, it's Spring, maybe take in a little sun.

Vocal minorities always lose. Always. social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9870213/1

Huh? Your post contradicts itself.

[killnoob]

Facepalm.

Right so none of the three end cut scenes are real.

Even with the destroyer option, where you actually SEE reaper destroyed.
Shepard doesn't immediately wakes up - instead he dream some more about reapers getting destroyed and how normandy crushland and joker walk out with his best buddy and watch the sunset blah blah

Enough is enough. = =

Modifié par killnoob, 14 mars 2012 - 04:31 .

[Candidate 88766]

prag16 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

The theory relies on Shepard going from a point of being very indoctrinated to a point of being virtually free of it, which is impossible. The level of indoctrination cannot decreas - as the codex says, the changes to the mind caused by these signals are permanent.

NO IT DOESN'T.  The theory relies on no such thing.

The theory relies on the premise that everything thus far as been an indoctrination ATTEMPT.  Not actual successful indoctrination.  Successful indoctrination only occurs if the player is deluded into thinking that blue or green or all of a sudden "good" after thinking contrary for 99.9% of the series!

kent80082006 wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Fledgey wrote...
Now you're arguing semantics, bro. Here. Let me fix our theory for you. So the destroy option represents shepard's will to live, causing her to RESIST the indoctrination and wake up from being knocked unconscious. There. All patched up.

But Shepard is still so indoctrinated that the Reapers can cause him to imagine entire situations in his mind. There's no going back from that. The Reapers could just seize control of his mind again with no trouble. If they have indoctrinated him this much, willpower alone isn't going to stop them controlling Shepard.

LISTEN! The whole point is that the whole thing is an ATTEMPT
to indoctrinate Shepherd, if he's already deeply indoctrinated as you 
said do you think he will still have a chance to make choices? NO!

 

You don't attempt indoctrination.

Indoctrination works by EM and other subliminal signals. There is no way to block these. An attempt implies a probability of failure, which contradicts the lore around indoctrination. 

Its like saying that shining a torch into someone's face is an attempt to make them see the light from it. The light will be interpreted by the eyes, and signals will be sent to the brain. This cannot be stopped - even fi you close your eyes, light gets through. 

Indoctrination is the same - it is just signals going directly into the brain and changing it. 

[Noob451]

njfluffy19 wrote...

MintyCool wrote...

Almost 500 posts...Seriously, some of you should take a step back and rethink your priorities in life...

We already won, the terrific finally to the Mass Effect saga will not be changed. Accept that.

My suggestion, it's Spring, maybe take in a little sun.

Vocal minorities always lose. Always. social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9870213/1

Huh? Your post contradicts itself.

pshhh posting on a thread, you guys should get some sun!

by the way check out my thread!

[Capeo]

njfluffy19 wrote...

Capeo wrote...

cobnut wrote...

Killnoob, I think you are trolling us. Nobody could possibly be so ignorant and beside the point you pretend to be. You just didn't understand any of the arguments given to you and still blame the theory stupid. =.=

That's because the theory is stupid.  The game friggin' tells you outright you defeated the Reapers.  And people are so deluded that they think there is something more to it because they simply can't accept that ME just has subpar writers.

I've read the thread and the mental gymnastics are a joke.  BW wrote a crappy ending.  That's it.  The endings match the script exactly.  The script outright says Synergy is the best outcome.  The script outright says TIM is indoctrinated and says nothing about Shep being indoctrinated.  Synergy unlocks after Destroy and Control meaning BW thinks its the best option.  EDI and Joker look happy in the Synergy ending.  Again, the best outcome.  The game tells you outright you defeated the Reapers both on the damn screen and in the epilogue.

[HairyMadDog1010]

MintyCool wrote...

Almost 500 posts...Seriously, some of you should take a step back and rethink your priorities in life...

We already won, the terrific finally to the Mass Effect saga will not be changed. Accept that.

My suggestion, it's Spring, maybe take in a little sun.

Vocal minorities always lose. Always. social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9870213/1

 
I am posting this while at the park with my dog. OT read the OP pleanty of evidence that we are correct.

[Chipikowski]

I'm sorry, I'm a 100% positive this has been mentioned several times before, but i'm not planning on scouting through 400 pages...
But I saw my squadmates after I got hit by the laser. In a pool of blood. One of them my LI, and them coming out of the Normandy really messed with my feelings. Just saying, those that stated the squaddies were not there or standing somewhere in the back, maybe it's a bug?
Because mine were pretty dead. So I really, REALLY hope that all after the laser was a dream. Hallucination. Indoctrination. Whatever.

Come on, Bioware. Show us that you're not only the master of RPG's, but also the master of trolling. I'd salute you, get the DLC, and if it's good, I might not burn your headquarters down

[D0G S0LD1ER]

I don't know if this has been said or not yet but, did anyone else notice that the planet the Normandy crashes on and the planet that the stargazers are on is the could possibly be the same planet? (notice the position of the two moons). However, I don't know if it means anything, maybe someone else can shed some light on this.

[byne]

MintyCool wrote...

Almost 500 posts...Seriously, some of you should take a step back and rethink your priorities in life...

We already won, the terrific finally to the Mass Effect saga will not be changed. Accept that.

My suggestion, it's Spring, maybe take in a little sun.

Vocal minorities always lose. Always. social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9870213/1

>enjoyed the ending
>vocal minorities always lose


Do you not see the irony there?

Modifié par byne, 14 mars 2012 - 04:31 .

[Noob451]

[quote]killnoob wrote...

[quote
Now you're arguing semantics, bro. Here. Let me fix our theory for you. So the destroy option represents shepard's will to live, causing her to RESIST the indoctrination and wake up from being knocked unconscious. There. All patched up.

[/quote]

Facepalm.

Right so none of the three end cut scenes are real.

Even with the destroyer option, where you actually SEE reaper destroyed.
Shepard doesn't immediately wakes up - instead he dream some more about reapers getting destroyed and how normandy crushland and joker walk out with his best buddy and watch the sunset blah blah

Enough is enough. = =

[/quote]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

please, PLEASE come up with actual evidence proving otherwise, other than repeating the same thing over and over.

Modifié par Noob451, 14 mars 2012 - 04:32 .