57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Golferguy758]

Shepard can't be indoctrinated prior to Thessia otherwise no Prothean VI to help

[FugitiveMind]

II think our current working theory is that everything after Shepard takes a laser to the knee never actually happens.

Waking up armorless in slo-mo with an endless pistol clip is the beginning of the dream / hallucination / indoctrination battle for your mind

[keginkc]

humes spork wrote...

No, when I put that piece of information forward I was not suggesting the relay monument in any way was an Indoctrination device nor was Kaiden or anyone else in the squad being Indoctrinated during ME1.

I brought up Kaiden and the relay monument specifically to demonstrate how BW foreshadows events, revelations and plot twists through minor, out of place and more importantly optional dialog. As was the case in KoTOR in dialog prior to the Revan reveal, or in BG1 in dialog prior to the Bhaalspawn reveal.

That makes sense.  I probably didn't even read what you originally said.  This is a long thread that's moving fast.

[littleork]

Golferguy758 wrote...

Assuming the ending that we got was a hallucination. I have a list of questions that I would like to be clarified.
When exactly does the hallucination take place? When you get lifted to the god-child/harbinger/whatever? Or when he gets hit by the laser?

A lot of people have been saying that Shepard has been indoctrinated. Exactly when does this take place. It can't be before thessia otherwise the Prothean Vi would not have appeared to help.

The whole Normandy crash landing fiasco. Was that part of the dream, or was that somethign that actually happened.

The destruction of the relays. Happen or not?


Would appreciate a few clarifications on this. As it stands it does make sense to me on a base level. But would definitely appreciate some clarification on those finer points.

On one hand this does seem a bit brilliant. on the other hand, my more cynical nature just says that people are tryign to rationalize those endings and are trying to make the evidence fit the conclusion instead of drawing a conclusion from the evidence.

I think all of it  was part of the dream, that  the crashing probably woke shepard up. I really think that he would get indoctrinated/hallucinating when the beam hit him because everything goes slow motion and you get infinite ammo, no armor on etc etc.

[Raveyn]

lavosslayer wrote...

littleork wrote...

KimGulch wrote...

As I was reading this thread, one thing that struck me as odd with the indoctrination theory was that if the reapers are trying to win by either fully controlling (control ending) or somehow merging with/assimilating (synthesis ending) Shepard, why would they give him the option to break free (destroy ending) even if they make sound less appealing than the other two. Then I remembered something I learnt a little while ago about a real world research and experiments into human behaviour, choice and control, and the results were that people would be more susceptible and willing to agree to something if it was presented as a choice rather than an order or a demand. This, coupled with the fact that one of both the biggest selling points and central themes of the ME series has always been choice, well...

They also made the destroy sound bad, by killing geths and edi, especially if you made sure to put them on your side, so the harbinger made it sound like a bad decision in some ways.

He also said that it would kill Shepard too...not to mention this was also the "red" choice...while the "blue" choice was control a la TIM's method of thinking...

Yet this is the only choice that allows Shepard to actually live.....

Hmmmmm......

Modifié par Raveyn, 11 mars 2012 - 05:32 .

[krystalevenstar]

Golferguy758 wrote...

Assuming the ending that we got was a hallucination. I have a list of questions that I would like to be clarified.
When exactly does the hallucination take place? When you get lifted to the god-child/harbinger/whatever? Or when he gets hit by the laser?

A lot of people have been saying that Shepard has been indoctrinated. Exactly when does this take place. It can't be before thessia otherwise the Prothean Vi would not have appeared to help.

The whole Normandy crash landing fiasco. Was that part of the dream, or was that somethign that actually happened.

The destruction of the relays. Happen or not?


Would appreciate a few clarifications on this. As it stands it does make sense to me on a base level. But would definitely appreciate some clarification on those finer points.

On one hand this does seem a bit brilliant. on the other hand, my more cynical nature just says that people are tryign to rationalize those endings and are trying to make the evidence fit the conclusion instead of drawing a conclusion from the evidence.

Everything goes dreamlike as of being struck by Harbinger's laser. This is supported by the fact that Shepard gasping for breath in the rubble seems to be on earth, not Citadel ruins.

[humes spork]

keginkc wrote...

That makes sense.  I probably didn't even read what you originally said.  This is a long thread that's moving fast.

Yeah I brought up Vega's dialog like twenty pages ago, and it took almost ten for folks to really start taking note.

[lookingglassmind]

Golferguy758 wrote...

Assuming the ending that we got was a hallucination. I have a list of questions that I would like to be clarified.
When exactly does the hallucination take place? When you get lifted to the god-child/harbinger/whatever? Or when he gets hit by the laser?

I believe it begins after Shepard gets (almost fatally) hit by Harbinger's beam. I don't think s/he actually moves up into the Citadel. The Citadel is a hallucination.

A lot of people have been saying that Shepard has been indoctrinated. Exactly when does this take place. It can't be before thessia otherwise the Prothean Vi would not have appeared to help.

Agreed. So, given this: I don't think Shepard was ever indoctrinated, except at the very end with the Catalyst. BioWare gives you the option to CHOOSE if Shepard is indoctrinated at this point (it does not happen at any time prior) by allowing you three choices, at least one of which strongly implies indoctrination.

The whole Normandy crash landing fiasco. Was that part of the dream, or was that somethign that actually happened.

Hallucination.

The destruction of the relays. Happen or not?

Happened.

[lavosslayer]

Golferguy758 wrote...

Shepard can't be indoctrinated prior to Thessia otherwise no Prothean VI to help

I don't see how Shepard couldn't be in the process of being indoctrinated after the Arrival DLC...maybe thats why the VI didn't detect it yet because Shepard wasn't fully indoctrinated...and doesn't have the oppertuinity to become so unless they choose to capitulate to the catalyst and either merge or control the reapers...

[GBGriffin]

FugitiveMind wrote...

II think our current working theory is that everything after Shepard takes a laser to the knee never actually happens.

Waking up armorless in slo-mo with an endless pistol clip is the beginning of the dream / hallucination / indoctrination battle for your mind

Also, did Anderson run towards the "Conduit"? It might explain why he's up there if Shepard is imagining it. I thought it was confirmed that TIM was definitely on board, but I dunno about Anderson...that could easily have been Shepard's mind.

Damn it. I feel my hopes rising. Must crush them...I must

[Fat Headed Wolf]

I recall when I first saw the out-of-place (imo) dreams in ME3 I told my buddy that I thought Shep was suffering from indoctrination. When Vega talked about humming I became more certain. I was nearly positive at that point that indoctrination would come into play in the game and was kinda surprised when it didn't.

Now this thread (combined with the.... ending....) has me hoping.

If it was a hallucination how do you expect it to be handle (the continuation to the "real" ending)? DLC, of course, but I'm talking nitty-gritty. I'd be intrigued to see how many of you would want it to go.

[littleork]

GBGriffin wrote...

FugitiveMind wrote...

II think our current working theory is that everything after Shepard takes a laser to the knee never actually happens.

Waking up armorless in slo-mo with an endless pistol clip is the beginning of the dream / hallucination / indoctrination battle for your mind

Also, did Anderson run towards the "Conduit"? It might explain why he's up there if Shepard is imagining it. I thought it was confirmed that TIM was definitely on board, but I dunno about Anderson...that could easily have been Shepard's mind.

Damn it. I feel my hopes rising. Must crush them...I must

Its is because anderson says that he followed her up, yet he was ahead of her.And as she got further, she never saw him at all, also seems to only have 1 way into the control room. They could be more than one but the left and right entries seems blocked to me.

[GBGriffin]

Fat Headed Wolf wrote...

I recall when I first saw the out-of-place (imo) dreams in ME3 I told my buddy that I thought Shep was suffering from indoctrination. When Vega talked about humming I became more certain. I was nearly positive at that point that indoctrination would come into play in the game and was kinda surprised when it didn't.

Now this thread (combined with the.... ending....) has me hoping.

If it was a hallucination how do you expect it to be handle (the continuation to the "real" ending)? DLC, of course, but I'm talking nitty-gritty. I'd be intrigued to see how many of you would want it to go.

Honestly, if this is true....I dunno. I mean, even right now, I don't know how to react,

What I do know is that, even if they were holding onto this and decided to announce it later, I think they need to come forward and confirm or deny it asap.

[Golferguy758]

lookingglassmind wrote...

Golferguy758 wrote...

Assuming the ending that we got was a hallucination. I have a list of questions that I would like to be clarified.
When exactly does the hallucination take place? When you get lifted to the god-child/harbinger/whatever? Or when he gets hit by the laser?

I believe it begins after Shepard gets (almost fatally) hit by Harbinger's beam. I don't think s/he actually moves up into the Citadel. The Citadel is a hallucination.

A lot of people have been saying that Shepard has been indoctrinated. Exactly when does this take place. It can't be before thessia otherwise the Prothean Vi would not have appeared to help.

Agreed. So, given this: I don't think Shepard was ever indoctrinated, except at the very end with the Catalyst. BioWare gives you the option to CHOOSE if Shepard is indoctrinated at this point (it does not happen at any time prior) by allowing you three choices, at least one of which strongly implies indoctrination.

The whole Normandy crash landing fiasco. Was that part of the dream, or was that somethign that actually happened.

Hallucination.

The destruction of the relays. Happen or not?

Happened.

But if the Normandy crashing is a hallucination then the relays couldn't have been destroyed in that ending.  otehrwise the Normandy wouldn't have crashed.

Unless.... The relays being destroyed in the cinematic were actually, for lack of a better word, indoctrination programs being destroyed in Shepard's brain.

And holy crap, either I'm indoctrinated by Bioware into thinkign this is good, or I've gone off the deepend and rationalizing so hard that it makes sense.

[Elenterx]

Do we know the relation of the 2 squad mates that come out of the ship when normandy crashes?
I had Ashley & Javik come out, the two people I talked to the most.

Maybe the reason for that is those are the 2 he wanted to see survive

[lookingglassmind]

GBGriffin wrote...

Also, did Anderson run towards the "Conduit"? It might explain why he's up there if Shepard is imagining it. I thought it was confirmed that TIM was definitely on board, but I dunno about Anderson...that could easily have been Shepard's mind.

Damn it. I feel my hopes rising. Must crush them...I must

Anderson wasn't actually there. If you remember, when Shepard is almost at the beam/inside it, you hear Coates come over the radio, screaming about how their troops got decimated and that no-one made it into the beam. Surely he would have seen if two people, Shepard and Anderson, had managed to make it in? Also, Anderson never attempts to make contact with Hackett once in contact with Shepard upon the Citadel. OOC, for him.

I think Anderson is hallucinated by Shepard, as a device/coping mechanism. He symbolizes the good and the free. Shepard invokes him to help him move forward. Much like in LOTR, when Frodo sees Lady Galadriel in Mordor, helping him rise to his feet when he is about to give up.

[keginkc]

GBGriffin wrote...

 thought it was confirmed that TIM was definitely on board, but I dunno about Anderson...that could easily have been Shepard's mind.

Yeah, they clearly established ingame prior to the end that TIM was going to the Citadel, and that he had undergone some kind of indoctrination-y process that was the fruit of the sanctuary experiements.  His showing up in the end and taking control of Shepard didn't actually phase me at all in that sense.  In fact, I never even harbored the idea that there was any kind of indoctrination/hallucination on Shepard's part until I stumbled across the thread here (and I still think the endings are likely the 'real' endings).

[Recon911PDW]

I also noticed that while in the hallucination, you can actually hear the sound effects of the dream state just like when Shepard is in the black forest trying to find the kid.

Modifié par Recon911PDW, 11 mars 2012 - 05:39 .

[GBGriffin]

Even if the Normandy crash is true, I'm one of those people who can imagine a reunion as long as Shepard lives and is back on earth.

They need to clear the air on this asap so I can either play the game or go back to hating them

[lavosslayer]

Fat Headed Wolf wrote...

I recall when I first saw the out-of-place (imo) dreams in ME3 I told my buddy that I thought Shep was suffering from indoctrination. When Vega talked about humming I became more certain. I was nearly positive at that point that indoctrination would come into play in the game and was kinda surprised when it didn't.

Now this thread (combined with the.... ending....) has me hoping.

If it was a hallucination how do you expect it to be handle (the continuation to the "real" ending)? DLC, of course, but I'm talking nitty-gritty. I'd be intrigued to see how many of you would want it to go.

Honestly I don't think there would be any continuation to Shepards story without choosing the destroy option the other two are totally committing to the indoctrination idea and thus end Shepards ability to make choices, effectively ending the game at that point.

If you choose the destroy mission I think it will go back to Shepard on Earth being pulled up by his Squad and then proceed to go to the Citadel where Shepard faces off against the Illusive Man...after defeating him Shepard and his Squad  will have to face off against Harbinger who is the last sentry before activating the crucible which will effectively destroy the Reapers.

[Sierra163]

Something interesting I saw on twitter.

@jessicamerizan Really, a hallucination/dream? Cause that was trite when Dallas did it, what 30 yrs ago now? #lamelameamelamelamelamelame
Jessica Merizan ‏ @JessicaMerizan Close
@JTFehrenbacher you are free to have your opinion and I'm free to have mine

[Golferguy758]

But if the Normandy crashing is a hallucination then the relays couldn't have been destroyed in that ending. otehrwise the Normandy wouldn't have crashed.

Unless.... The relays being destroyed in the cinematic were actually, for lack of a better word, indoctrination programs being destroyed in Shepard's brain.

And holy crap, either I'm indoctrinated by Bioware into thinkign this is good, or I've gone off the deepend and rationalizing so hard that it makes sense.

[cec_121088]

I'm watching the endings on Youtube and I just noticed something. When the Reaper/god-child/whatever thing speaks, Mark Meer's voice can also be heard. If I'm right, it certainly helps the "it's all a hallucination theory".

skip to 12:20, that's where I noticed it.

[krystalevenstar]

Sierra163 wrote...

Something interesting I saw on twitter.

@jessicamerizan Really, a hallucination/dream? Cause that was trite when Dallas did it, what 30 yrs ago now? #lamelameamelamelamelamelame
Jessica Merizan ‏ @JessicaMerizan Close
@JTFehrenbacher you are free to have your opinion and I'm free to have mine

Oh ****, that's pretty damn close to a confirmation >_>

Edit: He also responded back again saying he hoped it wasn't a hallucination because it would make him angrier and she just sent back a smiley face :happy:

Modifié par krystalevenstar, 11 mars 2012 - 05:45 .

[Elenterx]

Sierra163 wrote...

Something interesting I saw on twitter.

@jessicamerizan Really, a hallucination/dream? Cause that was trite when Dallas did it, what 30 yrs ago now? #lamelameamelamelamelamelame
Jessica Merizan ‏ @JessicaMerizan Close
@JTFehrenbacher you are free to have your opinion and I'm free to have mine