57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Evil_medved]

jackncoke28 wrote...

Had another thought. The destroy option isn't an option given to you by the catalyst, but instead it is what remains of your free will, saving Anderson from getting killed by TIM is another sign of this. Why else would saving Anderson allow you to see the breath ending with only 4000 ems instead of 5000. Anderson represents your will to fight, and him surviving longer ups your chances of breaking indoctrination sooner, needing 1000 less ems to survive destroy.

I thought of that. That kids voice has part of sheps voice because Shepards will mixes up with harbinger's and sheps own mind forces him to give us this option.

[Capeo]

JulienJaden wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Fledgey wrote...
Scripts can change, and things can be leaked on purpose to create a false expectation.

And Bioware did WTC.

Seriously, listen to yourself.

Don't be ridiculous. The US government did that.


Anyway, alright, let's start at zero: If every ending is real, how can Shepard survive the station exploding around him, shields failing (thus, no atmosphere), and, if we assume that this scene takes place on Earth, re-entry into the planet's atmosphere?
If you can give me a satisfying answer based on what we see in the current endings that doesn't involve teleportation or space magic, I'm willing to accept it as a valid point.
Just don't go around trolling everyone when there's plotholes the size of Nevada.

You answered your own question.  Plot hole.  The game is rife with ridiculous plotholes yet people on this thread seem to think that right at the zero hour BW suddenly pulled their crap together and got clever on the endings that have been the same for 8 months in the very least.

You're talking about a game series where the antagonist has already been brought back from the dead and that in which the entire trilogy is resolved using space magic.  ME is extraordininarly soft sci-fi and has always been full of space magic and incongruities. 

As for that one scene specifically?  It's tossing fans a bone because they were afraid everyone would complain if there was no way to have Shep survive and Destroy is the ONLY ending that allows for that.  That's all it means.  Nothing more.  The other two endings consume Shep.  Everyone on here is using circular logic and putting the cart before the horse.  The simple answer is that Shep got back to the teleportation beam somehow.  The same kind of somehow that allowed the citadel to suddenly get to earth or the same somehow that allows the engineering impossibility of building the Crucible or the same kind of somehow that stops the Reapers from simply taking the Citadel from the start as has been their plan millions of times before or the same kind of somehow that allows the Reapers to simply ignore the incoming Crucible instead of destroying it.

[byne]

killnoob wrote...


It seems to me you still don't get it.

If the destroy option is supposed to be Shepard's resolve to break free from indoctrination,

then you're basically saying this:

Harbringer try to control Shepard by planting images in his head

Shepard breaks free, but instead of waking up he takes a few moments to imagine



now take a moment to watch this

Is there ANY indication that Shepard is imagining things?

We see the crucible turn red.

We see the cinematics.

Are you seriously gonna grasp one straw and claims that he imagined everything the child said would happen?

If we are going with the theory that the child itself is all in Shepard's head, I dont see how her imagining what he said happening is grasping at straws.

[Fiannawolf]

*looks at galaxy map* Theres 4 systems that have red lines leading to reaper Icons that I cant jump to.

They appeared that way some time in act 2.

[cobnut]

lodgik wrote...

HOLY S***T !!!



The 1m1 on the metalic pole it's INVERTED just like seing it in a mirror, i don't know if it's something but contless movie and books used this to tell you're not in the reality.

and another thing, look closely at


and



From what i take you're basically at the connection point between the citadel and the crucible, right. And well you can't see any type of protection from the void because it's the connection point, implying that commander sherpard is standing in a room completely exposed to the void of space. secondo, the beam of blue light connecting the citadel and the crucible, I assume must pass throught the lenght of each other in a horizontal fashion, so unless the beam curves at some point it emplie that shepard is standing on A WALL on the citadel opposite to the crucible to see the beam perpendiculary and all that without the help of functionning gravity boot since is armor is ripped to pieces O.O

kudos to you!

[Lemondish]

killnoob wrote...

It seems to me you still don't get it.

If the destroy option is supposed to be Shepard's resolve to break free from indoctrination,

then you're basically saying this:

Harbringer try to control Shepard by planting images in his head

Shepard breaks free, but instead of waking up he takes a few moments to imagine



now take a moment to watch this

Is there ANY indication that Shepard is imagining things?

We see the crucible turn red.

We see the cinematics.

Are you seriously gonna grasp one straw and claims that he imagined everything the child said would happen?

Perhaps the decision to show this is Harbingers attempts to continue controlling YOU!

[BlackDragonBane]

lex0r11 wrote...

and i think we should keep this thread going, despite all this so people can at least see what the OP has compiled.

All of Byne's hard work has been moved and recompiled in a new theorycrafting home to preserve it from all of this inane hatred that has poisoned this discussion topic. We're continuing dicussion and debate of Byne's theory there.

[AntariuzX]

Can somebody clarify one thing for me, that makes me question indoctrination theory. If it is all a dream indeed, Shepard is indoctrinated, then why even give him the option to destroy reapers? If reapers got into his mind, then they won, the end. Reapers are just giving him option to kill themselves?

[Gamingtrek12025]

People really should read the first post. Answers a lot of the questions. Also, if you don't agree with the theory than fine, but give us an actual reason. I saw this earlier in the posts and it fits here, don't just give an answer that is "Bioware is teh stupids".

[killnoob]

lex0r11 wrote...

killnoob wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

killnoob wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

killnoob wrote...

So Harbringer failed to overtake his mind, if he chooses destroyer?

Then explain to me why does Shepard still sees the reapers getting destroyed, the normandy crushed into some random planet like all other endings,

If he's supposed to stop hallucinating as soon as Harbringer fails?

What's the point of seeing all that?

because it ends only when he wakes after the ruble. maybe harbinger thinks this is what he wants to see to take his mind off it's *defensive* mode. tricking the mind into relaxation might help indoctrination. why not?

What on earth are you talking about?

Mass relays getting destroyed all geth wiped out are relaxations?

Huh??

who knows what bioware thinks what makes the mind susceptible to indoctrination. neither of us knows how a 'mind****' works best. or what would you do to make the mind weak? simply making it a happy ending in his head sounds to easy and could give it away.

There is no MINDBREAK

The endings are terrible writings.

They're not intended for you to think Shepard is being indoctrinated.

If they are, then Bioware has a megaton of explaining to do.

you know we are discussing here, right? until bioware denies or confirms or some obvious datamining happens, there will be no proof. you seem like you can proof your point, but i don't see it.

Right.

Except everywhere i go I see people saying 'oh its all hallucinations"

Seriously,

this is just a theory, and one that has only a few supporting evidence, which can be easily disproved.
It's like a conspiracy theory gone out of control, and it's ridiculous.

[Sajuro]

killnoob wrote...

Deitylink wrote...

killnoob wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

killnoob wrote...

So Harbringer failed to overtake his mind, if he chooses destroyer?

Then explain to me why does Shepard still sees the reapers getting destroyed, the normandy crushed into some random planet like all other endings,

If he's supposed to stop hallucinating as soon as Harbringer fails?

What's the point of seeing all that?

because it ends only when he wakes after the ruble. maybe harbinger thinks this is what he wants to see to take his mind off it's *defensive* mode. tricking the mind into relaxation might help indoctrination. why not?

What on earth are you talking about?

Mass relays getting destroyed all geth wiped out are relaxations?

Huh??

Shepherd imagines the Mass Relays explode because that's what the child says will happen. He also doesn't imagine EDI leave the ship because the child says all synthetics will die.

It seems to me like you havent read ANYTHING on the board and simply just arguing out of anger that you don't understand the ending. And to that I say, you have lost, game over for you man.

It seems to me you still don't get it.

If the destroy option is supposed to be Shepard's resolve to break free from indoctrination,

then you're basically saying this:

Harbringer try to control Shepard by planting images in his head

Shepard breaks free, but instead of waking up he takes a few moments to imagine



now take a moment to watch this

Is there ANY indication that Shepard is imagining things?

We see the crucible turn red.

We see the cinematics.

Are you seriously gonna grasp one straw and claims that he imagined everything the child said would happen?

As the explosion was going to envelope Shepard, he thought back to his squadmates and what would happen to Joker and everyone, look up Occurence at Owl Creek Bridge for reference. He might not have imagined it all exactly like that, just like the grandfather probably didn't tell the child every detail in his stories from the stargazer scene.

[inFam0us]

I support the Indoctrination theory, but after reading the interview with Casey...
First time here btw.

[H3xTech]

killnoob wrote...

Are you seriously gonna grasp one straw and claims that he imagined everything the child said would happen?

Is it hard to imagine that? Just an explosion, reapers dying and his crew to escape?

[Capeo]

Deitylink wrote...

killnoob wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

killnoob wrote...

So Harbringer failed to overtake his mind, if he chooses destroyer?

Then explain to me why does Shepard still sees the reapers getting destroyed, the normandy crushed into some random planet like all other endings,

If he's supposed to stop hallucinating as soon as Harbringer fails?

What's the point of seeing all that?

because it ends only when he wakes after the ruble. maybe harbinger thinks this is what he wants to see to take his mind off it's *defensive* mode. tricking the mind into relaxation might help indoctrination. why not?

What on earth are you talking about?

Mass relays getting destroyed all geth wiped out are relaxations?

Huh??

Shepherd imagines the Mass Relays explode because that's what the child says will happen. He also doesn't imagine EDI leave the ship because the child says all synthetics will die.

It seems to me like you havent read ANYTHING on the board and simply just arguing out of anger that you don't understand the ending. And to that I say, you have lost, game over for you man.

Oh, please, you don't "understand the ending".  You're making crap up that doesn't fit the evidence because you can't face the simple fact that BW wrote crappy endings.

[byne]

AntariuzX wrote...

Can somebody clarify one thing for me, that makes me question indoctrination theory. If it is all a dream indeed, Shepard is indoctrinated, then why even give him the option to destroy reapers? If reapers got into his mind, then they won, the end. Reapers are just giving him option to kill themselves?

Most people are of the opinion that choosing destroy is just Shepard strengthening his/her resolve to continue what s/he set out to do, and is thus the option representative of resisting indoctrination. It wouldnt destroy the Reapers in reality, it just allows Shepard to wake up and continue his/her mission.

[Lemondish]

Capeo wrote...

You answered your own question.  Plot hole.  The game is rife with ridiculous plotholes yet people on this thread seem to think that right at the zero hour BW suddenly pulled their crap together and got clever on the endings that have been the same for 8 months in the very least.

I'm only going to mention this part of your post, but don't assume I agree with the rest

There are very few true plotholes in Mass Effect that are not explained through the codex entries or other forms of assumed cannon (accepted books, comics, etc). Furthermore, I do not believe you were part of development, so your assumed timetables on how to develop a game's story are highly irrelevant.

[Noob451]

AntariuzX wrote...

Can somebody clarify one thing for me, that makes me question indoctrination theory. If it is all a dream indeed, Shepard is indoctrinated, then why even give him the option to destroy reapers? If reapers got into his mind, then they won, the end. Reapers are just giving him option to kill themselves?

we've answered this countless times,  It's in Shepard's mind right?   His intent was to destroy the reapers all along, it wouldnt just be missing from his mind.

another answer to that question was that it would be suspicious  if the only choices shepard had was synthesis and control, both things that indoctrinated characters suggested.

[Evil_medved]

AntariuzX wrote...

Can somebody clarify one thing for me, that makes me question indoctrination theory. If it is all a dream indeed, Shepard is indoctrinated, then why even give him the option to destroy reapers? If reapers got into his mind, then they won, the end. Reapers are just giving him option to kill themselves?

The idea is that he fight indoctrination here, he is not lost his mind yet. His will and harbingers mixes up and decision that shep makes determines if he breaks free or he falls.

[ceruleancrescent]

Noob451 wrote...

lodgik wrote...

HOLY S***T !!!



The 1m1 on the metalic pole it's INVERTED just like seing it in a mirror, i don't know if it's something but contless movie and books used this to tell you're not in the reality.

and another thing, look closely at


and



From what i take you're basically at the connection point between the citadel and the crucible, right. And well you can't see any type of protection from the void because it's the connection point, implying that commander sherpard is standing in a room completely exposed to the void of space. secondo, the beam of blue light connecting the citadel and the crucible, I assume must pass throught the lenght of each other in a horizontal fashion, so unless the beam curves at some point it emplie that shepard is standing on A WALL on the citadel opposite to the crucible to see the beam perpendiculary and all that without the help of functionning gravity boot since is armor is ripped to pieces O.O

isn't this in the OP?

They're my pictures from my post I made 250 pages ago that was put on the OP...

[Mr.Burke]

Why indoctrinate him when you can just use the beam of death?

[Lemondish]

Capeo wrote...

Oh, please, you don't "understand the ending".  You're making crap up that doesn't fit the evidence because you can't face the simple fact that BW wrote crappy endings.

Just as you can't face the evidence that there may be more to this. Confirmation bias, anyone?

[H3xTech]

AntariuzX wrote...

Can somebody clarify one thing for me, that makes me question indoctrination theory. If it is all a dream indeed, Shepard is indoctrinated, then why even give him the option to destroy reapers? If reapers got into his mind, then they won, the end. Reapers are just giving him option to kill themselves?

Because they haven't break Shepard's will yet and trying to convince him to give in?

[crimsontotem]

Capeo wrote...

Deitylink wrote...

killnoob wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

killnoob wrote...

So Harbringer failed to overtake his mind, if he chooses destroyer?

Then explain to me why does Shepard still sees the reapers getting destroyed, the normandy crushed into some random planet like all other endings,

If he's supposed to stop hallucinating as soon as Harbringer fails?

What's the point of seeing all that?

because it ends only when he wakes after the ruble. maybe harbinger thinks this is what he wants to see to take his mind off it's *defensive* mode. tricking the mind into relaxation might help indoctrination. why not?

What on earth are you talking about?

Mass relays getting destroyed all geth wiped out are relaxations?

Huh??

Shepherd imagines the Mass Relays explode because that's what the child says will happen. He also doesn't imagine EDI leave the ship because the child says all synthetics will die.

It seems to me like you havent read ANYTHING on the board and simply just arguing out of anger that you don't understand the ending. And to that I say, you have lost, game over for you man.

Oh, please, you don't "understand the ending".  You're making crap up that doesn't fit the evidence because you can't face the simple fact that BW wrote crappy endings.

I believe we have found quite good numbers of evidence to back our theory... don't call them 'crap' that is downright insult.

[killnoob]

AntariuzX wrote...

Can somebody clarify one thing for me, that makes me question indoctrination theory. If it is all a dream indeed, Shepard is indoctrinated, then why even give him the option to destroy reapers? If reapers got into his mind, then they won, the end. Reapers are just giving him option to kill themselves?

Supposedly, they're saying that

Everything is played out in his head.

The reapers are TRYING to indoctrinate him, with a super long build up (with anderson, with TIM, and everything else) in between before getting to the point.

IF you choose destroy,

You defeat the reapers control and wake up.

But that's not before you hallucinate some more about reapers and mass relay getting blown up.

[byne]

Mr.Burke wrote...

Why indoctrinate him when you can just use the beam of death?

Harbinger has always wanted Shepard alive since ME2.