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[noobcannon]

killnoob wrote...

JulienJaden wrote...

Capeo wrote...

JulienJaden wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Fledgey wrote...
Scripts can change, and things can be leaked on purpose to create a false expectation.

And Bioware did WTC.

Seriously, listen to yourself.

Don't be ridiculous. The US government did that.


Anyway, alright, let's start at zero: If every ending is real, how can Shepard survive the station exploding around him, shields failing (thus, no atmosphere), and, if we assume that this scene takes place on Earth, re-entry into the planet's atmosphere?
If you can give me a satisfying answer based on what we see in the current endings that doesn't involve teleportation or space magic, I'm willing to accept it as a valid point.
Just don't go around trolling everyone when there's plotholes the size of Nevada.

You answered your own question.  Plot hole.  The game is rife with ridiculous plotholes yet people on this thread seem to think that right at the zero hour BW suddenly pulled their crap together and got clever on the endings that have been the same for 8 months in the very least.

You're talking about a game series where the antagonist has already been brought back from the dead and that in which the entire trilogy is resolved using space magic.  ME is extraordininarly soft sci-fi and has always been full of space magic and incongruities. 

As for that one scene specifically?  It's tossing fans a bone because they were afraid everyone would complain if there was no way to have Shep survive and Destroy is the ONLY ending that allows for that.  That's all it means.  Nothing more.  The other two endings consume Shep.  Everyone on here is using circular logic and putting the cart before the horse.  The simple answer is that Shep got back to the teleportation beam somehow.  The same kind of somehow that allowed the citadel to suddenly get to earth or the same somehow that allows the engineering impossibility of building the Crucible or the same kind of somehow that stops the Reapers from simply taking the Citadel from the start as has been their plan millions of times before or the same kind of somehow that allows the Reapers to simply ignore the incoming Crucible instead of destroying it.

Which antagonist was brought back from the dead? Saren never died. TIM never died (as far as I know).
Yes, the protagonist gets resurrected, but at incredible financial costs, because of some lucky coincidences and so much technology to repair him/her that it's a miracle none of Shepard's enemies just uses a magnet to incapacitate him/her.
However, within the game's lore, it makes sense. It's borderline, granted, but it made sense.

Also, we don't understand what the Citadel is, exactly. Who says it can't move? Who says it can't jump?
And who said the Crucible was impossible to build? The plans were hard to decipher and it took thousands of engineers and scientists and huge amounts of raw materials and production facilities, but those you partially gather during your campaign. That's why none of us complain about it. Everything is relatively sound up to those final minutes.

Now, the plotholes make no sense, and with Bioware being the company it is, I don't think they'd intentionally mess this up for no reason whatsoever. With EA calling the shots, it seems plausible they were under time pressure and put together a sloppy ending so they could ship in time. They didn't do anything they promised and, up until now, they haven't really told us anything definite about it. They just continue playing coy, with Hudson announcing there will be DLC in the future.


I just don't think they'd finish the trilogy with something so badly written and put together that several dozen people could come up with something better in a matter of hours after they finished the game (and I'm not only talking about the indoctrination theory; Arkis' alternative ending was very well put together, too) without having a reason for it and possibly working on a significant improvement. They just can't afford doing that. I mean, you guys disagree with us, but you're pissed about the plotholes too, right? How many customers would Bioware lose because of this? How many don't speak up but actually finish the game and think that this was absolutely horrible (not because of the endings themselves but because of everything that is just plain wrong)?

And you know what? It's 100 % pefectly okay for you to believe the indoctrination theory so long as you don't treat it like a solid ending with rock hard evidence because there ISN"T any.

huh?

[Noob451]

killnoob wrote...

JulienJaden wrote...

Capeo wrote...

JulienJaden wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Fledgey wrote...
Scripts can change, and things can be leaked on purpose to create a false expectation.

And Bioware did WTC.

Seriously, listen to yourself.

Don't be ridiculous. The US government did that.


Anyway, alright, let's start at zero: If every ending is real, how can Shepard survive the station exploding around him, shields failing (thus, no atmosphere), and, if we assume that this scene takes place on Earth, re-entry into the planet's atmosphere?
If you can give me a satisfying answer based on what we see in the current endings that doesn't involve teleportation or space magic, I'm willing to accept it as a valid point.
Just don't go around trolling everyone when there's plotholes the size of Nevada.

You answered your own question.  Plot hole.  The game is rife with ridiculous plotholes yet people on this thread seem to think that right at the zero hour BW suddenly pulled their crap together and got clever on the endings that have been the same for 8 months in the very least.

You're talking about a game series where the antagonist has already been brought back from the dead and that in which the entire trilogy is resolved using space magic.  ME is extraordininarly soft sci-fi and has always been full of space magic and incongruities. 

As for that one scene specifically?  It's tossing fans a bone because they were afraid everyone would complain if there was no way to have Shep survive and Destroy is the ONLY ending that allows for that.  That's all it means.  Nothing more.  The other two endings consume Shep.  Everyone on here is using circular logic and putting the cart before the horse.  The simple answer is that Shep got back to the teleportation beam somehow.  The same kind of somehow that allowed the citadel to suddenly get to earth or the same somehow that allows the engineering impossibility of building the Crucible or the same kind of somehow that stops the Reapers from simply taking the Citadel from the start as has been their plan millions of times before or the same kind of somehow that allows the Reapers to simply ignore the incoming Crucible instead of destroying it.

Which antagonist was brought back from the dead? Saren never died. TIM never died (as far as I know).
Yes, the protagonist gets resurrected, but at incredible financial costs, because of some lucky coincidences and so much technology to repair him/her that it's a miracle none of Shepard's enemies just uses a magnet to incapacitate him/her.
However, within the game's lore, it makes sense. It's borderline, granted, but it made sense.

Also, we don't understand what the Citadel is, exactly. Who says it can't move? Who says it can't jump?
And who said the Crucible was impossible to build? The plans were hard to decipher and it took thousands of engineers and scientists and huge amounts of raw materials and production facilities, but those you partially gather during your campaign. That's why none of us complain about it. Everything is relatively sound up to those final minutes.

Now, the plotholes make no sense, and with Bioware being the company it is, I don't think they'd intentionally mess this up for no reason whatsoever. With EA calling the shots, it seems plausible they were under time pressure and put together a sloppy ending so they could ship in time. They didn't do anything they promised and, up until now, they haven't really told us anything definite about it. They just continue playing coy, with Hudson announcing there will be DLC in the future.


I just don't think they'd finish the trilogy with something so badly written and put together that several dozen people could come up with something better in a matter of hours after they finished the game (and I'm not only talking about the indoctrination theory; Arkis' alternative ending was very well put together, too) without having a reason for it and possibly working on a significant improvement. They just can't afford doing that. I mean, you guys disagree with us, but you're pissed about the plotholes too, right? How many customers would Bioware lose because of this? How many don't speak up but actually finish the game and think that this was absolutely horrible (not because of the endings themselves but because of everything that is just plain wrong)?

And you know what? It's 100 % pefectly okay for you to believe the indoctrination theory so long as you don't treat it like a solid ending with rock hard evidence because there ISN"T any.

that's why this is a theory, genius....

[Noob451]

Psyro wrote...

Anyone notice the similiar appearance in Matrix?

Red pill: wake up and see that u lived in a dream world?
Red choice: Destroy Reaper won the fight of indoctrination, woke up of the Illusion (Ending scene shepard is alife

I could see that

[Delular]

People losing their ****.
This is the most brilliant thing to be done ever.
Sorry if you do not feel the same but I love BioWare fort his Inception game

[Lemondish]

Capeo wrote...

Lemondish wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Lemondish wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Oh, please, you don't "understand the ending".  You're making crap up that doesn't fit the evidence because you can't face the simple fact that BW wrote crappy endings.

Just as you can't face the evidence that there may be more to this. Confirmation bias, anyone?

If there actual evidence I would face it.  Just a note, actual evidence is a script.  That's real evidence.  The game outright telling you you ended the Reaper threat is real evidence.  The epilogue firing no matter you choice is real evidence.

A leaked script from ages ago. There is no evidence to suggest that this script hasn't been changed drastically since then. A certain of level of iteration is not only expected, but necessary. Clinging to it for dear life, even when the final product is much more relevant AND recent simply shows that you refuse to accept any evidence contrary to your accepted hypothesis.

The game has indoctrinated you against us. Fight it!

The script is exactly the same.  The endings are exactly the same.  By the time it was leaked there was no way to make substantial changes.  So your argument is, though the script has the exact same endings, mentions only TIM being indoctrinated (as shown in the game), says Synergy is the result of perfect game (Joker shown smiling at EDI at the end of the game), BW at some point decided to slip in some bizarre "it's all a dream" ending?  Even though the direct evidence written across the screen after the credits says otherwise?  Even though the direct evidence of the epilogue says otherwise?

Sorry, parsimony excludes this theory.

Synergy is not Synthesis. Stop assuming this.

Furthermore, after control, Joker smiled at EDI in my game as well. Does this suggest control is the best ending?! 

That message you refer to is simply another way to coral the sheep into never questioning anything.

[IronSabbath88]

BioWare is teh poopiez. No wai dey r dat smart.

[N3vDawg]

http://i.imgur.com/tQlte.jpg

[Valk72]

SomeBug wrote...

All you are doing is constructing the most elaborate excuse for bad writing the world has ever seen. You're applying a level of artistic intelligence to BioWare that they do not deserve.

They wrote a bad ending. They let you down. And your response is to spend ludicrous amounts of time and effort trying to excuse what they did by suggesting they're not super dumb, they're actually super smart.

Don't give them such an out, please. They don't deserve it.

Well, we, ME fans are just very loyal, so much that we are willing to believe in this theory.

[galaxy366]

orionshield wrote...

  
ALso in the begining the little boy with the allinace fighter toy in his hand has no shadow on the ground but when the

scene cuts to shepard you immediately see shepard's hand make shadow over his face..............the little boy isn't real

and the AI as well, when TIM used mind control on shepard,,,,,,,,later, shepard dreams the last 10 minutes in the

game,,,,he actually passed out next to anderson and when he had a loss of blood shown on his left hand,,,,he really

passed out,,,,,,,did you notice the TIM was moved and was not in the same body position he was before? wasn't TIM

facing earth when he last spoke, but in shepards dream he is laying down now in a differnet body position,,,,the

ending is not the true ending!

the boy does cast a shadow on the ground.
Stop right here! > http://www.youtube.c...QPqWY53EI#t=86s

[Fledgey]

Tygur wrote...

Still thinking that indoctrination doesn't actually knock Shep out. The beam hits close enough to him to send him flying into rubble and knocks him out. Any time Shep is out or dreaming, the indoctrination seeps in. Its like a brain disease, the reapers at this point arent actively targeting him but he is knocked out and his mind has been slowly poisoned with reaper stuff to take him through this whole citadel scenario. Like the forest in his dreams. His own mind constructs it.

This is exactly it. Good work.

[Delular]

User 7: "Its not that the ending was taken in the wrong direction its that it makes NO SENSE. Ashley was on the Normandy? she [was] with me."
@masseffect: "Probably a good thing to be cautious of." 

\\

My take is that if Shep saw his love interst lives he can die/give up.

That sound incorrect?

[Evil_medved]

N3vDawg wrote...

http://i.imgur.com/tQlte.jpg

Wait, what.

[erlind0186]

This has been previously stated but to some of us, the 1M1 thing is a clue as to when the real ending comes out. M is the 13th letter in the alphabet. 1+13+1=15. It's speculated that due to the script leaks and what not that on the 15th, the release date for the Asian version of the game, is when they'll release the real ending. That way the real ending is out at the same time for everyone.

[WizenSlinky0]

lex0r11 wrote...

killnoob wrote...


Right because you can tell the difference between rubbles. Because you know what the entire citadel is made of.
Because there's absolutely 0 chance that humans bring in their own technology to Citadel in order to adopt better.

Honestly.

again, but you too can't prove your side. i don't mean to be rude or anything, but why don't you go in one of the threads discussing how the indoctrination theory DOENS'T work. just sayin'.

*sigh* No one can prove their side. Ever. Even if bioware released something that used this EXACT framework...you just did all the work for them. They just had to take down their notes and go build it. Not that they would, but I'm saying once it's out there it's no longer a prediction but a suggestion.

There are holes in the current theory. Is it better than what we actually got? I'd say it requires more headcanon but that if you apply it liberally, then yes, it is. But that does not make it fact or correct or definitely what Bioware did. It still remains a theory. I think many are just somewhat sick of people throwing it around as the "actual ending" when it's not. No matter how much you believe it to be true the facts don't fall into place well enough. Just be glad everyone found enough evidence to upgrade it from conspiracy theory to an actual theory.

As for why people don't go to other threads...that does not promote healthy discussion. What's the point in posting in threads that will only draw in people who agree with you? Not much of a point, really. Both you, and I, should want dissenting opinions in order to help develop our perspective.

[Lost Cipher]

Lemondish wrote...

Zaknaberrnon wrote...

moar info on the 1m1 thing, quoting form another thread and adding my own bit after:

F3Zero wrote...

TIMIRIEL sent this to me, anyone want to have at it?

Might help make sense of what BIOWARE wants us to think.

1M1 - i think that's a more inconspicuous way of writing this 1*(M^(-1))

(the formula is used in optics, it actually stands for inverse of focal length, or dioptry,
or convergence...

In Logic, convergence is also the notion that a sequence of transformations come to the same conclusion, no matter what order they are performed in...

maybe it's too far fetched, i don't know
sadly, it fits to well with the "multiple" endings

And heres the clip:


 

my part:

I looked up the definitions for 'convergence' on wikidictionary to see if there were any other interesting meanings, and came across something familiar:

"convergence (countable and uncountable; plural convergences)

   1: The act of moving toward union or uniformity.
        A meeting place.

   2: The intersection of three electron beams for red, green and blue onto a single pixel in a CRT.
    3: (mathematics) The process of approaching some limiting value.
  4:   (physiology) The coordinated focusing of the eyes, especially at short range.
    5: (biology) The evolution of similar structures or traits in unrelated species in similar environments; convergent      evolution.
   6: The merging of distinct technologies, industries, or devices into a unified whole.
"
hmm three different colored explosions for three different choices...

http://en.wiktionary...iki/convergence

That is brilliant. Now...what does it MEAN?!

I understand that we all want the ending to make sense. But do not do this, they are not that clever. And when it comes out that this hallucination theory was wrong and the endings just suck... Everyone is going to be more upset.

I understand that in this thread I am in the minority, but it makes logically more sense that they just screwed up. And that by not talking about it, people will still buy their game. Tomorrow is going to come and go, and so will April... and then May and the rest of the year.

Its over...

[jackncoke28]

He didn't wipe out the reapers in the destroy ending, IT WAS IN HIS HEAD. Destroy is shepard asserting his will to fight, with enough ems shepard buys himself time to fight the indoctrination with out being killed. The other two "choices" are you giving in to the reaper logic much like saren, and TIM. Reapers want Shepard indoctrinated rather than killed because of what shepard represent to the resistance, he is what brought all the species together, martyring him doesn't diminish that, indoctrinating home does, not only in effecting the moral of the alliance, but also in Shepard's persuasive abilities now being used for reaper ends. the prothean war against reapers lasted at least a couple of decades, protheans had a major disadvantage do to their homogeneous empire, yet they still lasted as long as they did. This cycle has a better chance of defeating the reapers, so reapers will take any advantage they can to end the war quickly.

[AxisEvolve]

[killnoob]

JulienJaden wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Lemondish wrote...

killnoob wrote...

galaxy366 wrote...

killnoob wrote...

AntariuzX wrote...

Can somebody clarify one thing for me, that makes me question indoctrination theory. If it is all a dream indeed, Shepard is indoctrinated, then why even give him the option to destroy reapers? If reapers got into his mind, then they won, the end. Reapers are just giving him option to kill themselves?

Supposedly, they're saying that

Everything is played out in his head.

The reapers are TRYING to indoctrinate him, with a super long build up (with anderson, with TIM, and everything else) in between before getting to the point.

IF you choose destroy,

You defeat the reapers control and wake up.

But that's not before you hallucinate some more about reapers and mass relay getting blown up.

Then why do we see Shepard alive under rocks? DO KNOW, you don't hear weapons firing, but more metally sound and other strange and creepy noise. Sound more like the Citadel then  Eartg

because Shepard somehow survived after wiping out all reapers, and Shepard is in the ruins of the citadel?
he didn't sacrifice his body if he choose the destroy option.

The ruins of the citadel? Which part do you think is made of cement and rebar?

Right because you can tell the difference between rubbles. Because you know what the entire citadel is made of.
Because there's absolutely 0 chance that humans bring in their own technology to Citadel in order to adopt better.

Honestly.

But he can't survive that explosion. He's at the heart of it. He's outside, only protected by a shield that keeps the air from being vented into space, if it's real. Either way, even Shepard can't survive this, regardless of what the citadel is made of.

Please.

You can believe Cererbus brought Shepard back to life.
You can believe Shepard survived quite a number of situation where he should've been dead.
You can't believe Shepard somehow managed to survive the explosion?

[crimsontotem]

killnoob wrote...

Evil_medved wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Mr.Burke wrote...

Why indoctrinate him when you can just use the beam of death?

Exactly.

Killing him would be MUCH easier consider how he's unconscious.

He was unconscious once, for DAYS during Arrival.

Did they killed him?

Nope.

Oh right.

So when Harbringer is shooting lasers to stop everyone from getting to the beam, he wasn't trying to kill anyone, he's trying to indoctrinate them using the laser.

C'mon = =

okay i said this before about 200 pages before....

remember what TIM said to Shepard when he was in Ceberus HQ? Ceberus is not just an organization, it is an idea and idea never dies... this quote is very symbolic and important.

throughout the game, you can see commander Shepard has become not just a war hero, he has become larger than life, he has become a concept (If you saved Wrex, he says that from the day the genophage is cured, the word Shepard will mean a "hero". This is very important) that represents a free will, determination and resistance to live. 

Sure, it would be easier than flipping one's hand to kill Shepard to Harby... However, Harbinger knows that kiling Shepard will acoomplish small thing. Because an idea of unification against a great unknown will never die.... unless you break or bend that idea itself to see it your way. Think of how devastated the allied force would be when they realize Shepard is working for the Reapers.   

[MatthewGold]

N3vDawg wrote...

http://i.imgur.com/tQlte.jpg

Odd, I never got that.

[Lemondish]

Lost Cipher wrote...

Iunderstand that we all want the ending to make sense. But do not do this, they are not that clever. And when it comes out that this hallucination theory was wrong and the endings just suck... Everyone is going to be more upset.

I understand that in this thread I am in the minority, but it makes logically more sense that they just screwed up. And that by not talking about it, people will still buy their game. Tomorrow is going to come and go, and so will April... and then May and the rest of the year.

Its over...

Have hope. Hope...a major theme for this title. Hope, what Shepard uses to unite a galaxy.

Hope.

[Richard STIHL]

Capeo is a ***

[NotCras]

Delular wrote...

User 7: "Its not that the ending was taken in the wrong direction its that it makes NO SENSE. Ashley was on the Normandy? she [was] with me."
@masseffect: "Probably a good thing to be cautious of." 

My take is that if Shep saw his love interst lives he can die/give up.

That sound incorrect?

That makes sense, the reapers want him to think that everyone is safe and ok, when in reality its not at all.  That way he can justify going against his word that he was going to destroy the reapers and go to control them or combine with them