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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#11676
killnoob

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StillOverrated wrote...

Some million people probably already brought this up (a hundred million times, I wager) but if the indoctrination theory is right, then this just makes everything worse.


Its not gonna be right because at this point, if Bioware comes out and say "Yeah The indoctrination theory is what we're going for,"

They will seriously make a bunch of people (inlcuding me) look like idiots.

They risk pissing off their fan base even more.

Pretty sure they're not dumb enough to do that.

Now BW,

Please don't prove me wrong :(

#11677
LenabotSE

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Auresta wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Hurricane Brad wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Right, and spending three games trying to do that wasn't enough.
They have to keep trying until the very end, where Shepard actually has a chance to destroy every reapers in existence.

but because they're dumb machines they' cant reason:

Oh let's just try one more time before he blows us up if that doesn't work we'll kill him.
After he blows us up.



What exactly are you not understanding here?  According to the theory (or at least my interpretation of it) the reapers are not at risk of blowing up, because it's not actually happening.  Shepard is still unconscious in the pile of rubble near the beam in London.  HE IS NOT ON THE CITADEL.  They would not risk trying to indoctrinate him if he had his finger on the button, so to speak.  Because he is vulnerable and not an immediate threat to them, Harbinger figures "why the hell not" and makes an attempt to indoctrinate him.  Harbinger has always had a personal interest in taking Shepard alive if possible, so that's why he doesn't just finish him off.


Ofc they wouldn't try to indoctrinate him when he has his finger on the button.
IT'd be too late anyway.

In case if you haven't noticed, Harbringer tries to kill him by shooting LASERS at him, to prevent him from reaching the beam.

Are you saying that after Shepard got knocked out he suddenly has a change of heart AGAIN and decide to indoctrinate him one last time?

Honestly, that'd be the worst writing I've ever seen in fiction if it happens to be true.


Also

Read the highlighted part.

And gimme one reason why I should take your interpetation as fact.







Can someone address this?



The game make special effort (during the Lawson mission) to point out that adrenaline is the most useful tool the Reapers have for amplifying and enhancing their indoctrination efforts in organics.  Few things pump adrenaline through you faster than almost getting hit with an alien deathray.  Harbinger has always wanted Shepard alive.

Modifié par LenabotSE, 14 mars 2012 - 06:55 .


#11678
Auresta

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killnoob wrote...

Auresta wrote...

killnoob wrote...


Ofc they wouldn't try to indoctrinate him when he has his finger on the button.
IT'd be too late anyway.

In case if you haven't noticed, Harbringer tries to kill him by shooting LASERS at him, to prevent him from reaching the beam.

Are you saying that after Shepard got knocked out he suddenly has a change of heart AGAIN and decide to indoctrinate him one last time?

Honestly, that'd be the worst writing I've ever seen in fiction if it happens to be true.




Can someone address this?


Yea, can someone address this, I'm interested.


I'd argue somewhere along the lines of the fact that Shepard has always been exceptionally strong in mind. It wouldn't strike me as odd or weird if the Reapers tried to break him down physically and mentally. If you break his will/mind, it's the ultimate victory for the Reapers. But if someone has a better argument, please bring it up. I'm not fit to argue right now.

#11679
HairyMadDog1010

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killnoob wrote...

Auresta wrote...

killnoob wrote...


Ofc they wouldn't try to indoctrinate him when he has his finger on the button.
IT'd be too late anyway.

In case if you haven't noticed, Harbringer tries to kill him by shooting LASERS at him, to prevent him from reaching the beam.

Are you saying that after Shepard got knocked out he suddenly has a change of heart AGAIN and decide to indoctrinate him one last time?

Honestly, that'd be the worst writing I've ever seen in fiction if it happens to be true.




Can someone address this?


Yea, can someone address this, I'm interested.


Who knows? but harby could have easly finished off shep before he got to the transport beam. If he wanted to.

Modifié par HairyMadDog1010, 14 mars 2012 - 06:55 .


#11680
Fledgey

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https://twitter.com/...003461943926784 I uh. I don't know if they even knew what I was asking.

#11681
Goddy10

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I need to bring up something that hasn't been properly analyzed yet; Why do the facial scars left by Cerberus remain completely dormant for the entire game up until towards the ending? I thyink Cerberus has more to do with this theory then we're giving them credit for.

Those codes that are on the Normandy and the Citadel is another hint.

#11682
savionen

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killnoob wrote...

Ofc they wouldn't try to indoctrinate him when he has his finger on the button.
IT'd be too late anyway.

In case if you haven't noticed, Harbringer tries to kill him by shooting LASERS at him, to prevent him from reaching the beam.

Are you saying that after Shepard got knocked out he suddenly has a change of heart AGAIN and decide to indoctrinate him one last time?

Honestly, that'd be the worst writing I've ever seen in fiction if it happens to be true.


Harbinger's primary intention was always to preserve and indoctrinate Shepard, in ME2 at least. If Harbinger's hit was anywhere near Shepard shouldn't it have instantly killed him/her?

#11683
Erethrian

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kent80082006 wrote...

killnoob wrote...

And the theories continues.

You know, I'm starting to think Bioware is brilliant.

They've managed to create an ending that allows everyone to fill what they want into the blanks.

Seriously,

if you believe in the indoctrination theory/hallucination theory/whatever the **** theory, you have lost your right to complain about the ending because you've done exactly what bioware wants you to do.

Good job Bioware

Let's hope the endings to their next game remain similar to ME3 so it'll get everyone talking.


You have lost your right to complain?

You do know not everyone will whine like a little baby when something didn't go the way they wanted it to go, right?
You may complain all you want, heck you can even torch down their building if you're so filled with discontent that you so desperately want to convince everyone to protest with you.

But we're looking for something a bit more positive here, and I feel like you don't belong here with us.
It doesn't matter if we're wrong, we have nothing to lose, but doing this gives us hope and makes us feel better. We are absolutely not trying to preach this theory to anyone, and what we do here is not doing anyone any harm in any way, so I don't understand why you so desperately want to shut us up.

You're trying to convince us that what we're doing here is meaningless, but from my point of view we're doing something far more constructive and meaningful than what you're doing: whinning


I agree. Even if the theory was true, we're not forcing anyone to believe this.

Indoctrination makes sense to us. It doesn't to you ->(killnoob). That doesn't mean we're right or wrong. Not until BW say something about this.

Besides, if they release a "pre-ending" DLC I won't buy it, most of us won't buy it. We need answers, that's what we need. Let's discuss, leave the hate and rage behind. As kent80082006 said, we're giving us hope.

If later they say: Hey, this is the real ending, nothing more coming after that but pre-ending dlcs and mp dlcs, period.

Then, ok, I'll free my inner rage.

Modifié par Erethrian, 14 mars 2012 - 06:56 .


#11684
killnoob

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Fledgey wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Auresta wrote...

killnoob wrote...


Ofc they wouldn't try to indoctrinate him when he has his finger on the button.
IT'd be too late anyway.

In case if you haven't noticed, Harbringer tries to kill him by shooting LASERS at him, to prevent him from reaching the beam.

Are you saying that after Shepard got knocked out he suddenly has a change of heart AGAIN and decide to indoctrinate him one last time?

Honestly, that'd be the worst writing I've ever seen in fiction if it happens to be true.




Can someone address this?


Yea, can someone address this, I'm interested.

He never shoots directly at shepard, only at the other soldiers and vehicles charging the conduit.


So you're saying he's letting Shepard to reach the beam while killing everyone elses off?

But he accidentally hit him and he goes

Oh Shi-

Ah well. Might as well try to indoctrinate him now.

#11685
byne

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killnoob wrote...

StillOverrated wrote...

Some million people probably already brought this up (a hundred million times, I wager) but if the indoctrination theory is right, then this just makes everything worse.


Its not gonna be right because at this point, if Bioware comes out and say "Yeah The indoctrination theory is what we're going for,"

They will seriously make a bunch of people (inlcuding me) look like idiots.

They risk pissing off their fan base even more.

Pretty sure they're not dumb enough to do that.

Now BW,

Please don't prove me wrong :(


But hasnt most of your argument up to this point been based on Bioware being dumb enough to think the current endings were good endings?

What stops them from being dumb enough to ****** more people off?

#11686
Auresta

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Goddy10 wrote...

I need to bring up something that hasn't been properly analyzed yet; Why do the facial scars left by Cerberus remain completely dormant for the entire game up until towards the ending? I thyink Cerberus has more to do with this theory then we're giving them credit for.

Those codes that are on the Normandy and the Citadel is another hint.


Facials scars have been brought up. i don't konw twhe ragument surrounding it but Shepard's pretty beat up at the end. Facial scarring showing through isn't that big of a deal.

#11687
lex0r11

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killnoob wrote...

Auresta wrote...

killnoob wrote...


Ofc they wouldn't try to indoctrinate him when he has his finger on the button.
IT'd be too late anyway.

In case if you haven't noticed, Harbringer tries to kill him by shooting LASERS at him, to prevent him from reaching the beam.

Are you saying that after Shepard got knocked out he suddenly has a change of heart AGAIN and decide to indoctrinate him one last time?

Honestly, that'd be the worst writing I've ever seen in fiction if it happens to be true.




Can someone address this?


Yea, can someone address this, I'm interested.


hm, maybe the reaper thought everything was dead and the indoctrination is more like a desease that has been planted throughout the game, like someone else already pointed out, and doesn't need direct action from the reaper that was shooting. in addition, people mined some adio from joker how he is making bombingruns on a target and anderson responding how he saved the day. mabye that was a reason to change the approach.

#11688
Auresta

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killnoob wrote...

Fledgey wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Auresta wrote...

killnoob wrote...


Ofc they wouldn't try to indoctrinate him when he has his finger on the button.
IT'd be too late anyway.

In case if you haven't noticed, Harbringer tries to kill him by shooting LASERS at him, to prevent him from reaching the beam.

Are you saying that after Shepard got knocked out he suddenly has a change of heart AGAIN and decide to indoctrinate him one last time?

Honestly, that'd be the worst writing I've ever seen in fiction if it happens to be true.




Can someone address this?


Yea, can someone address this, I'm interested.

He never shoots directly at shepard, only at the other soldiers and vehicles charging the conduit.


So you're saying he's letting Shepard to reach the beam while killing everyone elses off?

But he accidentally hit him and he goes

Oh Shi-

Ah well. Might as well try to indoctrinate him now.




Harbinger's a reaper. I wouldn't put stupidity past him.

#11689
Fledgey

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killnoob wrote...

Fledgey wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Auresta wrote...

killnoob wrote...


Ofc they wouldn't try to indoctrinate him when he has his finger on the button.
IT'd be too late anyway.

In case if you haven't noticed, Harbringer tries to kill him by shooting LASERS at him, to prevent him from reaching the beam.

Are you saying that after Shepard got knocked out he suddenly has a change of heart AGAIN and decide to indoctrinate him one last time?

Honestly, that'd be the worst writing I've ever seen in fiction if it happens to be true.




Can someone address this?


Yea, can someone address this, I'm interested.

He never shoots directly at shepard, only at the other soldiers and vehicles charging the conduit.


So you're saying he's letting Shepard to reach the beam while killing everyone elses off?

But he accidentally hit him and he goes

Oh Shi-

Ah well. Might as well try to indoctrinate him now.



He takes out all the other resistance and then intentionally knocks shepard out with a well aimed shot. The fact that a laser should instantly kill you is evidence of this.

#11690
IronSabbath88

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Harbinger has made it perfectly clear he wants Shepard, for whatever reason. And why not? Shepard is the one to have brought down his race on more than one occasion. He is the biggest threat to the reapers. Why KILL him when they can try to gain a powerful ally?

#11691
savionen

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IronSabbath88 wrote...

Harbinger has made it perfectly clear he wants Shepard, for whatever reason. And why not? Shepard is the one to have brought down his race on more than one occasion. He is the biggest threat to the reapers. Why KILL him when they can try to gain a powerful ally?


Successfully indoctrinating Shepard would be like an "IWIN" button for the Reapers.

#11692
mooney6023

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 Wow, this thread really derailed.

Was the ending really a hallucination, partial recap of evidence:

Fact:

* There is a save file entry for "Lives to fight again" if you choose Destroy with 4000+ effective war assets.  Use GIBB save file editor to view this.   It's probably the most significant piece of inarguable evidence that further post "end" content is likely in DLC or sequel form.   see: svn(dot)gib(dot)me,  as much as I'll provide as posting a link to it is probably a forum policy violation.

Evidence that does not guarantee anything but is an attempt by the OP and others to analyze what may be hints and subtle forshadowing by the writers and development team:

* There are several inconsistencies with the space-god-reaper-kid at the beginning of the game.  He travels up the building way to quickly, Shepard is the only one to see him or acknowledge him, husks do not react to him, he makes eye contact with shepard from an absurd distance, and as someone pointed out recently, he has no shadow. 

* There is only three ways the god-reaper-child can appear to shepard as this boy from the beginning:
  • The "guardian" is interfacing with his mind directly and can create shepards reality in these scenes at the end.  There is quite a bit of circumstational evidence pointing to this like anderson's lead when moving through the ****ed up citadel that looks like past game environments, the 1m1 reversed images, magically appearing TIM, substantial difference in the design of the Citadel=Crucible connection point as seen earlier as they dock (if that even happened), and no "blue or other color" mass effect shielding to protect shep from vacuum.  I'm quite sure I've missed some.
  • The "guardian" is simply reading Shep's mind not directly effecting it, and appears as the child to be more approachable.
  • It's all a completly independent hallucination on Shep's part as he bleeds out under rubble in London.

* The normandy crash scene requires that the normandy some how make it to the Charon relay before the crucible is activated as it runs away from the battle on Earth.  Why did they run, what are they running from if shepard succeeded, etc.?

* The survivors shown after the Normandy crash are always the love interest, joker, and whomever you TALKED to the most during the game.   Note I said talked to, not brought with you on missions.  This appears to be Javik if you have the DLC and exhausted all conversation until the NPC's repeat themselves after every mission.  Not surprising, Javik seems to have the highest number of unique statements out of all the crew followed by Joker then EDI.  Note: if you choose the "Synthesis" ending EDI will be a survivor.

The point here is: why did Bioware bother with a a complex algorithm to decide who shows up when the Normandy crashes if it has no further meaning?  It's possibly meant to infer that the 2 people Shep was closest to plus Joker survive and is possibly his own wishful thinking fed by the god-reaper-child.  I mean Joker had to survive, he makes cool Hunt for Red October references in game.

* The destroy option is the option that is impacted the most by your previous choices in all 3 games ( via the war asset system and the requirement for 4000+ to get an extra scene showing shepard breathing and that entry in the save file showing he lives to fight again).

The point of this thread was never to provide some guarantee that Bioware was going to provide us with more. It's always possible that Bioware provided these clues to further fuel speculation that this is the answer to those that look.

I still find it likely that a post-end DLC or sequel will happen, not because of artistic greatness on Bioware's part, but because like Square-Enix with FFXIII-2, Bioware has completely bought into the money pot presented by serialization of their franchise via DLC. Why end a story with proper denouement and an epilogue when you can continue to feed the consumer more at further cost? This is where gaming is going just like the multi-player addition was more about the those $2 spectre packs than because it was a good idea.

I hope you enjoyed my wall of text, and regardless of any further content from Bioware perhaps you can take away from this something positive that allows you to enjoy replaying the games in this series you have already bought.

For those of you trolling this thread, I'm off to write some forum software that allows the OP or his designee's to permanently kick people from his thread. Thanks for the inspiration.

edit: bbcode bites as usual, can't get rid of the indentation.

Modifié par mooney6023, 14 mars 2012 - 07:03 .


#11693
Lurchibald

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Thread Derailed as far as I can tell... it's been 30 pages since I was last here and still all I'm seeing is either killnoob posting or people quoting and replying to killnoob... <_< 

#11694
lex0r11

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killnoob wrote...

StillOverrated wrote...

Some million people probably already brought this up (a hundred million times, I wager) but if the indoctrination theory is right, then this just makes everything worse.


Its not gonna be right because at this point, if Bioware comes out and say "Yeah The indoctrination theory is what we're going for,"

They will seriously make a bunch of people (inlcuding me) look like idiots.

They risk pissing off their fan base even more.

Pretty sure they're not dumb enough to do that.

Now BW,

Please don't prove me wrong :(


that's it?

dumb enough to prove you wrong? prove people wrong who believed that this was the actual ending? why not? if keeping the real ending back to slap the leak in the face was their plan all along, they should get credit for such a mind****.

#11695
StillOverrated

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killnoob wrote...

StillOverrated wrote...

Some million people probably already brought this up (a hundred million times, I wager) but if the indoctrination theory is right, then this just makes everything worse.


Its not gonna be right because at this point, if Bioware comes out and say "Yeah The indoctrination theory is what we're going for,"

They will seriously make a bunch of people (inlcuding me) look like idiots.

They risk pissing off their fan base even more.

Pretty sure they're not dumb enough to do that.

Now BW,

Please don't prove me wrong :(

Oh, don't worry. They'll make us ALL look like idiots when they eventually reveal that they sold us an incomplete game. :)

#11696
Getorex

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Golferguy758 wrote...

The people who ae using that interview really ned tostop. He's dodging the question because he and bioware still have tricks. Read jessic's twitter. Look beyond what is directly in front of you


Their "trick" is an EA "trick".  Instead of giving us a real ending and then providing nice DLC they sold us a defective product and the trick is to charge us for the fix: a DLC that corrects the bull**** ending.  That's your trick up their sleeve.

Not a very good trick and not one to garner love and support. 

Keep in mind that you had to pay for the first DLC with the Prothean in it.  Keep in mind that they claimed it was developed separately from the main game so wasn't ever part of the game.  Keep in mind that this has, in fact, been proven to be false and that it is possible to unlock this part of the full, actual game without doing the DLC pay game.  Keep in mind that they LIED in order to squeeze money from players.  I fully expect to see a REAL ending come out that costs money.  I fully expect that this REAL ending was originally part of the main game plan but that they decided to pull it to make a defective product and get more money from us to fix it.

#11697
Auresta

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Lurchibald wrote...

Thread Derailed as far as I can tell... it's been 30 pages since I was last here and still all I'm seeing is either killnoob posting or people quoting and replying to killnoob... <_< 


Killnoob is trying to contribute to the argument and theory by countering it. I appreciate it, imo.

#11698
byne

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Lurchibald wrote...

Thread Derailed as far as I can tell... it's been 30 pages since I was last here and still all I'm seeing is either killnoob posting or people quoting and replying to killnoob... <_< 


To be completely fair to killnoob (though why I am choosing to do so I dont really know), the title of the thread is 'Was the ending a hallucination?'

He claims it isnt.

Thats not really derailing the thread.

#11699
WizenSlinky0

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TIM doesn't magically get there. Hackett very clearly explains that TIM ran to the citadel and warned the reapers you were coming. Considering he's indoctrinated it's pretty obvious he would still be there.

#11700
galaxy366

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About the people saying that the people are stranded at Earth when the Relays blow up. Do know if you pick the destroy but keep the humans alive and only kill the Reapers then .. well, all the remaining soldiers and scientist should just investigate the Reaper body's? extract the date from there AI and find the solution to rebuild the Relays.