57139 réponses à ce sujet

[killnoob]

lex0r11 wrote...


let me ask you this, do you consider yourself a fan of this franchise? why is this bad?
if they don't have a plan in place, then this is considered feedback in form of ideas, the whole board is packed with it. but if they have a plan, this is just an idea how it could work and how they might try to do it. and as far as i can remember, this is how dlc can actually be implemented in a good way. because the whole thing was a hallucination.

A fan of the franchise would compare this muck of an ending to every other endings in the previous series, and see how they're trying to excuse themselves from lazy writing. It's the same reason why they PHOTOSHOPED Tali's face from a stock photo instead of actually developing a good enough interpetation of what is.

They simply got buggered by EA deadlines and decided an open ending would be best because they know no matter how many people see through their bull****, some fan will always create some conspiracy theory to fix it for them, no matter how many plotholes there are in the orignial and how many plotholes there are in the conspiracy theory.

And kudos to them

It's turned out pretty damn well so far.

[kent80082006]

killnoob wrote...

Niemack Saarinen wrote...


If you think about prior to that - Shep defending the Thanix Missles - that reaper is basically ontop of you and shooting all around you,  if he really wanted to kill you all he had to do was shoot the missles and blow your ass up,  i somehow think that reaper could have obliterated me if it wanted. But instead? it only puts up a defensive fight the instant you launch the last missles - seemed too fishy, too easy.

So you're basically saying that reaper deliberately give Shepard a chance to destroy them?

OR

Is it a lot easier to believe that they simply consider Shepar insignificant at this point and just blind shootingand trying to kill everything that moves?

The reapers view Shepherd as a threat if he could gather a high EMS, which is why the god child say "wake up" in a mellow tone, trying to talk him into indoctrination and possess his powers

The reapers view Shepherd as expandable if he could only gather a low EMS, which is why the god child say "why are you here" in a intimidating and angry tone, because they didn't expect him there

Modifié par kent80082006, 14 mars 2012 - 07:15 .

[Innosint]

Here is the problem I have with the
indoctrination theory. While it is nice to believe Bioware has not completely
up the ending for the ME series. it still doesn't deliver what they promised,
difference endings depends on player choices. In the end, we are left with
three similar ending, with difference color light shows, and few seconds of
scene difference when the explosion hits earth. Unlike ME2, in which your crew
and squad mate died or lived depends on your choices. All you see is a short
cut scene presenting each member of the galaxy that you have helped out
presented in battle. (Not ever everyone of them) Then the battle continues,
with the battle unchanged regardless of their participation.
This is still not what Bioware has promised, this is not a game in which the player's choice matters
at the end.

 

So assume Shepard has being indoctrinated
when the beam hits. What now? Assume you are physically there on the Citadel,
why does Shepard/your choice even matters at the end? It is very possible that
at the end, you are just standing in front of a big red button with
"galactic genocide" written on top of it. And the Reaper/TIM, is
trying to convinced you to press the button via giving you the illusion of
having three choices. All Shepard did was convincing himself that he saved
galaxy, like we players trying to convince our self maybe the ending isn't
completely unreasonable.

 

ok, now let's assume Shepard is still on
the ground, he never made it to the Citadel, the whole ending sequence was a
dream. Then what happens from this point. We played to the end of the game, but
in reality (of the game) the Reaper has not been defeated. The war is still
going on with Shepard in the rubble, there is no closure to this story. Nothing,
the whole ME3 is a man's desperate attempt to save the galaxy, and it ends with
player doesn't even know whether he is alive or not, and whether the war has
ended or not.

 

So sure, assume this is what the developer
has intended, then how is this making anything better? Players were promised
the ending of a trilogy, yet, we are not even sure if the story has actually
ended. If they have planned to release DLC to finish the game by using the
indoctrination ending, then I can promise you, Bioware won't even sees a penny
from me ever again, and I am sure i am not the only one felt that way.

 

If you accept Shepard is indeed
indoctrinated since the beginning of the game, then you are willing to accept
the theory that throughout the whole game, a game that focus on the free will.
The Free will of Geth, of sentinel beings not govern by Reaper, the free will of
players to set, shape, and mold the ME universe has all but a fabricated lie.
Shepard does not have free will, everything he does and has done are under
Reaper's influence. There was never really any hope to begin with, since your
leaders were controlled by the ReaPer since the very beginning. So while ME1
and ME2 has being trying to tell players and everyone in the game that there is
always hope even in the most desperate times, ME3 tells you that hope does not
exist when you confront a more power being than you.

I guess that will be a great ending to the
game as well, since we, the players were given the illusion of choice by
Bioware, but then gets slap around at the end and told us none of what we have
expected are unrealistic, and any hope of a better ending is futile.

Modifié par Innosint, 14 mars 2012 - 07:18 .

[NotCras]

ok this is just a shot in the dark, and to be honest I cant remember if im right or not, but Bioware has never kept an auto-save for us before the big battle have they? If thats true, maybe theres something out there that would warrant a playthrough of the final battle again? its just a thought.

[BeardedPuma]

El_Spiko wrote...

 Sorry if I'm repeating anything already said, I haven't had time to read the bajillion pages of this thread.

I'm totally on board with the indoctrination theory. A couple things I didn't see mentioned in the Thesis at the beginning.

1m1 - I saw this posted elsewhere on the forum: 

1M1 - i think that's a more inconspicuous way of writing this 1*(M^(-1))

(the formula is used in optics, it actually stands for inverse of focal length, or dioptry,
or convergence...

In Logic, convergence is also the notion that a sequence of transformations come to the same conclusion, no matter what order they are performed in... 

Especially considering the mirroring of 1m1 on the walkway to TIM and on top of the citadel with the child, this makes a lot of sense.

Something that's not so much evidence but that does support the ID theory is Shepherd being space Jesus. There's countless parallels throughout the game, and at the end Shep is looking at having to sacrifice himself on the crucible to save everyone else. If his story were to parallel Christ's in the Last Temptation of Christ, then the end sequence is a pretty good reimagining of that. We have the devil (harbinger) taking the form of a guardian angel child (our ghost child) that speaks in a multi-layered voice that tries to convince Jesus to make a choice that is totally counter-intuitive to the entire narrative of the story and his life up until that point. With so many allusions to Shepherd being space Jesus (hell, even look at his name) it seems like more than coincidence that there are many parallels between ME3's ending and the LToC.

That is an indepth analysis. Nice job. 

[Elenterx]

I'm starting to lose hope right now

[Auresta]

MEcamilla wrote...

There is also one more thing...My canon Shep, on my 1st playtrough i chose the control option...Here it is: halfway on the platform, i changed my mind and tried to go back but I COULDNT!!!!!that confirms the indoctrination theory!!!

It's an interesting piece of evidence, but it confirms nothing. Everything at this point is speculation. Please don't jump to conclusions. However, thank you for bringing this up!

[Smiley556]

Innosint wrote...


Here is the problem I have with the
indoctrination theory. While it is nice to believe Bioware has not completely
up the ending for the ME series. it still doesn't deliver what they promised,
difference endings depends on player choices. In the end, we are left with
three similar ending, with difference color light shows, and few seconds of
scene difference when the explosion hits earth. Unlike ME2, in which your crew
and squad mate died or lived depends on your choices. All you see is a short
cut scene presenting each member of the galaxy that you have helped out
presented in battle. (Not ever everyone of them) Then the battle continues,
with the battle unchanged regardless of their participation. This was not what
Bioware has promised, this is not a game in which the player's choice matters
at the end.

 

So assume Shepard has being indoctrinated
when the beam hits. What now? Assume you are physically there on the Citadel,
why does Shepard/your choice even matters at the end? It is very possible that
at the end, you are just standing in front of a big red button with
"galactic genocide" written on top of it. And the Reaper/TIM, is
trying to convinced you to press the button via giving you the illusion of
having three choices. All Shepard did was convincing himself that he saved
galaxy, like we players trying to convince our self maybe the ending isn't
completely unreasonable.

 

ok, now let's assume Shepard is still on
the ground, he never made it to the Citadel, the whole ending sequence was a
dream. Then what happens from this point. We played to the end of the game, but
in reality (of the game) the Reaper has not been defeated. The war is still
going on with Shepard in the rubble, there is no closure to this story. Nothing,
the whole ME3 is a man's desperate attempt to save the galaxy, and it ends with
player doesn't even know whether he is alive or not, and whether the war has
ended or not.

 

So sure, assume this is what the developer
has intended, then how is this making anything better? Players were promised
the ending of a trilogy, yet, we are not even sure if the story has actually
ended. If they have planned to release DLC to finish the game by using the
indoctrination ending, then I can promise you, Bioware won't even sees a penny
from me ever again, and I am sure i am not the only one felt that way.

 

If you accept Shepard is indeed
indoctrinated since the beginning of the game, then you are willing to accept
the theory that throughout the whole game, a game that focus on the free will.
The Free will of Geth, of sentinel beings not govern by Reaper, the free will of
players to set, shape, and mold the ME universe has all but a fabricated lie.
Shepard does not have free will, everything he does and has done are under
Reaper's influence. There was never really any hope to begin with, since your
leaders were controlled by the leader since the very beginning. So while ME1
and ME2 has being trying to tell players and everyone in the game that there is
always hope even in the most desperate times, ME3 tells you that hope does not
exist when you confront a more power being than you.

I guess that will be a great ending to the
game as well, since we, the players were given the illusion of choice by
Bioware, but then gets slap around at the end and told us none of what we have
expected are unrealistic, and any hope of a better ending is futile.

We are trying to EXPLAIN the ending, not make it HAPPIER. Neither this theory nor the god kid space magic theory live up to biowares promises. So pointing out that it goves no closure does Nothing to discredit the Hallucination, the idea that it was all real and space magic happened doesnt give closure either.

[killnoob]

LenabotSE wrote...


The game make special effort (during the Lawson mission) to point out that adrenaline is the most useful tool the Reapers have for amplifying and enhancing their indoctrination efforts in organics.  Few things pump adrenaline through you faster than almost getting hit with an alien deathray.  Harbinger has always wanted Shepard alive.

Oh wow.

You have guts I'll give you that.

So he's shooting at Shepard with deathray and REALLY REALLY wants him alive.

But he doesn't wants him alive ENOUGH to be content shooting him with death ray.

And also, we really dont see our character run faster, nor do we hear any heart pumping.

We just run.

If this is their intention they would give you some adreline effect while your running.

Seriously. You are overreaching things.

[Auresta]

NotCras wrote...

ok this is just a shot in the dark, and to be honest I cant remember if im right or not, but Bioware has never kept an auto-save for us before the big battle have they? If thats true, maybe theres something out there that would warrant a playthrough of the final battle again? its just a thought.

There's an autosave before doing the final battle in ME2, iirc. I'm not looking too deeply into the save file, honestly.

[AM94]

As much as id like to believe the indoctrination theory, they just recently did an interview with Hudson where he made no announcements about the ending and/or DLC controversy likely because(similar to politicians) he had no answer to the question and was just trying to avoid it to not make himself look like an idiot. The fact that theyre saying that they like the feedback means they know they ****ed up on the ending with no ulterior motives and are either looking to fix the problem through a costly DLC or are just trying to dismiss it long enough for people to stop caring or give up. I feel like the bearer of bad news and i would love it if i was wrong but things arent looking good unfortunately.

Modifié par AM94, 14 mars 2012 - 07:20 .

[Getorex]

This is all nice and so on, this theorizing and desperate hoping that the end will turn out not to be the end but the reality is I played ME3 ONCE and stopped just short of getting to the ****ed up Stanley Kubrick LSD dream sequence making one ending with different possible colors. I started over and this time have played some MP (bull**** that you have to play MP to get decent readiness - I have family who play this game who NEVER do MP and hate MP so they're screwed?). I will play it more sedately to bid time, to see if ANY desperate theory about a real ending soon to be coming is true. If nothing comes along then I will play to near the end, stop short of the actual end, turn off the game and never play 1, 2, or 3 again because the ending of 3 ruins the playing of 1 and 2. All the investment of my imagination, time, and even love into the story, the idea, the characters is shot to hell because of the ending of 3. ME 3 is the pin that popped the happy balloon that WAS my interest in the entire ME universe. From what I read on Youtube, this sentiment is not at all unique. I've lost any interest in the movie as well.

I'll go back to a universe that make sense and doesn't betray the player in the end: Deus Ex.

[Monochrome Wench]

The scaring means nothing. In ME2 they were caused by your skin rejecting your cybernetic implants. If you had a calm mental state they got better by themselves. If you got the medi upgrade the scars were healed for you.

In ME3 if you didn't get the medi upgrade you will still get scars if your renegade value and renegade:paragon ratio gets high enough. When you are extremely hurt in the ending the scars also show because your skin is damaged.

Incidently for my character I started the game with no scaring. It got worse as my renegade score increased. Then towards the end of the game they get slightly better as i apparently started choosing more paragon choices, The scaring in the ending was the same as it was just before the ending, which is may be just a coincidence. I am most curious what a pure renegades scares look like in the ending. Does everyone have the same scars, or do people with them keep them, and people without gain some.

[killnoob]

Smiley556 wrote...


We are trying to EXPLAIN the ending, not make it HAPPIER. Neither this theory nor the god kid space magic theory live up to biowares promises. So pointing out that it goves no closure does Nothing to discredit the Hallucination, the idea that it was all real and space magic happened doesnt give closure either.

And why oh why are you trying to explain the ending?

That's not your job, that's the storyteller's job.

Now if ME Franchise has been some kind of post modernism game like LIMBO and every installement has ended with some kind of cliffhanger/mindrape/twist, feel free to explain this one away.

But ME Franchise has not.

Modifié par killnoob, 14 mars 2012 - 07:23 .

[Mr.Burke]

I don't like people messing with my head so they can get to my wallet. It happens enough to me as it is...

[Hurricane Brad]

killnoob wrote...

Hurricane Brad wrote...

killnoob wrote...

Right, and spending three games trying to do that wasn't enough.
They have to keep trying until the very end, where Shepard actually has a chance to destroy every reapers in existence.

but because they're dumb machines they' cant reason:

Oh let's just try one more time before he blows us up if that doesn't work we'll kill him.
After he blows us up.

What exactly are you not understanding here?  According to the theory (or at least my interpretation of it) the reapers are not at risk of blowing up, because it's not actually happening.  Shepard is still unconscious in the pile of rubble near the beam in London.  HE IS NOT ON THE CITADEL.  They would not risk trying to indoctrinate him if he had his finger on the button, so to speak.  Because he is vulnerable and not an immediate threat to them, Harbinger figures "why the hell not" and makes an attempt to indoctrinate him.  Harbinger has always had a personal interest in taking Shepard alive if possible, so that's why he doesn't just finish him off.

Ofc they wouldn't try to indoctrinate him when he has his finger on the button.
IT'd be too late anyway.

In case if you haven't noticed, Harbringer tries to kill him by shooting LASERS at him, to prevent him from reaching the beam.

Are you saying that after Shepard got knocked out he suddenly has a change of heart AGAIN and decide to indoctrinate him one last time?

Honestly, that'd be the worst writing I've ever seen in fiction if it happens to be true.


Also

Read the highlighted part.

And gimme one reason why I should take your interpetation as fact.

Harbinger tried to kill him when he was rushing the beam because he was a threat.  Just because he would prefer to take Shepard alive doesn't mean he would risk letting his most dangerous foe get to the superweapon that could potentially defeat the reapers.  I see no reason why he wouldn't make an indoctrination attempt while Shepard is unconscious as Shepard is no longer a threat and his unconscious mind should be more vulnerable.  It would be safer to just kill him, but I'm sure Harbinger is more than a little overconfident since Shepard is seemingly helpless.  For whatever reason he has always wanted Shepard alive if possible.  Also as far as we know Shepard has never before faced an indoctrination attempt, he has never been shown to struggle with this previously so I don't know what you mean by Harbinger attempting it "one last time."

I didn't say you should take my interpretation as fact, it is just a theory afterall.  We won't know if it's true or not until Bioware actually says something about it or releases new ending content.  Look at the evidence and draw your own conclusions, there is a lot of it that suggests that what happens to Shepard after the reaper beam is not reality.

If you are going to argue against the theory however you should at least understand the basics of it.  As far as I've seen, everybody in this thread who agrees at all with the indoctrination theory rejects the scene with the catalyst kid as being part of the indoctrination attempt.  It is in Shepard's head and if he attempts to destroy the reapers in his head it obviously doesn't mean they are destroyed in reality.  It just means that he has fought off the indoctrination attempt, which is why it shows him draw breath while lying in the rubble in London.  He can then hopefully get up and attempt to complete his mission. 

Modifié par Hurricane Brad, 14 mars 2012 - 07:53 .

[StillOverrated]

Getorex wrote...

StillOverrated wrote...

killnoob wrote...

StillOverrated wrote...

Some million people probably already brought this up (a hundred million times, I wager) but if the indoctrination theory is right, then this just makes everything worse.

Its not gonna be right because at this point, if Bioware comes out and say "Yeah The indoctrination theory is what we're going for,"

They will seriously make a bunch of people (inlcuding me) look like idiots.

They risk pissing off their fan base even more.

Pretty sure they're not dumb enough to do that.

Now BW,

Please don't prove me wrong

Oh, don't worry. They'll make us ALL look like idiots when they eventually reveal that they sold us an incomplete game.

Ummm.  No.  They have lost good will an will NOT gain it back when they CHARGE for the unlock to make the game complete.  

I seriously doubt that there's much they can do for many who, with the mere passage of 10 minutes at the end of the game lost ALL interest and heart for the entire ME franchise.  

If they DON'T charge for the fix then tney will regain some of these people but if they charge for it, they're royally ****ed.

Yeah, not to rain on anyone's parade or anything but... EA.
And didn't people complain about Capcom's similar practices *coughUltimate Marvel Vs. Capcomcough*, and yet they don't seem to stop?
What's stopping EA from taking some cues from Capcom? Not that they haven't already. From Ashes, anyone?

[noobcannon]

killnoob wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...


let me ask you this, do you consider yourself a fan of this franchise? why is this bad?
if they don't have a plan in place, then this is considered feedback in form of ideas, the whole board is packed with it. but if they have a plan, this is just an idea how it could work and how they might try to do it. and as far as i can remember, this is how dlc can actually be implemented in a good way. because the whole thing was a hallucination.

A fan of the franchise would compare this muck of an ending to every other endings in the previous series, and see how they're trying to excuse themselves from lazy writing. It's the same reason why they PHOTOSHOPED Tali's face from a stock photo instead of actually developing a good enough interpetation of what is.

They simply got buggered by EA deadlines and decided an open ending would be best because they know no matter how many people see through their bull****, some fan will always create some conspiracy theory to fix it for them, no matter how many plotholes there are in the orignial and how many plotholes there are in the conspiracy theory.

And kudos to them

It's turned out pretty damn well so far.

i don't like how they handled tali's face at all, but more than it being lazy i think it was a case of them giving into fans when they shouldn't have. kinda like "you're not suppose to see her face! shut up!... ugh fine... you want to see her face? here. now shut up." but that's just my two cents.

also as for the writing being lazy, i only see it that way if this is indeed the end. however if the indoctrination theory proves to be true, and they release a FREE ending in the very near future that makes sense of everything we've been speculating, then i think the writing is brilliant. for me it sold the illusion of indoctrination better than i couldv'e ever imagined, whether they intended to or not. again just my two cents.

[Innosint]

Smiley556 wrote...


We are trying to EXPLAIN the ending, not make it HAPPIER. Neither this theory nor the god kid space magic theory live up to biowares promises. So pointing out that it goves no closure does Nothing to discredit the Hallucination, the idea that it was all real and space magic happened doesnt give closure either.

Did i ever mention in my thread that we should get a happier ending? no, no I did not.
I am pointing out that even if the indoctrination theory is true, it still give NO closure to the story.
Nothing you ever do in this game matters, because the reality can be anything but what the game has presented to us.

[lex0r11]

killnoob wrote...

LenabotSE wrote...


The game make special effort (during the Lawson mission) to point out that adrenaline is the most useful tool the Reapers have for amplifying and enhancing their indoctrination efforts in organics.  Few things pump adrenaline through you faster than almost getting hit with an alien deathray.  Harbinger has always wanted Shepard alive.

Oh wow.

You have guts I'll give you that.

So he's shooting at Shepard with deathray and REALLY REALLY wants him alive.

But he doesn't wants him alive ENOUGH to be content shooting him with death ray.

And also, we really dont see our character run faster, nor do we hear any heart pumping.

We just run.

If this is their intention they would give you some adreline effect while your running.

Seriously. You are overreaching things.

i think everyone is overreaching at this point, you included killnoob. i know it's crazy to find meaning in every sec of the game. it is just as crazy to demand visual or verbal base for everything. like visualizing adrenaline. :/

[killnoob]

noobcannon wrote...

killnoob wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...


let me ask you this, do you consider yourself a fan of this franchise? why is this bad?
if they don't have a plan in place, then this is considered feedback in form of ideas, the whole board is packed with it. but if they have a plan, this is just an idea how it could work and how they might try to do it. and as far as i can remember, this is how dlc can actually be implemented in a good way. because the whole thing was a hallucination.

A fan of the franchise would compare this muck of an ending to every other endings in the previous series, and see how they're trying to excuse themselves from lazy writing. It's the same reason why they PHOTOSHOPED Tali's face from a stock photo instead of actually developing a good enough interpetation of what is.

They simply got buggered by EA deadlines and decided an open ending would be best because they know no matter how many people see through their bull****, some fan will always create some conspiracy theory to fix it for them, no matter how many plotholes there are in the orignial and how many plotholes there are in the conspiracy theory.

And kudos to them

It's turned out pretty damn well so far.

i don't like how they handled tali's face at all, but more than it being lazy i think it was a case of them giving into fans when they shouldn't have. kinda like "you're not suppose to see her face! shut up!... ugh fine... you want to see her face? here. now shut up." but that's just my two cents.

also as for the writing being lazy, i only see it that way if this is indeed the end. however if the indoctrination theory proves to be true, and they release a FREE ending in the very near future that makes sense of everything we've been speculating, then i think the writing is brilliant. for me it sold the illusion of indoctrination better than i couldv'e ever imagined, whether they intended to or not. again just my two cents.

THat's another point I've been telling people, but as that's not relevant to the topic I'll just say

'you're completely right they should not have given tali a face just as they should not have let cyber space child mouth off the way he did"

Modifié par killnoob, 14 mars 2012 - 07:25 .

[BlackDragonBane]

Many of us have moved over to a calmer and controlled environment for open theorycrafting discussion. If you're tired of repeating yourself, fighting in point-less arguments, and dealing with the trolls infecting the thread, we have a new home base, completely troll free and friendly towards all theorists and fans.

PM me to be directed to this theorycrafting haven.

[Merchant2006]

Go to hell BioWare

[FRancium]

never had scars until the last scene (default male shep, almost pure paragon), was wondering about that

[killnoob]

lex0r11 wrote...


i think everyone is overreaching at this point, you included killnoob. i know it's crazy to find meaning in every sec of the game. it is just as crazy to demand visual or verbal base for everything. like visualizing adrenaline. :/

erm... sorry mate, but its not.

Soliders have a skill called Adrenline rush.

If they apply that effect to the scene, then that explaination would make sense.